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On September 24 2024 10:14 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2024 07:56 Sadist wrote:
Does anyone think Trump will actually perform as well as 2020 either? Ya there are the die hards but im sure there are lots of voters who are also tired of his shit. Not to mention Jan 6th, Project 2025, etc.
Pretty much every poll has his approval underwater, but still at record highs. He's actually never been in as good a position to win, GH is right to point out that people here are getting out over their skis a bit. Jan 6th, not many people care about, Project 2025, as I keep saying, a silly thing to keep bringing up (and a sign of weakness). People still disapprove of Biden, think Trump did an OK job, and will forgive him for COVID (that last one is not unique to Trump). You can combine that with the obvious insincerity of Harris and her inability to articulate a reason why all the crazy left-wing things she said in 2020 she no longer believes, and people feel like Trump is a known quantity... and maybe life didn't suck with him around. Dems power players did manage to eject a feeble Biden, but they substituted in the second-worst candidate in his place. Trump can definitely win again.
People don't just ignore stuff.
They remake history to blame anyone but Trump.
Be it Lockdowns... That happened alrgely under Trump but are somehow only the Dems fault.
Be it everything else about early Covid-Handling... Trump screwed up big time, yet somehow it's the Dems fault.
Be it the deficit... Which Trump was famously bad at.
Be it his total inability to actually govern anything nationally or internationally... He was and is just an incompetent bumbling fool but somehow it's still the Dems fault.
Trump is not a nown quantity, he is a known disaster and if your not blind or in a cult, you see it. Dam near everything you bitch about today, is the result of Trumps 4 years of absolute incompetence, negligense and willfull dismantling of any sort of decency and conduct that was left after the Republicans went full retard because a black man became president.
The messaging of the Dems isn't perfect but it's not their fault that the Republicans somehow decided that Trump is the messiah.
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On September 24 2024 11:13 KwarK wrote:
Trump created the biggest single term increase in the deficit ever. People remember the handouts but not the borrowing.
Surely that's only bad if the price of borrowing increases for the US.
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I hear and read a lot about how Dems main problem is the perception that they did a horrible job on the economy because of inflation.
I am always surprised by how much we blame our politicians for problems that are affecting the whole world. If you are doing much worse than these countries around, sure, Blame your leaders. If it’s the same all around, and you are doing basically as bad as everybody else, maybe that’s just that it’s inescapable.
Everyone first world economy has suffered from extremely high inflation. It’s not a US thing, it’s not a Biden thing. It’s a world thing. Do people really believe America would have been sheltered from it if trump had been in power?
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Norway28691 Posts
If anything it's the opposite - the US has had less inflation than most other countries.
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The vice presidential debate is in one week. Apparently, Pete Buttigieg is helping Tim Walz prepare to debate JD Vance, which will probably be far more useful than when Matt Gaetz and Tulsi Gabbard tried to prepare Donald Trump to appear strong and coherent and emotionally stable during his failure of a debate against Kamala Harris.
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On September 24 2024 20:12 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2024 10:14 Introvert wrote:On September 24 2024 07:56 Sadist wrote:
Does anyone think Trump will actually perform as well as 2020 either? Ya there are the die hards but im sure there are lots of voters who are also tired of his shit. Not to mention Jan 6th, Project 2025, etc.
Pretty much every poll has his approval underwater, but still at record highs. He's actually never been in as good a position to win, GH is right to point out that people here are getting out over their skis a bit. Jan 6th, not many people care about, Project 2025, as I keep saying, a silly thing to keep bringing up (and a sign of weakness). People still disapprove of Biden, think Trump did an OK job, and will forgive him for COVID (that last one is not unique to Trump). You can combine that with the obvious insincerity of Harris and her inability to articulate a reason why all the crazy left-wing things she said in 2020 she no longer believes, and people feel like Trump is a known quantity... and maybe life didn't suck with him around. Dems power players did manage to eject a feeble Biden, but they substituted in the second-worst candidate in his place. Trump can definitely win again. People don't just ignore stuff. They remake history to blame anyone but Trump. Be it Lockdowns... That happened alrgely under Trump but are somehow only the Dems fault. Be it everything else about early Covid-Handling... Trump screwed up big time, yet somehow it's the Dems fault. Be it the deficit... Which Trump was famously bad at. Be it his total inability to actually govern anything nationally or internationally... He was and is just an incompetent bumbling fool but somehow it's still the Dems fault. Trump is not a nown quantity, he is a known disaster and if your not blind or in a cult, you see it. Dam near everything you bitch about today, is the result of Trumps 4 years of absolute incompetence, negligense and willfull dismantling of any sort of decency and conduct that was left after the Republicans went full retard because a black man became president. The messaging of the Dems isn't perfect but it's not their fault that the Republicans somehow decided that Trump is the messiah.
