2020 Presidential Debate - Page 26

On October 02 2020 06:51 farvacola wrote:

The joke goes that police don’t do nudie calendars like their firemen counterparts because they wouldn’t be able to cover up all the fashy tattoos

On October 02 2020 06:40 Nevuk wrote:
It's a total philosophical contradiction to their position to even pretend to work as police. If they were less staunch in their beliefs, they wouldn't be doing anything they are doing. They're idealists.

This isn't true of police and white supremacy, so it's not surprising that they infiltrate each other. Police also infiltrate left wing groups, though there's generally less cause for it in the antifa style groups... it's just a short hand for leftist anti-authoritarians who aren't avowed pacifists. Anti-authoritarians (many of whom are anti-hierarchies in general) won't centralize as a group and generally won't travel, either.

This isn't to say that there aren't dangerous leftist groups - ELF, weather underground types, PETA-style groups, etc. are a lot more dangerous but generally have been falling in relevance, and are almost certainly targets for undercover work - just that antifa is literally nothing but a name for individuals occupying a certain area of political beliefs.

Asking antifa to disavow something is like asking clouds to disavow donuts. It's a completely nonsensical demand. Be specific when talking about them. There are individual groups responsible for various acts, and it is laziness from the MSM and opportunism from right wing media to use antifa instead.


edit:
Also, Trump has lost Scott Adams, the creator of dilbert, over how bad his white supremacy answer was. Adams was the last intellectual(pseudo or not - he was always capable of being thought provoking in a non-partisan way) I know of on Trump's side, so that's a pretty bad sign.

On October 02 2020 07:08 WombaT wrote:

Scott Adams greatly confuses me. He’s an obviously bright guy but yet has this overly generous perception of the Trump phenomenon and can’t seem to join the dots as to why Trump isn’t willing to disavow white supremacy.

He can simultaneously break down the atypical nature of Trump and his popularity despite breaking untold number of historical conventions re civility etc quite well, but not that Trump doesn’t disavow white supremacists because it suits him to not alienate that part of his base.

On October 02 2020 07:22 Gorsameth wrote:
Probably because he doesn't want to accept what that concept might say about his as a fellow Trump follower?

On October 02 2020 07:20 Mohdoo wrote:
It is super freaking weird seeing Proud Boys somehow normalized to conservatives. It is fascinating to watch how people who used to say Trump will never represent the party, over years of being conditioned, are at a point where they defend Proud Boys. And its like they don't even realize anything changed in any of their beliefs. Since they continued to think...what they themselves think, it feels continuous to them. They never have a sensation of having changed beliefs, since to them, it is just a difference of circumstances now.

I can't wait to read about eventually. Some super interesting psychology in conservative circles right now.

On October 02 2020 07:08 WombaT wrote:

Scott Adams greatly confuses me. He’s an obviously bright guy but yet has this overly generous perception of the Trump phenomenon and can’t seem to join the dots as to why Trump isn’t willing to disavow white supremacy.

He can simultaneously break down the atypical nature of Trump and his popularity despite breaking untold number of historical conventions re civility etc quite well, but not that Trump doesn’t disavow white supremacists because it suits him to not alienate that part of his base.

On October 02 2020 08:09 GoTuNk! wrote:
This astonishing gaslighting that Trump is a secret white supremacist, and that so many people on this forum seem to believe is completely devoid of reason. It took me 5 minutes of youtube search to find multiple videos of Trump "disavowing" white supremacy in clear terms trough the years.

+ Show Spoiler +

On the debate he clearly said "sure, I'll do that" when asked to disavow it (again) and wanted to move the ball to Biden who keeps flip flopping on issues and avoiding them to appeal both the moderate and radical parts of the dem party, anyone trying to understand something else is just intelectually dishonest. He could have been more clear but it's pretty obvious what he meant.
Moreover, Yesterday's clarification:
+ Show Spoiler +

Dude was basically a moderate democrat from NY most of his life, the idea that he is some secret southern confederate itching to harm black people is so stupid it's really painful to watch, otherwise smart people, believe it (or pretend to believe it?)

I honestly think this smear campaign actually helps him because of how absurd and lame it is (they tried the same in 2016); the covid line of atack is by far the best the dems have, name calling, not so much. The same goes to Trump; instead of calling Biden senile and weak, he should focus exclusively on him being a supporters of rioters and looters that will raise taxes and pack the courts, destroying the american way of life.

