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On May 28 2026 09:30 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. Don't forget mass migration.
Can confirm, my next door neighbors are conservatives, and Polish immigrants. He has had 4 back surgeries in the past couple of years and now she is in for cancer treatment. They were saying how it is immigrants ruining "our health care".
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Northern Ireland27271 Posts
On May 28 2026 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 09:19 WombaT wrote:On May 28 2026 02:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2026 00:08 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2026 08:16 Razyda wrote:On May 26 2026 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2026 00:51 Dan HH wrote:On May 22 2026 23:05 WombaT wrote:
Has anyone tried to model this, or similarly radical tax reform policies on a facsimile of a big modern economy?
I’m sure it’s fabulously complicated and would require a hefty chunk of computing power, but curious if any of you have encountered anything in this domain + Show Spoiler +We're far off from being able to properly simulate something so behaviorally complex, but it doesn't pass the sniff test to have a new economic system that entirely relies on the very same metric (total transaction value) it torpedoes. The main issue with fixing inequality / the tax burden on regular people is the lack of will and urgency, rather than a lack of potential solutions that are better and more predictable than flat tax and inshallah. I believe it is increasingly becoming a lack of functional organization. I believe the number of people with the will and that are feeling the urgency is reaching a critical mass, but I also believe organizing is a critical factor in where that threshold ends up being. You putting cart in front of the horse, once critical threshold is reached people will organise just fine. Organising before would be actually detrimental to your cause. On May 26 2026 07:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 26 2026 07:15 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2026 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2026 00:51 Dan HH wrote:On May 22 2026 23:05 WombaT wrote:
Has anyone tried to model this, or similarly radical tax reform policies on a facsimile of a big modern economy?
I’m sure it’s fabulously complicated and would require a hefty chunk of computing power, but curious if any of you have encountered anything in this domain + Show Spoiler +We're far off from being able to properly simulate something so behaviorally complex, but it doesn't pass the sniff test to have a new economic system that entirely relies on the very same metric (total transaction value) it torpedoes. The main issue with fixing inequality / the tax burden on regular people is the lack of will and urgency, rather than a lack of potential solutions that are better and more predictable than flat tax and inshallah. I believe it is increasingly becoming a lack of functional organization. I believe the number of people with the will and that are feeling the urgency is reaching a critical mass, but I also believe organizing is a critical factor in where that threshold ends up being. What are you basing that belief on? A variety of factors. Including but not limited to: A far more equitable wealth distribution already has ~90%+ support in the US. My own anecdotal political organizing experiences. There's plenty of urgency and will, but most people I encounter feel like what they are lacking is a clear organization they can join with meaningful ways they can actualize their goals/ideals/etc. Various economic indicators show increasing numbers of people are reaching breaking points and being forced to make tough decisions they never expected to have to make. History. Organizing smaller groups of already mostly like-minded people to take direct action in order to seize and use various types of power/leverage in order to force the status quo that is maintained by everyone else to change is how pretty much all the good stuff has been accomplished in the US. I think you make rather wild assumption here. This 90% may support more equitable wealth distribution, but that doesnt mean their solution is the same, so it is rather hard to organise them. I mean, there may be KKK members or neo nazis supporting "A far more equitable wealth distribution", however their solution is probably drastically different than yours. I actually agree with you for once! I kid, I do sometimes on other occasions :p If I were to hazard a guess a lot of people would love a better distribution, but for them. Pensioners in the UK love the pension triple lock that safeguards them against economic shocks, it doesn’t mean many don’t consistently vote for tickets that say theyre going to cut welfare/benefits for other groups Then there’s the mechanisms. My personal position is capitalism gonna capitalism, especially in a culture that broadly buys in wholesale. However, I imagine many respondents wanna keep it, just with the rough edges filed off. Considering the first anti-organizing part is completely asinine and nonsensical, and you didn't mention it specifically, I have to believe you ignored it so you could say you agreed with the rest of Razyda's post. As for the reality that people vote against their own interests because they have been propagandized to believe that's their best/only choice, that is part of what organizing is meant to address. As for racists and bigots being selfishly motivated, that's what got us "The New Deal", which iirc is the biggest accomplishment Democrats can claim. Republican voters want a far more equitable wealth distribution than the US has but they have no idea how to make it happen, same goes for Democrat voters (neither realize how bad it actually is). What is clear is that voting for them isn't going to get it, and it's only getting worse until it finally breaks. Without organization at the community level, it'll be a chaotic mess where those that are still holding wealth and power will reconsolidate under a new (likely worse) regime. This all isn't unrelated to the description lightspectra just provided about both parties' fixation on Europe as a model or warning sign depending on the topic/country. It’s all fanciful bollocks tbh, projecting that the US is ripe for genuine left wing politics based on one poll is about as sensible as predicting that OnlyFans users will become models of chastity You don’t seem to actually live on this planet, or if you do you certainly don’t understand it very well Your assertion that I'm "projecting that the US is ripe for genuine left wing politics based on one poll" is certainly "fanciful bollocks". FWIW wanting a far more equitable society than the US currently is isn't unique to party, time, or even country. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5233831https://spssi.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/asap.12397https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287000663_American's_desire_for_less_wealth_inequality_does_not_depend_on_how_you_ask_themIt's quite literally an issue of organizing the people that want it (~90%+ of the country) around an actual way to do it despite the other ~10%'s best efforts to stop them. Which includes but is not limited to: Amplifying our disagreements and idiocies among and against each other. The ratchet effect. Nihilism/hopelessness/"pragmatism" Bread and Circus etc...
