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On October 15 2024 22:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 22:30 oBlade wrote:On October 15 2024 17:16 Velr wrote:
Ivermectin was and is not effective against Covid.
Should it have been called Horse paste? Maybe not, would have stopped the biggest dumdums from getting the actual horse paste and using it. It's a bit of a Chicken/Egg problem.
Joe Rogan was one of the most famous and biggest proponents of it. He did tons of harm. You have a scientific study demonstrating that? Rogan's, Trump's, and anyone else's public push for ivermectin and/or hydroxychloroquine (and/or anyone's anti-vaccine rhetoric) were extremely dangerous.
We are not arguing what drug is effective or not. This is the part you need a study for if you want to make the claim at the end of what I quoted. You have to first show that he pushed for it, then that people were successfully pushed by him, then that the taking of an antiparasitic, caused specifically by him, caused "tons of harm."
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On October 15 2024 22:30 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 17:16 Velr wrote:
Ivermectin was and is not effective against Covid.
Should it have been called Horse paste? Maybe not, would have stopped the biggest dumdums from getting the actual horse paste and using it. It's a bit of a Chicken/Egg problem.
Joe Rogan was one of the most famous and biggest proponents of it. He did tons of harm. You have a scientific study demonstrating that? Rogan got corona once and said he got an ivermectin prescription. What's the misinformation? What's the years of it? Being generous there was maybe a year after the vaccines were out that corona could be said to have been dangerous.
That Ivermectin doesn't treat covid? There are many, google them yourself, I did a year ago, they are out there you just chose to remain ignorant so you can further spout plain bullshit. Bullshit we know is bullshit since about 3 years.
Rogan got (experimental) mrna treatments and thru everything but the vaccine at it. Rogan pussied out like mad once he got it, his "live healthy and do sports" mantra crumbled as soon as he got a mild caugh. The guy is a pussy.
. What's the misinformation? What's the years of it? Being generous there was maybe a year after the vaccines were out that corona could be said to have been dangerous.
Just fuck off. Health services were still being bogged down by corona patients all over the world. Thats why basically the whole world did lockdowns. Which btw. worked, you might have noticed that there was also no seasonal flu during lockdowns, I wonder why that is... They weren't fun or economically beneficial but they worked, it just broke conservative pussies brains... A cost most experts obviously underestimated, so we now have to live in this clown world.
Which reminds me, where are all the corona measures that will never be removed again? They are all removed. The conservative morons have been wrong about covid at every step of the way it mattered. It's a bunch of crybaby pussies.
Oh and just to entertain me, just who had an interest in locking down entire countries (well, continents)? "Big" Whatever industry? How? Why...
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Northern Ireland25385 Posts
Ok so just show something that’s basically impossible to show without some kind of invasive data scraping? Low bar there
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On October 15 2024 23:05 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 22:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 15 2024 22:30 oBlade wrote:On October 15 2024 17:16 Velr wrote:
Ivermectin was and is not effective against Covid.
Should it have been called Horse paste? Maybe not, would have stopped the biggest dumdums from getting the actual horse paste and using it. It's a bit of a Chicken/Egg problem.
Joe Rogan was one of the most famous and biggest proponents of it. He did tons of harm. You have a scientific study demonstrating that? Rogan's, Trump's, and anyone else's public push for ivermectin and/or hydroxychloroquine (and/or anyone's anti-vaccine rhetoric) were extremely dangerous. We are not arguing what drug is effective or not. This is the part you need a study for if you want to make the claim at the end of what I quoted. You have to first show that he pushed for it, then that people were successfully pushed by him, then that the taking of an antiparasitic, caused specifically by him, caused "tons of harm."
What are you talking about? I supported the statement "Ivermectin was and is not effective against Covid" when you asked about a scientific study. The other statements mentioned, like calling things "horse paste" and Rogan harming people with his misinformation, aren't going to have randomized controlled trials lol.
