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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On January 09 2024 23:35 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2024 22:40 WombaT wrote:On January 09 2024 06:51 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2024 04:46 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 09 2024 01:04 JimmiC wrote:On January 08 2024 17:16 WombaT wrote:On January 08 2024 03:10 JimmiC wrote:On January 08 2024 02:42 Severedevil wrote:On January 07 2024 16:13 JimmiC wrote:On January 07 2024 13:41 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: [quote] Kinda hard to see Palestinians assimilating into Congolese society too well.Being a different race and not speaking the language in a place like that, Don't see it working out.
Just a case of the Congo wanting some cash and Israel wanting these people out pronto so they can settle the land.
[quote] Also should note the vast majority of the 2 million affected are innocent civilians.Obviously Israels actions against them may cause them to become radicalised and anti-semitic (or moreso).Jews living overseas in countries these folks are forcefully relocated to should take note. You accidentally said the quiet part out loud again. That's your takeaway? Palestinians aren't from the fucking Congo, it's not even nearby. There's no connection at all. It's like if the U.S. decided to annex Mexico and exile Mexicans to the Congo. Yes my take away from Nettles post is that he says race is the number 1 reason it won’t work. This shouldn’t be shocking for anyone who’s read nettles posts over the years. Obviously forced migration is a terrible idea for any large group to anywhere. My other take away is that when it comes to this topic many people who profess to deeply care about certain values turn it off or ignore them from people and groups they consider allies against Israel. I mean he gave equal weighting in that one sentence to race and language barriers, and one could assume he also meant general cultural differences although the man himself didn’t write that. Who are the people and what values are they ostensibly ‘turning off’ when it comes to this topic? Sometimes people will agree on something even if they’re at loggerheads on almost every other issue of the day. Guaranteed on other threads no one would have read it the way you and a bunch of others have given Nettles history. The dog pile would have been all over it, but that is saved for people who don’t hate Isreal strong enough on this thread. It’s crazy. Checkmate libtards 😎 Kind of, what a disappointment so many people have been. I mistakenly thought many people on here critically thought and had certain values. Turns out many just rage at wherever they are told. I mean you’re welcome to continue your truly titanic levels of hubris in the thread if you fancy, doesn’t mean other people have to go with it. For someone pontificating about the benefits of unconscious bias training, the only thing you apparently picked up was how to recognise the bias of others. Absolute insulting nonsense Stop responding to me please, or at least expect me to stop responding to you. I can’t handle the constancy of your feelings getting hurt by things I write not about you and then future apologies. However, maybe ask yourself why you always think they are about you, maybe in fact they are true for you, only you know and your reaction screams something. Probably because you speak in a very vague sweeping way that you claim others do to your chagrin.
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On January 09 2024 22:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2024 21:19 Magic Powers wrote:On January 09 2024 20:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 09 2024 19:36 Magic Powers wrote:On January 09 2024 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 09 2024 19:07 Magic Powers wrote: While the threat of an escalation increases every day, Israel has the option to withdraw all troops from Gaza and stop the bombardment. I don't think anyone can still reasonably argue that Israel is just "defending itself". The continuation of this war is threatening Israel's existence far more than a ceasefire could. Biden could force their hand if he wasn't busy circumventing congress to send them more weapons to massacre more Palestinians. Hell, Biden could just stop vetoing calls for ceasefires through the UN and that'd send a pretty clear message. But he's an avowed Zionist, so I won't be holding my breath for him to stop acting like one. I'm not doubting your words, and I'm not up to date on Biden's more recent decisions. But I'm reading US congress vetoed a ceasefire, Biden himself did not. Edit: I'm also reading it was Blinken, not Biden, who most recently rushed arms to Israel and circumvented congress. And on December 8th it was also the State Department (led by Blinken) which did the same. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/08/politics/state-department-congress-tank-munitions-sale/index.htmlhttps://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/29/politics/biden-congress-israel-military-aid/index.html I don't know what you think they mean in the headline by " Biden admin again bypasses Congress to sell military equipment to Israel"? It means Biden via Blinken. It's basically the same thing for the US vetoing the ceasefire resolution (Congress doesn't have a veto vote at the UN). No, "Biden admin" doesn't mean Biden himself was involved. He doesn't even get mentioned. " Secretary of State Antony Blinken informed Congress that he has made an emergency determination to immediately approve the transfer of “155mm ancillary items including fuzes, charges, and primers that make 155mm shells functional,” a State Department spokesperson said Friday." The State Department is led by Blinken, not Biden. Edit: Furthermore we have to ask the question why there's a need for Blinken to circumvent congress considering they vetoed a ceasefire. There are a few things that don't quite add up, so I think something's going on behind the scenes that we as observers don't understand. Maybe the confusion is that you don't know Blinken and the State Department are under the executive branch in the US?
I'm aware of that, but Blinken is not just Biden's lap dog. Biden can overturn Blinken's decisions, but he can't just make him do anything. This was Blinken's decision, and Biden chose not to overturn it. That's what Biden did. It wasn't something Biden willfully enacted and Blinken begrudgingly accepted. Chances are that Biden has to toe the line, he can't just instantly cut military ties with Israel unless he has significant support for such a decision.
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On January 10 2024 01:14 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 00:01 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 09 2024 23:35 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2024 22:40 WombaT wrote:On January 09 2024 06:51 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2024 04:46 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 09 2024 01:04 JimmiC wrote:On January 08 2024 17:16 WombaT wrote:On January 08 2024 03:10 JimmiC wrote:On January 08 2024 02:42 Severedevil wrote: [quote] That's your takeaway? Palestinians aren't from the fucking Congo, it's not even nearby. There's no connection at all. It's like if the U.S. decided to annex Mexico and exile Mexicans to the Congo. Yes my take away from Nettles post is that he says race is the number 1 reason it won’t work. This shouldn’t be shocking for anyone who’s read nettles posts over the years. Obviously forced migration is a terrible idea for any large group to anywhere. My other take away is that when it comes to this topic many people who profess to deeply care about certain values turn it off or ignore them from people and groups they consider allies against Israel. I mean he gave equal weighting in that one sentence to race and language barriers, and one could assume he also meant general cultural differences although the man himself didn’t write that. Who are the people and what values are they ostensibly ‘turning off’ when it comes to this topic? Sometimes people will agree on something even if they’re at loggerheads on almost every other issue of the day. Guaranteed on other threads no one would have read it the way you and a bunch of others have given Nettles history. The dog pile would have been all over it, but that is saved for people who don’t hate Isreal strong enough on this thread. It’s crazy. Checkmate libtards 😎 Kind of, what a disappointment so many people have been. I mistakenly thought many people on here critically thought and had certain values. Turns out many just rage at wherever they are told. I mean you’re welcome to continue your truly titanic levels of hubris in the thread if you fancy, doesn’t mean other people have to go with it. For someone pontificating about the benefits of unconscious bias training, the only thing you apparently picked up was how to recognise the bias of others. Absolute insulting nonsense Stop responding to me please, or at least expect me to stop responding to you. I can’t handle the constancy of your feelings getting hurt by things I write not about you and then future apologies. However, maybe ask yourself why you always think they are about you, maybe in fact they are true for you, only you know and your reaction screams something. Probably because you speak in a very vague sweeping way that you claim others do to your chagrin. Could be, I could be more specific. The problem with that is that is that what others say I get banned for. Not to mention if I was agreeing with the Israel rage I could get away with saying anything. Here is the thing if you are person who agrees with our far right nettles that the problem is race and language in moving a group of people, you better not be mad at him or the others who give the Donald the benefit of the doubt when he says things like, there are good people on both sides, you better also give him the benefit of the doubt to the extreme. The reality with this situation is that the “enemy” or big problem has nothing to do with race or language, it is that forceful removal of people is horrible. And everyone is only believing this as a real thought because they have already decided Israel is evil. The actual evil is religious orthodoxy, extremism, zealots. These are people on both sides of the borders that believe god has given them the right to kill and worse people who do not believe exactly the same thing as them about “god”.
While using the word "race" is controversial, I don't think it's controversial in the slightest, that one of the reasons shipping 2million Palestinians to Congo is going to give problems is because they look, act and think differently to the current congolese, and the majority will probably want to continue looking, acting, and thinking like Palestinians, which is going to lead to conflict with local Congolese who would prefer they adopt local customs.
Calling it "race" may not be right, but when has mass migration not led to local problems due to difficult integration with the locals?
And obviously there is a hell of a lot more wrong with that as a "solution" than just the fact that Palestinians may have some problems integrating in Congolese society.
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Brief suspension of my no longer responding to JimmiC (because this is just a ridiculous insinuation).