It’s utter nonsense and you don’t live in reality. You don’t seem to understand how politics well, actually functions. Good luck with that
How much of that 90% voted to aid and abet genocide I wonder? Is it ok to bring them into the tent for the greater good now?
Even though there is big support for this, it’s very diffuse and you’re going to have to make compromises with such a coalition.
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"Want it" and "want to fight/sacrifice for it" are very different things, though.
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On May 28 2026 10:29 Turbovolver wrote:
"Want it" and "want to fight/sacrifice for it" are very different things, though.
Agreed. I read the 90% of people wanting it with the same gravity as 90% of people wanting to learn to play guitar or 90% of people wanting to be fitter. Sure, people (say they) want it, but if they don't want it enough to get callouses and do boring practice, or stick to a workout routine and somewhat mindful diet, then how much does them 'wanting it' matter?
It matters with regard to selling those people the thing they say they want, I suppose.
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United States44245 Posts
On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured.
Okay but that literally isn’t true.
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On May 28 2026 09:24 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. That right wing ideological take is utterly fucking stupid though, it’s beyond asinine. It’s not even worth entertaining European states choose to enact welfare states of various forms. That’s all there is to it The US has more than enough fucking money to do it and doesn’t, where there’s a will there’s a way + Show Spoiler +On May 28 2026 11:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. Okay but that literally isn’t true.
That's where I differ from you and others. I want to examine what people believe and why they believe it. This is not only to understand my fellow Americans and their political beliefs, but also to see where they went wrong or overstated something true into something wacko. That takes empathy and a very non-judgmental approach. Trump didn't occur in a vacuum, and he wasn't re-elected in a second moment of temporary majority moral madness. Europe has a similar issue of the rise of far-right and alt-right parties that aren't close to being handled by the political mainstreams, with some exceptions like Sweden with the Sweden Democrats.
I know it's kind of in vogue to treat every right wing view as another flat earth, or stolen 2020 election, or Hitler was right, but I'm taking pains to separate the fringiest of the fringe out.
I also try to take this same stance on the extremist left-wing views on this forum, especially from European posters, as offered in good faith and potentially defensible despite looking like ramblings from politically-ignorant insane people at first blush. This appears to be a forum heavily dominated by left-wing politics (American perspective) that doesn't have much moderate pushback, and a dozen people devoted to labeling any pushback as secretly motivated by MAGA and Trumpist and all that.
On May 28 2026 09:30 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. Don't forget mass migration. Of course.
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On May 28 2026 10:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 28 2026 09:19 WombaT wrote:On May 28 2026 02:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2026 00:08 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2026 08:16 Razyda wrote:On May 26 2026 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2026 00:51 Dan HH wrote:On May 22 2026 23:05 WombaT wrote:
Has anyone tried to model this, or similarly radical tax reform policies on a facsimile of a big modern economy?
