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On May 28 2026 09:30 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. Don't forget mass migration.
Can confirm, my next door neighbors are conservatives, and Polish immigrants. He has had 4 back surgeries in the past couple of years and now she is in for cancer treatment. They were saying how it is immigrants ruining "our health care".
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Northern Ireland26876 Posts
On May 28 2026 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 09:19 WombaT wrote:On May 28 2026 02:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 27 2026 00:08 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2026 08:16 Razyda wrote:On May 26 2026 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2026 00:51 Dan HH wrote:On May 22 2026 23:05 WombaT wrote:
Has anyone tried to model this, or similarly radical tax reform policies on a facsimile of a big modern economy?
I’m sure it’s fabulously complicated and would require a hefty chunk of computing power, but curious if any of you have encountered anything in this domain + Show Spoiler +We're far off from being able to properly simulate something so behaviorally complex, but it doesn't pass the sniff test to have a new economic system that entirely relies on the very same metric (total transaction value) it torpedoes. The main issue with fixing inequality / the tax burden on regular people is the lack of will and urgency, rather than a lack of potential solutions that are better and more predictable than flat tax and inshallah. I believe it is increasingly becoming a lack of functional organization. I believe the number of people with the will and that are feeling the urgency is reaching a critical mass, but I also believe organizing is a critical factor in where that threshold ends up being. You putting cart in front of the horse, once critical threshold is reached people will organise just fine. Organising before would be actually detrimental to your cause. On May 26 2026 07:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 26 2026 07:15 WombaT wrote:On May 26 2026 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 23 2026 00:51 Dan HH wrote:On May 22 2026 23:05 WombaT wrote:
Has anyone tried to model this, or similarly radical tax reform policies on a facsimile of a big modern economy?
I’m sure it’s fabulously complicated and would require a hefty chunk of computing power, but curious if any of you have encountered anything in this domain + Show Spoiler +We're far off from being able to properly simulate something so behaviorally complex, but it doesn't pass the sniff test to have a new economic system that entirely relies on the very same metric (total transaction value) it torpedoes. The main issue with fixing inequality / the tax burden on regular people is the lack of will and urgency, rather than a lack of potential solutions that are better and more predictable than flat tax and inshallah. I believe it is increasingly becoming a lack of functional organization. I believe the number of people with the will and that are feeling the urgency is reaching a critical mass, but I also believe organizing is a critical factor in where that threshold ends up being. What are you basing that belief on? A variety of factors. Including but not limited to: A far more equitable wealth distribution already has ~90%+ support in the US. My own anecdotal political organizing experiences. There's plenty of urgency and will, but most people I encounter feel like what they are lacking is a clear organization they can join with meaningful ways they can actualize their goals/ideals/etc. Various economic indicators show increasing numbers of people are reaching breaking points and being forced to make tough decisions they never expected to have to make. History. Organizing smaller groups of already mostly like-minded people to take direct action in order to seize and use various types of power/leverage in order to force the status quo that is maintained by everyone else to change is how pretty much all the good stuff has been accomplished in the US. I think you make rather wild assumption here. This 90% may support more equitable wealth distribution, but that doesnt mean their solution is the same, so it is rather hard to organise them. I mean, there may be KKK members or neo nazis supporting "A far more equitable wealth distribution", however their solution is probably drastically different than yours. I actually agree with you for once! I kid, I do sometimes on other occasions :p If I were to hazard a guess a lot of people would love a better distribution, but for them. Pensioners in the UK love the pension triple lock that safeguards them against economic shocks, it doesn’t mean many don’t consistently vote for tickets that say theyre going to cut welfare/benefits for other groups Then there’s the mechanisms. My personal position is capitalism gonna capitalism, especially in a culture that broadly buys in wholesale. However, I imagine many respondents wanna keep it, just with the rough edges filed off. Considering the first anti-organizing part is completely asinine and nonsensical, and you didn't mention it specifically, I have to believe you ignored it so you could say you agreed with the rest of Razyda's post. As for the reality that people vote against their own interests because they have been propagandized to believe that's their best/only choice, that is part of what organizing is meant to address. As for racists and bigots being selfishly motivated, that's what got us "The New Deal", which iirc is the biggest accomplishment Democrats can claim. Republican voters want a far more equitable wealth distribution than the US has but they have no idea how to make it happen, same goes for Democrat voters (neither realize how bad it actually is). What is clear is that voting for them isn't going to get it, and it's only getting worse until it finally breaks. Without organization at the community level, it'll be a chaotic mess where those that are still holding wealth and power will reconsolidate under a new (likely worse) regime. This all isn't unrelated to the description lightspectra just provided about both parties' fixation on Europe as a model or warning sign depending on the topic/country. It’s all fanciful bollocks tbh, projecting that the US is ripe for genuine left wing politics based on one poll is about as sensible as predicting that OnlyFans users will become models of chastity You don’t seem to actually live on this planet, or if you do you certainly don’t understand it very well Your assertion that I'm "projecting that the US is ripe for genuine left wing politics based on one poll" is certainly "fanciful bollocks". FWIW wanting a far more equitable society than the US currently is isn't unique to party, time, or even country. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5233831https://spssi.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/asap.12397https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287000663_American's_desire_for_less_wealth_inequality_does_not_depend_on_how_you_ask_themIt's quite literally an issue of organizing the people that want it (~90%+ of the country) around an actual way to do it despite the other ~10%'s best efforts to stop them. Which includes but is not limited to: Amplifying our disagreements and idiocies among and against each other. The ratchet effect. Nihilism/hopelessness/"pragmatism" Bread and Circus etc...
