EPTThings Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 10
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9338 Posts
On May 26 2021 07:22 cLutZ wrote: Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza almost 2 decades ago and no new settlements have been allowed. Gaza is even more extremist than the West Bank, where the settlements are happening. Indeed, doing the same thing in the WB was the plan of the then PM of Israel, but it was so instantaneously disastrous that his coalition blew up and the right leaning Likud was ushered into power in the wake of the total failure of the dismantling settlements policy. They are still trying to get Palestinians evicted from Sheikh Jarrah, to be replaced by Jewish people, and that case is going to the Supreme Court. In the meantime they are spraying their homes and any protestors with shit smelling putrid water. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On May 26 2021 07:41 Jockmcplop wrote: They are still trying to get Palestinians evicted from Sheikh Jarrah, to be replaced by Jewish people, and that case is going to the Supreme Court. In the meantime they are spraying their homes and any protestors with shit smelling putrid water. That can all be true, but its not the cause of conflict. Its occasionally a convenient excuse. The conflict is, at its essence, about the existence of Israel as a non-Islamic state. | ||
KwarK
United States41961 Posts
On May 26 2021 08:22 cLutZ wrote: That can all be true, but its not the cause of conflict. Its occasionally a convenient excuse. The conflict is, at its essence, about the existence of Israel as a non-Islamic state. There are lots of non Islamic states. Peru, for example, isn’t Islamic. Are the people of Palestine also in conflict with Peru or is it something else that Israel is doing, other than being non Islamic, that could be to blame? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On May 26 2021 11:36 KwarK wrote: There are lots of non Islamic states. Peru, for example, isn’t Islamic. Are the people of Palestine also in conflict with Peru or is it something else that Israel is doing, other than being non Islamic, that could be to blame? Peru is simply lower on the priority list. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9338 Posts
Can you imagine if someone said this kind of thing about Israel? Probably it would result in a court date. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On May 26 2021 07:22 cLutZ wrote: Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza almost 2 decades ago and no new settlements have been allowed. Gaza is even more extremist than the West Bank, where the settlements are happening. Indeed, doing the same thing in the WB was the plan of the then PM of Israel, but it was so instantaneously disastrous that his coalition blew up and the right leaning Likud was ushered into power in the wake of the total failure of the dismantling settlements policy. But Israel is still expanding and Palestinians territories are shrinking, so how exactly is that proving that point irrelevant when as you say the settlements in the West Bank are still occuring? People living in Gaza have effectively already been permanently evicted. It just means, as you say, that Gaza Strip is simply lower on the priority list. | ||
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KwarK
United States41961 Posts
Why have we not heard more about the conflict between Palestine and Peru? To the casual observer it would seem that there is no conflict and that Palestine is not in conflict with all non Islamic states. As an informed observer perhaps you can elaborate upon the conflict. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1847 Posts
So, I assume you are talking about Hamas here, not Palestine or Islam as a whole. And your theory is, that Hamas is fighting for a global jihad and after having turned Israel into a Muslim state, would continue with the next target an eventually would attack Peru to turn them into a Muslim state? Is that your belief? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On May 27 2021 02:34 Jockmcplop wrote: Can you imagine if someone said this kind of thing about Israel? Probably it would result in a court date. The consistent ethnic cleansing of mid east territories of nonMuslim populations is well documented. See, e.g. Jews and Christians. On May 27 2021 06:26 KwarK wrote: Why have we not heard more about the conflict between Palestine and Peru? To the casual observer it would seem that there is no conflict and that Palestine is not in conflict with all non Islamic states. As an informed observer perhaps you can elaborate upon the conflict. This question is akin to questioning why the Norsemen weren't concerned about the Umayyad Caliphate following the Battle of Tours. This is a simple case of limited abilities of force projection. On May 27 2021 06:43 Broetchenholer wrote: So, I assume you are talking about Hamas here, not Palestine or Islam as a whole. And your theory is, that Hamas is fighting for a global jihad and after having turned Israel into a Muslim state, would continue with the next target an eventually would attack Peru to turn them into a Muslim state? Is that your belief? Hamas is just a small part of a larger network of Islamic supremacist states and organizations that envision a worldwide caliphate. They are the drivers of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but don't care much about the fate of the Palestinians. They are a useful mascot in this smaller battle, but if they cared about Palestinian welfare their actions would be nearly the opposite of what current large players, like Iran, actually do. | ||
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KwarK
United States41961 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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KwarK
United States41961 Posts
