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On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2024 22:47 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
This is more or less where I land atm, if Trump loses this next election and becomes just completely and absolutely too old to win another election then with Democrats having such a barren talent pool I dont see them doing any better than our previous pattern of switching between Republican presidents and Democrat presidents, which means we'll just most probably be fucked.
I'd really like to know if the Democrats actually have anything special to do about this because a party who is focused on incremental change over a long period of time with a fixation on norms that prevents them from exercising power in the way their opponents do feels like one of the worst sorts of parties to have when fighting a rising tide of fascism
What's particularly interesting is that Democrats have all the power they need to do anything they want right now and they are refusing to exercise it while demanding people vote for them anyway. Biden has to exploit this ruling to do something massively popular or he's done for. Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
What's particularly interesting is that Democrats have all the power they need to do anything they want right now and they are refusing to exercise it while demanding people vote for them anyway.
Biden has to exploit this ruling to do something massively popular or he's done for. Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official.
As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside.
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On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
What's particularly interesting is that Democrats have all the power they need to do anything they want right now and they are refusing to exercise it while demanding people vote for them anyway.
Biden has to exploit this ruling to do something massively popular or he's done for. Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination.
The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now.
He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP.
On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
What's particularly interesting is that Democrats have all the power they need to do anything they want right now and they are refusing to exercise it while demanding people vote for them anyway.
Biden has to exploit this ruling to do something massively popular or he's done for. Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside.
I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official.
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On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
You mean "using his legal capacities"?
Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not)
replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down.
He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that.
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On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
You mean "using his legal capacities"?
Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
You mean "using his legal capacities"?
Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that.
Yeah, people are being really dense about this. It's like they read the headlines that say the SCOTUS ruling makes the President a King and they don't think much more than "Oh the President is a King now so he can do whatever he wants" without even taking 5 seconds to imagine what it would look like for Biden to try to send the military to assassinate people and the ten thousand ways that can backfire.
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On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
You mean "using his legal capacities"?
Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
You mean "using his legal capacities"?
Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that.
You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill.
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On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all.
This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result.
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On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote] First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy".
Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy"
Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with.
You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result.
I agree that replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, but I worry that the Supreme Court would correctly make that call if Biden tried it, but then deceptively say it's acceptable if Trump tried it. Biden = Personal = No; Trump = Official = Yes. Clearly, the Supreme Court would be more than open to creating double standards where Biden is held to normal (or even unfairly harsh) levels of accountability, whereas they might also let Trump slide on the same (or even worse) actions.
I feel like the Supreme Court could/would have committed that unfair double standard even before the recent "official vs. personal" formal ruling, but I think this ruling highlights the conservative Justices' perspective that they're eager to do it, if given the opportunity, and interested in absolving Trump in every way possible.
Also, unfortunately, even if Biden does everything in his power to save democracy from the Supreme Court and from Donald Trump, I still don't see it reflecting positively on him through polling.
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On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 02:35 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
I think the odds we get democracy back from Democrats are higher than the odds we get it back from Trump and the Republicans tbh Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote] First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy".
Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy"
Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with.
You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result.
You don't get it.
Ordering the military is unambiguously an official act. So Biden/Trump if he wins, can order them to do whatever he wants(Trump has already floated dragging Congress and others into military tribunals), and then start having them shot for treason if they refuse.
If he doesn't want to lose control to a military coup though, he can't disregard and strongarm the military willy nilly. He's gotta finesse the situation some for sure. I understand what you're trying to argue, but you really and truly are not understanding the magnitude of this SCOTUS decision.
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On July 03 2024 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for.
So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. You don't get it. Ordering the military is unambiguously an official act. So Biden/Trump if he wins, can order them to do whatever he wants( Trump has already floated dragging Congress and others into military tribunals), and then start having them shot for treason if they refuse. If he doesn't want to lose control to a military coup though, he can't disregard and strongarm the military willy nilly. He's gotta finesse the situation some for sure. I understand what you're trying to argue, but you really and truly are not understanding the magnitude of this SCOTUS decision. I says Biden could have Trump and SCOTUS assassinated when the decision came through, I know.
But I thought we established that Biden wasn't going to do that, and what he could do instead.
And you offered that he could push through democratic legislation, which he can't. Because the President does not write laws. At best he can do some Executive Orders that will inevitably get challenged so if you go that route your better off waiting for closer to the actual election.
