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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
United Kingdom10017 Posts
On September 08 2026 19:53 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2026 06:42 KwarK wrote:On September 08 2026 02:33 oBlade wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:22 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:21 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:16 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:02 LightSpectra wrote:
Cisgender men benefit the most from a society that enforces a binary gender dichotomy in visible (e.g. separated bathrooms and sports) and invisible ways (e.g. prejudicial stereotypes). The fact that it seems to be working perfectly fine for you and you don't see any reason to change it, whereas women and trans people of every gender are constantly trying to vocalize the innumerable ways society has made life unnecessarily harder for them, should be a cause for introspection. In what ways are women not benefiting from sports being split by gender? Wasn’t getting women’s professional sports a big deal? It was to all the women I know. Not when trans women are gatekept out of them for irrational and inconsistent cries of "biology". So if it’s not perfect than it’s shit, you’re sounding like some one else around here. All people of all genders are allowed in “men’s” sports. Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable. If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man Great angle in plain sight, he doesn't know the answer to that one either. It’s a bad faith question. The answer varies significantly on the context. For example you’re not a man. By taking a complicated subject and ignoring all the factors that make it complicated you invite only bad answers which is, of course, the purpose of the bad faith question. "Varies," not impossible. "Significantly" = reality-warpingly dubious. The answer can be as extensive as you feel you need to explain what a man is, but if you can't even manage the simple questions there's no hope for you on anything more complicated.
"Oh crap, he's mentioned that its complicated. Maybe if I just insist that its simple everyone will forget that happened."
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On September 08 2026 19:56 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2026 19:53 oBlade wrote:On September 08 2026 06:42 KwarK wrote:On September 08 2026 02:33 oBlade wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:22 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:21 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:16 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
In what ways are women not benefiting from sports being split by gender? Wasn’t getting women’s professional sports a big deal? It was to all the women I know. Not when trans women are gatekept out of them for irrational and inconsistent cries of "biology". So if it’s not perfect than it’s shit, you’re sounding like some one else around here. All people of all genders are allowed in “men’s” sports. Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable. If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man Great angle in plain sight, he doesn't know the answer to that one either. It’s a bad faith question. The answer varies significantly on the context. For example you’re not a man. By taking a complicated subject and ignoring all the factors that make it complicated you invite only bad answers which is, of course, the purpose of the bad faith question. "Varies," not impossible. "Significantly" = reality-warpingly dubious. The answer can be as extensive as you feel you need to explain what a man is, but if you can't even manage the simple questions there's no hope for you on anything more complicated. "Oh crap, he's mentioned that its complicated. Maybe if I just insist that its simple everyone will forget that happened."
Buddy, let's grow up. The question is simple. Questions are allowed to be simple. "What's a computer" is a simple question and it's not bad faith just because one can fill pages of complicated explanation in answering it.
The scope of answering it is your own volition but in real life if you specifically use a word and then can't say what it means you get laughed out of the room. Especially if the word is on the level of something like "man." "It's not women's sports, it's non-men sports." "What is a man?" "Omg bad faith alarm." Now you aren't KwarK but I'd say the same thing to him, but you thought it was important to not answer for him.
You can define a computer pretty simply too so using a word like "man" and then going "That's complicated" is crapping out for either "I don't know" or "Answering would expose something inconvenient I don't want to confront so your normal question must have been a gotcha."
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On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:22 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:21 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:16 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:02 LightSpectra wrote:
Cisgender men benefit the most from a society that enforces a binary gender dichotomy in visible (e.g. separated bathrooms and sports) and invisible ways (e.g. prejudicial stereotypes). The fact that it seems to be working perfectly fine for you and you don't see any reason to change it, whereas women and trans people of every gender are constantly trying to vocalize the innumerable ways society has made life unnecessarily harder for them, should be a cause for introspection. In what ways are women not benefiting from sports being split by gender? Wasn’t getting women’s professional sports a big deal? It was to all the women I know. Not when trans women are gatekept out of them for irrational and inconsistent cries of "biology". So if it’s not perfect than it’s shit, you’re sounding like some one else around here. All people of all genders are allowed in “men’s” sports. Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable. If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man
We've already gone down this rabbit hole. No definition is going to be completely satisfying or precisely all-encompassing, because the categories of sex become messier the more we understand about biology, genetics, psychology, and other related branches of science.
