Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On October 15 2024 08:26 BlackJack wrote: Remember when we kicked off a global pandemic with Fauci telling us there's no reason to mask up and then later telling us he lied about that because we needed to save masks for healthcare workers? The government lying to our faces has done 10x the damage of Joe Rogan but of course people only want to talk about Joe Rogan being the problem.
Also want to point out that I vividly remember the gullible people regurgitating Fauci's lie about masks early in the pandemic. Ironically they would have been praised while the rest of us would have been shamed for spreading misinformation for pointing out the stupidity of saying "There's no reason to mask and also we need to save them for the healthcare workers."
Can you quote your source? Everywhere I google the best I can find is "You don't want to take masks away from the health care providers who are in real and present ganger of getting infected" "That would be the worst thing we can do. If we have them covered, then you could look back and say, maybe we need to broaden this."
That sounds pretty reasonable, can you provide the unreasonable version?
Fauci later: we said that because we were concerned masks were in short supply for medical workers.
He says that on the actual video. He is talking about prioritizing the supply. Heath care workers, people who are infected, then the rest. When supply changed, it went to everyone. The situation changing causing a change in advice is how things are meant to work.
On October 15 2024 08:26 BlackJack wrote: Remember when we kicked off a global pandemic with Fauci telling us there's no reason to mask up and then later telling us he lied about that because we needed to save masks for healthcare workers? The government lying to our faces has done 10x the damage of Joe Rogan but of course people only want to talk about Joe Rogan being the problem.
Also want to point out that I vividly remember the gullible people regurgitating Fauci's lie about masks early in the pandemic. Ironically they would have been praised while the rest of us would have been shamed for spreading misinformation for pointing out the stupidity of saying "There's no reason to mask and also we need to save them for the healthcare workers."
Can you quote your source? Everywhere I google the best I can find is "You don't want to take masks away from the health care providers who are in real and present ganger of getting infected" "That would be the worst thing we can do. If we have them covered, then you could look back and say, maybe we need to broaden this."
That sounds pretty reasonable, can you provide the unreasonable version?
Fauci later: we said that because we were concerned masks were in short supply for medical workers.
He says that on the actual video. He is talking about prioritizing the supply. Heath care workers, people who are infected, then the rest. When supply changed, it went to everyone. The situation changing causing a change in advice is how things are meant to work.
They don't understand the concept of triage and priority. It's all me, me, me all the time. It's also funny to think that it would have changed anything to recommend everyone to mask up at that point. There literally weren't enough masks globally. Like not even close to enough. Sure recommend people to do something that's impossible to do so no one gets masks, not even healthcare. Great move. Only thing that changes is that masks are like 30 bucks for a single one. Which changes nothing for the person getting fleeced because a mask won't work when no one else has one.
It wasn't untill production scaled like crazy there was enough supply to go around.
Yeah, I don't know why Fauci giving advice to prioritize who got masks is supposed to be some damning revelation. Like, yeah, prioritize the professionals who come in contact with and who help the most people, especially in a time when the supply of masks was not universal. Seems pretty basic to me?
My guess is shitting on him on Social Media gets lots of likes and attention. With people not going back to check the original quotes they just think the tons of likes post is true.
On October 16 2024 02:14 NewSunshine wrote: Yeah, I don't know why Fauci giving advice to prioritize who got masks is supposed to be some damning revelation. Like, yeah, prioritize the professionals who come in contact with and who help the most people, especially in a time when the supply of masks was not universal. Seems pretty basic to me?
But he downplayed their effectiveness with that ultimate aim in mind, which does bring all sorts of other problems.
Perhaps it was the best of a bad bunch of options, I think that’s a fair argument. Equally I think BJ is also on the money where you erode trust if you’re caught in a white lie, and I think we saw that.
It also doesn’t help that people can be fucking idiots either, but you have to factor that in I suppose.
On October 16 2024 02:14 NewSunshine wrote: Yeah, I don't know why Fauci giving advice to prioritize who got masks is supposed to be some damning revelation. Like, yeah, prioritize the professionals who come in contact with and who help the most people, especially in a time when the supply of masks was not universal. Seems pretty basic to me?
Because context is used selectively in the war of politics. It's more important to shit on experts when they word things a bit poorly or when their predictions are less than perfect. Context has to go out of the window when it's not beneficial to consider the context. Context suddenly becomes relevant again whenever it's beneficial.
This is what happens when the war isn't about truth vs falsehood, but instead "us" vs "them". It's also what happens when people idolize and demonize other people instead of seeing them as normal people with strengths and flaws and everything that comes with that.