I decided to ignore Nettles' race remark only because it was such a dumb thing to say on his part that I felt it wasn't even worth acknowledging that he ever said it. I don't silently agree with anyone just because I don't respond to them. Absurd.
Please continue.
Suspension over.
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On January 10 2024 02:38 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 01:28 Acrofales wrote:On January 10 2024 01:14 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 00:01 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 09 2024 23:35 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2024 22:40 WombaT wrote:On January 09 2024 06:51 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2024 04:46 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 09 2024 01:04 JimmiC wrote:On January 08 2024 17:16 WombaT wrote: [quote] I mean he gave equal weighting in that one sentence to race and language barriers, and one could assume he also meant general cultural differences although the man himself didn’t write that.
Who are the people and what values are they ostensibly ‘turning off’ when it comes to this topic? Sometimes people will agree on something even if they’re at loggerheads on almost every other issue of the day. Guaranteed on other threads no one would have read it the way you and a bunch of others have given Nettles history. The dog pile would have been all over it, but that is saved for people who don’t hate Isreal strong enough on this thread. It’s crazy. Checkmate libtards 😎 Kind of, what a disappointment so many people have been. I mistakenly thought many people on here critically thought and had certain values. Turns out many just rage at wherever they are told. I mean you’re welcome to continue your truly titanic levels of hubris in the thread if you fancy, doesn’t mean other people have to go with it. For someone pontificating about the benefits of unconscious bias training, the only thing you apparently picked up was how to recognise the bias of others. Absolute insulting nonsense Stop responding to me please, or at least expect me to stop responding to you. I can’t handle the constancy of your feelings getting hurt by things I write not about you and then future apologies. However, maybe ask yourself why you always think they are about you, maybe in fact they are true for you, only you know and your reaction screams something. Probably because you speak in a very vague sweeping way that you claim others do to your chagrin. Could be, I could be more specific. The problem with that is that is that what others say I get banned for. Not to mention if I was agreeing with the Israel rage I could get away with saying anything. Here is the thing if you are person who agrees with our far right nettles that the problem is race and language in moving a group of people, you better not be mad at him or the others who give the Donald the benefit of the doubt when he says things like, there are good people on both sides, you better also give him the benefit of the doubt to the extreme. The reality with this situation is that the “enemy” or big problem has nothing to do with race or language, it is that forceful removal of people is horrible. And everyone is only believing this as a real thought because they have already decided Israel is evil. The actual evil is religious orthodoxy, extremism, zealots. These are people on both sides of the borders that believe god has given them the right to kill and worse people who do not believe exactly the same thing as them about “god”. While using the word "race" is controversial, I don't think it's controversial in the slightest, that one of the reasons shipping 2million Palestinians to Congo is going to give problems is because they look, act and think differently to the current congolese, and the majority will probably want to continue looking, acting, and thinking like Palestinians, which is going to lead to conflict with local Congolese who would prefer they adopt local customs. Calling it "race" may not be right, but when has mass migration not led to local problems due to difficult integration with the locals? And obviously there is a hell of a lot more wrong with that as a "solution" than just the fact that Palestinians may have some problems integrating in Congolese society. Totally agree with your last paragraph. Using race as the first reasoning is wrong. No one wants to accept a bunch of religious zealots. Many countries can successfully integrate people of all races. If Nettles, our furthest right poster who has a long history of this type of thing had posted that on the US pol thread about a different group the reaction would have been completely different. I’m not sure if he did the race thing on purpose to see if people actually secretly agreed with him, or if it is just so normal for him he didn’t think about it. But it was not right and that no one else called him out about it and worse people are agreeing with him is awful. Dude you keep trying to act like a victim and act like you actually care about Palestinians and then say shit like this.
You had me in the first sentence, had me thinking you were going to reiterate that the very notion of a mass exodus is fucked, but nah.
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On January 10 2024 04:24 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 03:13 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 02:38 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 01:28 Acrofales wrote:On January 10 2024 01:14 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 00:01 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 09 2024 23:35 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2024 22:40 WombaT wrote:On January 09 2024 06:51 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2024 04:46 Cricketer12 wrote: [quote] Checkmate libtards 😎 Kind of, what a disappointment so many people have been. I mistakenly thought many people on here critically thought and had certain values. Turns out many just rage at wherever they are told. I mean you’re welcome to continue your truly titanic levels of hubris in the thread if you fancy, doesn’t mean other people have to go with it. For someone pontificating about the benefits of unconscious bias training, the only thing you apparently picked up was how to recognise the bias of others. Absolute insulting nonsense Stop responding to me please, or at least expect me to stop responding to you. I can’t handle the constancy of your feelings getting hurt by things I write not about you and then future apologies. However, maybe ask yourself why you always think they are about you, maybe in fact they are true for you, only you know and your reaction screams something. Probably because you speak in a very vague sweeping way that you claim others do to your chagrin. Could be, I could be more specific. The problem with that is that is that what others say I get banned for. Not to mention if I was agreeing with the Israel rage I could get away with saying anything. Here is the thing if you are person who agrees with our far right nettles that the problem is race and language in moving a group of people, you better not be mad at him or the others who give the Donald the benefit of the doubt when he says things like, there are good people on both sides, you better also give him the benefit of the doubt to the extreme. The reality with this situation is that the “enemy” or big problem has nothing to do with race or language, it is that forceful removal of people is horrible. And everyone is only believing this as a real thought because they have already decided Israel is evil. The actual evil is religious orthodoxy, extremism, zealots. These are people on both sides of the borders that believe god has given them the right to kill and worse people who do not believe exactly the same thing as them about “god”. While using the word "race" is controversial, I don't think it's controversial in the slightest, that one of the reasons shipping 2million Palestinians to Congo is going to give problems is because they look, act and think differently to the current congolese, and the majority will probably want to continue looking, acting, and thinking like Palestinians, which is going to lead to conflict with local Congolese who would prefer they adopt local customs. Calling it "race" may not be right, but when has mass migration not led to local problems due to difficult integration with the locals? And obviously there is a hell of a lot more wrong with that as a "solution" than just the fact that Palestinians may have some problems integrating in Congolese society. Totally agree with your last paragraph. Using race as the first reasoning is wrong. No one wants to accept a bunch of religious zealots. Many countries can successfully integrate people of all races. If Nettles, our furthest right poster who has a long history of this type of thing had posted that on the US pol thread about a different group the reaction would have been completely different. I’m not sure if he did the race thing on purpose to see if people actually secretly agreed with him, or if it is just so normal for him he didn’t think about it. But it was not right and that no one else called him out about it and worse people are agreeing with him is awful. Dude you keep trying to act like a victim and act like you actually care about Palestinians and then say shit like this. You had me in the first sentence, had me thinking you were going to reiterate that the very notion of a mass exodus is fucked, but nah. The mass exodus is not real. But if it was I’d be highly against it and have said as much I don’t know 5 times? Edit: it’s kind of racist for people to believe this bull shit from the Congo side, what the Jews are going to pay them? Yes, you have said you're against it, but it turns out it's because you think Palestinians are just religious zealots, and before you hit me with the "I never claimed that all were nor that I was even referring to Palestinians when I said religious zealots" why would that be a relevant comment here.
EDIT: I call you out because I think you are intelligent enough to do better, one of the smarter guys here, but sometimes you say things that I find gross, how intentional that is I can't say, but be it your goal or not, certainly feels like you try to act like a middle of the road figure while insinuating problematic comments about the Palestinian people
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On January 10 2024 04:48 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 04:30 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 03:13 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 02:38 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 01:28 Acrofales wrote:On January 10 2024 01:14 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 00:01 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 09 2024 23:35 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2024 22:40 WombaT wrote: [quote] I mean you’re welcome to continue your truly titanic levels of hubris in the thread if you fancy, doesn’t mean other people have to go with it.
For someone pontificating about the benefits of unconscious bias training, the only thing you apparently picked up was how to recognise the bias of others.