I’m sure it’s fabulously complicated and would require a hefty chunk of computing power, but curious if any of you have encountered anything in this domain + Show Spoiler +We're far off from being able to properly simulate something so behaviorally complex, but it doesn't pass the sniff test to have a new economic system that entirely relies on the very same metric (total transaction value) it torpedoes. The main issue with fixing inequality / the tax burden on regular people is the lack of will and urgency, rather than a lack of potential solutions that are better and more predictable than flat tax and inshallah. I believe it is increasingly becoming a lack of functional organization. I believe the number of people with the will and that are feeling the urgency is reaching a critical mass, but I also believe organizing is a critical factor in where that threshold ends up being. You putting cart in front of the horse, once critical threshold is reached people will organise just fine. Organising before would be actually detrimental to your cause. On May 26 2026 07:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 26 2026 07:15 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2026 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2026 00:51 Dan HH wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +We're far off from being able to properly simulate something so behaviorally complex, but it doesn't pass the sniff test to have a new economic system that entirely relies on the very same metric (total transaction value) it torpedoes. The main issue with fixing inequality / the tax burden on regular people is the lack of will and urgency, rather than a lack of potential solutions that are better and more predictable than flat tax and inshallah. I believe it is increasingly becoming a lack of functional organization. I believe the number of people with the will and that are feeling the urgency is reaching a critical mass, but I also believe organizing is a critical factor in where that threshold ends up being. What are you basing that belief on? A variety of factors. Including but not limited to: A far more equitable wealth distribution already has ~90%+ support in the US. My own anecdotal political organizing experiences. There's plenty of urgency and will, but most people I encounter feel like what they are lacking is a clear organization they can join with meaningful ways they can actualize their goals/ideals/etc. Various economic indicators show increasing numbers of people are reaching breaking points and being forced to make tough decisions they never expected to have to make. History. Organizing smaller groups of already mostly like-minded people to take direct action in order to seize and use various types of power/leverage in order to force the status quo that is maintained by everyone else to change is how pretty much all the good stuff has been accomplished in the US. I think you make rather wild assumption here. This 90% may support more equitable wealth distribution, but that doesnt mean their solution is the same, so it is rather hard to organise them. I mean, there may be KKK members or neo nazis supporting "A far more equitable wealth distribution", however their solution is probably drastically different than yours. I actually agree with you for once! I kid, I do sometimes on other occasions :p If I were to hazard a guess a lot of people would love a better distribution, but for them. Pensioners in the UK love the pension triple lock that safeguards them against economic shocks, it doesn’t mean many don’t consistently vote for tickets that say theyre going to cut welfare/benefits for other groups Then there’s the mechanisms. My personal position is capitalism gonna capitalism, especially in a culture that broadly buys in wholesale. However, I imagine many respondents wanna keep it, just with the rough edges filed off. Considering the first anti-organizing part is completely asinine and nonsensical, and you didn't mention it specifically, I have to believe you ignored it so you could say you agreed with the rest of Razyda's post. As for the reality that people vote against their own interests because they have been propagandized to believe that's their best/only choice, that is part of what organizing is meant to address. As for racists and bigots being selfishly motivated, that's what got us "The New Deal", which iirc is the biggest accomplishment Democrats can claim. Republican voters want a far more equitable wealth distribution than the US has but they have no idea how to make it happen, same goes for Democrat voters (neither realize how bad it actually is). What is clear is that voting for them isn't going to get it, and it's only getting worse until it finally breaks. Without organization at the community level, it'll be a chaotic mess where those that are still holding wealth and power will reconsolidate under a new (likely worse) regime. This all isn't unrelated to the description lightspectra just provided about both parties' fixation on Europe as a model or warning sign depending on the topic/country. It’s all fanciful bollocks tbh, projecting that the US is ripe for genuine left wing politics based on one poll is about as sensible as predicting that OnlyFans users will become models of chastity You don’t seem to actually live on this planet, or if you do you certainly don’t understand it very well Your assertion that I'm "projecting that the US is ripe for genuine left wing politics based on one poll" is certainly "fanciful bollocks". FWIW wanting a far more equitable society than the US currently is isn't unique to party, time, or even country. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5233831https://spssi.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/asap.12397https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287000663_American's_desire_for_less_wealth_inequality_does_not_depend_on_how_you_ask_themIt's quite literally an issue of organizing the people that want it (~90%+ of the country) around an actual way to do it despite the other ~10%'s best efforts to stop them. Which includes but is not limited to: Amplifying our disagreements and idiocies among and against each other. The ratchet effect. Nihilism/hopelessness/"pragmatism" Bread and Circus etc... + Show Spoiler +It’s utter nonsense and you don’t live in reality. You don’t seem to understand how politics well, actually functions. Good luck with that
How much of that 90% voted to aid and abet genocide I wonder? Is it ok to bring them into the tent for the greater good now? Even though there is big support for this, it’s very diffuse and you’re going to have to make compromises with such a coalition.
So much unnecessary hostility baked into that spoiler.
Correct.
On May 28 2026 11:12 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 10:29 Turbovolver wrote:
"Want it" and "want to fight/sacrifice for it" are very different things, though. Agreed. I read the 90% of people wanting it with the same gravity as 90% of people wanting to learn to play guitar or 90% of people wanting to be fitter. Sure, people (say they) want it, but if they don't want it enough to get callouses and do boring practice, or stick to a workout routine and somewhat mindful diet, then how much does them 'wanting it' matter? It matters with regard to selling those people the thing they say they want, I suppose.
Are either of you under the impression that people want the current inequality (that they expressly say they don't want whenever asked) bad enough to fight and sacrifice to keep it over the more equitable society they expressly say they want?
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On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured.
Thanks for the answer but it's still very vague.
EU countries had welfare states during the cold war, in the in-between period and at the current time. During that period defense spending have been extremely varied. Clearly there is no connection to the welfare states and defense spending so how exactly does the US subsidise our welfare?
Furthermore do you disagree with the assessment that the US have pushed Europe to buy US systems and that the US, by being the leader in NATO, have heavily influenced European armies?
We have had the core freedoms debate before so let's not rehash that one. But what kinds of false sense security are we talking about?
