EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 4398
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
micronesia
United States24648 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44107 Posts
"The suspect, Ryan Wesley Routh, 58, also had a GoPro camera and a backpack with ceramic tiles when he was near the course." https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/live-blog/live-updates-trump-campaign-says-trump-safe-gunshots-florida-rcna171212 If the suspect is the Ryan Routh whose tweets are currently being dug up and passed around, then he's a Republican, voted for Trump in 2016, and supports other politicians including Vivek Ramaswamy, Nikki Haley, and Tulsi Gabbard: https://x.com/cturnbull1968/status/1835448679760552300/photo/1 https://x.com/Angry_Staffer/status/1835457271385538798/photo/1 The comments on this one: https://x.com/RyanRouth/status/1526777087411077120 I wonder if oBlade and BlackJack would still consider this assassination attempt to be "stochastic terrorism" if it turned out this guy was indeed a Republican who was a follower of Ramaswamy, Haley, and Gabbard. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44107 Posts
"He was around 300 to 500 yards away from Trump at the time. West Palm Beach Sheriff Ric Bradshaw said in a press conference that, at around 1: 30 p.m., Secret Service agents had spotted the butt of the gun through the fence and fired shots toward Routh. It is not clear if the accused gunman opened fire." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-shooting-suspect-florida-assassination-attempt-b2613312.html "Secret Service agents spotted and fired on a gunman in bushes near the property line of the golf course, a few hundred yards from where Trump was playing, law enforcement officials said." https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-is-safe-following-gunshots-his-vicinity-says-campaign-2024-09-15/ "Secret Service officials said it was not clear if the suspect fired any shots." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-gunshots-safe-florida/ | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2636 Posts
On September 16 2024 10:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: As was mentioned earlier, the suspect did not shoot at Trump... but do we even know if the suspect fired his weapon at all? I've read many reports saying things like "gunshots were heard" and "the Secret Service shot at the suspect", but I haven't been able to find any confirmation that the suspect shot his AK-47 at all, or if the gunfire was just from the Secret Service. Sources like the ones below are pretty ambiguous: "He was around 300 to 500 yards away from Trump at the time. West Palm Beach Sheriff Ric Bradshaw said in a press conference that, at around 1: 30 p.m., Secret Service agents had spotted the butt of the gun through the fence and fired shots toward Routh. It is not clear if the accused gunman opened fire." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-shooting-suspect-florida-assassination-attempt-b2613312.html "Secret Service agents spotted and fired on a gunman in bushes near the property line of the golf course, a few hundred yards from where Trump was playing, law enforcement officials said." https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-is-safe-following-gunshots-his-vicinity-says-campaign-2024-09-15/ "Secret Service officials said it was not clear if the suspect fired any shots." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-gunshots-safe-florida/ The guardian is treating this as a foiled assassination attempt before it even started, which sounds like the right approach. | ||
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oBlade
United States5478 Posts
On September 16 2024 08:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I wonder if oBlade and BlackJack would still consider this assassination attempt to be "stochastic terrorism" if it turned out this guy was indeed a Republican who was a follower of Ramaswamy, Haley, and Gabbard. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. I don't consider things to be stochastic terrorism because I have a brain. If you want to invent a category of speech that negates personal agency and acts as a magic spell to get people thousands of miles away you've never met to do shit, then 8 years of calling someone a threat to democracy, Russian puppet, and laughing about assassinating him just seems to fit the bill as an observer. Why would I care about the voting record of the mentally ill? | ||
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PoulsenB
Poland7710 Posts
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Broetchenholer
Germany1885 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28623 Posts
On September 16 2024 16:17 PoulsenB wrote: I know that assassinations (attempted or otherwise) of presidential candidates and presidents have a long tradition in the US, but have there ever been two of those against a single candidate? Ya. Quickly going through wikipedia - Gerald Ford had two actual attempts (neither hit him) Obama had 11 uncovered plots against his life Bill Clinton 5 Dubya 2 Since FDR, only LBJ and Eisenhower have not had plots uncovered or actual attempts. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44107 Posts