Lockdowns are largely done at the local level and it’s not disputable that Democrat leaders had a much heavier hand than Republican leaders when it comes to lockdowns. It’s not really the point you want to lead with when your grievance is people rewriting history.
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On September 24 2024 18:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2024 13:40 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2024 10:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 24 2024 10:14 Introvert wrote:On September 24 2024 07:56 Sadist wrote:
Does anyone think Trump will actually perform as well as 2020 either? Ya there are the die hards but im sure there are lots of voters who are also tired of his shit. Not to mention Jan 6th, Project 2025, etc.
Pretty much every poll has his approval underwater, but still at record highs. He's actually never been in as good a position to win, GH is right to point out that people here are getting out over their skis a bit. Jan 6th, not many people care about, Project 2025, as I keep saying, a silly thing to keep bringing up (and a sign of weakness). People still disapprove of Biden, think Trump did an OK job, and will forgive him for COVID (that last one is not unique to Trump). You can combine that with the obvious insincerity of Harris and her inability to articulate a reason why all the crazy left-wing things she said in 2020 she no longer believes, and people feel like Trump is a known quantity... and maybe life didn't suck with him around. Dems power players did manage to eject a feeble Biden, but they substituted in the second-worst candidate in his place. Trump can definitely win again. It's absolutely insane to me that some people don't care about January 6th or Project 2025 or Trump's mishandling of covid, or just deny the existence/importance of all those things, imo. Project 2025: messaging on this is so stupid. This proves there are still some Biden political operatives defining messaging strategy. This has boomer dem stupidity all over it. No one knows specific details and they just kinda understand it’s some kinda conservative strategy guide describing all their ideal scenarios. The messaging opportunities are the details. Describing specific immoral p2025 objectives would be so much more effective. We don’t need to list the whole damn thing lol. Hammer home all the reproductive stuff and education stuff. I think it’s a major mistake for democrat strategy to refer to it in entirety rather than snippets. Jan6: long time ago and people are unaware of his specific involvement. It’s another topic that is easy to ignore when referenced in its entirety I agree that messaging by the Dems needs to be vastly improved. That's different than the underlying substance of January 6 and Project 2025 not being big deals.
Introvert is saying someone he knows doesn’t view them as important. If Democrats are shitting the bed in their duty to inform people, it’s on them. We can blame the dumbass voters all day but we all knew this would be the case. I’m just saying democrats failed to reach the person introvert is describing.
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On September 24 2024 21:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If anything it's the opposite - the US has had less inflation than most other countries.
After seeing a post on Reddit about the economic situation in Canada right now, my eyes went wide and I did some additional reading. Holy smokes it’s like actually very bad. The comparison to the economic recovery of the US is insane. They can’t be perfectly compared but god damn it showed me how lucky I am to be here and not there.
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On September 25 2024 00:25 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2024 18:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 24 2024 13:40 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2024 10:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 24 2024 10:14 Introvert wrote:On September 24 2024 07:56 Sadist wrote:
Does anyone think Trump will actually perform as well as 2020 either? Ya there are the die hards but im sure there are lots of voters who are also tired of his shit. Not to mention Jan 6th, Project 2025, etc.
Pretty much every poll has his approval underwater, but still at record highs. He's actually never been in as good a position to win, GH is right to point out that people here are getting out over their skis a bit. Jan 6th, not many people care about, Project 2025, as I keep saying, a silly thing to keep bringing up (and a sign of weakness). People still disapprove of Biden, think Trump did an OK job, and will forgive him for COVID (that last one is not unique to Trump). You can combine that with the obvious insincerity of Harris and her inability to articulate a reason why all the crazy left-wing things she said in 2020 she no longer believes, and people feel like Trump is a known quantity... and maybe life didn't suck with him around. Dems power players did manage to eject a feeble Biden, but they substituted in the second-worst candidate in his place. Trump can definitely win again. It's absolutely insane to me that some people don't care about January 6th or Project 2025 or Trump's mishandling of covid, or just deny the existence/importance of all those things, imo. Project 2025: messaging on this is so stupid. This proves there are still some Biden political operatives defining messaging strategy. This has boomer dem stupidity all over it. No one knows specific details and they just kinda understand it’s some kinda conservative strategy guide describing all their ideal scenarios. The messaging opportunities are the details. Describing specific immoral p2025 objectives would be so much more effective. We don’t need to list the whole damn thing lol. Hammer home all the reproductive stuff and education stuff. I think it’s a major mistake for democrat strategy to refer to it in entirety rather than snippets. Jan6: long time ago and people are unaware of his specific involvement. It’s another topic that is easy to ignore when referenced in its entirety I agree that messaging by the Dems needs to be vastly improved. That's different than the underlying substance of January 6 and Project 2025 not being big deals. Introvert is saying someone he knows doesn’t view them as important. If Democrats are shitting the bed in their duty to inform people, it’s on them. We can blame the dumbass voters all day but we all knew this would be the case. I’m just saying democrats failed to reach the person introvert is describing.