And how is our domestic policy flawed?
As for Russian energy I am assuming you meant that in the past tense? At this point we are more reliant on US energy. Most countries in the world import some kind of energy from somewhere. It's not until recently that has been a problem (which many are working on, like EU and China, which at the end of the day will be a net negative for energy exporters.)
Finally exactly how are we on a divergent path from the US?
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On May 28 2026 12:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 10:21 WombaT wrote:On May 28 2026 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 28 2026 09:19 WombaT wrote:On May 28 2026 02:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2026 00:08 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2026 08:16 Razyda wrote:On May 26 2026 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2026 00:51 Dan HH wrote:On May 22 2026 23:05 WombaT wrote:
Has anyone tried to model this, or similarly radical tax reform policies on a facsimile of a big modern economy?
I’m sure it’s fabulously complicated and would require a hefty chunk of computing power, but curious if any of you have encountered anything in this domain + Show Spoiler +We're far off from being able to properly simulate something so behaviorally complex, but it doesn't pass the sniff test to have a new economic system that entirely relies on the very same metric (total transaction value) it torpedoes. The main issue with fixing inequality / the tax burden on regular people is the lack of will and urgency, rather than a lack of potential solutions that are better and more predictable than flat tax and inshallah. I believe it is increasingly becoming a lack of functional organization. I believe the number of people with the will and that are feeling the urgency is reaching a critical mass, but I also believe organizing is a critical factor in where that threshold ends up being. You putting cart in front of the horse, once critical threshold is reached people will organise just fine. Organising before would be actually detrimental to your cause. On May 26 2026 07:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 26 2026 07:15 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2026 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I believe it is increasingly becoming a lack of functional organization. I believe the number of people with the will and that are feeling the urgency is reaching a critical mass, but I also believe organizing is a critical factor in where that threshold ends up being. What are you basing that belief on? A variety of factors. Including but not limited to: A far more equitable wealth distribution already has ~90%+ support in the US. My own anecdotal political organizing experiences. There's plenty of urgency and will, but most people I encounter feel like what they are lacking is a clear organization they can join with meaningful ways they can actualize their goals/ideals/etc. Various economic indicators show increasing numbers of people are reaching breaking points and being forced to make tough decisions they never expected to have to make. History. Organizing smaller groups of already mostly like-minded people to take direct action in order to seize and use various types of power/leverage in order to force the status quo that is maintained by everyone else to change is how pretty much all the good stuff has been accomplished in the US. I think you make rather wild assumption here. This 90% may support more equitable wealth distribution, but that doesnt mean their solution is the same, so it is rather hard to organise them. I mean, there may be KKK members or neo nazis supporting "A far more equitable wealth distribution", however their solution is probably drastically different than yours. I actually agree with you for once! I kid, I do sometimes on other occasions :p If I were to hazard a guess a lot of people would love a better distribution, but for them. Pensioners in the UK love the pension triple lock that safeguards them against economic shocks, it doesn’t mean many don’t consistently vote for tickets that say theyre going to cut welfare/benefits for other groups Then there’s the mechanisms. My personal position is capitalism gonna capitalism, especially in a culture that broadly buys in wholesale. However, I imagine many respondents wanna keep it, just with the rough edges filed off. Considering the first anti-organizing part is completely asinine and nonsensical, and you didn't mention it specifically, I have to believe you ignored it so you could say you agreed with the rest of Razyda's post. As for the reality that people vote against their own interests because they have been propagandized to believe that's their best/only choice, that is part of what organizing is meant to address. As for racists and bigots being selfishly motivated, that's what got us "The New Deal", which iirc is the biggest accomplishment Democrats can claim. Republican voters want a far more equitable wealth distribution than the US has but they have no idea how to make it happen, same goes for Democrat voters (neither realize how bad it actually is). What is clear is that voting for them isn't going to get it, and it's only getting worse until it finally breaks. Without organization at the community level, it'll be a chaotic mess where those that are still holding wealth and power will reconsolidate under a new (likely worse) regime. This all isn't unrelated to the description lightspectra just provided about both parties' fixation on Europe as a model or warning sign depending on the topic/country. It’s all fanciful bollocks tbh, projecting that the US is ripe for genuine left wing politics based on one poll is about as sensible as predicting that OnlyFans users will become models of chastity You don’t seem to actually live on this planet, or if you do you certainly don’t understand it very well Your assertion that I'm "projecting that the US is ripe for genuine left wing politics based on one poll" is certainly "fanciful bollocks". FWIW wanting a far more equitable society than the US currently is isn't unique to party, time, or even country. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5233831https://spssi.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/asap.12397https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287000663_American's_desire_for_less_wealth_inequality_does_not_depend_on_how_you_ask_themIt's quite literally an issue of organizing the people that want it (~90%+ of the country) around an actual way to do it despite the other ~10%'s best efforts to stop them. Which includes but is not limited to: Amplifying our disagreements and idiocies among and against each other. The ratchet effect. Nihilism/hopelessness/"pragmatism" Bread and Circus etc... + Show Spoiler +It’s utter nonsense and you don’t live in reality. You don’t seem to understand how politics well, actually functions. Good luck with that
How much of that 90% voted to aid and abet genocide I wonder? Is it ok to bring them into the tent for the greater good now? Even though there is big support for this, it’s very diffuse and you’re going to have to make compromises with such a coalition. So much unnecessary hostility baked into that spoiler. Correct. Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 11:12 Fleetfeet wrote:On May 28 2026 10:29 Turbovolver wrote:
"Want it" and "want to fight/sacrifice for it" are very different things, though. Agreed. I read the 90% of people wanting it with the same gravity as 90% of people wanting to learn to play guitar or 90% of people wanting to be fitter. Sure, people (say they) want it, but if they don't want it enough to get callouses and do boring practice, or stick to a workout routine and somewhat mindful diet, then how much does them 'wanting it' matter? It matters with regard to selling those people the thing they say they want, I suppose. Are either of you under the impression that people want the current inequality (that they expressly say they don't want whenever asked) bad enough to fight and sacrifice to keep it over the more equitable society they expressly say they want?