On September 16 2024 15:40 oBlade wrote: I don't consider things to be stochastic terrorism because I have a brain. If you want to invent a category of speech that negates personal agency and acts as a magic spell to get people thousands of miles away you've never met to do shit, then 8 years of calling someone a threat to democracy, Russian puppet, and laughing about assassinating him just seems to fit the bill as an observer. Why would I care about the voting record of the mentally ill? I'm glad to see you've changed your mind*, although please realize I didn't invent the term "stochastic terrorism". Do you also finally concede that you were wrong when you said the Florida suspect shot at Trump? *I wonder if BJ will change his mind too, or if he thinks the supposed "vitriol" from Democrats would still convince a hardcore Republican to try to assassinate Trump. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24839 Posts
On September 16 2024 17:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm glad to see you've changed your mind*, although please realize I didn't invent the term "stochastic terrorism". Do you also finally concede that you were wrong when you said the Florida suspect shot at Trump? *I wonder if BJ will change his mind too, or if he thinks the supposed "vitriol" from Democrats would still convince a hardcore Republican to try to assassinate Trump. I mean personally I can’t see a difference between accurate observations on what an individual amongst the most publicly prominent in the entire world does and says on public record, and just making stuff up about x group or individual. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24839 Posts
On September 16 2024 08:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: For as much as I hate Trump, I'm also happy that this second assassination attempt was foiled. I'd much rather have him lose on Election Day. If he wins the election... then I still would prefer him to die of natural causes, rather than him being assassinated. Yeah, they wrote "Anyone who murders Kamala Harris would be an American hero", then took down the tweet not because it was morally wrong, but because: "We deleted a tweet because we don't want to break the terms of this website we agreed to. It's a shame that even on a "free speech" website that libertarians cannot speak freely. Libertarians are truly the most oppressed minority." https://x.com/ColinGBooth/status/1835313789320769567/photo/1 https://x.com/LPNH/status/1835310685095628880 They need to fuck allll the way off. That is a satirical account right? Right? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44107 Posts
On September 16 2024 17:21 WombaT wrote: I mean personally I can’t see a difference between accurate observations on what an individual amongst the most publicly prominent in the entire world does and says on public record, and just making stuff up about x group or individual. Same thing, potato potahto. In other American gun-related news, the recent school shooting in Georgia has led to both the 14-year-old shooter *and his father* to be arrested. "Colin Gray, 54, is being charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter, two counts of second-degree murder and eight counts of cruelty to children, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation said Thursday when the agency announced his arrest. The 14-year-old shooting suspect has been charged with four counts of felony murder." https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna170794 | ||
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BlackJack
United States10384 Posts
On September 16 2024 17:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm glad to see you've changed your mind*, although please realize I didn't invent the term "stochastic terrorism". Do you also finally concede that you were wrong when you said the Florida suspect shot at Trump? *I wonder if BJ will change his mind too, or if he thinks the supposed "vitriol" from Democrats would still convince a hardcore Republican to try to assassinate Trump. What do you want to know? I offered 2 opinions here 1. If someone with a gun tries to kill Trump it’s stupid to try to make a huge deal of how close the bullet got. You seem stuck on this as if it changes anything and I don’t know what you think it changes 2. I’m mocking the pearl clutching people on the left due over the stochastic terrorism towards Asians over “China virus” for example but they have nary a word to say about anti-Semitic violence after their pro-Hamas rallies. No, I haven’t changed my mind on either point. | ||
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oBlade
United States5478 Posts
On September 16 2024 17:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm glad to see you've changed your mind*, although please realize I didn't invent the term "stochastic terrorism". Do you also finally concede that you were wrong when you said the Florida suspect shot at Trump? *I wonder if BJ will change his mind too, or if he thinks the supposed "vitriol" from Democrats would still convince a hardcore Republican to try to assassinate Trump. I didn't say he shot at Trump, I said he was taking shots. Using the obvious expression that taking a shot means attempting something, my statement is 100% correct in perpetuity with the same force of truth as the courageous hero Tim Walz saying he "went to" Afghanistan. The "you" is not a direct "you," it's a general "you," as anyone should have figured out but for some reason these linguistic stumbling blocks keep rearing their heads. Under a presumption that "stochastic terrorism" is something that exists, saying "immigration is bad" does not seem to clear the bar as much as "this guy is a threat to democracy and has to be eliminated." Every time someone tries to assassinate Trump, you do your best to spam us with proof that it was actually an evil Republican. For what reason, I have no idea. This guy was a Ukraine nut who thought Trump was Hitler. Tulsi Gabbard was a Democrat. If Trump is an outsider, Vivek is the outsider's outsider. "Hardcore Republican" is the least useful way to describe a nutcase who donates to Democrats and says Trump's campaign should be called Make America Slave And Master Again. The Democrats have been able to convince Republicans who shoot people all the way up to Dick Cheney that Trump is bad and they should vote for Kamala. Why would I expect this random nutjob to be immune? Look closely at his Twitter and I don't get the sense he was merely trying to make room for Vance to be at the top of the ticket - who you productively described as "beta-cuck-simp" which without analyzing too much I'm going to assume means less "extreme" than Trump. If purveyors of vitriolic disinformation didn't think it had a propagandizing effect on people, they wouldn't have gone all-in with their careers on it for a decade now. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44107 Posts