On October 16 2024 02:14 NewSunshine wrote: Yeah, I don't know why Fauci giving advice to prioritize who got masks is supposed to be some damning revelation. Like, yeah, prioritize the professionals who come in contact with and who help the most people, especially in a time when the supply of masks was not universal. Seems pretty basic to me?
But he downplayed their effectiveness with that ultimate aim in mind, which does bring all sorts of other problems.
Perhaps it was the best of a bad bunch of options, I think that’s a fair argument. Equally I think BJ is also on the money where you erode trust if you’re caught in a white lie, and I think we saw that.
It also doesn’t help that people can be fucking idiots either, but you have to factor that in I suppose.
Sure, as someone who thinks themself reasonably intelligent, I would rather know straight-up: we need to prioritize masks based on availability for medical personnel, until availability is more widespread. I can understand that. But, like you said, when they're trying to message to a much, um, shall I say broader audience, you need to tell them in words that will get them on board with what you're trying to do. And if you just tell people that you want medical personnel to have priority, you're still going to have tons of people going "hmm, I hear that, but I can still get mine" and proceeding to do their part to fuck things up in the short term anyway.
But at the end of the day, he's human, we're all human, we make mistakes, but he was our preeminent medical authority making a call in the interest of public health, during a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic. Who the fuck wanted that job? So you caught a white lie that he told, sure, let's look at it in the broader context. The broader context was that he was looking to limit the spread of the virus and save lives. This isn't something to gotcha him over, we all made our choices in an unprecedented situation. There wasn't some conspiracy afoot.
Yeah unfortunately there are a lot of people who hear
"Preliminary data is showing mask wearing is effective, but we need to prioritize getting the limited supply to medical care providers and immuno-compromised people for now; stand by for instructions and when/how to obtain and use masks if you're not a medical provider"
and promptly buy up all the masks they can find with zero regard for their fellow residents.
I remember very distinctly how pissed off I was when everyone in the neighborhood cleaned out the pasta and rice sections in the supermarket and even chips and a lot more. There was absolutely nothing left for several days when I really needed something. Same with toilet paper, it was just gone for a while. Completely gone. Fauci was aware of this, and his job wasn't just to be a scientist, he was politically involved. He had to worry about policy and public communication. Mistakes will be made with that kind of stuff, especially during a crisis that was practically unprecedented in recent times. He had an impossible job and he fumbled here and there. That's completely expected and nowhere near the same level of a fuck-up as several years of what could be considered a dangerous misinformation campaign by Joe Rogan and many other big voices like him.
On October 16 2024 02:14 NewSunshine wrote: Yeah, I don't know why Fauci giving advice to prioritize who got masks is supposed to be some damning revelation. Like, yeah, prioritize the professionals who come in contact with and who help the most people, especially in a time when the supply of masks was not universal. Seems pretty basic to me?
But he downplayed their effectiveness with that ultimate aim in mind, which does bring all sorts of other problems.
Perhaps it was the best of a bad bunch of options, I think that’s a fair argument. Equally I think BJ is also on the money where you erode trust if you’re caught in a white lie, and I think we saw that.
It also doesn’t help that people can be fucking idiots either, but you have to factor that in I suppose.
Sure, as someone who thinks themself reasonably intelligent, I would rather know straight-up: we need to prioritize masks based on availability for medical personnel, until availability is more widespread. I can understand that. But, like you said, when they're trying to message to a much, um, shall I say broader audience, you need to tell them in words that will get them on board with what you're trying to do. And if you just tell people that you want medical personnel to have priority, you're still going to have tons of people going "hmm, I hear that, but I can still get mine" and proceeding to do their part to fuck things up in the short term anyway.
But at the end of the day, he's human, we're all human, we make mistakes, but he was our preeminent medical authority making a call in the interest of public health, during a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic. Who the fuck wanted that job? So you caught a white lie that he told, sure, let's look at it in the broader context. The broader context was that he was looking to limit the spread of the virus and save lives. This isn't something to gotcha him over, we all made our choices in an unprecedented situation. There wasn't some conspiracy afoot.
I fully agree. Replaying the situation, I don't see a 'better choice' to be made. However, there is OBVIOUS harm caused in a general sense among this 'broader audience' who I in no way expect to see being lied to as reasonable and retroactively justified.
The erosion of trust is the harm, not the direct results of the lie itself. I would readily believe that the lie itself was productive and successful.