The current inequality is a result of the existing system. Doing nothing means keeping it.
The comparison with wanting to get fit is apt. Everyone wants to be fitter, but it requires time, effort and money.
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On May 28 2026 14:28 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. Thanks for the answer but it's still very vague. EU countries had welfare states during the cold war, in the in-between period and at the current time. During that period defense spending have been extremely varied. Clearly there is no connection to the welfare states and defense spending so how exactly does the US subsidise our welfare? Furthermore do you disagree with the assessment that the US have pushed Europe to buy US systems and that the US, by being the leader in NATO, have heavily influenced European armies? We have had the core freedoms debate before so let's not rehash that one. But what kinds of false sense security are we talking about? And how is our domestic policy flawed? As for Russian energy I am assuming you meant that in the past tense? At this point we are more reliant on US energy. Most countries in the world import some kind of energy from somewhere. It's not until recently that has been a problem (which many are working on, like EU and China, which at the end of the day will be a net negative for energy exporters.) Finally exactly how are we on a divergent path from the US? I want to put forward the fair reading of how America's right wing views Europe, or the problems of Europe from the American right-wing context. Of course it's going to be vague! But if a poster's apprehension of the topic advances beyond, and I'm trying to be fair here so this is a direct quote from the thread, "EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home," then that's an absolute win.
The ultimate goal here is to be able to express to a triple-Trump voter in America an opinion on Europe that they would wholeheartedly agree with from their perspective, and not the same claptrap that's how left-wingers view right-wingers and what they would really describe their thought process if only they were more honest. You've got a perspective that would reduce to how you'd argue a right-winger out of believing as they do, which is valid in that context, but not actually responsive to On May 28 2026 00:50 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Why is there such a hyperfixation on Europe? And why is it getting worse?
We are really living rent free in the MAGA heads. Of course they also don't know anything about Europe. I doubt that there is such a hyperfixation, or that it's getting worse, but the substance of the charge is your own personal research, which isn't actually something that can serve as a basis for argument.
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On May 28 2026 14:31 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 12:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 28 2026 10:21 WombaT wrote:On May 28 2026 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 28 2026 09:19 WombaT wrote:On May 28 2026 02:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2026 00:08 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2026 08:16 Razyda wrote:On May 26 2026 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2026 00:51 Dan HH wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +We're far off from being able to properly simulate something so behaviorally complex, but it doesn't pass the sniff test to have a new economic system that entirely relies on the very same metric (total transaction value) it torpedoes. The main issue with fixing inequality / the tax burden on regular people is the lack of will and urgency, rather than a lack of potential solutions that are better and more predictable than flat tax and inshallah. I believe it is increasingly becoming a lack of functional organization. I believe the number of people with the will and that are feeling the urgency is reaching a critical mass, but I also believe organizing is a critical factor in where that threshold ends up being. You putting cart in front of the horse, once critical threshold is reached people will organise just fine. Organising before would be actually detrimental to your cause. On May 26 2026 07:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 26 2026 07:15 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
What are you basing that belief on? A variety of factors. Including but not limited to: A far more equitable wealth distribution already has ~90%+ support in the US. My own anecdotal political organizing experiences. There's plenty of urgency and will, but most people I encounter feel like what they are lacking is a clear organization they can join with meaningful ways they can actualize their goals/ideals/etc. Various economic indicators show increasing numbers of people are reaching breaking points and being forced to make tough decisions they never expected to have to make. History. Organizing smaller groups of already mostly like-minded people to take direct action in order to seize and use various types of power/leverage in order to force the status quo that is maintained by everyone else to change is how pretty much all the good stuff has been accomplished in the US. I think you make rather wild assumption here. This 90% may support more equitable wealth distribution, but that doesnt mean their solution is the same, so it is rather hard to organise them. I mean, there may be KKK members or neo nazis supporting "A far more equitable wealth distribution", however their solution is probably drastically different than yours. I actually agree with you for once! I kid, I do sometimes on other occasions :p If I were to hazard a guess a lot of people would love a better