Absolute insulting nonsense
Stop responding to me please, or at least expect me to stop responding to you. I can’t handle the constancy of your feelings getting hurt by things I write not about you and then future apologies. However, maybe ask yourself why you always think they are about you, maybe in fact they are true for you, only you know and your reaction screams something. Probably because you speak in a very vague sweeping way that you claim others do to your chagrin. Could be, I could be more specific. The problem with that is that is that what others say I get banned for. Not to mention if I was agreeing with the Israel rage I could get away with saying anything. Here is the thing if you are person who agrees with our far right nettles that the problem is race and language in moving a group of people, you better not be mad at him or the others who give the Donald the benefit of the doubt when he says things like, there are good people on both sides, you better also give him the benefit of the doubt to the extreme. The reality with this situation is that the “enemy” or big problem has nothing to do with race or language, it is that forceful removal of people is horrible. And everyone is only believing this as a real thought because they have already decided Israel is evil. The actual evil is religious orthodoxy, extremism, zealots. These are people on both sides of the borders that believe god has given them the right to kill and worse people who do not believe exactly the same thing as them about “god”. While using the word "race" is controversial, I don't think it's controversial in the slightest, that one of the reasons shipping 2million Palestinians to Congo is going to give problems is because they look, act and think differently to the current congolese, and the majority will probably want to continue looking, acting, and thinking like Palestinians, which is going to lead to conflict with local Congolese who would prefer they adopt local customs. Calling it "race" may not be right, but when has mass migration not led to local problems due to difficult integration with the locals? And obviously there is a hell of a lot more wrong with that as a "solution" than just the fact that Palestinians may have some problems integrating in Congolese society. Totally agree with your last paragraph. Using race as the first reasoning is wrong. No one wants to accept a bunch of religious zealots. Many countries can successfully integrate people of all races. If Nettles, our furthest right poster who has a long history of this type of thing had posted that on the US pol thread about a different group the reaction would have been completely different. I’m not sure if he did the race thing on purpose to see if people actually secretly agreed with him, or if it is just so normal for him he didn’t think about it. But it was not right and that no one else called him out about it and worse people are agreeing with him is awful. Dude you keep trying to act like a victim and act like you actually care about Palestinians and then say shit like this. You had me in the first sentence, had me thinking you were going to reiterate that the very notion of a mass exodus is fucked, but nah. The mass exodus is not real. But if it was I’d be highly against it and have said as much I don’t know 5 times? Edit: it’s kind of racist for people to believe this bull shit from the Congo side, what the Jews are going to pay them? Yes, you have said you're against it, but it turns out it's because you think Palestinians are just religious zealots, and before you hit me with the "I never claimed that all were nor that I was even referring to Palestinians when I said religious zealots" why would that be a relevant comment here. EDIT: I call you out because I think you are intelligent enough to do better, one of the smarter guys here, but sometimes you say things that I find gross, how intentional that is I can't say, but be it your goal or not, certainly feels like you try to act like a middle of the road figure while insinuating problematic comments about the Palestinian people If you can find where I said ALL Palestinians are zealots? Is it at all controversial to say that lots are? Thanks though for proving my point of thinking the worst of people who do not hate on Israel, whereas Nettles on this thread gets incredible levels of benefit of doubt when his whole posting history has earned the opposite. Who tf is Nettles? I think I have said anything regarding him once and it was calling him out.
I do like that I call you out saying "hey, words have meaning, you say things that insinuate a poor review of the average Palestinian" and you hit me back not with "hey good point I'll do better" or "can you point to some examples" or "can you clarify what you mean", but with "um actually I never said ALL". This is not the first time I've called you out on trying to say shit about the average citizen, last time you ignored me, which is fine, it's a big thread and stuff is easily missed, hard to give you the same benefit of doubt here.
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On January 10 2024 05:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 04:55 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 04:48 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 04:30 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 03:13 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 02:38 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 01:28 Acrofales wrote:On January 10 2024 01:14 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 00:01 Cricketer12 wrote: [quote] Probably because you speak in a very vague sweeping way that you claim others do to your chagrin. Could be, I could be more specific. The problem with that is that is that what others say I get banned for. Not to mention if I was agreeing with the Israel rage I could get away with saying anything. Here is the thing if you are person who agrees with our far right nettles that the problem is race and language in moving a group of people, you better not be mad at him or the others who give the Donald the benefit of the doubt when he says things like, there are good people on both sides, you better also give him the benefit of the doubt to the extreme. The reality with this situation is that the “enemy” or big problem has nothing to do with race or language, it is that forceful removal of people is horrible. And everyone is only believing this as a real thought because they have already decided Israel is evil. The actual evil is religious orthodoxy, extremism, zealots. These are people on both sides of the borders that believe god has given them the right to kill and worse people who do not believe exactly the same thing as them about “god”. While using the word "race" is controversial, I don't think it's controversial in the slightest, that one of the reasons shipping 2million Palestinians to Congo is going to give problems is because they look, act and think differently to the current congolese, and the majority will probably want to continue looking, acting, and thinking like Palestinians, which is going to lead to conflict with local Congolese who would prefer they adopt local customs. Calling it "race" may not be right, but when has mass migration not led to local problems due to difficult integration with the locals? And obviously there is a hell of a lot more wrong with that as a "solution" than just the fact that Palestinians may have some problems integrating in Congolese society. Totally agree with your last paragraph. Using race as the first reasoning is wrong. No one wants to accept a bunch of religious zealots. Many countries can successfully integrate people of all races. If Nettles, our furthest right poster who has a long history of this type of thing had posted that on the US pol thread about a different group the reaction would have been completely different. I’m not sure if he did the race thing on purpose to see if people actually secretly agreed with him, or if it is just so normal for him he didn’t think about it. But it was not right and that no one else called him out about it and worse people are agreeing with him is awful. Dude you keep trying to act like a victim and act like you actually care about Palestinians and then say shit like this. You had me in the first sentence, had me thinking you were going to reiterate that the very notion of a mass exodus is fucked, but nah. The mass exodus is not real. But if it was I’d be highly against it and have said as much I don’t know 5 times? Edit: it’s kind of racist for people to believe this bull shit from the Congo side, what the Jews are going to pay them? Yes, you have said you're against it, but it turns out it's because you think Palestinians are just religious zealots, and before you hit me with the "I never claimed that all were nor that I was even referring to Palestinians when I said religious zealots" why would that be a relevant comment here. EDIT: I call you out because I think you are intelligent enough to do better, one of the smarter guys here, but sometimes you say things that I find gross, how intentional that is I can't say, but be it your goal or not, certainly feels like you try to act like a middle of the road figure while insinuating problematic comments about the Palestinian people If you can find where I said ALL Palestinians are zealots? Is it at all controversial to say that lots are? Thanks though for proving my point of thinking the worst of people who do not hate on Israel, whereas Nettles on this thread gets incredible levels of benefit of doubt when his whole posting history has earned the opposite. Who tf is Nettles? I think I have said anything regarding him once and it was calling him out. I do like that I call you out saying "hey, words have meaning, you say things that insinuate a poor review of the average Palestinian" and you hit me back not with "hey good point I'll do better" or "can you point to some examples" or "can you clarify what you mean", but with "um actually I never said ALL". This is not the first time I've called you out on trying to say shit about the average citizen, last time you ignored me, which is fine, it's a big thread and stuff is easily missed, hard to give you the same benefit of doubt here. Nettles is the guy who made the race post. He’s a far right poster who has made his world view clear on the USpol thread, Covid thread and likely others. Those who post there know his world view and many of them have called him out on them there. But here it’s crickets. Pun intended. I can’t make every post a perfect dissertation that people can’t find something to be mad about if they want too. I’m not particularly worried about it as I know where my morales and values stand. I’m happy to clarify and debate, but if people are going to hold their negative assumptions of me as fact that is their problem and not mine. I don't think you have to be perfect to address the point I raised. I don't think it's a particularly political point of discussion (unless you're an alt-right racist) which I don't think you are. I'm happy you know where your morals and values stand but if the wording in your posts varies from that and people point that out, I'm not sure how you can be annoyed by that, unless I am wrong in my assumptions and you really do believe the Palestinians are a problematic people in general, or that the IDF's crimes are far fewer than is the reality.
Yeah, from the sounds of it, Nettles post here was really insidious and should be called out. You were correct in your reply to him that the primary problem and the first thing to be called out isn't race, it's the very concept of forced mass exodus.
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On January 10 2024 06:57 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 05:10 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 05:01 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 04:55 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 04:48 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 04:30 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 03:13 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 02:38 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 01:28 Acrofales wrote: [quote]
While using the word "race" is controversial, I don't think it's controversial in the slightest, that one of the reasons shipping 2million Palestinians to Congo is going to give problems is because they look, act and think differently to the current congolese, and the majority will probably want to continue looking, acting, and thinking like Palestinians, which is going to lead to conflict with local Congolese who would prefer they adopt local customs.
Calling it "race" may not be right, but when has mass migration not led to local problems due to difficult integration with the locals?