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On October 15 2024 23:11 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 22:30 oBlade wrote:On October 15 2024 17:16 Velr wrote:
Ivermectin was and is not effective against Covid.
Should it have been called Horse paste? Maybe not, would have stopped the biggest dumdums from getting the actual horse paste and using it. It's a bit of a Chicken/Egg problem.
Joe Rogan was one of the most famous and biggest proponents of it. He did tons of harm. You have a scientific study demonstrating that? Rogan got corona once and said he got an ivermectin prescription. What's the misinformation? What's the years of it? Being generous there was maybe a year after the vaccines were out that corona could be said to have been dangerous. That Ivermectin doesn't treat covid? There are many, google them yourself, I did a year ago, they are out there you just chose to remain ignorant so you can further spout plain bullshit.
And I just went through the trouble of citing a bunch of studies/links refuting both ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, and oBlade's response was to ignore them and even delete them from his response post.
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On October 15 2024 23:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 23:05 oBlade wrote:On October 15 2024 22:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 15 2024 22:30 oBlade wrote:On October 15 2024 17:16 Velr wrote:
Ivermectin was and is not effective against Covid.
Should it have been called Horse paste? Maybe not, would have stopped the biggest dumdums from getting the actual horse paste and using it. It's a bit of a Chicken/Egg problem.
Joe Rogan was one of the most famous and biggest proponents of it. He did tons of harm. You have a scientific study demonstrating that? Rogan's, Trump's, and anyone else's public push for ivermectin and/or hydroxychloroquine (and/or anyone's anti-vaccine rhetoric) were extremely dangerous. We are not arguing what drug is effective or not. This is the part you need a study for if you want to make the claim at the end of what I quoted. You have to first show that he pushed for it, then that people were successfully pushed by him, then that the taking of an antiparasitic, caused specifically by him, caused "tons of harm." What are you talking about? I supported the statement "Ivermectin was and is not effective against Covid" when you asked about a scientific study. The other statements mentioned, like calling things "horse paste" and Rogan harming people with his misinformation, aren't going to have randomized controlled trials lol.
We actually know that more (american) conservatives died to covid than democrat voters... And iirc there are even studies that suggest it's pretty much directly linked to the anti-vaccine sentiment in that crowd. Now this is obviously hard to prove 100% but tendencies seem to be there and are pretty clear.
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On October 15 2024 23:18 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 23:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 15 2024 23:05 oBlade wrote:On October 15 2024 22:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 15 2024 22:30 oBlade wrote:On October 15 2024 17:16 Velr wrote:
Ivermectin was and is not effective against Covid.
Should it have been called Horse paste? Maybe not, would have stopped the biggest dumdums from getting the actual horse paste and using it. It's a bit of a Chicken/Egg problem.
Joe Rogan was one of the most famous and biggest proponents of it. He did tons of harm. You have a scientific study demonstrating that? Rogan's, Trump's, and anyone else's public push for ivermectin and/or hydroxychloroquine (and/or anyone's anti-vaccine rhetoric) were extremely dangerous. We are not arguing what drug is effective or not. This is the part you need a study for if you want to make the claim at the end of what I quoted. You have to first show that he pushed for it, then that people were successfully pushed by him, then that the taking of an antiparasitic, caused specifically by him, caused "tons of harm." What are you talking about? I supported the statement "Ivermectin was and is not effective against Covid" when you asked about a scientific study. The other statements mentioned, like calling things "horse paste" and Rogan harming people with his misinformation, aren't going to have randomized controlled trials lol. We actually know that more (american) conservatives died to covid than democrat voters... And iirc there are even studies that suggest it's pretty much directly linked to the anti-vaccine sentiment in that crowd. Now this is obviously hard to prove 100% but tendencies seem to be there and are pretty clear.
Agreed. It's just obvious that oBlade is going to keep moving the goalposts until we give up on explaining why fake treatments are fake, are bad, and shouldn't be peddled by public figures.
Edit:
On October 15 2024 23:27 oBlade wrote:
How many souls did Adolf Rogan murder?