One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. We could say that a man / someone who is male usually-but-not-always has XY chromosomes, usually-but-not-always has testes, usually-but-not-always produces sperm, usually-but-not-always can grow facial hair, and usually-but-not-always has a ton of other features.
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A man is a miserable pile of secrets an adult who prefers to identify with he/him pronouns (or whose caretakers do so, for people incapable of verbalizing their preference because of disability).
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On September 08 2026 19:48 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2026 19:25 LightSpectra wrote: People who self identify as trans are already falling off Have you ever noticed the number of left-handed people started mysteriously rising after it stopped being socially acceptable to spank kids for doing things with their left hands? That's just sinister.
Took me a second, wp.
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On September 08 2026 12:08 LightSpectra wrote:
I don't oppose something like a minimum time lapse between a declaration of gender transitioning and being able to participate in women's leagues. There are a small number of obvious bad faith actors but they'll get their way if they're used as an excuse for complete trans exclusion.
I think likely case by case to keep the bad actors out makes sense. Outside of the UFC, the pro leagues seem to be pretty sensible.
The child sports is going to be much more of a challenge as you just have volunteers trying to deal with all these angry people. Even the ones trying hard are likely not equipped to deal with it.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On September 08 2026 19:48 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2026 19:25 LightSpectra wrote: People who self identify as trans are already falling off Have you ever noticed the number of left-handed people started mysteriously rising after it stopped being socially acceptable to spank kids for doing things with their left hands? That's just sinister.
Very dexterous of you, well played
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On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:22 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:21 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:16 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:02 LightSpectra wrote:
Cisgender men benefit the most from a society that enforces a binary gender dichotomy in visible (e.g. separated bathrooms and sports) and invisible ways (e.g. prejudicial stereotypes). The fact that it seems to be working perfectly fine for you and you don't see any reason to change it, whereas women and trans people of every gender are constantly trying to vocalize the innumerable ways society has made life unnecessarily harder for them, should be a cause for introspection. In what ways are women not benefiting from sports being split by gender? Wasn’t getting women’s professional sports a big deal? It was to all the women I know. Not when trans women are gatekept out of them for irrational and inconsistent cries of "biology". So if it’s not perfect than it’s shit, you’re sounding like some one else around here. All people of all genders are allowed in “men’s” sports. Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable. If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did.
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On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:22 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:21 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:16 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:02 LightSpectra wrote:
Cisgender men benefit the most from a society that enforces a binary gender dichotomy in visible (e.g. separated bathrooms and sports) and invisible ways (e.g. prejudicial stereotypes). The fact that it seems to be working perfectly fine for you and you don't see any reason to change it, whereas women and trans people of every gender are constantly trying to vocalize the innumerable ways society has made life unnecessarily harder for them, should be a cause for introspection. In what ways are women not benefiting from sports being split by gender? Wasn’t getting women’s professional sports a big deal? It was to all the women I know. Not when trans women are gatekept out of them for irrational and inconsistent cries of "biology". So if it’s not perfect than it’s shit, you’re sounding like some one else around here. All people of all genders are allowed in “men’s” sports. Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable. If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did.
I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community.
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On September 09 2026 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:22 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:21 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:16 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:02 LightSpectra wrote:
Cisgender men benefit the most from a society that enforces a binary gender dichotomy in visible (e.g. separated bathrooms and sports) and invisible ways (e.g. prejudicial stereotypes). The fact that it seems to be working perfectly fine for you and you don't see any reason to change it, whereas women and trans people of every gender are constantly trying to vocalize the innumerable ways society has made life unnecessarily harder for them, should be a cause for introspection. In what ways are women not benefiting from sports being split by gender? Wasn’t getting women’s professional sports a big deal? It was to all the women I know. Not when trans women are gatekept out of them for irrational and inconsistent cries of "biology". So if it’s not perfect than it’s shit, you’re sounding like some one else around here. All people of all genders are allowed in “men’s” sports. Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable. If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did. I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community. Ok, what is a male?