And obviously there is a hell of a lot more wrong with that as a "solution" than just the fact that Palestinians may have some problems integrating in Congolese society. Totally agree with your last paragraph. Using race as the first reasoning is wrong. No one wants to accept a bunch of religious zealots. Many countries can successfully integrate people of all races. If Nettles, our furthest right poster who has a long history of this type of thing had posted that on the US pol thread about a different group the reaction would have been completely different. I’m not sure if he did the race thing on purpose to see if people actually secretly agreed with him, or if it is just so normal for him he didn’t think about it. But it was not right and that no one else called him out about it and worse people are agreeing with him is awful. Dude you keep trying to act like a victim and act like you actually care about Palestinians and then say shit like this. You had me in the first sentence, had me thinking you were going to reiterate that the very notion of a mass exodus is fucked, but nah. The mass exodus is not real. But if it was I’d be highly against it and have said as much I don’t know 5 times? Edit: it’s kind of racist for people to believe this bull shit from the Congo side, what the Jews are going to pay them? Yes, you have said you're against it, but it turns out it's because you think Palestinians are just religious zealots, and before you hit me with the "I never claimed that all were nor that I was even referring to Palestinians when I said religious zealots" why would that be a relevant comment here. EDIT: I call you out because I think you are intelligent enough to do better, one of the smarter guys here, but sometimes you say things that I find gross, how intentional that is I can't say, but be it your goal or not, certainly feels like you try to act like a middle of the road figure while insinuating problematic comments about the Palestinian people If you can find where I said ALL Palestinians are zealots? Is it at all controversial to say that lots are? Thanks though for proving my point of thinking the worst of people who do not hate on Israel, whereas Nettles on this thread gets incredible levels of benefit of doubt when his whole posting history has earned the opposite. Who tf is Nettles? I think I have said anything regarding him once and it was calling him out. I do like that I call you out saying "hey, words have meaning, you say things that insinuate a poor review of the average Palestinian" and you hit me back not with "hey good point I'll do better" or "can you point to some examples" or "can you clarify what you mean", but with "um actually I never said ALL". This is not the first time I've called you out on trying to say shit about the average citizen, last time you ignored me, which is fine, it's a big thread and stuff is easily missed, hard to give you the same benefit of doubt here. Nettles is the guy who made the race post. He’s a far right poster who has made his world view clear on the USpol thread, Covid thread and likely others. Those who post there know his world view and many of them have called him out on them there. But here it’s crickets. Pun intended. I can’t make every post a perfect dissertation that people can’t find something to be mad about if they want too. I’m not particularly worried about it as I know where my morales and values stand. I’m happy to clarify and debate, but if people are going to hold their negative assumptions of me as fact that is their problem and not mine. I don't think you have to be perfect to address the point I raised. I don't think it's a particularly political point of discussion (unless you're an alt-right racist) which I don't think you are. I'm happy you know where your morals and values stand but if the wording in your posts varies from that and people point that out, I'm not sure how you can be annoyed by that, unless I am wrong in my assumptions and you really do believe the Palestinians are a problematic people in general, or that the IDF's crimes are far fewer than is the reality. Yeah, from the sounds of it, Nettles post here was really insidious and should be called out. You were correct in your reply to him that the primary problem and the first thing to be called out isn't race, it's the very concept of forced mass exodus. I have said lots that I think the IDF is very callous in their war with Hamas. They show no regard for the Palestinian people. I'm not sure why I have to reiterate it over and over. I also do not believe the Palestinians are a problematic people in general. I do believe that Hamas is evil. I do believe that religious extremism is a huge problem in the world. And that is true in most nations. A story that didn't get any mention on this thread, which is not a big deal since it is not directly related, is that ISIS sent suicide bombers to kill a bunch of people at a funeral for a Iran commander who was killed by Israel. I think Iran and is a huge problem in funding terror and participating and yet I didn't cheer. The people at funeral do not deserve to die by suicide bomb regardless of me disagreeing that they should attend. And how could I cheer for anything ISIS does they are just the different side of the same coin with Hamas. ISIS "winning" does not help anyone, even if they destroy a group I despise. This is very round about and maybe not that well thought out, but what I'm trying to get at is talking like its Israel or Israeli's causing the major problems is not accurate. It is the far right within Israel that is, and is powered by religious extremists and that group is growing not shrinking. Yelling hate towards Israel is not going to change that, it might even accelerate it. Palestine has basically been over run by religious hate groups, Syria is having a civil war between multiple hate factions, Iran is run by them, Lebanon is either run by one of these groups or to scared to do anything about it, the Taliban won and they are spreading in there part of the world. The way Israel is going about dealing with it is wrong, partly because they are not dealing with the problem internally and largely because their callous actions are feeding the problem not lessoning it. But what is the solution? The US tried their own ham fisted attempt in Iraq on false pretenses, their attempt to create a democracy was an abject failure and somehow in ousting one of the worlds most evil dictators they made it worse. They had more support in Afghanistan and failed just as hard. Are we as a world returning to where powerful people use religion to justify evil acts that make themselves more rich and powerful (not that it ever really went away), and empires rise and fall with human rights completely ignored? Can the world even survive this kind of thing with how far technology has gotten? What kind of environmental damage is being done in Ukraine, Syria and now Gaza? I'm sure it dwarfs what is still happening in China, India, the US and basically everywhere. We have big collective, possibly world ending, problems that we can't even talk and debate about, because it seems like just about everyone feels the need to "pick a side" then they apologize away all the evil their own side does. And how Hamas became part of the left absolutely boggles my mind, they have zero shared values. Shared values matter nothing to people anymore, its not a left problem (hello the Donald and hard core Christians) its a world wide everyone problem. Thanks for taking the time to put that together.
I have said lots that I think the IDF is very callous in their war with Hamas. They show no regard for the Palestinian people. I'm not sure why I have to reiterate it over and over. I also do not believe the Palestinians are a problematic people in general. I do believe that Hamas is evil. I do believe that religious extremism is a huge problem in the world. And that is true in most nations.
So I will say, I do believe you and believe this, I think I've done a poor job of explaining why I harp on this matter. I will, moving forward, bear this in mind, with that said, my criticism is one I would like to see improvement on and here is why. In the event you say something that can be misconstrued in a malicious manner and others digest that interpretation, while I would not hold you at fault, I would be saddened by that outcome. It's easy to avoid. I see this a lot in America, where words are used in Media headlines to describe two events that playout similarly but paint them in completely different ways. With a few exceptions whose posts are rare, I do not find this thread guilty of the level of racism I find in the general public in the West, and while I acknowledge that this thread is rather innocent of that crime, it remains a sore spot and a hot button issue for me personally. I am not asking you to prove your morals, I'm asking you to phrase your points in a way that demonstrate that, and if I see an unintentional slip up, I'm gonna call it out (you aren't the first I've called out in this thread, though others have been far more overt by intentionally saying disgusting things) because i find you to be a noteworthy voice here, and one with impact and sway. That's probably unfair to you, and I should be better about holding everyone to the same standard, some posts just happen to pop out more, and I miss things.
Regarding religious extremism, I don't know if I view it as problematic as you do. My view is that religious extremism in the modern day is a direct reaction and symptom to what I view as greater issues, and addressing those would largely solve the extremism. I don't know exactly what you feel about that so I won't assume. Not sure if this thread is the place to ask about that in particular (though in my mind it does eventually connect).
A story that didn't get any mention on this thread, which is not a big deal since it is not directly related, is that ISIS sent suicide bombers to kill a bunch of people at a funeral for a Iran commander who was killed by Israel. I think Iran and is a huge problem in funding terror and participating and yet I didn't cheer. The people at funeral do not deserve to die by suicide bomb regardless of me disagreeing that they should attend. And how could I cheer for anything ISIS does they are just the different side of the same coin with Hamas. ISIS "winning" does not help anyone, even if they destroy a group I despise.
I am glad to hear this, my view is similar.
This is very round about and maybe not that well thought out, but what I'm trying to get at is talking like its Israel or Israeli's causing the major problems is not accurate. It is the far right within Israel that is, and is powered by religious extremists and that group is growing not shrinking. Yelling hate towards Israel is not going to change that, it might even accelerate it. Palestine has basically been over run by religious hate groups, Syria is having a civil war between multiple hate factions, Iran is run by them, Lebanon is either run by one of these groups or to scared to do anything about it, the Taliban won and they are spreading in there part of the world.
The way Israel is going about dealing with it is wrong, partly because they are not dealing with the problem internally and largely because their callous actions are feeding the problem not lessoning it. But what is the solution? The US tried their own ham fisted attempt in Iraq on false pretenses, their attempt to create a democracy was an abject failure and somehow in ousting one of the worlds most evil dictators they made it worse. They had more support in Afghanistan and failed just as hard.