distribution, but for them. Pensioners in the UK love the pension triple lock that safeguards them against economic shocks, it doesn’t mean many don’t consistently vote for tickets that say theyre going to cut welfare/benefits for other groups Then there’s the mechanisms. My personal position is capitalism gonna capitalism, especially in a culture that broadly buys in wholesale. However, I imagine many respondents wanna keep it, just with the rough edges filed off. Considering the first anti-organizing part is completely asinine and nonsensical, and you didn't mention it specifically, I have to believe you ignored it so you could say you agreed with the rest of Razyda's post. As for the reality that people vote against their own interests because they have been propagandized to believe that's their best/only choice, that is part of what organizing is meant to address. As for racists and bigots being selfishly motivated, that's what got us "The New Deal", which iirc is the biggest accomplishment Democrats can claim. Republican voters want a far more equitable wealth distribution than the US has but they have no idea how to make it happen, same goes for Democrat voters (neither realize how bad it actually is). What is clear is that voting for them isn't going to get it, and it's only getting worse until it finally breaks. Without organization at the community level, it'll be a chaotic mess where those that are still holding wealth and power will reconsolidate under a new (likely worse) regime. This all isn't unrelated to the description lightspectra just provided about both parties' fixation on Europe as a model or warning sign depending on the topic/country. It’s all fanciful bollocks tbh, projecting that the US is ripe for genuine left wing politics based on one poll is about as sensible as predicting that OnlyFans users will become models of chastity You don’t seem to actually live on this planet, or if you do you certainly don’t understand it very well Your assertion that I'm "projecting that the US is ripe for genuine left wing politics based on one poll" is certainly "fanciful bollocks". FWIW wanting a far more equitable society than the US currently is isn't unique to party, time, or even country. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5233831https://spssi.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/asap.12397https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287000663_American's_desire_for_less_wealth_inequality_does_not_depend_on_how_you_ask_themIt's quite literally an issue of organizing the people that want it (~90%+ of the country) around an actual way to do it despite the other ~10%'s best efforts to stop them. Which includes but is not limited to: Amplifying our disagreements and idiocies among and against each other. The ratchet effect. Nihilism/hopelessness/"pragmatism" Bread and Circus etc... + Show Spoiler +It’s utter nonsense and you don’t live in reality. You don’t seem to understand how politics well, actually functions. Good luck with that
How much of that 90% voted to aid and abet genocide I wonder? Is it ok to bring them into the tent for the greater good now? Even though there is big support for this, it’s very diffuse and you’re going to have to make compromises with such a coalition. So much unnecessary hostility baked into that spoiler. Correct. On May 28 2026 11:12 Fleetfeet wrote:On May 28 2026 10:29 Turbovolver wrote:
"Want it" and "want to fight/sacrifice for it" are very different things, though. Agreed. I read the 90% of people wanting it with the same gravity as 90% of people wanting to learn to play guitar or 90% of people wanting to be fitter. Sure, people (say they) want it, but if they don't want it enough to get callouses and do boring practice, or stick to a workout routine and somewhat mindful diet, then how much does them 'wanting it' matter? It matters with regard to selling those people the thing they say they want, I suppose. Are either of you under the impression that people want the current inequality (that they expressly say they don't want whenever asked) bad enough to fight and sacrifice to keep it over the more equitable society they expressly say they want? The current inequality is a result of the existing system. Doing nothing means keeping it. The comparison with wanting to get fit is apt. Everyone wants to be fitter, but it requires time, effort and money. Everyone "Doing nothing" wouldn't keep it. It would destroy it. It's everyone's continued participation against their own best interests that maintains it. Sorta like eating shitty food and avoiding physical activity to veg out in front of a screen because people are manipulating our brains using decades and billions of dollars of research and development for profit makes/keeps people unfit and brings millions of people to early graves every year.
To be clear, this is not saying people are stupid or lazy. It is just acknowledging that individual willpower is completely outmatched by corporate engineering. You do not have actual choice when healthy food is priced out of your neighborhood and tech companies use neurological data to keep you hooked on a screen. When corporations control all the available options, choosing from that menu is not freedom. It is just managed compliance.
I should note that pointing out that most people cannot afford to just stop working does not defend the current system, it actually condemns it. When a person is forced to participate in their own exploitation because the alternative is immediate eviction and starvation, that is coercion, not consent. Doing nothing only works when it is done collectively, through things like organized labor strikes and community support networks. That is exactly why corporations spend billions of dollars trying to break unions and keep people isolated.