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On July 03 2024 04:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:09 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Sure, but I still don't love it. Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for. So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for.
So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. + Show Spoiler +I agree that replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, but I worry that the Supreme Court would correctly make that call if Biden tried it, but then deceptively say it's acceptable if Trump tried it. Biden = Personal = No; Trump = Official = Yes. Clearly, the Supreme Court would be more than open to creating double standards where Biden is held to normal (or even unfairly harsh) levels of accountability, whereas they might also let Trump slide on the same (or even worse) actions.
I feel like the Supreme Court could/would have committed that unfair double standard even before the recent "official vs. personal" formal ruling, but I think this ruling highlights the conservative Justices' perspective that they're eager to do it, if given the opportunity, and interested in absolving Trump in every way possible.
Also, unfortunately, even if Biden does everything in his power to save democracy from the Supreme Court and from Donald Trump, I still don't see it reflecting positively on him through polling.
If he does everything in his power, he doesn't need positive polling.
On July 03 2024 05:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for.
So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support.
Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. You don't get it. Ordering the military is unambiguously an official act. So Biden/Trump if he wins, can order them to do whatever he wants( Trump has already floated dragging Congress and others into military tribunals), and then start having them shot for treason if they refuse. If he doesn't want to lose control to a military coup though, he can't disregard and strongarm the military willy nilly. He's gotta finesse the situation some for sure. I understand what you're trying to argue, but you really and truly are not understanding the magnitude of this SCOTUS decision. I says Biden could have Trump and SCOTUS assassinated when the decision came through, I know. But I thought we established that Biden wasn't going to do that, and what he could do instead. And you offered that he could push through democratic legislation, which he can't. Because the President does not write laws. At best he can do some Executive Orders that will inevitably get challenged so if you go that route your better off waiting for closer to the actual election. You misunderstood the conversation as well then. I was talking about what Biden could do while you and Kwark are trying to figure out what he is or might be willing to do that could work and coming up empty handed.
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On July 03 2024 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 04:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:13 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
Id also rather we didnt, and Im pretty certain Democrats wont under even the threat of Republican-led-Democracy-Removal, which is why Im reaaally concerned with what their plans are because I'd rather not see what Republicans are trying to set the stage for.
So like, surely Democrats must either have something in mind, or are coming up with something, surely? There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support.
Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have? It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens. He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. + Show Spoiler +I agree that replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, but I worry that the Supreme Court would correctly make that call if Biden tried it, but then deceptively say it's acceptable if Trump tried it. Biden = Personal = No; Trump = Official = Yes. Clearly, the Supreme Court would be more than open to creating double standards where Biden is held to normal (or even unfairly harsh) levels of accountability, whereas they might also let Trump slide on the same (or even worse) actions.
I feel like the Supreme Court could/would have committed that unfair double standard even before the recent "official vs. personal" formal ruling, but I think this ruling highlights the conservative Justices' perspective that they're eager to do it, if given the opportunity, and interested in absolving Trump in every way possible.
Also, unfortunately, even if Biden does everything in his power to save democracy from the Supreme Court and from Donald Trump, I still don't see it reflecting positively on him through polling. If he does everything in his power, he doesn't need positive polling. Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 05:05 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have?
It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens.
He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. You don't get it. Ordering the military is unambiguously an official act. So Biden/Trump if he wins, can order them to do whatever he wants( Trump has already floated dragging Congress and others into military tribunals), and then start having them shot for treason if they refuse. If he doesn't want to lose control to a military coup though, he can't disregard and strongarm the military willy nilly. He's gotta finesse the situation some for sure. I understand what you're trying to argue, but you really and truly are not understanding the magnitude of this SCOTUS decision. I says Biden could have Trump and SCOTUS assassinated when the decision came through, I know. But I thought we established that Biden wasn't going to do that, and what he could do instead. And you offered that he could push through democratic legislation, which he can't. Because the President does not write laws. At best he can do some Executive Orders that will inevitably get challenged so if you go that route your better off waiting for closer to the actual election. You misunderstood the conversation as well then. I was talking about what Biden could do while you and Kwark are trying to figure out what he is or might be willing to do that could work and coming up empty handed. On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2024 22:47 Zambrah wrote:On July 02 2024 17:44 Simberto wrote:On July 02 2024 16:46 Severedevil wrote:
[quote]
They don't have to win forever. They have to win long enough to reshape the court. Clarence Thomas is 76. Alito is 74. Roberts is 69. Replace two and the court is sane again. Even replacing just one makes the court 5-4, allowing the least evil Republican to flip or soften a ruling. (IIRC Roberts used to do this frequently when the court was 5-4, and plenty of today's 6-3 rulings have a concurring "yes, but" where one of the justices wanted a less aggressive ruling.)