I will agree that the average Israeli citizen hasn't done anything wrong. I don't have pure numbers and polls from Israel, so perhaps my assumptions are incorrect. I've only read articles and seen videos displaying pure hate (from politicians and layman alike) but I don't mind admitting that the sample size is biased and there's likely more to the story. From what I have seen, depending on what you are referring to as alt-right in this regard, I don't know that I agree the issue, from those in political power is as contained as you describe, that said the last time I had looked into the matter, Benny Gantz was with Blue and White and was described as the liberal candidate compared to Bibi, and so far as Palestine is concerned, he didn't seem much better. Perhaps there are new candidates and politicians who can bring in a brighter future, I hope so, I'm not aware of them, but if they exist, please educate me.
To answer your question, to me the solution relates to what I alluded to earlier. I think the problem is a lot of what we see is a reaction to foreign intervention in the region. Take America for example, with Biden's now infamous moment in Congress essentially admitting that America's alliance and support for Israel has been determined by Israel's ability to destablize the region. I think there needs to be less intervention and more of a handsoff approach. I don't think that will immediately make everything perfect, but it's an important step.
Are we as a world returning to where powerful people use religion to justify evil acts that make themselves more rich and powerful (not that it ever really went away), and empires rise and fall with human rights completely ignored? Can the world even survive this kind of thing with how far technology has gotten? What kind of environmental damage is being done in Ukraine, Syria and now Gaza? I'm sure it dwarfs what is still happening in China, India, the US and basically everywhere. We have big collective, possibly world ending, problems that we can't even talk and debate about, because it seems like just about everyone feels the need to "pick a side" then they apologize away all the evil their own side does. And how Hamas became part of the left absolutely boggles my mind, they have zero shared values. Shared values matter nothing to people anymore, its not a left problem (hello the Donald and hard core Christians) its a world wide everyone problem.
I mean, the powerful have always blinded the masses any way they can use deception and distractions, scapegoating the innocent to their own benefit. I agree that justice is justice, and evil should be called out regardless of where it is coming from. I think people defending Hamas are falling into a trap. I think Hamas is evil, and we may disagree here, but I think the IDF is evil as well. There are civilians across the board in the region being ideologically driven to the margins and damned physically, emotionally and mentally.
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Northern Ireland24324 Posts
On January 10 2024 01:14 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 00:01 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 09 2024 23:35 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2024 22:40 WombaT wrote:On January 09 2024 06:51 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2024 04:46 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 09 2024 01:04 JimmiC wrote:On January 08 2024 17:16 WombaT wrote:On January 08 2024 03:10 JimmiC wrote:On January 08 2024 02:42 Severedevil wrote: [quote] That's your takeaway? Palestinians aren't from the fucking Congo, it's not even nearby. There's no connection at all. It's like if the U.S. decided to annex Mexico and exile Mexicans to the Congo. Yes my take away from Nettles post is that he says race is the number 1 reason it won’t work. This shouldn’t be shocking for anyone who’s read nettles posts over the years. Obviously forced migration is a terrible idea for any large group to anywhere. My other take away is that when it comes to this topic many people who profess to deeply care about certain values turn it off or ignore them from people and groups they consider allies against Israel. I mean he gave equal weighting in that one sentence to race and language barriers, and one could assume he also meant general cultural differences although the man himself didn’t write that. Who are the people and what values are they ostensibly ‘turning off’ when it comes to this topic? Sometimes people will agree on something even if they’re at loggerheads on almost every other issue of the day. Guaranteed on other threads no one would have read it the way you and a bunch of others have given Nettles history. The dog pile would have been all over it, but that is saved for people who don’t hate Isreal strong enough on this thread. It’s crazy. Checkmate libtards 😎 Kind of, what a disappointment so many people have been. I mistakenly thought many people on here critically thought and had certain values. Turns out many just rage at wherever they are told. I mean you’re welcome to continue your truly titanic levels of hubris in the thread if you fancy, doesn’t mean other people have to go with it. For someone pontificating about the benefits of unconscious bias training, the only thing you apparently picked up was how to recognise the bias of others. Absolute insulting nonsense Stop responding to me please, or at least expect me to stop responding to you. I can’t handle the constancy of your feelings getting hurt by things I write not about you and then future apologies. However, maybe ask yourself why you always think they are about you, maybe in fact they are true for you, only you know and your reaction screams something. Probably because you speak in a very vague sweeping way that you claim others do to your chagrin. Could be, I could be more specific. The problem with that is that is that what others say I get banned for. Not to mention if I was agreeing with the Israel rage I could get away with saying anything.Here is the thing if you are person who agrees with our far right nettles that the problem is race and language in moving a group of people, you better not be mad at him or the others who give the Donald the benefit of the doubt when he says things like, there are good people on both sides, you better also give him the benefit of the doubt to the extreme. The reality with this situation is that the “enemy” or big problem has nothing to do with race or language, it is that forceful removal of people is horrible. And everyone is only believing this as a real thought because they have already decided Israel is evil. The actual evil is religious orthodoxy, extremism, zealots. These are people on both sides of the borders that believe god has given them the right to kill and worse people who do not believe exactly the same thing as them about “god”. Right well for my part, I don’t tend to engage with Nettles because of his pump and dump approach to threads, he never sticks around to actually discuss any talking point he brings up. Secondly, in another forum full of folks who might be more receptive I’d challenge more readily, even in his absence, but thats not really the case in our wee corner of the internet.
As for the bolded part, following on from what Cricketer says too, if you’re making pretty generalised statements, people may be getting their backs up when they’re not actually the folks you’re ascribing certain behaviours or views to.
I doubt you’ll get banned for a bit of specificity, perhaps a mod can clarify, and I probably have a worse rep sheet mod wise, defo copped a few (deserved) bans in my time. If anything, it’s the lack of specificity that probably causes more friction and irritation than directly targeting things, see exhibit A right here
I’ll strive to not be an asshole and keep that temper of mine in better check. Certainly a bad habit of mine
I just don’t think it’s too crazy an ask, or comes from a place of me being upset to refrain from vague digs that blight your generally very fine posting
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On January 09 2024 17:30 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2024 10:13 Cerebrate1 wrote:On January 08 2024 08:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:To think it is odd seeing politicians of other countries be lunatics and use foreign policy to stay in power. We in the US are familiar with our country having a monopoly on such people... Biden could easily put this to bed by stating he will only approve Humanitarian aid going forward, no armaments etc. Allow Congress, and the Senate take the heat going forward. But for some reason he won't do that. ISTANBUL — President Biden has dispatched his top aides to the Middle East with a critical objective: Prevent a full-blown war from erupting between Israel and the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah.
Israel has made clear it views as untenable the regular exchange of fire between its forces and Hezbollah along the border and may soon launch a major military operation in Lebanon.
“We prefer the path of an agreed-upon diplomatic settlement,” Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said Friday, “but we are getting close to the point where the hourglass will turn over.”
U.S. officials are concerned that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu may see an expanded fight in Lebanon as key to his political survival amid domestic criticism of his government’s failure to prevent Hamas’s Oct. 7 attack, which killed an estimated 1,200 people and resulted in some 240 hostages being taken to Gaza.
In private conversations, the administration has warned Israel against a significant escalation in Lebanon. If it were to do so, a new secret assessment from the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) found that it will be difficult for Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to succeed because its military assets and resources would be spread too thin given the conflict in Gaza, according to two people familiar with those findings. A spokesperson for the DIA did not offer comment.
More than a dozen administration officials and diplomats spoke to The Washington Post for this report, some on the condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive military situation between Israel and Lebanon.
Hezbollah, a longtime U.S. adversary with well-trained fighters and tens of thousands of missiles and rockets, wants to avoid a major escalation, according to U.S. officials, who say the group’s leader, Hasan Nasrallah, is seeking to steer clear of a wider war. In a speech on Friday, Nasrallah vowed a response to Israeli aggression, while hinting that he might be open to negotiations on border demarcation with Israel.
Secretary of State Antony Blinken is set to arrive in Israel on Monday where he will discuss specific steps to “avoid escalation,” his spokesman, Matt Miller said before boarding a plane to the Middle East.
“It is in no one’s interest — not Israel’s, not the region’s, not the world’s — for this conflict to spread beyond Gaza,” Miller said. But that view is not uniformly held within Israel’s government.
Since Hamas’s October assault, Israeli officials have discussed launching a preemptive attack on Hezbollah, U.S. officials said. That prospect has faced sustained U.S. opposition due to the likelihood it would draw Iran, which supports both groups, and other proxy forces into the conflict — an eventuality that could compel the United States to respond militarily on Israel’s behalf.
Officials fear that a full-scale conflict between Israel and Lebanon would surpass the bloodshed of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon war on account of Hezbollah’s substantially larger arsenal of long-range and precision weaponry. “The number of casualties in Lebanon could be anywhere from 300,000 to 500,000 and entail a massive evacuation of all of northern Israel,” said Bilal Saab, a Lebanon expert at the Middle East Institute, a Washington think tank.