I don't really agree with your framing, but if you insist on it, I think we can make progress with it regardless.
What separates fitter countries from less fit ones? Is it individuals will and urgency to be fit? or Is it larger structural and institutional factors?
How would we distinguish the posters here/politicians at the federal level/corporations that are just saying they want to get fit (a better Democrat party, a more equitable society, etc) from those that are actually willing to and doing the work?
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On May 28 2026 14:51 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 14:28 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. Thanks for the answer but it's still very vague. EU countries had welfare states during the cold war, in the in-between period and at the current time. During that period defense spending have been extremely varied. Clearly there is no connection to the welfare states and defense spending so how exactly does the US subsidise our welfare? Furthermore do you disagree with the assessment that the US have pushed Europe to buy US systems and that the US, by being the leader in NATO, have heavily influenced European armies? We have had the core freedoms debate before so let's not rehash that one. But what kinds of false sense security are we talking about? And how is our domestic policy flawed? As for Russian energy I am assuming you meant that in the past tense? At this point we are more reliant on US energy. Most countries in the world import some kind of energy from somewhere. It's not until recently that has been a problem (which many are working on, like EU and China, which at the end of the day will be a net negative for energy exporters.) Finally exactly how are we on a divergent path from the US? I want to put forward the fair reading of how America's right wing views Europe, or the problems of Europe from the American right-wing context. Of course it's going to be vague! But if a poster's apprehension of the topic advances beyond, and I'm trying to be fair here so this is a direct quote from the thread, "EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home," then that's an absolute win. The ultimate goal here is to be able to express to a triple-Trump voter in America an opinion on Europe that they would wholeheartedly agree with from their perspective, and not the same claptrap that's how left-wingers view right-wingers and what they would really describe their thought process if only they were more honest. You've got a perspective that would reduce to how you'd argue a right-winger out of believing as they do, which is valid in that context, but not actually responsive to Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 00:50 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Why is there such a hyperfixation on Europe? And why is it getting worse?
We are really living rent free in the MAGA heads. Of course they also don't know anything about Europe. I doubt that there is such a hyperfixation, or that it's getting worse, but the substance of the charge is your own personal research, which isn't actually something that can serve as a basis for argument.
Fair enough that's what they think.
And I'm trying to understand *why* they think it. Thus my questions. I've been around for a while. US citizens (conservatives in particular) have never been particularly interested in gang related shootings in Sweden. Now it's discussed on conservative sites.
Why? The US has not, and isn't now, particularly concerned about the values of it's allies and conservative groups seem to care very little about it except for specific European parts.
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The arm of "nobody is above the law" continuous to extend its reach. It's just an investigation, if she didn't perjure herself she has nothing to worry about.
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On May 28 2026 14:51 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 14:28 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. Thanks for the answer but it's still very vague. EU countries had welfare states during the cold war, in the in-between period and at the current time. During that period defense spending have been extremely varied. Clearly there is no connection to the welfare states and defense spending so how exactly does the US subsidise our welfare? Furthermore do you disagree with the assessment that the US have pushed Europe to buy US systems and that the US, by being the leader in NATO, have heavily influenced European armies? We have had the core freedoms debate before so let's not rehash that one. But what kinds of false sense security are we talking about? And how is our domestic policy flawed? As for Russian energy I am assuming you meant that in the past tense? At this point we are more reliant on US energy. Most countries in the world import some kind of energy from somewhere. It's not until recently that has been a problem (which many are working on, like EU and China, which at the end of the day will be a net negative for energy exporters.) Finally exactly how are we on a divergent path from the US? I want to put forward the fair reading of how America's right wing views Europe, or the problems of Europe from the American right-wing context. Of course it's going to be vague! But if a poster's apprehension of the topic advances beyond, and I'm trying to be fair here so this is a direct quote from the thread, "EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home," then that's an absolute win. The ultimate goal here is to be able to express to a triple-Trump voter in America an opinion on Europe that they would wholeheartedly agree with from their perspective, and not the same claptrap that's how left-wingers view right-wingers and what they would really describe their thought process if only they were more honest. You've got a perspective that would reduce to how you'd argue a right-winger out of believing as they do, which is valid in that context, but not actually responsive to Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 00:50 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Why is there such a hyperfixation on Europe? And why is it getting worse?
We are really living rent free in the MAGA heads. Of course they also don't know anything about Europe. I doubt that there is such a hyperfixation, or that it's getting worse, but the substance of the charge is your own personal research, which isn't actually something that can serve as a basis for argument.
The triple Trump voter believes in schrödingers Europe.