On May 27 2021 23:12 JimmiC wrote: No he said Hamas along with other Islamic supermisists states are after a world wide caliphate. And that they do not care about the Palestinians. It is fine to disagree with his point. It is not fine to make up his point, make it offense and argue against that. What gets me is how your reading comprehension goes out the window and your rage way up whenever Israel is involved. At no point in the exchange with me did he say Hamas and earlier in the exchange I specified Palestine and Peru (as a hypothetical non Islamic country). It was made clear that the conflicting parties being discussed were Israel/Peru and Palestine. + Show Spoiler + On May 27 2021 21:09 cLutZ wrote: This question is akin to questioning why the Norsemen weren't concerned about the Umayyad Caliphate following the Battle of Tours. This is a simple case of limited abilities of force projection. In your haste to follow me topic to topic trying to start dumb arguments you have failed to actually read what was being said. Or you’re just lying again. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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KwarK
United States41961 Posts
On May 28 2021 00:00 JimmiC wrote: Nope, I just read what he wrote and more or less quoted it, this is from the post directly above yours. full spoilered. + Show Spoiler + On May 27 2021 21:09 cLutZ wrote: The consistent ethnic cleansing of mid east territories of nonMuslim populations is well documented. See, e.g. Jews and Christians. This question is akin to questioning why the Norsemen weren't concerned about the Umayyad Caliphate following the Battle of Tours. This is a simple case of limited abilities of force projection. Hamas is just a small part of a larger network of Islamic supremacist states and organizations that envision a worldwide caliphate. They are the drivers of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but don't care much about the fate of the Palestinians. They are a useful mascot in this smaller battle, but if they cared about Palestinian welfare their actions would be nearly the opposite of what current large players, like Iran, actually do. Two different exchanges. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On May 27 2021 23:09 KwarK wrote: What gets me is that otherwise rational people make these weird claims whenever Israel is involved. The Palestinians are apparently bent on global conquest and engaged in offensive empire building against everyone but, due to force projection limitations, are currently doing most of their empire building in Palestine. Your problem is you are thinking Palestine is an independent actor, when in the context of this conflict, it is one of the least important actors. They are a convenient source of recruitment for local terrorists, but the major players on that side of the conflict are perfectly willing to lose Palestinian lives at huge ratios like 20-1 to advance their goals. And also, your rebuttal makes no sense. A militarily weak entity can't project force across the world. | ||
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KwarK
United States41961 Posts
On May 28 2021 02:46 cLutZ wrote: Your problem is you are thinking Palestine is an independent actor, when in the context of this conflict, it is one of the least important actors. They are a convenient source of recruitment for local terrorists, but the major players on that side of the conflict are perfectly willing to lose Palestinian lives at huge ratios like 20-1 to advance their goals. And also, your rebuttal makes no sense. A militarily weak entity can't project force across the world. It seems a very long reach in an attempt to make the Palestinians the attackers. They’re in Palestine and trying to defend their homes and live their lives in their own land but you’re positing that securing their own villages is just the first step on their Islamic empire building. The lack of any evidence of empire building doesn’t, to you, imply that they’re not trying to establish a global Islamic caliphate, only that they’re bad at it. The more obvious take on it, for me, is that the Palestinians are defending their homes. Their objection to Israel isn’t that it’s a non Islamic state, it’s that Israel has been destroying their homes. Fix the destruction of homes and the problem is done. That would be a better explanation for why their ire seems focused exclusively on the non Islamic state that is destroying their homes and not the others. Your hypothesis that they hate all non Islamic states equally and that they focus on Israel due to proximity is far fetched and appears intended to turn them into the aggressors. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On May 28 2021 02:55 KwarK wrote: It seems a very long reach in an attempt to make the Palestinians the attackers. They’re in Palestine and trying to defend their homes and live their lives in their own land but you’re positing that securing their own villages is just the first step on their Islamic empire building. The lack of any evidence of empire building doesn’t, to you, imply that they’re not trying to establish a global Islamic caliphate, only that they’re bad at it. The more obvious take on it, for me, is that the Palestinians are defending their homes. Their objection to Israel isn’t that it’s a non Islamic state, it’s that Israel has been destroying their homes. Fix the destruction of homes and the problem is done. That would be a better explanation for why their ire seems focused exclusively on the non Islamic state that is destroying their homes and not the others. Your hypothesis that they hate all non Islamic states equally and that they focus on Israel due to proximity is far fetched and appears intended to turn them into the aggressors. Well, generally, they are the aggressors in that they had multiple chances to have an independent state that would have preserved older borders and immediately halted all settlements, but instead of accepting those deals they responded with various intifadas. Many local orgs have "from the river to the sea" language in their mottos, which shows the idea that stopping settlements would do nothing to solve their ire (as does the Gaza situation). But also they are sponsored by, for instance, Iran, who is not destroying their home (to use your own steelman language), and thus they are willing participants in Iran and its allies larger regional project, which, while it targets its greatest amount of ire at the local, Jewish (both IMO are particularly infuriating for the coalition) state, they are much more ambitious. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1847 Posts
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