I think there are probably two groups:
- those who don't understand the substance and therefore don't know why they should care or be alarmed (messaging failure on the side of the Democrats);
- those who understand the substance yet still don't consider those things to be important... or actually prefer what January 6th and Project 2025 truly represent (people who are extremely conservative and/or pro-Trump-no-matter-what)
For those who are still uninformed and potentially persuadable, the Democrats need to reach out and communicate better. As for that second group... well, we just need to have more votes than that other group.
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On September 24 2024 20:12 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2024 10:14 Introvert wrote:On September 24 2024 07:56 Sadist wrote:
Does anyone think Trump will actually perform as well as 2020 either? Ya there are the die hards but im sure there are lots of voters who are also tired of his shit. Not to mention Jan 6th, Project 2025, etc.
Pretty much every poll has his approval underwater, but still at record highs. He's actually never been in as good a position to win, GH is right to point out that people here are getting out over their skis a bit. Jan 6th, not many people care about, Project 2025, as I keep saying, a silly thing to keep bringing up (and a sign of weakness). People still disapprove of Biden, think Trump did an OK job, and will forgive him for COVID (that last one is not unique to Trump). You can combine that with the obvious insincerity of Harris and her inability to articulate a reason why all the crazy left-wing things she said in 2020 she no longer believes, and people feel like Trump is a known quantity... and maybe life didn't suck with him around. Dems power players did manage to eject a feeble Biden, but they substituted in the second-worst candidate in his place. Trump can definitely win again. + Show Spoiler +People don't just ignore stuff.
They remake history to blame anyone but Trump.
Be it Lockdowns... That happened alrgely under Trump but are somehow only the Dems fault.
Be it everything else about early Covid-Handling... Trump screwed up big time, yet somehow it's the Dems fault.
Be it the deficit... Which Trump was famously bad at.
Be it his total inability to actually govern anything nationally or internationally... He was and is just an incompetent bumbling fool but somehow it's still the Dems fault.
Trump is not a nown quantity, he is a known disaster and if your not blind or in a cult, you see it. Dam near everything you bitch about today, is the result of Trumps 4 years of absolute incompetence, negligense and willfull dismantling of any sort of decency and conduct that was left after the Republicans went full retard because a black man became president. The messaging of the Dems isn't perfect but it's not their fault that the Republicans somehow decided that Trump is the messiah.
Not entirely their fault, but Democrats definitely share the blame. Besides their "pied piper" strategy of intentionally trying to get Republicans to support Trump, for decades Democrats happily took his bribes donations, went to his parties, celebrated his celebrity, and treated him like a savvy businessman instead of the obvious crook he's always been.
Diddy, Epstein, Weinstein, Trump, etc, we can't honestly pretend their bipartisan friends/associates were shocked to find out they were up to no good. Or that them staying quiet about it wasn't integral to these deplorables rises and "successes".
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Presidents continue to not control the deficit - only literally 6 people in the entire Congress voted against the CARES Act, the largest spending in history. A few more might have in the Senate had Rand Paul not been out sick. So the rest of Congress, rather than quadrennial president hysteria, is a good place to start if you don't like the government borrowing your future money and spending it for themselves.
CPI is not inflation - it's a metric, it quantifies, attempts to measure inflation in a way, but not a foolproof way. Inflation is a phenomenon, where prices increase. The idea is this is slightly good insofar as it correlates to people getting richer, but slightly bad insofar as things get more expensive. There's no one number you point to that represents that phenomenon. Despite that you might find or invent an apparently objective metric, as in CPI. As an analogy, intelligence is an abstract trait, clearly something we can conceptualize as existing. But try to measure it and quantify it, you only get so far and invariably lose something. Different countries calculate differently. You can calculate with or without the very rich, very poor, retired, etc. You can conservatively estimate substitution or overestimate substitution. You can weigh based on whatever criteria you like at whatever time interval you like. The US uses CPI but also PCE. Either is ultimately a limited view of the economic picture as you might want to legislate wages based on CPI, but in the meantime wages could be doubling while CPI looks to be an apparently alarming 10% in which case you'd be killing it in terms of real wages. To which point you'd rather have 10% inflation and 10% wage growth than 5% inflation and flat wages, in a vacuum one direction of number will always look better than another, but be careful of vast conclusions from half vast data, the guy with 140 IQ doesn't automatically cream the guy who tested 130 when they play Jeopardy together.