Called it.
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On October 15 2024 23:12 WombaT wrote:
Ok so just show something that’s basically impossible to show without some kind of invasive data scraping? Low bar there
It's not my claim. "Tons of harm" should be measurable. Someone prove it, preferably the person who claimed it and knew what I was talking about rather than the person who never gets past the first line of a post.
At least. Ballpark it for me. How many souls did Adolf Rogan murder? Seems important we know the altitude of our moral high ground here.
- Rogan recommended to healthy young people that they should not get vaccinated.
This is called risk/reward. Also, almost every country prioritized the elderly and infirm when it came to vaccine rollouts.
- Rogan platformed the well known fraud and fearmongerer Dr. Robert Malone who argued there was an "explosion of vaccine-associated deaths" and hospitals were incentivized to mislabel covid as the cause of death. Malone also spread a conspiracy theory about leaders using people's covid anxiety to "hypnotize the public". Rogan called Malone an expert on this topic.
And how do you know the free exchange of ideas enabled by his platforming of doctors didn't lead to a future of fewer deaths than one where everyone was conspiracying alone in their own heads?
- Rogan claimed the mRNA vaccines are gene therapy.
What's the consequence of making this claim?
- Rogan promoted the use of ivermectin to treat covid.
Promoted, probably not. He took ivermectin and a bunch of other things, of which ivermectin is probably the safest, because it was a novel disease and it's called "trying" things. If nothing else, Rogan has few parasites.
PS: Neil Young asked Spotify to remove his music in protest of Rogan's anti-vaccine misinformation.
Oh no. I guess it's still not on Spotify then.
- Rogan said he believes it's better to get the virus. He argued people should get vaccinated first and then deliberately infect themselves with covid to achieve robust immunity.
This is called hybrid immunity.
- Rogan platformed the fraud Dr Peter McCullough who argued on the podcast that health officials withheld covid treatments to spread fear and push for vaccination. He spoke of several millions of unnecessary hospitalizations caused by this alleged conspiracy.
There was a time you couldn't get monoclonal antibodies except outpatient.
- Rogan said he was treated with a "vitamin drip" and ivermectin after getting infected by covid.
And monoclonal antibodies.
- Rogan compared vaccine passports to a dictatorship.
That's an opinion. Also, they are.
- The fraud Dr McCullough also claimed on the podcast that people can't get covid twice. This contrasts a study that showed unvaccinated people were twice as likely to be reinfected as those who were vaccinated.
How about the fraud "everybody" who claimed the vaccines stop transmission. They didn't give myocarditis to someone who would've avoided it otherwise? Or is that just an accounting error in your measure of harm?
This is a doozy:
He argued people should get vaccinated first
Facepalming levels of disinformation in this claim, wow. Arguing that people should get vaccinated. What a grifter.
Like you really have to keep foresight vs hindsight in mind here. If I flip a coin, and you say it'll be heads, and I say it'll be tails, when it comes back tails, you didn't peddle dangerously harmful misinformation by saying it was heads. And the bystander John Doe didn't kill millions with misinformation by not saying it would be heads or tails at all, either.
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Northern Ireland25385 Posts
How much harm has ‘wokeness’ done to the fabric of the nation? Can you stick a number on that?
You seem to want to claim that people either can or can’t influence the wider culture in impactful ways depending on what the topic is
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Unsurprisingly, the anti-vaxxer doesn't think pushing anti-vaccine views on a huge podcast is dangerous or could cause any harm to any people whatsoever. But Fauci isn't literally perfect so that's exactly the same thing. I should've guessed.
Also, anyone who quotemines 50% of a sentence to make a point is immediately disqualified from discussion. You're as much a grifter as Joe Rogan, oBlade. In fact, he's probably much better than you.
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On October 15 2024 23:35 WombaT wrote:
How much harm has ‘wokeness’ done to the fabric of the nation? Can you stick a number on that?