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On September 09 2026 01:46 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2026 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:22 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:21 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:16 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
In what ways are women not benefiting from sports being split by gender? Wasn’t getting women’s professional sports a big deal? It was to all the women I know. Not when trans women are gatekept out of them for irrational and inconsistent cries of "biology". So if it’s not perfect than it’s shit, you’re sounding like some one else around here. All people of all genders are allowed in “men’s” sports. Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable. If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did. I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community. Ok, what is a male?
I answered it in the post you replied to (the part you cut out). It's the very next sentence 
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On September 09 2026 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2026 01:46 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:22 Billyboy wrote:On September 07 2026 06:21 LightSpectra wrote:
[quote]
Not when trans women are gatekept out of them for irrational and inconsistent cries of "biology". So if it’s not perfect than it’s shit, you’re sounding like some one else around here. All people of all genders are allowed in “men’s” sports. Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable. If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did. I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community. Ok, what is a male? I answered it in the post you replied to (the part you cut out). It's the very next sentence Theres no biological basis for male and female that make them less ambiguous than man and woman? When I talk about disorders that ambiguate male and female, your response would be that both of those are already ambiguous?
I thought it was known and uncontroversial that the problem lies in traits that infer sex, not that sex itself is just as ambiguous as the wider categories of man and woman. If I ask a biologist if the term male is well-defined, the biologist would have to respond that No, it’s an ambiguous term?
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On September 09 2026 01:53 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2026 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:46 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:22 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
So if it’s not perfect than it’s shit, you’re sounding like some one else around here. All people of all genders are allowed in “men’s” sports. Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable. If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did. I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community. Ok, what is a male? I answered it in the post you replied to (the part you cut out). It's the very next sentence Theres no biological basis for male and female that make them less ambiguous than man and woman? When I talk about disorders that ambiguate male and female, your response would be that both of those are already ambiguous? I thought it was known and uncontroversial that the problem lies in traits that infer sex, not that sex itself is just as ambiguous as the wider categories of man and woman. If I ask a biologist if the term male is well-defined, the biologist would have to respond that No, it’s an ambiguous term?
How would a biologist define male?
What specific part(s) of DPB's definition do you disagree with?
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On September 09 2026 02:42 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2026 01:53 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:46 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:
[quote]
Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable.
If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did. I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community. Ok, what is a male? I answered it in the post you replied to (the part you cut out). It's the very next sentence Theres no biological basis for male and female that make them less ambiguous than man and woman? When I talk about disorders that ambiguate male and female, your response would be that both of those are already ambiguous? I thought it was known and uncontroversial that the problem lies in traits that infer sex, not that sex itself is just as ambiguous as the wider categories of man and woman. If I ask a biologist if the term male is well-defined, the biologist would have to respond that No, it’s an ambiguous term? How would a biologist define male? Ask a biologist. I'm asking DPB if he thinks the biologist's answer would be the same ambiguous answer as if he had asked a biologist what a man is.
What specific part(s) of DPB's definition do you disagree with? That male and female brings up the same issues of ambiguity as is contained in man and woman. I think it is a giant level of ambiguity removed. You're removing the ambiguity surrounding the mixed reference to sex and gender.
So is the problem with "adult human male" that not all males are men, or that males are just as interesting/controversial/ambiguous as men?
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On September 09 2026 03:04 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2026 02:42 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 09 2026 01:53 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:46 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did. I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community. Ok, what is a male? I answered it in the post you replied to (the part you cut out). It's the very next sentence Theres no biological basis for male and female that make them less ambiguous than man and woman? When I talk about disorders that ambiguate male and female, your response would be that both of those are already ambiguous? I thought it was known and uncontroversial that the problem lies in traits that infer sex, not that sex itself is just as ambiguous as the wider categories of man and woman. If I ask a biologist if the term male is well-defined, the biologist would have to respond that No, it’s an ambiguous term? How would a biologist define male? Ask a biologist. I'm asking DPB if he thinks the biologist's answer would be the same ambiguous answer as if he had asked a biologist what a man is. That male and female brings up the same issues of ambiguity as is contained in man and woman. I think it is a giant level of ambiguity removed. You're removing the ambiguity surrounding the mixed reference to sex and gender. So is the problem with "adult human male" that not all males are men, or that males are just as interesting/controversial/ambiguous as men?
