Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 12

On May 29 2021 23:15 JimmiC wrote:

The same thing basically happened in reverse as well with Jews fleeing the rest of the Arab world for Israel giving up their land and so on. Some was the pull factor of a Jewish homeland but a lot of it was push factors of violence persecution and so on. If we tried to reverse the Palestinian exodos would their also be a effort to return the land and so on to Jews in the countries they fled? How would we keep them safe as many of the countries they left still openly want to kill all the Jews?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries


With the religion and blood feuds I have no idea how to do it, but trying to turn back the clock on these things would be wildly complicated and as impossible as it sounds having them share the holy land is likely the "best one". It is the only option other then what we have now or one side destroying the other. The far right groups like Hamas are not interested in peace with Israel no matter the borders and the groups like Fatah (Yasser Arafat's political group), that have talked about a two state solution, have lost control and support. Maybe it will swing back, there were times when the Muslims and Jews got along, but that was generally when the Muslims and or Jews were waring with the Christians, there does not seem like many times in history when the three religions were all living in peace with each other.

On May 29 2021 17:19 MWY wrote:


A declaration of independence is not a declaration of war. It does not contain anything that declares violence against palestinians as far as i read it. It also mentions the UN partition plan and does not claim all the land.

"The State of Israel will be ready to cooperate with the organs and representatives of the United Nations in the implementation of the decision of November 29, 1947, and will strive for the establishment of the all-Palestinian economic unity. "

What prevented palestinians from doing the same? What prevented the arab league from just defending the UN partition plan's borders instead of immediately declaring war?

On May 30 2021 02:41 KwarK wrote:

A Declaration of Independence that declares that land that was part of one state is now part of the newly declared state is absolutely a declaration of war. The territory declared by Israel included land allocated to Palestine by the UN partition plan.

On May 30 2021 07:28 Broetchenholer wrote:
If the international community had allowed the Jewish survivors of the holocaust to settle land in Germany, there would have been a better cause for it. Germany was ruined, it was depopulated and it was responsible for the trauma. Clearing enough land to house the diaspora of Judaism, even forcefully, was more reasonable then giving half of Palestine to them.

On May 30 2021 07:14 Broetchenholer wrote:
Sorry, your question was not clear to me. Maybe i am stupid, maybe your question was not precise enough. Does not matter. So when i read your post, you seem to want to find out if the Jewish settlers were only settling land that was not already settled by "natives". I gave you a source for an example that clearly states, that a Jewish organisation bought land in the most fertile region of Palestine, settled their people and then forced the natives living there out. Some of them got money. I am sure they did not feel like someone alient to their society was taking their land from them. You seem to assume, that Palestine somehow had large patches of land that were waiting for someone to finally work them, because the Palestinians just let them lay dormant. And then the settlers could come in and take that land without hurting anyone. Palestine had not been just hit by a disaster killing of 50% of their population, it was a settled land like anywhere else around the mediteranean sea. There probably were areas that were able to be developed with modern technology, but let's change the variables a little bit.

After WW1, the British Empire is left as overlord of Poland. They have to decide what to do with the land. Poland is of course no state, it hasn't been one in 2 centuries, so why should the Polish people have a polish state. Instead, Britain decides that the Polish land is a perfect candidate for a new Jewish state. So, they allow Jewish settlers from Russia and other parts of Europe to build their own communities in the territory of Poland. After WW2, the Jewish controls more then half of the land of now Poland. Would you in this example say

a) the land wasn't part of a Catholic Polish state anyway, so you can't argue half the polish land was taken.
b) It wasn't Polish land. Did any of the land settled by Jewish people belong to Polish people before?

It is ridiculous how you assume that this land in Palestine was just free and that the people living their for centuries had no right to call it theirs. You can only make that argument if you believe that somehow palestinean people have less rights then polish or german or jewish. That their right for self determination is less real then that of other people.

Not saying you agree with that decision, but how many refugees did Poland accept in the migrant crisis? In Germany, 1 million refugees was very much doable and we got a huge spike in nationalism and a jump to the right in our politics.How can you not see that to the people of Palestine, this was an invasion?