On October 16 2024 02:14 NewSunshine wrote: Yeah, I don't know why Fauci giving advice to prioritize who got masks is supposed to be some damning revelation. Like, yeah, prioritize the professionals who come in contact with and who help the most people, especially in a time when the supply of masks was not universal. Seems pretty basic to me?
But he downplayed their effectiveness with that ultimate aim in mind, which does bring all sorts of other problems.
Perhaps it was the best of a bad bunch of options, I think that’s a fair argument. Equally I think BJ is also on the money where you erode trust if you’re caught in a white lie, and I think we saw that.
It also doesn’t help that people can be fucking idiots either, but you have to factor that in I suppose.
Sure, as someone who thinks themself reasonably intelligent, I would rather know straight-up: we need to prioritize masks based on availability for medical personnel, until availability is more widespread. I can understand that. But, like you said, when they're trying to message to a much, um, shall I say broader audience, you need to tell them in words that will get them on board with what you're trying to do. And if you just tell people that you want medical personnel to have priority, you're still going to have tons of people going "hmm, I hear that, but I can still get mine" and proceeding to do their part to fuck things up in the short term anyway.
But at the end of the day, he's human, we're all human, we make mistakes, but he was our preeminent medical authority making a call in the interest of public health, during a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic. Who the fuck wanted that job? So you caught a white lie that he told, sure, let's look at it in the broader context. The broader context was that he was looking to limit the spread of the virus and save lives. This isn't something to gotcha him over, we all made our choices in an unprecedented situation. There wasn't some conspiracy afoot.
I fully agree. Replaying the situation, I don't see a 'better choice' to be made. However, there is OBVIOUS harm caused in a general sense among this 'broader audience' who I in no way expect to see being lied to as reasonable and retroactively justified.
The erosion of trust is the harm, not the direct results of the lie itself. I would readily believe that the lie itself was productive and successful.
But did these people trust the government and lose that trust by this action, or were they already distrustful and merely looking for a reinforcement of that distrust?
STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus,
The capitalized "NOT" is the opposite of what you said.
He also said masks can INCREASE your risk of getting COVID if you're not a healthcare provider
“You can increase your risk of getting it by wearing a mask if you are not a health care provider,” Adams said during an interview on Fox & Friends on Monday morning.
“Folks who don’t know how to wear them properly tend to touch their faces a lot and actually can increase the spread of coronavirus,” Adams said.
"There isn't a lot of data to support if there is any benefit to wearing a mask in the public setting. It is currently unclear," Dr. Jonathan Grein, a board-certified infectious disease physician and director of Hospital Epidemiology at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, told ABC News.
The masks might even bring about negative effects.
"The mask itself can become contaminated and serve as a source of infection, actually doing more harm than good," Dr. Jonathan Grein added. "If wearing a mask, I caution touching it."
The CDC also doesn't recommend to the general public using facemasks as a method of protection from coronavirus or other respiratory illnesses.
So the messaging was not "preliminary data shows masks are effective but we need to preserve them for healthcare workers." The messaging was Masks won't prevent you from getting coronavirus and they might even increase your chances of catching because because a) you will touch your face more by adjusting the mask or b) It will lull you into a false sense of security so you don't socially distance
4+ years is a long time ago. I remember it vividly because I was actively arguing against people regurgitating this nonsense that masks are ineffective, however most of them were unswayed by my argument of "why the fuck do you think they use them in hospitals."
I agree with BJ as I think the messaging around masks was problematic from the get go.
Maybe a better message from the beginning would have been that masks cannot prevent YOU from getting covid but they can help in stopping the spread from people who have Covid. That combined with the fact of asymptomatic or mild symptoms being spreaders would dictate everyone mask up but that there would be no sense in hoarding masks since it wouldnt help you from not getting sick.
We know that kinda became the message when people were recommended to mask up but I think the plot had already been lost at that point.
Seperately there was debate over covid on surfaces vs being airborne early on so the comment about masks making you more likely to rouch your face and/or be contaminated may have been a fair assessment if you give the benefit of the doubt.
Looking through the quotes I actually think they are accurate but the message was lost. Im not sure where or how but the comment of "STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus" can be read multiple ways which leads to the mixed messaging imo
On October 16 2024 05:56 BlackJack wrote: The messaging was Masks won't prevent you from getting coronavirus and they might even increase your chances of catching because because a) you will touch your face more by adjusting the mask or b) It will lull you into a false sense of security so you don't socially distance
I'll use this sentence from my last post as a segue to address Magic Powers.