Hezbollah may strike deeper into Israel than before, hitting sensitive targets like petrochemical plants and nuclear reactors, and Iran may activate militias across the region. “I don’t think it would be limited to these two antagonists,” he said.
The threat of a wider conflict continued to grow Saturday as Hezbollah launched about 40 rockets into Israel in response to its suspected assassination of senior Hamas leader Saleh Arouri and six others in an airstrike in suburban Beirut, Lebanon’s capital, days earlier.
In recent weeks, Israel’s regular shootouts with Hezbollah along the border have grown more aggressive, drawing private rebukes from Washington, said U.S. officials.
According to U.S. intelligence reviewed by The Post, the IDF has hit the positions of the U.S.-funded and trained Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) more than 34 times since Oct. 7, officials familiar with the matter said.
The United States views the LAF as the principal defender of Lebanon’s sovereignty and a key counterweight to the influence of Iran-backed Hezbollah.
On Dec. 5, four rounds of Israeli tank fire resulted in the killing of one LAF soldier and the injury of three others. On Dec. 8, Israeli artillery fire containing white phosphorous hit LAF facilities, injuring an LAF soldier who inhaled the noxious fumes. On Nov. 4, Israeli fire against an LAF position at Sarda left a “large hole in a LAF structure,” according to the U.S. intelligence. Some details of these attacks were reported previously by CNN.
The Office of the Director of National Intelligence declined to comment on the Israeli strikes, but the White House National Security Council confirmed that Washington has conveyed to Israel that attacks on LAF and Lebanese civilians are “completely unacceptable.”
A National Security Council official said the Biden administration has been “very direct and tough” with the Israelis on the issue and has said Lebanese Armed Forces injuries and fatalities are not acceptable.
The official also said a priority was maintaining the credibility of the Lebanese Armed Forces and that the international community should be doing everything it can to bolster and support them, as they would be a vital component of any “day after” scenario in Lebanon in which Hezbollah is weakened and poses less of a threat to Israel.
The official emphasized, though, that Hezbollah is a “legitimate threat” to Israel and said the Jewish state has a right to defend itself.
An Israeli official told The Post that Israel does not deliberately target LAF positions and blamed Hezbollah for ratcheting up tensions.
“Hezbollah began firing into Israeli territory, unprovoked, on October 8th and has continued to do so on a daily basis, firing thousands of projectiles. Israel was forced to respond in self-defense,” the official said.
“As a result of Hezbollah’s aggression, tens of thousands of Israelis were forced to leave their homes. The state of Israel will not return to the prewar status quo in which Hezbollah poses a direct and immediate military threat to its security along the Israel-Lebanon border,” the official added.
When Israeli officials first floated the idea of attacking Hezbollah during the opening days of the Gaza conflict, U.S. officials immediately raised objections, said a senior administration official.
Israeli officials initially were convinced that the Lebanese militant group was behind the Hamas incursion and had received bad intelligence that a Hezbollah attack was imminent in the days after Oct. 7, according to two senior U.S. officials. There were deep fears in Israel that the government would miss the signs of another violent assault.
Biden was on the phone up to three times a day, the senior administration official said, in part working to dissuade Israel from attacking Hezbollah — a move that would have resulted in “all hell breaking loose,” the official said. The Israelis’ deep fears about the threat influenced Biden’s decision to fly to Tel Aviv less than two weeks after the Hamas attack, according to one of the senior officials.
The risk that Israel might launch an ambitious attack on Hezbollah has never gone away, said White House and State Department officials, but there has been broader concern about an escalation in recent weeks, particularly as Israel announced the temporary withdrawal of several thousand troops from Gaza on Jan. 1 — a decision that could open up resources for a military operation in the north.
“They have a freer hand to escalate,” said a U.S. official.
Another U.S. official said that the forces Israel withdrew from Gaza could be deployed to the north after sufficient time to rest and prepare for another wave of combat. But Israel’s air force is also overworked, having conducted constant strikes since the war began in October, said the official, explaining the Defense Intelligence Agency’s assessment that an escalation in Lebanon would spread Israeli forces thin.
Pilots are tired, and airplanes have to be maintained and refitted, the official said. They would face more dangerous missions in Lebanon than in Gaza, where Hamas has little in the way of antiaircraft defenses to shoot down attacking planes.
On Thursday, Biden sent special envoy Amos Hochstein to Israel to work on an agreement to reduce tensions at the Lebanese-Israeli border. The near-term goal is to develop a process to start negotiating a land demarcation agreement that could delineate where and how the two sides deploy forces along the border in an effort to stabilize the situation.
U.S. and French officials are in discussions with the Lebanese government over a proposal that would have the Lebanese government take control of part of the Lebanon-Israel border, rather than Hezbollah, to help assuage Israeli concerns, according to two people familiar with the conversations.
The White House declined to detail the plan.
“We continue to explore and exhaust all diplomatic options with our Israeli and Lebanese partners,” said the National Security Council official. “Getting Israeli and Lebanese citizens back into their homes, living in peace and security is of the utmost importance to the United States.”
U.S. officials concede that Hezbollah is unlikely to agree to a border deal while scores of Palestinians in Gaza are being killed or injured as a result of Israel’s military campaign there.
Within the administration, there are differing perceptions about Netanyahu’s interest in a negotiated resolution to the Hezbollah conflict. One senior U.S. official said the Israeli leader’s pledge to create a “fundamental change” to address the border fighting with Hezbollah is mere bluster aimed at extracting concessions from the Lebanese group. Others said that if the Gaza war ends tomorrow, Netanyahu’s political career will end with it, incentivizing him to broaden the conflict.
“The political logic for Netanyahu is to rebound after the historic failure of Oct. 7 and have some kind of success to show to the Israeli public,” said Saab, the Lebanon expert. “I’m not sure going after Hezbollah is the right way to do it because that campaign will be far more challenging than the one in Gaza.”
When asked if political incentives are driving Netanyahu’s military ambitions, a senior Israeli government official said only that “the prime minister will continue to take the necessary steps to secure Israel and its future.”
Before flying to Jordan, Blinken said reducing tensions at the border “is something that we’re very actively working on.”
“It’s clearly a strongly shared interest” among countries in the region, he said. Source I appreciate your article. It does a good job explaining a lot of the angles going on here at once. I want to add a little more depth to the Israeli perspective on this topic: in the wake of Oct 7, there is concern that that atrocity will be repeated. Once people see that something works, they tend to repeat it. The first car ramming in Israel was followed by more in short order, the first rocket attack was followed by a whole industry of hand made rockets, etc. Right across from Israel's northern border is an organization called Hezbollah. They are a designated terroist organization by a whole slew of countries (including even the Arab League) and are part of the "Axis of Resistance" with Iran and friends. They very much hate Israel and joined the war on Hamas' side almost immediately after Oct 7 (before Israel had even secured their own borders). Worse though, Hezbollah is like Hamas' big brother. They have at least 3 times as many soldiers as Hamas, have many more and higher quality weapons, and have real battle experience (they've been involved in the Syrian Civil war). They also have tons of terror tunnels, likely with some already burrowed across the border into Israel. Given the similar ideology and funders as Hamas, Israel kind of assumes that a larger attack from Hezbollah is less a question of "if" but "when." And given Hezbollahs greater capabilities than Hamas, people living in Northern Israel are rightfully quite concerned. Does it make sense to wait until after a bigger Oct 7 to deal with the terrorists north of the border? Hezbollah has not joined this fight yet. Fire exchanges on Lebanon-Isreal border are something normal. Right now Netanjahu is trying to provoke them into attacking full power with drone strikes on targets inside Lebanon (to keep people inside Israel busy and away from his own failures/corruption) but so far Hezbollah has shown much restraint. Meanwhile Biden/Blinken are frantically trying to keep things from escalating and erupting into full-blown regional war with direct Iran involvement. It's kinda odd to call firing dozens of rockets at a country every day for months in open solidarity with Hamas "not join[ing] the fight."
But I agree if you just mean that Hezbollah hasn't committed to total war against Israel yet, based on the damage they could commit with their full capabilities. They are seeing what they can get away with without quite stepping over the line where Israel is forced to fully commit against them in return.
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On January 10 2024 10:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 09:35 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 06:57 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 05:10 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 05:01 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 04:55 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 04:48 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 04:30 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 04:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 03:13 Cricketer12 wrote: [quote] Dude you keep trying to act like a victim and act like you actually care about Palestinians and then say shit like this.