It's not infeasible to hold the presidency until 1-2 aging scumbags dies or retires. It's a shitty position, but it's winnable.
There's also the possibility of winning big once, and then expanding the court. Democratic politicians usually clutch their pearls at that sort of scandalous norm-breaking, but that may shift in the face of insane court rulings. The life expectance of a 76 year old man is about 10 years. I would assume that surpreme court justices get the best of the best healthcare treatments. To flip the court to sane, you would need two of those three to die. Mathing this out is hard, but it is not unlikely that this will take a dozen years. Meaning the democrats would have to not lose the presidency in the next three elections (doesn't sound likely), and the US will become increasingly more shitty until that point. This sounds like a bad solution. This is more or less where I land atm, if Trump loses this next election and becomes just completely and absolutely too old to win another election then with Democrats having such a barren talent pool I dont see them doing any better than our previous pattern of switching between Republican presidents and Democrat presidents, which means we'll just most probably be fucked. I'd really like to know if the Democrats actually have anything special to do about this because a party who is focused on incremental change over a long period of time with a fixation on norms that prevents them from exercising power in the way their opponents do feels like one of the worst sorts of parties to have when fighting a rising tide of fascism What's particularly interesting is that Democrats have all the power they need to do anything they want right now and they are refusing to exercise it while demanding people vote for them anyway. Biden has to exploit this ruling to do something massively popular or he's done for. Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Your exact answer.
So your answer is to do something he doesn't have the power to do. (the SCOTUS changed nothing of that)
If your answer to what he should do is to kill scotus then say that. You didn't.
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On July 03 2024 05:27 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have?
It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens.
He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. + Show Spoiler +I agree that replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, but I worry that the Supreme Court would correctly make that call if Biden tried it, but then deceptively say it's acceptable if Trump tried it. Biden = Personal = No; Trump = Official = Yes. Clearly, the Supreme Court would be more than open to creating double standards where Biden is held to normal (or even unfairly harsh) levels of accountability, whereas they might also let Trump slide on the same (or even worse) actions.
I feel like the Supreme Court could/would have committed that unfair double standard even before the recent "official vs. personal" formal ruling, but I think this ruling highlights the conservative Justices' perspective that they're eager to do it, if given the opportunity, and interested in absolving Trump in every way possible.
Also, unfortunately, even if Biden does everything in his power to save democracy from the Supreme Court and from Donald Trump, I still don't see it reflecting positively on him through polling. If he does everything in his power, he doesn't need positive polling. On July 03 2024 05:05 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass.
[quote]
Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. You don't get it. Ordering the military is unambiguously an official act. So Biden/Trump if he wins, can order them to do whatever he wants( Trump has already floated dragging Congress and others into military tribunals), and then start having them shot for treason if they refuse. If he doesn't want to lose control to a military coup though, he can't disregard and strongarm the military willy nilly. He's gotta finesse the situation some for sure. I understand what you're trying to argue, but you really and truly are not understanding the magnitude of this SCOTUS decision. I says Biden could have Trump and SCOTUS assassinated when the decision came through, I know. But I thought we established that Biden wasn't going to do that, and what he could do instead. And you offered that he could push through democratic legislation, which he can't. Because the President does not write laws. At best he can do some Executive Orders that will inevitably get challenged so if you go that route your better off waiting for closer to the actual election. You misunderstood the conversation as well then. I was talking about what Biden could do while you and Kwark are trying to figure out what he is or might be willing to do that could work and coming up empty handed. Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2024 22:47 Zambrah wrote:On July 02 2024 17:44 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
The life expectance of a 76 year old man is about 10 years. I would assume that surpreme court justices get the best of the best healthcare treatments.
To flip the court to sane, you would need two of those three to die. Mathing this out is hard, but it is not unlikely that this will take a dozen years. Meaning the democrats would have to not lose the presidency in the next three elections (doesn't sound likely), and the US will become increasingly more shitty until that point.