You seem to want to claim that people either can or can’t influence the wider culture in impactful ways depending on what the topic is
"Fabric of the nation" is I think intentionally not a numerical concept due to your rhetorical choice? But I could give you a lower bound on harms: More than Rogan. Has cost universities and companies tens to hundreds of billions, including lost growth. Has killed thousands by suicide and homicide. Millions of lost and missing jobs. Thousands of divorces. Gap in terms of probably millions of marriages and babies. Pretty sure I can blame hundreds of thousands of drug deaths on wokeness too.
On October 15 2024 23:45 Magic Powers wrote:
Unsurprisingly, the anti-vaxxer
Who?
On October 15 2024 23:45 Magic Powers wrote:
doesn't think pushing anti-vaccine views on a huge podcast is dangerous or could cause any harm to any people whatsoever. But Fauci isn't literally perfect so that's exactly the same thing. I should've guessed.
Could? Sure. I'm open. Could also have benefits. Don't you agree? So what did he say that caused what harm? And when did he push?
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On October 15 2024 23:45 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 23:35 WombaT wrote:
How much harm has ‘wokeness’ done to the fabric of the nation? Can you stick a number on that?
You seem to want to claim that people either can or can’t influence the wider culture in impactful ways depending on what the topic is "Fabric of the nation" is I think intentionally not a numerical concept due to your rhetorical choice? But I could give you a lower bound on harms: More than Rogan. Has cost universities and companies tens to hundreds of billions, including lost growth. Has killed thousands by suicide and homicide. Millions of lost and missing jobs. Thousands of divorces. Gap in terms of probably millions of marriages and babies. Pretty sure I can blame hundreds of thousands of drug deaths on wokeness too.
Can you please list studies on that?
Pretty sure we can blame millions of deaths on bad eating habits and conservatives being against any sort of regulation because "muh freedom". Let's not even go to the private healthcare system that conservatives love so much despite it being a well known failure that produces horrible results while costing way more than any other system anywhere.
Oh and... Marriages don't "die" or something. They, luckily, can be ended nowadays whiteout much of a fuss.
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On October 15 2024 23:48 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 23:45 oBlade wrote:On October 15 2024 23:35 WombaT wrote:
How much harm has ‘wokeness’ done to the fabric of the nation? Can you stick a number on that?
You seem to want to claim that people either can or can’t influence the wider culture in impactful ways depending on what the topic is "Fabric of the nation" is I think intentionally not a numerical concept due to your rhetorical choice? But I could give you a lower bound on harms: More than Rogan. Has cost universities and companies tens to hundreds of billions, including lost growth. Has killed thousands by suicide and homicide. Millions of lost and missing jobs. Thousands of divorces. Gap in terms of probably millions of marriages and babies. Pretty sure I can blame hundreds of thousands of drug deaths on wokeness too. Pretty sure we can blame millions of deaths on bad eating habits and conservatives being against any sort of regulation because "muh freedom".
This is called a "red herring." People eating junk food doesn't mean that hundreds of thousands haven't died due to failure to prosecute drug policy.
But for the sake of my clarification, are you saying that conservative failure to create a police state to tell people what to eat has killed millions?
On October 15 2024 23:48 Velr wrote:
Let's not even go to the private healthcare system that conservatives love so much despite it being a well known failure that produces horrible results while costing way more than any other system anywhere.
You're welcome for the vaccines by the way.
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It doesn't suprise me one bit that your off the opinion the vaccines were a sole US invention/product.
But you got like 20 points to answer from others and me... So... Please, go at it.
But for the sake of my clarification, are you saying that conservative failure to create a police state to tell people what to eat has killed millions?
You can't be this dim. The war on drugs, which is the method you seem to suggest (because conservative brain can't think of other methods), is a failure. Conservatives still love that failure and want to still keep it around after half a century of failing.
I guess you also think gays just didn't exist 100 years ago and so on...