You had me in the first sentence, had me thinking you were going to reiterate that the very notion of a mass exodus is fucked, but nah. The mass exodus is not real. But if it was I’d be highly against it and have said as much I don’t know 5 times? Edit: it’s kind of racist for people to believe this bull shit from the Congo side, what the Jews are going to pay them? Yes, you have said you're against it, but it turns out it's because you think Palestinians are just religious zealots, and before you hit me with the "I never claimed that all were nor that I was even referring to Palestinians when I said religious zealots" why would that be a relevant comment here. EDIT: I call you out because I think you are intelligent enough to do better, one of the smarter guys here, but sometimes you say things that I find gross, how intentional that is I can't say, but be it your goal or not, certainly feels like you try to act like a middle of the road figure while insinuating problematic comments about the Palestinian people If you can find where I said ALL Palestinians are zealots? Is it at all controversial to say that lots are? Thanks though for proving my point of thinking the worst of people who do not hate on Israel, whereas Nettles on this thread gets incredible levels of benefit of doubt when his whole posting history has earned the opposite. Who tf is Nettles? I think I have said anything regarding him once and it was calling him out. I do like that I call you out saying "hey, words have meaning, you say things that insinuate a poor review of the average Palestinian" and you hit me back not with "hey good point I'll do better" or "can you point to some examples" or "can you clarify what you mean", but with "um actually I never said ALL". This is not the first time I've called you out on trying to say shit about the average citizen, last time you ignored me, which is fine, it's a big thread and stuff is easily missed, hard to give you the same benefit of doubt here. Nettles is the guy who made the race post. He’s a far right poster who has made his world view clear on the USpol thread, Covid thread and likely others. Those who post there know his world view and many of them have called him out on them there. But here it’s crickets. Pun intended. I can’t make every post a perfect dissertation that people can’t find something to be mad about if they want too. I’m not particularly worried about it as I know where my morales and values stand. I’m happy to clarify and debate, but if people are going to hold their negative assumptions of me as fact that is their problem and not mine. I don't think you have to be perfect to address the point I raised. I don't think it's a particularly political point of discussion (unless you're an alt-right racist) which I don't think you are. I'm happy you know where your morals and values stand but if the wording in your posts varies from that and people point that out, I'm not sure how you can be annoyed by that, unless I am wrong in my assumptions and you really do believe the Palestinians are a problematic people in general, or that the IDF's crimes are far fewer than is the reality. Yeah, from the sounds of it, Nettles post here was really insidious and should be called out. You were correct in your reply to him that the primary problem and the first thing to be called out isn't race, it's the very concept of forced mass exodus. I have said lots that I think the IDF is very callous in their war with Hamas. They show no regard for the Palestinian people. I'm not sure why I have to reiterate it over and over. I also do not believe the Palestinians are a problematic people in general. I do believe that Hamas is evil. I do believe that religious extremism is a huge problem in the world. And that is true in most nations. A story that didn't get any mention on this thread, which is not a big deal since it is not directly related, is that ISIS sent suicide bombers to kill a bunch of people at a funeral for a Iran commander who was killed by Israel. I think Iran and is a huge problem in funding terror and participating and yet I didn't cheer. The people at funeral do not deserve to die by suicide bomb regardless of me disagreeing that they should attend. And how could I cheer for anything ISIS does they are just the different side of the same coin with Hamas. ISIS "winning" does not help anyone, even if they destroy a group I despise. This is very round about and maybe not that well thought out, but what I'm trying to get at is talking like its Israel or Israeli's causing the major problems is not accurate. It is the far right within Israel that is, and is powered by religious extremists and that group is growing not shrinking. Yelling hate towards Israel is not going to change that, it might even accelerate it. Palestine has basically been over run by religious hate groups, Syria is having a civil war between multiple hate factions, Iran is run by them, Lebanon is either run by one of these groups or to scared to do anything about it, the Taliban won and they are spreading in there part of the world. The way Israel is going about dealing with it is wrong, partly because they are not dealing with the problem internally and largely because their callous actions are feeding the problem not lessoning it. But what is the solution? The US tried their own ham fisted attempt in Iraq on false pretenses, their attempt to create a democracy was an abject failure and somehow in ousting one of the worlds most evil dictators they made it worse. They had more support in Afghanistan and failed just as hard. Are we as a world returning to where powerful people use religion to justify evil acts that make themselves more rich and powerful (not that it ever really went away), and empires rise and fall with human rights completely ignored? Can the world even survive this kind of thing with how far technology has gotten? What kind of environmental damage is being done in Ukraine, Syria and now Gaza? I'm sure it dwarfs what is still happening in China, India, the US and basically everywhere. We have big collective, possibly world ending, problems that we can't even talk and debate about, because it seems like just about everyone feels the need to "pick a side" then they apologize away all the evil their own side does. And how Hamas became part of the left absolutely boggles my mind, they have zero shared values. Shared values matter nothing to people anymore, its not a left problem (hello the Donald and hard core Christians) its a world wide everyone problem. Thanks for taking the time to put that together. I have said lots that I think the IDF is very callous in their war with Hamas. They show no regard for the Palestinian people. I'm not sure why I have to reiterate it over and over. I also do not believe the Palestinians are a problematic people in general. I do believe that Hamas is evil. I do believe that religious extremism is a huge problem in the world. And that is true in most nations.
So I will say, I do believe you and believe this, I think I've done a poor job of explaining why I harp on this matter. I will, moving forward, bear this in mind, with that said, my criticism is one I would like to see improvement on and here is why. In the event you say something that can be misconstrued in a malicious manner and others digest that interpretation, while I would not hold you at fault, I would be saddened by that outcome. It's easy to avoid. I see this a lot in America, where words are used in Media headlines to describe two events that playout similarly but paint them in completely different ways. With a few exceptions whose posts are rare, I do not find this thread guilty of the level of racism I find in the general public in the West, and while I acknowledge that this thread is rather innocent of that crime, it remains a sore spot and a hot button issue for me personally. I am not asking you to prove your morals, I'm asking you to phrase your points in a way that demonstrate that, and if I see an unintentional slip up, I'm gonna call it out (you aren't the first I've called out in this thread, though others have been far more overt by intentionally saying disgusting things) because i find you to be a noteworthy voice here, and one with impact and sway. That's probably unfair to you, and I should be better about holding everyone to the same standard, some posts just happen to pop out more, and I miss things. Regarding religious extremism, I don't know if I view it as problematic as you do. My view is that religious extremism in the modern day is a direct reaction and symptom to what I view as greater issues, and addressing those would largely solve the extremism. I don't know exactly what you feel about that so I won't assume. Not sure if this thread is the place to ask about that in particular (though in my mind it does eventually connect). A story that didn't get any mention on this thread, which is not a big deal since it is not directly related, is that ISIS sent suicide bombers to kill a bunch of people at a funeral for a Iran commander who was killed by Israel. I think Iran and is a huge problem in funding terror and participating and yet I didn't cheer. The people at funeral do not deserve to die by suicide bomb regardless of me disagreeing that they should attend. And how could I cheer for anything ISIS does they are just the different side of the same coin with Hamas. ISIS "winning" does not help anyone, even if they destroy a group I despise.
I am glad to hear this, my view is similar. This is very round about and maybe not that well thought out, but what I'm trying to get at is talking like its Israel or Israeli's causing the major problems is not accurate. It is the far right within Israel that is, and is powered by religious extremists and that group is growing not shrinking. Yelling hate towards Israel is not going to change that, it might even accelerate it. Palestine has basically been over run by religious hate groups, Syria is having a civil war between multiple hate factions, Iran is run by them, Lebanon is either run by one of these groups or to scared to do anything about it, the Taliban won and they are spreading in there part of the world.
The way Israel is going about dealing with it is wrong, partly because they are not dealing with the problem internally and largely because their callous actions are feeding the problem not lessoning it. But what is the solution? The US tried their own ham fisted attempt in Iraq on false pretenses, their attempt to create a democracy was an abject failure and somehow in ousting one of the worlds most evil dictators they made it worse. They had more support in Afghanistan and failed just as hard.