It's overrun by refuges and full of no-go and sharia-law zones while simultaneously being an all controlling 1984 state that taxes it's citizens to the bone, inprisons people for facebook posts and "misspeak", forces people to ride bikes and public transport while health insurance death panels decide over life and death. All this while being a nanny state thats dominating QOL, Happyness, Life expectancy, press freedom, health outcomes and so on because the american tax payer pays for europes defense and pharmaceutical research because all europe does is mooching off the NO 1 IN THE WORLD FUCKING USA HELL YEAH that can't have all that because that would be socialism.
There is no world you can talk sense to such a person, they are not interested in sense.
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Every accusation a confession. It is really impressive. Every single time.
I guess they must make sure that people learn not to accuse dear leader of anything in the future.
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I love how all the resident fascist bootlickers descended on the thread to chime in with their takes on why Europe is being the target of their ideological propaganda, and every one has a different thing to thrown in.
You have Ryzada with his usual economically and geopolitically illiterate "Europe doesn't make anything", the same EU where every lithography machine comes from without which the chip industry can't make anything.
You have dynb who is, as usual pretending to be playing the devils advocate while regurgitating and defending moronic right wing takes.
You have Introvert with his racist urges making him incapable of seeing a thread and not coming in to attack immigrants.
And then you have the lawfare superfan oBlade who is too busy furiously jerking off at the thought of Trump using the DOJ to go after his enemies.
That last one is not about Europe but it's kind of a nice illustration of the banana republic USA is which makes us in Europe look even better in contrast.
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Jankisa discovering the existence of people who disagree with him after 15 years on tl.net, 2026, colorized.
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You don't have an original tought in your head that people could actually disagree with, you just repeat and cheerlead whatever dear leader tells you to.
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On May 28 2026 14:51 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 14:28 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. Thanks for the answer but it's still very vague. EU countries had welfare states during the cold war, in the in-between period and at the current time. During that period defense spending have been extremely varied. Clearly there is no connection to the welfare states and defense spending so how exactly does the US subsidise our welfare? Furthermore do you disagree with the assessment that the US have pushed Europe to buy US systems and that the US, by being the leader in NATO, have heavily influenced European armies? We have had the core freedoms debate before so let's not rehash that one. But what kinds of false sense security are we talking about? And how is our domestic policy flawed? As for Russian energy I am assuming you meant that in the past tense? At this point we are more reliant on US energy. Most countries in the world import some kind of energy from somewhere. It's not until recently that has been a problem (which many are working on, like EU and China, which at the end of the day will be a net negative for energy exporters.) Finally exactly how are we on a divergent path from the US? I want to put forward the fair reading of how America's right wing views Europe, or the problems of Europe from the American right-wing context. Of course it's going to be vague! But if a poster's apprehension of the topic advances beyond, and I'm trying to be fair here so this is a direct quote from the thread, "EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home," then that's an absolute win. The ultimate goal here is to be able to express to a triple-Trump voter in America an opinion on Europe that they would wholeheartedly agree with from their perspective, and not the same claptrap that's how left-wingers view right-wingers and what they would really describe their thought process if only they were more honest. You've got a perspective that would reduce to how you'd argue a right-winger out of believing as they do, which is valid in that context, but not actually responsive to Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 00:50 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Why is there such a hyperfixation on Europe? And why is it getting worse?
We are really living rent free in the MAGA heads. Of course they also don't know anything about Europe. I doubt that there is such a hyperfixation, or that it's getting worse, but the substance of the charge is your own personal research, which isn't actually something that can serve as a basis for argument.
The problem with how the right wing sees anything these days is not that the views are decoupled from reality, it is that these views are artificially created. I can see it with my boss, he is a good manager, generally a very liked person, 50, not stupid. He has been influenced over the last few years and now we had a genuine verbal altercation because he used his WhatsApp status message to spread genuine climate change denialism. Not the en vogue "it's not gonna be as bad", no, the "it's caused by sun activity" ilk. And it's not a coincidence that he started using tiktok when he started to express right wing views. He always was a left leaning employee before, and that suddenly changes as well.
It's totally possible that he always held right wing views that did not translate to workplace issues and therefore were not on our radar and he simply adapted the rest of his views over time to affect his subordinates, but it is insane how his usage of THE echo chamber app correlates with him starting to not only adapt all the talking points of the extreme right but also with him starting to proudly tout said talking points.
The most ridiculous part is that he even brought up the exit of the EU as economically needed by Germany, working as a team leader of a team with polish and Romanian coworkers for a company that provides services for German banks in the sepa zone of European payments.
I suspect there are still genuine conservative people with their own conservative beliefs that sometimes fit those of the bubble and sometimes differ from the bubble. But overall these people are lost because their opinion was designed against their interest by people understanding the only thing that matters to them is disagreement.
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On May 28 2026 16:50 oBlade wrote:The arm of "nobody is above the law" continuous to extend its reach. It's just an investigation, if she didn't perjure herself she has nothing to worry about.
Just like the U.S. citizens who have spent months in ICE detention facilities have nothing to fear from immigration control, right?
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EPT