This sounds like a bad solution. This is more or less where I land atm, if Trump loses this next election and becomes just completely and absolutely too old to win another election then with Democrats having such a barren talent pool I dont see them doing any better than our previous pattern of switching between Republican presidents and Democrat presidents, which means we'll just most probably be fucked. I'd really like to know if the Democrats actually have anything special to do about this because a party who is focused on incremental change over a long period of time with a fixation on norms that prevents them from exercising power in the way their opponents do feels like one of the worst sorts of parties to have when fighting a rising tide of fascism What's particularly interesting is that Democrats have all the power they need to do anything they want right now and they are refusing to exercise it while demanding people vote for them anyway. Biden has to exploit this ruling to do something massively popular or he's done for. Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Your exact answer. So your answer is to do something he doesn't have the power to do. (the SCOTUS changed nothing of that) If your answer to what he should do is to kill scotus then say that. You didn't.
He literally does have the power to do it. You described one way he could, there are others.
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On July 03 2024 05:27 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:On July 03 2024 03:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
There's very little that you can do to protect a democracy from its people once the courts have been captured. Turkey used to have the army that'd step in and stage a pro democratic coup from time to time but even they have been defanged now. So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]Wouldn't that require the House? Which the Democrats do not have?
It would have to be by Executive Order and then you might aswell wait another month or 2 before doing to stop the courts from sticking them down before the actual election happens.
He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass. On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
So democracy is probably just done now in the US? Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. + Show Spoiler +I agree that replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, but I worry that the Supreme Court would correctly make that call if Biden tried it, but then deceptively say it's acceptable if Trump tried it. Biden = Personal = No; Trump = Official = Yes. Clearly, the Supreme Court would be more than open to creating double standards where Biden is held to normal (or even unfairly harsh) levels of accountability, whereas they might also let Trump slide on the same (or even worse) actions.
I feel like the Supreme Court could/would have committed that unfair double standard even before the recent "official vs. personal" formal ruling, but I think this ruling highlights the conservative Justices' perspective that they're eager to do it, if given the opportunity, and interested in absolving Trump in every way possible.
Also, unfortunately, even if Biden does everything in his power to save democracy from the Supreme Court and from Donald Trump, I still don't see it reflecting positively on him through polling. If he does everything in his power, he doesn't need positive polling. On July 03 2024 05:05 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass.
[quote]
Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. You don't get it. Ordering the military is unambiguously an official act. So Biden/Trump if he wins, can order them to do whatever he wants( Trump has already floated dragging Congress and others into military tribunals), and then start having them shot for treason if they refuse. If he doesn't want to lose control to a military coup though, he can't disregard and strongarm the military willy nilly. He's gotta finesse the situation some for sure. I understand what you're trying to argue, but you really and truly are not understanding the magnitude of this SCOTUS decision. I says Biden could have Trump and SCOTUS assassinated when the decision came through, I know. But I thought we established that Biden wasn't going to do that, and what he could do instead. And you offered that he could push through democratic legislation, which he can't. Because the President does not write laws. At best he can do some Executive Orders that will inevitably get challenged so if you go that route your better off waiting for closer to the actual election. You misunderstood the conversation as well then. I was talking about what Biden could do while you and Kwark are trying to figure out what he is or might be willing to do that could work and coming up empty handed. Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2024 22:47 Zambrah wrote:On July 02 2024 17:44 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
The life expectance of a 76 year old man is about 10 years. I would assume that surpreme court justices get the best of the best healthcare treatments.
To flip the court to sane, you would need two of those three to die. Mathing this out is hard, but it is not unlikely that this will take a dozen years. Meaning the democrats would have to not lose the presidency in the next three elections (doesn't sound likely), and the US will become increasingly more shitty until that point.
This sounds like a bad solution. This is more or less where I land atm, if Trump loses this next election and becomes just completely and absolutely too old to win another election then with Democrats having such a barren talent pool I dont see them doing any better than our previous pattern of switching between Republican presidents and Democrat presidents, which means we'll just most probably be fucked. I'd really like to know if the Democrats actually have anything special to do about this because a party who is focused on incremental change over a long period of time with a fixation on norms that prevents them from exercising power in the way their opponents do feels like one of the worst sorts of parties to have when fighting a rising tide of fascism What's particularly interesting is that Democrats have all the power they need to do anything they want right now and they are refusing to exercise it while demanding people vote for them anyway. Biden has to exploit this ruling to do something massively popular or he's done for. Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Your exact answer. So your answer is to do something he doesn't have the power to do. (the SCOTUS changed nothing of that) If your answer to what he should do is to kill scotus then say that. You didn't.