I will agree that the average Israeli citizen hasn't done anything wrong. I don't have pure numbers and polls from Israel, so perhaps my assumptions are incorrect. I've only read articles and seen videos displaying pure hate (from politicians and layman alike) but I don't mind admitting that the sample size is biased and there's likely more to the story. From what I have seen, depending on what you are referring to as alt-right in this regard, I don't know that I agree the issue, from those in political power is as contained as you describe, that said the last time I had looked into the matter, Benny Gantz was with Blue and White and was described as the liberal candidate compared to Bibi, and so far as Palestine is concerned, he didn't seem much better. Perhaps there are new candidates and politicians who can bring in a brighter future, I hope so, I'm not aware of them, but if they exist, please educate me. To answer your question, to me the solution relates to what I alluded to earlier. I think the problem is a lot of what we see is a reaction to foreign intervention in the region. Take America for example, with Biden's now infamous moment in Congress essentially admitting that America's alliance and support for Israel has been determined by Israel's ability to destablize the region. I think there needs to be less intervention and more of a handsoff approach. I don't think that will immediately make everything perfect, but it's an important step. Are we as a world returning to where powerful people use religion to justify evil acts that make themselves more rich and powerful (not that it ever really went away), and empires rise and fall with human rights completely ignored? Can the world even survive this kind of thing with how far technology has gotten? What kind of environmental damage is being done in Ukraine, Syria and now Gaza? I'm sure it dwarfs what is still happening in China, India, the US and basically everywhere. We have big collective, possibly world ending, problems that we can't even talk and debate about, because it seems like just about everyone feels the need to "pick a side" then they apologize away all the evil their own side does. And how Hamas became part of the left absolutely boggles my mind, they have zero shared values. Shared values matter nothing to people anymore, its not a left problem (hello the Donald and hard core Christians) its a world wide everyone problem. I mean, the powerful have always blinded the masses any way they can use deception and distractions, scapegoating the innocent to their own benefit. I agree that justice is justice, and evil should be called out regardless of where it is coming from. I think people defending Hamas are falling into a trap. I think Hamas is evil, and we may disagree here, but I think the IDF is evil as well. There are civilians across the board in the region being ideologically driven to the margins and damned physically, emotionally and mentally. Thank you for taking the time, and there is no doubt that I do get defensive and frustrated then lash out at times unfairly. Sometimes I even feel bad about, but other times not so much. However, I do appreciate the kind words. I'm not sure what greater issue you are speaking of, but if it is income disparity than I would largely agree. With the caveat that I do not think religious extremism is that easy to unwind. If it is something else, I would have to hear the rational. My guess on whether it is appropriate for this thread or not, it likely it would be fine as long as it is well thought out, well reasoned, follows threads rules then it would OK. Many times threads go on strange tangents (and that is often them at their best) with moderators not having any issues while the posts are quality. I would have to dig up some polls that I've posted in the past and I have not really read much of them post Oct 7th. But I also think that people need to have at least some empathy to the great tragedy that Israel endured. It was worse than 9/11 in many ways, way more personal (and by that I mean murdering in close quarters, people looking others in the eyes while they torture, raped and murdered) and look at the collective rage and grief that America went through. Look at the sympathy and support they received basically globally. Compare that to Israel, where in this thread (which I agree with you is better than the general public in many ways) people were already basically fantasizing about what awful things Israel was going to do in great detail with a mere hand wave about what had been done to them. Even now, I'm not sure if you read Desantis's comments, but he suggests that if Barbados was firing rockets at Florida he would wipe them off the face of the earth. People are acting as if Israel's actions are uniquely evil and I don't see that as the case. From the people I interact with where I live, the people I read on the internet, politicians and so on, I see it as sadly "normal". As for good politicians to follow and support you would need someone with a much more detailed view. Cerebrate1 would likely be able to comment. I only really look at things from a 10,000 ft view and then read about the major events. Everything else I'm just playing catch up on. I would be scared to suggest someone I have no fully researched only to have some awful comment they made be unearthed and then go through that mess. The only politician I know well enough to talk about is Bibi and I despise him. I do not think the IDF is evil, though their are likely people in the IDF leadership that I would consider that. The same way I do not think the Vietnam vets were evil. Lots of people under the duress of combat, the psychological pressure that militaries place on their soldiers to comply and disregard their regular morals is well tested and works on most people. I keep using the word Callous because I think it is very apt. They have decided enough is enough and they are going to do whatever it takes from a force perspective to destroy them. I disagree with that approach in multiple ways, firstly the cost is way to high, innocents are dying in huge numbers including babies. Next, I don't think they will succeed in destroying them, short term they could cripple but I believe there is a greater chance of them being stronger. others too but those are the big ones. What does frustrate me though is no one here is putting any blame for the massive casualties on Hamas. Ukraine is moving civilians away from the fighting, they are not asking them to stay and putting their bases in hospitals, schools and daycares. This should not be an effective way to gain support from the world. The human shield strategy is awful. When the war crimes were written I do not believe that the writers envisioned a group that would purposefully sacrifice their most vulnerable citizens so they basically made those targets off limits as long as they were not used militarily. Now you have a case where the IDF can attack these places under the strict reading of the laws and Hamas is purposefully trying to get as many dead innocents as possible. I also agree with you that destabilizing is not a good plan, I'm not sure it has ever worked out well for humanity. I do however think (extremely unpopularly) that Israel's values, Israeli's values more closely match mine than any other country or group in the area. I believe that with the right leadership they could truly be a beacon of good in the area (not that they are one to be clear). I wish another country and populous would step up, but in the people defense almost every other country is some form of awful dictatorship where they are just trying to survive. I've also read how for these reasons other people hold them to a higher standard, which I believe is fair. But it is not fair to hate them for not reaching it. I'm not sure how many of the posters here would have the same feelings if a close family member was raped, tortured, murdered and then the people guilty of that were massively celebrated. And I think your final sentence is bang on, and I have no idea how to fix it but it will take time. Quite a long time ago I watched a documentary that took children from Israel and Palestine and put them together to see what would happen. They sure hated each other at first, as they were taught to. But it really did not take that long until they realized that they were all just kids, no one was evil and they became friends had fun and all that. That sort of thing gives me hope, what doesn't is that the adults in power are hell bent on hate. Apologies for run-ons and mistakes. edit: my bad Desantis was talking about blowing up Bahamas and not Barbados. https://www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/ron-desantis-keeps-talking-about-blowing-up-the-bahamas/articleshow/106426259.cms Sorry if I hadn't made clear, income disparity is certainly part of it, but so is Foreign/US intervention, which in tandem with corrupt leaders, does create income disparity and poverty in the region. Certainly here in the states I'd point to income disparity as the chief contributor to crime.
I think regarding the reaction to 10/7 that's a good point to bring up, and this is a heinous mistake I personally am seriously guilty of (and I know plenty of Muslims in the West feel the same), where whenever some demon succeeds in creating harm and misery one of the first thoughts that creeps up is "oh fuck was it a Muslim" or "oh fuck the blowback on this is gonna suck". Which is fucked. Those problems have their place, but they should not take precedent over the crime that has actually already occurred. Israeli civilians never deserved Oct 7 and never should have had to endure what they did. That said, not to minimize that atrocity, if that is the reaction you have, which is a good reaction to have, I hope you then empathize with Palestinians who have dealt with similar atrocities for decades. In this recent conflict alone i think over 80 families have been completely wiped out, every single person in the immediate family. Over 30,000 dead, 10000 of which are children. That's just in the last three months, I can never stress enough that pre October 7, life wasn't great for Palestinians. People were still being killed, people were still being raped, people we still being imprisoned without cause or trial. That does not excuse retaliation towards civilians, but if we can (and should) have empathy for Israel, the Palestinians deserve the same tenfold.
Regarding DeSantis, you have no reason to know this because I don't post in USPMT, but I am very outspoken here in the states. I try to do my part to be politically active and illicit positive change. Frankly foreign policy-wise there are few role models in the American establishment, and every Republican gives me chills. I despise that thinking everywhere. From DeSantis, Haley, Bibi, Geert, Le Pen, Hamas, Bin Laden, Baghdadi, etc.
The reason I call the IDF evil is the same that neither of us call Hamas morally justified, as Magic Powers would put it "They think they are morally sound, and have convinced their soldiers to do the same". I'm not convinced the IDF is truly positioned as a defense of civilians but rather an arm of brutal occupation and militaristic expansion.
I agree that Hamas has done nothing to help the people it claims to represent. I have no clue where, as your Ukraine example states, they would move Gazans to, but they certainly aren't helping and are instead actively hurting. In an ideal world the current PA, with their purely diplomatic peaceful mission statement would have full sway and authority and they would be successful in their pursuit for liberty and self-actualization. Alternatively if we had a true rebel force resisting occupation we may have a more nuanced discussion, but Hamas doesn't fit that trope.
To your point that it's not fair to hate them for not reaching a higher standard for the atrocities they have suffered, sure, but by that logic it is truly a goddamn miracle all of Gaza does not actively militarily assist Hamas with how much they suffer and how often they suffer it.
To your final point, I wholeheartedly approve and agree. People hate what they do not know, experience or understand, but are only told to fear. I can personally attest to dozens of people I've encountered who had Islamaphobic notions who then learned after interacting with a real person. Dehumanization is real. It happened in Nazi Germany. I've seen it plenty in Israeli rhetoric post Oct 7 and I have no doubt it happens daily in Gaza as well. People just need to meet others first hand, but it's beautiful what doing so can do.
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