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Northern Ireland25385 Posts
On October 15 2024 23:45 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 23:35 WombaT wrote:
How much harm has ‘wokeness’ done to the fabric of the nation? Can you stick a number on that?
You seem to want to claim that people either can or can’t influence the wider culture in impactful ways depending on what the topic is "Fabric of the nation" is I think intentionally not a numerical concept due to your rhetorical choice? But I could give you a lower bound on harms: More than Rogan. Has cost universities and companies tens to hundreds of billions, including lost growth. Has killed thousands by suicide and homicide. Millions of lost and missing jobs. Thousands of divorces. Gap in terms of probably millions of marriages and babies. Pretty sure I can blame hundreds of thousands of drug deaths on wokeness too. Who? Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 23:45 Magic Powers wrote:
doesn't think pushing anti-vaccine views on a huge podcast is dangerous or could cause any harm to any people whatsoever. But Fauci isn't literally perfect so that's exactly the same thing. I should've guessed. Could? Sure. I'm open. Could also have benefits. Don't you agree? So what did he say that caused what harm? And when did he push?
Some phenomena are extremely difficult to measure, some degree of logical extrapolation and intuition has to do some of the heavy lifting.
I think it’s fine to concede that on certain domains and discuss them via that framework.
In others yeah, sourcing and empirical data are the order of the day
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On October 15 2024 23:55 Velr wrote:It doesn't suprise me one bit that your off the opinion the vaccines were a sole US invention/product. But you got like 20 points to answer from others and me... So... Please, go at it. Show nested quote +But for the sake of my clarification, are you saying that conservative failure to create a police state to tell people what to eat has killed millions? You can't be this dim. The war on drugs, which is the method you seem to suggest (because conservative brain can't think of other methods), is a failure. Conservatives still love that failure and want to still keep it around after half a century of failing. I guess you also think gays just didn't exist 100 years ago and so on...
I don't mean to be dim but I have no idea why you brought up "eating habits." Joe Rogan could have killed millions. Drugs could have killed millions due to liberals' fault. Eating habits could have killed millions due to conservatives' fault (I don't personally see the causal link, but anyway). The fact that one or the other of these claims is true or not doesn't affect the others, they're independent. Like are you asking me "If Joe Rogan didn't cause any harm, then that means conservatives haven't killed millions by junk food." I'm saying, fine, sure, let's go. Conservatives killed millions with junk food. Now approximately what is the extent of Rogan's harms in your view?
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On October 16 2024 00:13 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 23:55 Velr wrote:It doesn't suprise me one bit that your off the opinion the vaccines were a sole US invention/product. But you got like 20 points to answer from others and me... So... Please, go at it. But for the sake of my clarification, are you saying that conservative failure to create a police state to tell people what to eat has killed millions? You can't be this dim. The war on drugs, which is the method you seem to suggest (because conservative brain can't think of other methods), is a failure. Conservatives still love that failure and want to still keep it around after half a century of failing. I guess you also think gays just didn't exist 100 years ago and so on... I don't mean to be dim but I have no idea why you brought up "eating habits." Joe Rogan could have killed millions. Drugs could have killed millions due to liberals' fault. Eating habits could have killed millions due to conservatives' fault (I don't personally see the causal link, but anyway). The fact that one or the other of these claims is true or not doesn't affect the others, they're independent. Like are you asking me "If Joe Rogan didn't cause any harm, then that means conservatives haven't killed millions by junk food." I'm saying, fine, sure, let's go. Conservatives killed millions with junk food. Now approximately what is the extent of Rogan's harms in your view?
Are you looking for a correlation like this? We can't establish cause-and-effect on such a topic.
Even after accounting for a wide range of well-studied social, political and demographic factors that influence intentions to vaccinate against the coronavirus, regular Rogan listeners — who made up 22 percent of our sample — were significantly less likely to intend to vaccinate than those who do not regularly listen.