On September 16 2024 17:30 BlackJack wrote: What do you want to know? I offered 2 opinions here 1. If someone with a gun tries to kill Trump it’s stupid to try to make a huge deal of how close the bullet got. You seem stuck on this as if it changes anything and I don’t know what you think it changes Except that's a misrepresentation of what was actually being discussed. This second assassination attempt didn't have a suspect shooting at Trump - the suspect just didn't get that far in his plan and may not have even fired a weapon at all - and the issue was correcting oBlade's assertion that the suspect was shooting at Trump. How are you going to reframe this as "how close the bullet got" to Trump, when there may not have been any bullets from the suspect's gun at all? (As Fleetfeet pointed out, this is "part strawman".) 2. I’m mocking the pearl clutching people on the left due over the stochastic terrorism towards Asians over “China virus” for example but they have nary a word to say about anti-Semitic violence after their pro-Hamas rallies. No, I haven’t changed my mind on either point. Asserting that the left doesn't care about anti-Semitism is wrong and a completely different subject altogether. Changing the subject like this doesn't magically make bullets fly out of the Florida suspect's gun and aim themselves towards Donald Trump. (As Fleetfeet pointed out, this is "part whataboutism".) On September 16 2024 17:35 oBlade wrote: I didn't say he shot at Trump, I said he was taking shots. lol. Here we go with the verb tenses again. I'm also eagerly awaiting the moment when you try and change "shots" to mean something like "I just meant people were taking shots - drinking shots - in honor of Trump! Tequila shots, not gun shots!" | ||
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BlackJack
United States10384 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44107 Posts
On September 16 2024 18:05 BlackJack wrote: Like I said, I really don't understand why you think "The attempted assassin didn't even get a shot off! A-ha!" is some kind of relevant point you need to argue to death. Ok, you corrected oBlade's statement that the guy didn't "shoot at Trump" or whatever. So...? He still showed up with a gun to kill him, right? That seems to be the case, yes. Correcting the claims surrounding the situation doesn't mean we're dismissing the situation. The reporting, so far, points to this indeed being a second assassination attempt, and I'm glad it was foiled. Perhaps we'll learn even more over the next few days. | ||
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oBlade
United States5478 Posts
There's no evidence of this being stochastic terrorism, just a guy who hated Trump and wanted to pretend to kill him because he was an enemy of Ukraine because that's what the TV told him for years. I draw the line at actually shooting a bullet at a president. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On September 16 2024 08:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: It seems that we're starting to learn some information about the suspect: "The suspect, Ryan Wesley Routh, 58, also had a GoPro camera and a backpack with ceramic tiles when he was near the course." https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/live-blog/live-updates-trump-campaign-says-trump-safe-gunshots-florida-rcna171212 If the suspect is the Ryan Routh whose tweets are currently being dug up and passed around, then he's a Republican, voted for Trump in 2016, and supports other politicians including Vivek Ramaswamy, Nikki Haley, and Tulsi Gabbard: https://x.com/cturnbull1968/status/1835448679760552300/photo/1 https://x.com/Angry_Staffer/status/1835457271385538798/photo/1 The comments on this one: https://x.com/RyanRouth/status/1526777087411077120 I wonder if oBlade and BlackJack would still consider this assassination attempt to be "stochastic terrorism" if it turned out this guy was indeed a Republican who was a follower of Ramaswamy, Haley, and Gabbard. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. He seems to be a very ardent supporter of Ukraine and was trying to recruit foreign fighers to fight for Ukraine. My hypothesis, after 2022 it became clear to him that Trump was no friend of Ukraine and so he had to go. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44107 Posts
On September 16 2024 18:59 ahswtini wrote: He seems to be a very ardent supporter of Ukraine and was trying to recruit foreign fighers to fight for Ukraine. My hypothesis, after 2022 it became clear to him that Trump was no friend of Ukraine and so he had to go. I read about that too, and yeah that seems to possibly be a pivotal issue for the suspect. I wonder if the suspect was motivated by Trump's repeated pro-Russia and anti-Ukraine rhetoric. The suspect is alive and in custody, so perhaps he'll clarify why he wanted to assassinate Trump. | ||
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