In the COVID thread Magic Powers was routinely espousing this idea that masks give a false sense of security to argue that mask mandates made the spread worse. I'm going to trim these quotes for the sake of brevity but I'm not removing any context that would meaningful change them.
On November 01 2020 16:56 Magic Powers wrote: As I expected the mask mandates made things worse because they gave people a false sense of security, causing them to socially distance less rather than more.
On November 16 2020 18:31 Magic Powers wrote: Plus, I think that mask mandates may've potentially had an unexpected effect on the infection rate. There have been cases reported of people gathering because they thought they'd be safe if they all wore masks, and as a result they got infected. Did masks result in more lax policies, increasing the infection rate? Quite possibly.
On November 18 2020 20:58 Magic Powers wrote: This is very similar to the mask mandates. By telling people to wear masks, we're implying that - since the masks make them and/or others (a little) safer - they can start seeing people more often than without masks. So the advice backfires and drives infections up rather than down. That's what could well have happened in the weeks or months leading up to the latest wave, potentially making it worse than it could've been otherwise.
These posts are in November long after the CDC reversed course and started recommending universal masking. I'm just curious what gives you the gall to decide for yourself that the "health experts" are wrong about masks and mask mandates but if Joe Rogan wants to decide something for himself he's a dangerous lunatic? Hypocrisy much? Perhaps a self-ban is in order for spreading dangerous misinformation?
and to circle back to my original point: I think it's not a coincidence that Magic Powers doubts masking efficacy months after the health experts began the pandemic by telling us to question masking efficacy and that masks may do more harm than good. They're the ones responsible for muddying the waters, Joe Rogan is just having a swim in it.
On October 16 2024 06:04 Sadist wrote: I agree with BJ as I think the messaging around masks was problematic from the get go.
Maybe a better message from the beginning would have been that masks cannot prevent YOU from getting covid but they can help in stopping the spread from people who have Covid. That combined with the fact of asymptomatic or mild symptoms being spreaders would dictate everyone mask up but that there would be no sense in hoarding masks since it wouldnt help you from not getting sick.
We know that kinda became the message when people were recommended to mask up but I think the plot had already been lost at that point.
Seperately there was debate over covid on surfaces vs being airborne early on so the comment about masks making you more likely to rouch your face and/or be contaminated may have been a fair assessment if you give the benefit of the doubt.
Looking through the quotes I actually think they are accurate but the message was lost. Im not sure where or how but the comment of "STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus" can be read multiple ways which leads to the mixed messaging imo
I think it is important to remember that not everything was known about Covid and that even when we know a ton of things about viruses and other medical questions, doctors have varying medical opinions on the best course of action. Being wrong, or changing ones mind and so on do not equate to lying or trying to mislead the public.
In local government I've seen plenty of examples of people making what they know are far from optimal choices because they "don't want to lose public trust", not wanting to admit past mistakes, or things not working out as planned often for reasonable reasons.
The expectation that you are going to get perfect advice every time or there is some conspiracy going on is a big problem. There are far more people exploiting that mindset for their personal gains right now than any of the mistakes being listed. Like we still see people stumping for ivermectin simply because doctors they didn't like said it was bad and youtubers they liked said it was good.
He also said masks can INCREASE your risk of getting COVID if you're not a healthcare provider
“You can increase your risk of getting it by wearing a mask if you are not a health care provider,” Adams said during an interview on Fox & Friends on Monday morning.
“Folks who don’t know how to wear them properly tend to touch their faces a lot and actually can increase the spread of coronavirus,” Adams said.
"There isn't a lot of data to support if there is any benefit to wearing a mask in the public setting. It is currently unclear," Dr. Jonathan Grein, a board-certified infectious disease physician and director of Hospital Epidemiology at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, told ABC News.
The masks might even bring about negative effects.
"The mask itself can become contaminated and serve as a source of infection, actually doing more harm than good," Dr. Jonathan Grein added. "If wearing a mask, I caution touching it."
The CDC also doesn't recommend to the general public using facemasks as a method of protection from coronavirus or other respiratory illnesses.
So the messaging was not "preliminary data shows masks are effective but we need to preserve them for healthcare workers." The messaging was Masks won't prevent you from getting coronavirus and they might even increase your chances of catching because because a) you will touch your face more by adjusting the mask or b) It will lull you into a false sense of security so you don't socially distance
I'm sure you're not intentionally trying to memory hole the truth and rewrite the past. 4+ years is a long time ago. I remember it vividly because I was actively arguing against people regurgitating this nonsense that masks are ineffective, however most of them were unswayed by my argument of "why the fuck do you think they use them in hospitals."