On October 02 2020 08:33 JimmiC wrote:
There is no smear campaign. He did say sure I'll disavow them, then he asked who which white supremist and Biden said proud boys and he said "proudboys stand back and stand by". Which is not disavowing its shouting them out. It was a solfball question that he whiffed on huge. Trump failed hard on the debate no one is talking about his oneliners because they were awful and he came off like a terrible person and the biggest moment he had the biggest Gaffe. Pretty embarrassing to get embarrassed by a "senile" old man.


As to him not knowing them, um LOL, OK so he didn't know them, asked for a white supremist group, heard the name and said stand back and stand by to them? IS that better? No it is worse because it is just as racist but super embarrassing that a sitting president wouldn't know a group of its size and prominence. I mean he could have slept through all the briefings but the still have been talked about on Fox news. So if you think he that dumb, which is even dumber than I think he is, and I think he is pretty dumb.


It has hurt him in the polls not helped him, but not sure a two party candidate can fall much lower.

Biden has not supported looters or rioters, he has supported peaceful protest. Trump yelling it does not make it true.

The markets are excited for Biden and hopeful for a Dem senate, this almost never happens, but this time they want stability, and any raise in taxes will be offset by the 2 trillion dollar stimulus package.

Sounds like he is going to finish packing the court, I guess we will see if the Dems pack it themselves. It is too bad that instead of people bragging about how partisan he is in doing this, they were bragging about the great judges being put in place. Judges are not supposed to support the parties, that is kinda the point of the judiciary. Look for it to lose some power as it becomes obvious to everyone (lots do to Trump and other republican bragging) that it is no longer serving that purpose.

edit: @ wombat the birther THINGS, he has also said it about Harris. Clearly it is one of his gotos

On October 02 2020 08:52 Nevuk wrote:
His father was also arrested during a KKK march. Being a democrat in the 90s doesn't mean you aren't racist in 2020. White supremacists tend to raise white supremacists. Trump also faced many racial discrimination lawsuits in the 70s and 80s. Him doing racist shit was not new, even before his 2015 speech about Rapists and Murderer immigrants.

There's no solid evidence that Trump isn't one aside from him stating that he isn't, and plenty of evidence that he is one. Normally, there doesn't need to be evidence that someone isn't a white supremacist for that assumption to be a decent one (I don't even assume most of Trump's defenders are racists). Trump is an exception, due to the volume and frequency of his appeals.

"Very fine people on both sides" about literal goddamn nazis puts to rest any notion that he can get away with only his insistence that he isn't a white supremacist as sufficient.

Trump being a racist isn't the focus of anyone's attacks in particular, because it's already baked in to his numbers. His refusal to disavow the Proud boys was a self-inflicted wound, and just a continuation of a pattern of openly racist behavior.

I doubt his refusal to disavow Proud boys affected his polling. The terrible, all over the place debate performance did.

Those who still support him are either fine with him being a racist, don't care about the issue in the slightest, or are mister magoo level blind to the evidence. There's little point in re-litigating the issue, and I doubt democrats are interested in doing so.

On October 02 2020 08:09 GoTuNk! wrote:
This astonishing gaslighting that Trump is a secret white supremacist, and that so many people on this forum seem to believe is completely devoid of reason. It took me 5 minutes of youtube search to find multiple videos of Trump "disavowing" white supremacy in clear terms trough the years.

+ Show Spoiler +

On the debate he clearly said "sure, I'll do that" when asked to disavow it (again) and wanted to move the ball to Biden who keeps flip flopping on issues and avoiding them to appeal both the moderate and radical parts of the dem party, anyone trying to understand something else is just intelectually dishonest. He could have been more clear but it's pretty obvious what he meant.
Moreover, Yesterday's clarification:
+ Show Spoiler +

Dude was basically a moderate democrat from NY most of his life, the idea that he is some secret southern confederate itching to harm black people is so stupid it's really painful to watch, otherwise smart people, believe it (or pretend to believe it?)

I honestly think this smear campaign actually helps him because of how absurd and lame it is (they tried the same in 2016); the covid line of atack is by far the best the dems have, name calling, not so much. The same goes to Trump; instead of calling Biden senile and weak, he should focus exclusively on him being a supporters of rioters and looters that will raise taxes and pack the courts, destroying the american way of life.

On October 02 2020 08:58 Danglars wrote:

Debates aren't fair and he did an unforced error on that one (after doing two-three disavowals correctly just before it).

I don't really think it moved most people, because Biden's so far up his own ass on Antifa that he couldn't manage some generic "violence on all sides" platitude. Polling supports this for now. The guys that think he's the second coming of Hitler here to bring down democracy and kill people while doing it won't change their mind on better denials, and people that hear the whole exchange aren't going to suddenly think this is the big exposé. A few might stay home instead of voting, though, for that fumble along with the way he conducted himself.