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United States43017 Posts
Was Trump also not responsible for his flagship tax cuts legislation?
Also if Trump wasn’t involved in giving away the money then why did he specifically delay the checks being sent out so that they could be reprinted with his signature on them and a letter saying that he was providing the aid?
I feel like the signed letter saying that it was him that he mailed to a hundred million households probably beats your assertion that it wasn’t.
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On September 25 2024 00:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2024 00:25 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2024 18:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 24 2024 13:40 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2024 10:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 24 2024 10:14 Introvert wrote:On September 24 2024 07:56 Sadist wrote:
Does anyone think Trump will actually perform as well as 2020 either? Ya there are the die hards but im sure there are lots of voters who are also tired of his shit. Not to mention Jan 6th, Project 2025, etc.
Pretty much every poll has his approval underwater, but still at record highs. He's actually never been in as good a position to win, GH is right to point out that people here are getting out over their skis a bit. Jan 6th, not many people care about, Project 2025, as I keep saying, a silly thing to keep bringing up (and a sign of weakness). People still disapprove of Biden, think Trump did an OK job, and will forgive him for COVID (that last one is not unique to Trump). You can combine that with the obvious insincerity of Harris and her inability to articulate a reason why all the crazy left-wing things she said in 2020 she no longer believes, and people feel like Trump is a known quantity... and maybe life didn't suck with him around. Dems power players did manage to eject a feeble Biden, but they substituted in the second-worst candidate in his place. Trump can definitely win again. It's absolutely insane to me that some people don't care about January 6th or Project 2025 or Trump's mishandling of covid, or just deny the existence/importance of all those things, imo. Project 2025: messaging on this is so stupid. This proves there are still some Biden political operatives defining messaging strategy. This has boomer dem stupidity all over it. No one knows specific details and they just kinda understand it’s some kinda conservative strategy guide describing all their ideal scenarios. The messaging opportunities are the details. Describing specific immoral p2025 objectives would be so much more effective. We don’t need to list the whole damn thing lol. Hammer home all the reproductive stuff and education stuff. I think it’s a major mistake for democrat strategy to refer to it in entirety rather than snippets. Jan6: long time ago and people are unaware of his specific involvement. It’s another topic that is easy to ignore when referenced in its entirety I agree that messaging by the Dems needs to be vastly improved. That's different than the underlying substance of January 6 and Project 2025 not being big deals. Introvert is saying someone he knows doesn’t view them as important. If Democrats are shitting the bed in their duty to inform people, it’s on them. We can blame the dumbass voters all day but we all knew this would be the case. I’m just saying democrats failed to reach the person introvert is describing. I think there are probably two groups: - those who don't understand the substance and therefore don't know why they should care or be alarmed (messaging failure on the side of the Democrats); - those who understand the substance yet still don't consider those things to be important... or actually prefer what January 6th and Project 2025 truly represent (people who are extremely conservative and/or pro-Trump-no-matter-what) For those who are still uninformed and potentially persuadable, the Democrats need to reach out and communicate better. As for that second group... well, we just need to have more votes than that other group.
I get what you're saying, but my impression was that Introvert was describing a "on the fence" voter who didn't view J6 and P2025 as particularly troubling issues.
A lot of research indicates the major disparity between how democrats and republicans view J6 and P2025 is rooted in established facts. The list of "things that are true" are completely different. The same research indicates there isn't a ton a politician can do to overcome this barrier for a large % of entrenched republicans. But just like has always been the case, pendulum voters who can't be bothered to consume any information beyond what is spoon fed are a huge factor in determining swing states.
To be more direct: My impression is that the smooth brain voter Introvert described may have made a different decision if democrats did a better job at spoon feeding them.
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I question any voter 'on the fence' about an actual insurrection attempt and the plan to turn the US into a Christian nationalist state as actually being 'on the fence'.
Not being sure about where they stand on that lands them rather firmly on one side of the fence for me.
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On September 25 2024 05:54 Gorsameth wrote:
I question any voter 'on the fence' about an actual insurrection attempt and the plan to turn the US into a Christian nationalist state as actually being 'on the fence'.
Not being sure about where they stand on that lands them rather firmly on one side of the fence for me.