It's a waste of time. GH is never going to tell you exactly what he thinks Biden should do. Part of the charade is pretending like he has all the answers without ever providing any answers because they would be correctly scrutinized for being stupid.
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On July 03 2024 07:45 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 05:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 03:21 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
So democracy is probably just done now in the US? If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 03:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
He's got a lot of new leverage over Congress. He can pass whatever he wants to pass.
[quote]
Yup. Kinda takes the wind out of Biden's main campaign sail. He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official. As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. + Show Spoiler +I agree that replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, but I worry that the Supreme Court would correctly make that call if Biden tried it, but then deceptively say it's acceptable if Trump tried it. Biden = Personal = No; Trump = Official = Yes. Clearly, the Supreme Court would be more than open to creating double standards where Biden is held to normal (or even unfairly harsh) levels of accountability, whereas they might also let Trump slide on the same (or even worse) actions.
I feel like the Supreme Court could/would have committed that unfair double standard even before the recent "official vs. personal" formal ruling, but I think this ruling highlights the conservative Justices' perspective that they're eager to do it, if given the opportunity, and interested in absolving Trump in every way possible.
Also, unfortunately, even if Biden does everything in his power to save democracy from the Supreme Court and from Donald Trump, I still don't see it reflecting positively on him through polling. If he does everything in his power, he doesn't need positive polling. On July 03 2024 05:05 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official.
As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. You don't get it. Ordering the military is unambiguously an official act. So Biden/Trump if he wins, can order them to do whatever he wants( Trump has already floated dragging Congress and others into military tribunals), and then start having them shot for treason if they refuse. If he doesn't want to lose control to a military coup though, he can't disregard and strongarm the military willy nilly. He's gotta finesse the situation some for sure. I understand what you're trying to argue, but you really and truly are not understanding the magnitude of this SCOTUS decision. I says Biden could have Trump and SCOTUS assassinated when the decision came through, I know. But I thought we established that Biden wasn't going to do that, and what he could do instead. And you offered that he could push through democratic legislation, which he can't. Because the President does not write laws. At best he can do some Executive Orders that will inevitably get challenged so if you go that route your better off waiting for closer to the actual election. You misunderstood the conversation as well then. I was talking about what Biden could do while you and Kwark are trying to figure out what he is or might be willing to do that could work and coming up empty handed. On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 02 2024 22:47 Zambrah wrote:
[quote]
This is more or less where I land atm, if Trump loses this next election and becomes just completely and absolutely too old to win another election then with Democrats having such a barren talent pool I dont see them doing any better than our previous pattern of switching between Republican presidents and Democrat presidents, which means we'll just most probably be fucked.
I'd really like to know if the Democrats actually have anything special to do about this because a party who is focused on incremental change over a long period of time with a fixation on norms that prevents them from exercising power in the way their opponents do feels like one of the worst sorts of parties to have when fighting a rising tide of fascism
What's particularly interesting is that Democrats have all the power they need to do anything they want right now and they are refusing to exercise it while demanding people vote for them anyway. Biden has to exploit this ruling to do something massively popular or he's done for. Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Your exact answer. So your answer is to do something he doesn't have the power to do. (the SCOTUS changed nothing of that) If your answer to what he should do is to kill scotus then say that. You didn't. It's a waste of time. GH is never going to tell you exactly what he thinks Biden should do. Part of the charade is pretending like he has all the answers without ever providing any answers because they would be correctly scrutinized for being stupid.
He's basically got the whole panoply of options available to the US military to encourage people to do what the US president wants them to, and if he doesn't use it, Trump will.
It's that simple.
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On July 03 2024 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 07:45 BlackJack wrote:On July 03 2024 05:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 03:35 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
If Biden wins and restores justice to the courts then no. Otherwise kinda. Pretty good incentive to vote Biden tbh. The alternative is to wait for GH to do his revolution but I'm beginning to wonder if that'll ever happen. At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination. The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now. He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP. On July 03 2024 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]He doesn't have any leverage. If your referring to the Courts decision the President doesn't make laws, and their verdict is set up so they can allow/disallow whatever they feel like by declaring it official or non-official.