A biologist would give the standard and then note that it isn’t binary and note biological sex involves a combination of chromosomes, genes, gonads, and hormones. Natural variations, such as intersex traits, mean that not every individual fits neatly into standard categorical definitions.
Because scientists don’t care about your politics.
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On September 09 2026 03:04 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2026 02:42 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 09 2026 01:53 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:46 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did. I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community. Ok, what is a male? I answered it in the post you replied to (the part you cut out). It's the very next sentence Theres no biological basis for male and female that make them less ambiguous than man and woman? When I talk about disorders that ambiguate male and female, your response would be that both of those are already ambiguous? I thought it was known and uncontroversial that the problem lies in traits that infer sex, not that sex itself is just as ambiguous as the wider categories of man and woman. If I ask a biologist if the term male is well-defined, the biologist would have to respond that No, it’s an ambiguous term? How would a biologist define male? Ask a biologist. I'm asking DPB if he thinks the biologist's answer would be the same ambiguous answer as if he had asked a biologist what a man is. That male and female brings up the same issues of ambiguity as is contained in man and woman. I think it is a giant level of ambiguity removed. You're removing the ambiguity surrounding the mixed reference to sex and gender. So is the problem with "adult human male" that not all males are men, or that males are just as interesting/controversial/ambiguous as men?
Because when you already accepted the premise that thing A is complicated to define, saying "oh A is B" is just a substitution. And if you accept that substitution, then it follows that defining A is complicated, and so must be B. Its just the most basic logic. Or you could say that is not what you mean, A and B are not equal, but A is a subset of B, in which case you still are left with the same issues, if not more: You still have the complicated part of defining all the things that make A, but now they also have to be compatible with a larger set of definitions that describe B so something like "All As are also Bs, but not all Bs have to be As" is satisfied.
But you narrowed down the problem by crossing "adult" and "human" off the list.
I do find it funny that the people who attempt to weaponise seemingly basic logic like Walsh and other dipshits of his calibre are seemingly the least equipped to navigate the premise they created 
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On September 09 2026 01:53 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2026 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:46 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:On September 07 2026 06:22 Billyboy wrote:
[quote]
So if it’s not perfect than it’s shit, you’re sounding like some one else around here. All people of all genders are allowed in “men’s” sports. Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable. If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did. I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community. Ok, what is a male? I answered it in the post you replied to (the part you cut out). It's the very next sentence Theres no biological basis for male and female that make them less ambiguous than man and woman? When I talk about disorders that ambiguate male and female, your response would be that both of those are already ambiguous? I thought it was known and uncontroversial that the problem lies in traits that infer sex, not that sex itself is just as ambiguous as the wider categories of man and woman. If I ask a biologist if the term male is well-defined, the biologist would have to respond that No, it’s an ambiguous term?
I think if you asked a biologist if 100% of all males (or men) absolutely must have testes, or any of the other "usually-but-not-always" examples I listed, I think they would say that it's not necessarily 100% and that it's usually-but-not-always present. It might be 99%. Or 95%. Or it could be much lower too, depending on the trait. If not having a 100% foolproof criterion for inclusion/exclusion makes the concept "ambiguous" or not perfectly defined, then okay, but to reiterate part of the post you left out: No definition is going to be completely satisfying or precisely all-encompassing, because the categories of sex become messier the more we understand about biology, genetics, psychology, and other related branches of science.
Feel free to ask a biologist though! I am not one.
Do you have a different perspective on this? Perhaps a criterion that is 100% perfect at splitting the men from the non-men? I'm not an expert in this field, and I'm open to hearing how you would define a man (or male).
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On September 09 2026 02:42 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2026 01:53 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:46 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:On September 07 2026 06:34 LightSpectra wrote:
[quote]
Trans women are women and should compete in women's sports. Gatekeeping based off arbitrary biological factors hurts cis and trans women alike. I've made this abundantly clear over the dozens of posts I made about the subject. And the point here is that because people insist on an arbitrarily gendered society, these conflicts are inevitable.