You misunderstood him, the quote was a hypothetical. He meant that he could imagine the full truth resulting in hoarding by the general public, and a ton of masks sitting in basements next to the mountain of toilet paper and flour instead of being available in hospitals.
He also said masks can INCREASE your risk of getting COVID if you're not a healthcare provider
“You can increase your risk of getting it by wearing a mask if you are not a health care provider,” Adams said during an interview on Fox & Friends on Monday morning.
“Folks who don’t know how to wear them properly tend to touch their faces a lot and actually can increase the spread of coronavirus,” Adams said.
"There isn't a lot of data to support if there is any benefit to wearing a mask in the public setting. It is currently unclear," Dr. Jonathan Grein, a board-certified infectious disease physician and director of Hospital Epidemiology at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, told ABC News.
The masks might even bring about negative effects.
"The mask itself can become contaminated and serve as a source of infection, actually doing more harm than good," Dr. Jonathan Grein added. "If wearing a mask, I caution touching it."
The CDC also doesn't recommend to the general public using facemasks as a method of protection from coronavirus or other respiratory illnesses.
So the messaging was not "preliminary data shows masks are effective but we need to preserve them for healthcare workers." The messaging was Masks won't prevent you from getting coronavirus and they might even increase your chances of catching because because a) you will touch your face more by adjusting the mask or b) It will lull you into a false sense of security so you don't socially distance
I'm sure you're not intentionally trying to memory hole the truth and rewrite the past. 4+ years is a long time ago. I remember it vividly because I was actively arguing against people regurgitating this nonsense that masks are ineffective, however most of them were unswayed by my argument of "why the fuck do you think they use them in hospitals."
You misunderstood him, the quote was a hypothetical. He meant that he could imagine the full truth resulting in hoarding by the general public, and a ton of masks sitting in basements next to the mountain of toilet paper and flour instead of being available in hospitals.
Yes I realized that just before your post so I have edited mine
On October 16 2024 05:56 BlackJack wrote: The messaging was Masks won't prevent you from getting coronavirus and they might even increase your chances of catching because because a) you will touch your face more by adjusting the mask or b) It will lull you into a false sense of security so you don't socially distance
I'll use this sentence from my last post as a segue to address Magic Powers.
In the COVID thread Magic Powers was routinely espousing this idea that masks give a false sense of security to argue that mask mandates made the spread worse. I'm going to trim these quotes for the sake of brevity but I'm not removing any context that would meaningful change them.
On November 01 2020 16:56 Magic Powers wrote: As I expected the mask mandates made things worse because they gave people a false sense of security, causing them to socially distance less rather than more.
On November 16 2020 18:31 Magic Powers wrote: Plus, I think that mask mandates may've potentially had an unexpected effect on the infection rate. There have been cases reported of people gathering because they thought they'd be safe if they all wore masks, and as a result they got infected. Did masks result in more lax policies, increasing the infection rate? Quite possibly.
On November 18 2020 20:58 Magic Powers wrote: This is very similar to the mask mandates. By telling people to wear masks, we're implying that - since the masks make them and/or others (a little) safer - they can start seeing people more often than without masks. So the advice backfires and drives infections up rather than down. That's what could well have happened in the weeks or months leading up to the latest wave, potentially making it worse than it could've been otherwise.
These posts are in November long after the CDC reversed course and started recommending universal masking. I'm just curious what gives you the gall to decide for yourself that the "health experts" are wrong about masks and mask mandates but if Joe Rogan wants to decide something for himself he's a dangerous lunatic? Hypocrisy much? Perhaps a self-ban is in order for spreading dangerous misinformation?
and to circle back to my original point: I think it's not a coincidence that Magic Powers doubts masking efficacy months after the health experts began the pandemic by telling us to question masking efficacy and that masks may do more harm than good. They're the ones responsible for muddying the waters, Joe Rogan is just having a swim in it.
Are you trying to rile me up or what are you doing here? I argued against unintelligent policies, not against masks. My argument has always been from the start that social distancing is by far the best way to prevent infections. You know this very well, go back and read the posting history if you need confirmation.
What about my post are you not understanding? Why do you feel entitled to openly opine on what policies the healthcare experts propose are unintelligent but when Joe Rogan does it it's "spreading dangerous misinformation." I'm sure you have a mountain of evidence that shows mask mandates increase the spread of COVID. That last part is sarcasm.
EPT