However, we only found this pattern after the first round of federal government emergency-use approval for the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines in the study’s December and February waves. This coincides with when Rogan began to talk more — and skeptically — about the vaccines. For example, in January 2021, he said he may not receive a shot. That came after he moved from California to Texas to get “more freedom,” while disparaging people who wear masks. Shortly afterward, he posed maskless while meeting the Texas governor.
In short, Rogan repeatedly spread dubious coronavirus-related information. In December 2020, regular Rogan listeners’ intentions to vaccinate were 15 percentage points lower than those of non-listeners. By February 2021, they were 18 percentage points lower, both statistically significant effects.
That’s also noticeably different than for listeners of comparable radio programs and podcasts. Regular NPR radio and “The Daily” podcast listeners, for example, were statistically neither more or less likely to intend to vaccinate throughout the duration of the study and in some survey waves were even significantly more likely than non-listeners to intend to vaccinate. For example, in December 2020, NPR and “The Daily” listeners’ intentions to vaccinate were respectively 18 and 19 percentage points higher than those of non-listeners.
Our data is correlational. We cannot determine that listening to Rogan causes someone to become skeptical about the vaccine; people who are skeptical about the vaccine may be more likely to listen to Rogan. But we can conclude that Rogan’s audience is more likely to hesitate to get the vaccine, compared with listeners of our set of other podcasts and radio programs.
This finding is consistent with the idea that Rogan listeners may be heeding his and his guests’ nonexpert medical advice. As someone who is able to garner a truly massive audience in a very fragmented media landscape, Rogan’s voice becomes very important — both because he is influential and because his influence is often ignored by researchers and public health planners who tend to focus on legacy and social media. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/03/joe-rogan-told-his-millions-listeners-not-take-his-anti-vaccine-advice-seriously-is-it-too-late/
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On October 15 2024 08:26 BlackJack wrote:
Remember when we kicked off a global pandemic with Fauci telling us there's no reason to mask up and then later telling us he lied about that because we needed to save masks for healthcare workers? The government lying to our faces has done 10x the damage of Joe Rogan but of course people only want to talk about Joe Rogan being the problem.
Also want to point out that I vividly remember the gullible people regurgitating Fauci's lie about masks early in the pandemic. Ironically they would have been praised while the rest of us would have been shamed for spreading misinformation for pointing out the stupidity of saying "There's no reason to mask and also we need to save them for the healthcare workers."
Can you quote your source? Everywhere I google the best I can find is "You don't want to take masks away from the health care providers who are in real and present ganger of getting infected" "That would be the worst thing we can do. If we have them covered, then you could look back and say, maybe we need to broaden this."
That sounds pretty reasonable, can you provide the unreasonable version?
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On October 15 2024 22:52 oBlade wrote:Yeah this is definitely a spot to balance our range and level ourselves at least half the time. Vote for the guy Putin and Cheney endorsed because that's the last thing they'd expect.
Are you dumb enough to actually believe Putin genuinely endorsed Harris or are you just making a bad faith argument?
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On October 16 2024 00:48 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2024 08:26 BlackJack wrote:
Remember when we kicked off a global pandemic with Fauci telling us there's no reason to mask up and then later telling us he lied about that because we needed to save masks for healthcare workers? The government lying to our faces has done 10x the damage of Joe Rogan but of course people only want to talk about Joe Rogan being the problem.
Also want to point out that I vividly remember the gullible people regurgitating Fauci's lie about masks early in the pandemic. Ironically they would have been praised while the rest of us would have been shamed for spreading misinformation for pointing out the stupidity of saying "There's no reason to mask and also we need to save them for the healthcare workers." Can you quote your source? Everywhere I google the best I can find is "You don't want to take masks away from the health care providers who are in real and present ganger of getting infected" "That would be the worst thing we can do. If we have them covered, then you could look back and say, maybe we need to broaden this." That sounds pretty reasonable, can you provide the unreasonable version?
Google is hosed. Try Yandex.
Fauci: "no reason to be walking around with a mask"
Fauci later: we said that because we were concerned masks were in short supply for medical workers.
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