If you want to say you don't care, then fine. But don't moralize "it works fine for me and I don't care about those for whom it doesn't work" into "therefore it's a good system". Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did. I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community. Ok, what is a male? I answered it in the post you replied to (the part you cut out). It's the very next sentence Theres no biological basis for male and female that make them less ambiguous than man and woman? When I talk about disorders that ambiguate male and female, your response would be that both of those are already ambiguous? I thought it was known and uncontroversial that the problem lies in traits that infer sex, not that sex itself is just as ambiguous as the wider categories of man and woman. If I ask a biologist if the term male is well-defined, the biologist would have to respond that No, it’s an ambiguous term? How would a biologist define male? What specific part(s) of DPB's definition do you disagree with?
We went over this one time. Male produces sperm and female produces eggs. Other sex-associated characteristics are not part of the definition but they often go together. Objections are the one-legged man problem "how can you say humans have two legs that person was born with no legs!" Jettisoning perfectly reasonable and logical categories that apply to the vast majority of people is silly.
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On September 09 2026 03:32 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2026 02:42 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 09 2026 01:53 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:46 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:On September 07 2026 11:14 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Women’s sports is a misnomer. They’ve never been open to all women, a better name might be non men sports. What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did. I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community. Ok, what is a male? I answered it in the post you replied to (the part you cut out). It's the very next sentence Theres no biological basis for male and female that make them less ambiguous than man and woman? When I talk about disorders that ambiguate male and female, your response would be that both of those are already ambiguous? I thought it was known and uncontroversial that the problem lies in traits that infer sex, not that sex itself is just as ambiguous as the wider categories of man and woman. If I ask a biologist if the term male is well-defined, the biologist would have to respond that No, it’s an ambiguous term? How would a biologist define male? What specific part(s) of DPB's definition do you disagree with? We went over this one time. Male produces sperm and female produces eggs. Other sex-associated characteristics are not part of the definition but they often go together. Objections are the one-legged man problem "how can you say humans have two legs that person was born with no legs!" Jettisoning perfectly reasonable and logical categories that apply to the vast majority of people is silly.
But not always.
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On September 09 2026 03:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2026 03:32 Introvert wrote:On September 09 2026 02:42 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 09 2026 01:53 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:46 dyhb wrote:On September 09 2026 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 09 2026 01:16 dyhb wrote:On September 08 2026 20:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 07 2026 11:54 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
What is a man One could simply say that a man is an "adult human male", but then "male" ends up carrying all of the same interesting/controversial weight that "man" did. You don't think the controversy is saying that a man is an adult human male? I didn't know what male had all the baggage that man did. I don't think there is much disagreement in what an Adult is referring to (age-wise) or what a Human is referring to (species-wise), for the conversation surrounding the trans community. Ok, what is a male? I answered it in the post you replied to (the part you cut out). It's the very next sentence Theres no biological basis for male and female that make them less ambiguous than man and woman? When I talk about disorders that ambiguate male and female, your response would be that both of those are already ambiguous? I thought it was known and uncontroversial that the problem lies in traits that infer sex, not that sex itself is just as ambiguous as the wider categories of man and woman. If I ask a biologist if the term male is well-defined, the biologist would have to respond that No, it’s an ambiguous term? How would a biologist define male? What specific part(s) of DPB's definition do you disagree with? We went over this one time. Male produces sperm and female produces eggs. Other sex-associated characteristics are not part of the definition but they often go together. Objections are the one-legged man problem "how can you say humans have two legs that person was born with no legs!" Jettisoning perfectly reasonable and logical categories that apply to the vast majority of people is silly. But not always.
Well that is the definition, so no. Now you can a disorder where you don't produce viable gamates but that isn't what people are talking about when they discuss this issue. Most trans men produced viable eggs, at least to start and more over it's not like they started producing sperm.
Edit: this is why it is hard to get around a term like "biological male" it's actually quite well defined even if the "biological" part is superfluous
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EPT