It’s utter nonsense and you don’t live in reality. You don’t seem to understand how politics well, actually functions. Good luck with that
How much of that 90% voted to aid and abet genocide I wonder? Is it ok to bring them into the tent for the greater good now?
Even though there is big support for this, it’s very diffuse and you’re going to have to make compromises with such a coalition.
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"Want it" and "want to fight/sacrifice for it" are very different things, though.
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On May 28 2026 10:29 Turbovolver wrote:
"Want it" and "want to fight/sacrifice for it" are very different things, though.
Agreed. I read the 90% of people wanting it with the same gravity as 90% of people wanting to learn to play guitar or 90% of people wanting to be fitter. Sure, people (say they) want it, but if they don't want it enough to get callouses and do boring practice, or stick to a workout routine and somewhat mindful diet, then how much does them 'wanting it' matter?
It matters with regard to selling those people the thing they say they want, I suppose.
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United States44015 Posts
On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured.
Okay but that literally isn’t true.
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On May 28 2026 09:24 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. That right wing ideological take is utterly fucking stupid though, it’s beyond asinine. It’s not even worth entertaining European states choose to enact welfare states of various forms. That’s all there is to it The US has more than enough fucking money to do it and doesn’t, where there’s a will there’s a way + Show Spoiler +On May 28 2026 11:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. Okay but that literally isn’t true.
That's where I differ from you and others. I want to examine what people believe and why they believe it. This is not only to understand my fellow Americans and their political beliefs, but also to see where they went wrong or overstated something true into something wacko. That takes empathy and a very non-judgmental approach. Trump didn't occur in a vacuum, and he wasn't re-elected in a second moment of temporary majority moral madness. Europe has a similar issue of the rise of far-right and alt-right parties that aren't close to being handled by the political mainstreams, with some exceptions like Sweden with the Sweden Democrats.
I know it's kind of in vogue to treat every right wing view as another flat earth, or stolen 2020 election, or Hitler was right, but I'm taking pains to separate the fringiest of the fringe out.
I also try to take this same stance on the extremist left-wing views on this forum, especially from European posters, as offered in good faith and potentially defensible despite looking like ramblings from politically-ignorant insane people at first blush. This appears to be a forum heavily dominated by left-wing politics (American perspective) that doesn't have much moderate pushback, and a dozen people devoted to labeling any pushback as secretly motivated by MAGA and Trumpist and all that.
On May 28 2026 09:30 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2026 07:26 dyhb wrote:On May 28 2026 05:09 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2026 04:58 Jankisa wrote:
When it comes to human and worker rights, EU is the "shining city on the hill" and Xi, Putin and Trump hate it because it's a horrible contrast to what they are doing to people at home. They dont hate it, they hold it in contempt, and not because of the reasons you mentioned, but because Europe is essentially non factor and yet it keep acting all high and mighty. Right-wing ideology: The EU boasts of the gentler and kinder liberal society, all the while the US is subsidizing their defense budgets through NATO, and thus their welfare state by extension. All the while, they’ve exchanged core freedoms and justice for the promise of safety and security. Their domestic policy is flawed. They are overly dependent on Russian energy. They should be regarded as on a diverging path from the US and subject to less partnership. The more stringent right-wingers will use europoor and caretaker governments of tourist destinations. (I take it that Europeans, for their part, also think America is backwards or uncultured. Don't forget mass migration. Of course.
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