These voters generally see J6 as a bunch of rowdy folks upset about the election. They see it as mostly just a riot. They haven’t been convinced of any direct Trump involvement or any credible effort to prevent Biden from being president”
That’s what I’m saying. That impression is very common. It represents a failure by democrats to find a way to drill home an approachable factoid to convince people J6 was much more than a group of rowdy conservatives
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On September 25 2024 06:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2024 05:54 Gorsameth wrote:
I question any voter 'on the fence' about an actual insurrection attempt and the plan to turn the US into a Christian nationalist state as actually being 'on the fence'.
Not being sure about where they stand on that lands them rather firmly on one side of the fence for me. These voters generally see J6 as a bunch of rowdy folks upset about the election. They see it as mostly just a riot. They haven’t been convinced of any direct Trump involvement or any credible effort to prevent Biden from being president” That’s what I’m saying. That impression is very common. It represents a failure by democrats to find a way to drill home an approachable factoid to convince people J6 was much more than a group of rowdy conservatives
I'm not sure what else they could have done to be honest.
Honestly I think if you see Jan 6 or have looked into what happened or listened to anything that anyone non-republican has said about it then you already know it wasn't just a bunch of rowdy conservatives.
I think its more likely that people look at the mixed messages about the economy, look at how their lives were under Trump and how they were under Biden and don't really see that much difference for themselves between the two.
I don't think its a failure of understanding or not caring, its just a difference in priorities.
They might be thinking 'gee, I wish there were less immigrants around but that Trump sure is an asshole'.
Or 'Wow those republicans sure have made it harder to be a woman, but I don't want the democrats interfering in my life with their massive government machinery'
There's a million scenarios where its justified to be on the fence, unless you happen to want to focus in on J6.
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I don't know what messaging would be good enough. Facts are readily discarded, contested, or flatly invented in common discourse. Things like "Pence literally prevented a coup" aren't fact enough to stand uncontested.
When neither side is 100% trustworthy and one side's main goal is just to muddy the waters, it's incredibly difficult to imagine a message clear and true enough to actually cut through.
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On September 25 2024 07:11 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2024 06:12 Mohdoo wrote:On September 25 2024 05:54 Gorsameth wrote:
I question any voter 'on the fence' about an actual insurrection attempt and the plan to turn the US into a Christian nationalist state as actually being 'on the fence'.
Not being sure about where they stand on that lands them rather firmly on one side of the fence for me. These voters generally see J6 as a bunch of rowdy folks upset about the election. They see it as mostly just a riot. They haven’t been convinced of any direct Trump involvement or any credible effort to prevent Biden from being president” That’s what I’m saying. That impression is very common. It represents a failure by democrats to find a way to drill home an approachable factoid to convince people J6 was much more than a group of rowdy conservatives I'm not sure what else they could have done to be honest. Honestly I think if you see Jan 6 or have looked into what happened or listened to anything that anyone non-republican has said about it then you already know it wasn't just a bunch of rowdy conservatives. I think its more likely that people look at the mixed messages about the economy, look at how their lives were under Trump and how they were under Biden and don't really see that much difference for themselves between the two. I don't think its a failure of understanding or not caring, its just a difference in priorities. They might be thinking 'gee, I wish there were less immigrants around but that Trump sure is an asshole'. Or 'Wow those republicans sure have made it harder to be a woman, but I don't want the democrats interfering in my life with their massive government machinery' There's a million scenarios where its justified to be on the fence, unless you happen to want to focus in on J6.
Sorry for being unclear. My post was only focused on “why do some people think either J6 or P2025 represent significant moral failings by Trump?”. People can think neither topic represent a significant moral failing by Trump and still vote for democrats for other reasons. Or people can think both topics are significant and represent significant moral failings by Trump and still vote for Trump for other reasons. There are many other factors, as you described. I was only highlighting why I think it’s important democrats at least make sure they do a good job at helping as many people as possible understand the details of why they are both significant moral failings by Trump. Once they send that message effectively, they’ve done all they can. But they are definitely not meeting what I consider the minimum standard of successful messaging.
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The problem isn’t the messaging, it’s the messengers. Trump is the next Hitler. Trump is going to declare martial law and round people up. Trump is going to start executing journalists. Trump is going to start world war 3. Blah blah blah. The same things were said in 2016 too and none of it panned out. It doesn’t work to say after the fact “ok I know Trump isn’t actually as bad as Hitler but Jan 6 was pretty fucked up, am I right?” If they didn’t cry wolf in the most hyperbolic hysterical fashion then they might get more people to take them seriously this one time.
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EPT