On May 30 2021 17:33 MWY wrote:


Except that all of this is wrong. It was a british-controlled territory and those brits AND the UN wanted and supported Jews in creating an Israel.
Nice, while I gave you a direct quote from the declaration of independence that says the UN-partition plan is supported, you give me (again) zero sources for your claim how Israel claimed more land.

If we defeat them and capture western Galilee or territory on both sides of the road to Jerusalem, these areas will become part of the state. Why should we obligate ourselves to accept boundaries that in any case the Arabs don't accept?

On May 31 2021 01:25 KwarK wrote:
The UN representative also got murdered by Zionist terrorists but the UN came up with a partition plan which was completely ignored by the Zionists who preferred to settle the matter by arms. This is a historical fact that you can check yourself.

On May 31 2021 01:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:

Ultimately, that is how everything gets settled...'by arms'. When each side gets sick of killing each other they come up with a peace treaty. Usually both sides have factions within them that disagree with aspects of the peace agreement. However, the alternative of non-stop war is worse than accepting what factions within each side views as "poor terms".

Each side usually claims to have "history on their side". Each side comes up with a coherent narrative backing their actions.

Rinse and Repeat.

My personal solution: move to where there are less people so this ongoing cycle happens less often. Canada and non-urban USA are great places to live.

I think on a per square km basis Canada is one of the least populated countries on earth. Its awesome.

On May 31 2021 01:25 KwarK wrote:

Your rebuttal is wrong, my statement was correct.

You're pretending that there was a British/UN support for the Israeli declaration of independence but there was not. The British had been actively warring with Zionist forces, turning around ships of Jewish refugees to protect the Palestinians, and getting murdered by Zionist terror attacks. Eventually they just left with a single Palestine behind them. The UN representative also got murdered by Zionist terrorists but the UN came up with a partition plan which was completely ignored by the Zionists who preferred to settle the matter by arms. This is a historical fact that you can check yourself.
David Ben-Gurion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence#Borders

They explicitly claimed that whatever land they could seize by arms would be Israel. There is no context in which this isn't a declaration of war.

JERUSALEM — A diverse coalition of Israeli opposition parties said Sunday that they have the votes to form a unity government to unseat Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s longest-serving leader and its dominant political figure for more than a decade.

Under their agreement, reached after weeks of negotiations spearheaded by centrist opposition leader Yair Lapid, former Netanyahu defense minister and ally Naftali Bennett will lead a power-sharing government.

“We could go to fifth elections, sixth elections, until our home falls upon us, or we could stop the madness and take responsibility,” Bennett said in a televised statement Sunday evening. “Today, I would like to announce that I intend to join my friend Yair Lapid in forming a unity government.”

Netanyahu has been struggling to hold onto power after four inconclusive elections in the past two years while facing an ongoing corruption trial. Bennett is one of several former loyalists who have flirted with joining the so-called change coalition, a collection of parties that span the political spectrum but share a desire to end Netanyahu’s 12-year tenure.

On May 30 2021 18:56 MWY wrote:


Why that comparison is flawed:
1. Palestine had never been a state. Never in history. I had always been a region in a larger state or empire, sometimes it was split up between empires.
2. I'm not even sure when or if people identified as palestinians before the 20. century. I think Wiki states something that the palestine national identity was even somewhat born within the context of the conflict with the zionists.
3. Jews had been living there for ages before they were displaced by several states/empires. There were even some jews still living there.

Let's say, all of that was the case for poland and the land was sparsely populated enough for both people to live peacefully besides eachother. Let's also assume that some displacement was necessary (it obviously would be) but you manage to actually displace very few people and compensate them fairly. In doing so, you (as the british) allow both people to form a state of their own and live independently. Now if we add the terribly violent historical context of that time, doesn't that sound like a very civil solution?

Lastly, adressing the invasion talk (again), in around 1920, when the first progroms against jews started to happen, there were about as many jews in Palestine as there are muslims in germany right now. Population overall was less than a million people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

On May 31 2021 03:15 Doublemint wrote:
Israeli opposition parties reach agreement to oust Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu@WaPo



now that is quite the development.