As for court appointments, you can bet that no conservative is going to resign under a Democrat. They will by near death confined to a bed on life support and still refuse to step aside. I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. + Show Spoiler +I agree that replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, but I worry that the Supreme Court would correctly make that call if Biden tried it, but then deceptively say it's acceptable if Trump tried it. Biden = Personal = No; Trump = Official = Yes. Clearly, the Supreme Court would be more than open to creating double standards where Biden is held to normal (or even unfairly harsh) levels of accountability, whereas they might also let Trump slide on the same (or even worse) actions.
I feel like the Supreme Court could/would have committed that unfair double standard even before the recent "official vs. personal" formal ruling, but I think this ruling highlights the conservative Justices' perspective that they're eager to do it, if given the opportunity, and interested in absolving Trump in every way possible.
Also, unfortunately, even if Biden does everything in his power to save democracy from the Supreme Court and from Donald Trump, I still don't see it reflecting positively on him through polling. If he does everything in his power, he doesn't need positive polling. On July 03 2024 05:05 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination.
The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now.
He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP.
[quote]
I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. You don't get it. Ordering the military is unambiguously an official act. So Biden/Trump if he wins, can order them to do whatever he wants( Trump has already floated dragging Congress and others into military tribunals), and then start having them shot for treason if they refuse. If he doesn't want to lose control to a military coup though, he can't disregard and strongarm the military willy nilly. He's gotta finesse the situation some for sure. I understand what you're trying to argue, but you really and truly are not understanding the magnitude of this SCOTUS decision. I says Biden could have Trump and SCOTUS assassinated when the decision came through, I know. But I thought we established that Biden wasn't going to do that, and what he could do instead. And you offered that he could push through democratic legislation, which he can't. Because the President does not write laws. At best he can do some Executive Orders that will inevitably get challenged so if you go that route your better off waiting for closer to the actual election. You misunderstood the conversation as well then. I was talking about what Biden could do while you and Kwark are trying to figure out what he is or might be willing to do that could work and coming up empty handed. On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
What's particularly interesting is that Democrats have all the power they need to do anything they want right now and they are refusing to exercise it while demanding people vote for them anyway.
Biden has to exploit this ruling to do something massively popular or he's done for. Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Your exact answer. So your answer is to do something he doesn't have the power to do. (the SCOTUS changed nothing of that) If your answer to what he should do is to kill scotus then say that. You didn't. It's a waste of time. GH is never going to tell you exactly what he thinks Biden should do. Part of the charade is pretending like he has all the answers without ever providing any answers because they would be correctly scrutinized for being stupid. He's basically got the whole panoply of options available to the US military to encourage people to do what the US president wants them to, and if he doesn't use it, Trump will. It's that simple.
"Hey Seal Team Six can you take care of these people holding up our progress?"
"No. We're not going to perform any extrajudicial killings and also we're going to let the NYTimes know that you've asked us to do that.
Sounds like a great way to hand Trump the election.
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United States24690 Posts
The seals are required to reject illegal orders, which is probably more of an impediment to Biden than Trump.
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On July 03 2024 08:46 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 07:45 BlackJack wrote:On July 03 2024 05:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]At this point it's starting to look like Biden's going to have to use his new found legal leverage from SCOTUS just to hold on to the nomination.
The idea that Biden can "restore justice to the courts" isn't even a thing. If it was, there's nothing stopping him from doing it now. He's not going to win with promises about doing something if he wins. He's got to do something big now.
He won't though. So you are right that the people who recognize Biden/Democrats incompetence, hubris, etc should join a revolutionary socialist movement/org ASAP.
[quote]
I don't think you understand. Biden can replace the entire Supreme Court before they even get a chance to rule on whether it was official or non-official. He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not) replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down. He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that. You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. + Show Spoiler +I agree that replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, but I worry that the Supreme Court would correctly make that call if Biden tried it, but then deceptively say it's acceptable if Trump tried it. Biden = Personal = No; Trump = Official = Yes. Clearly, the Supreme Court would be more than open to creating double standards where Biden is held to normal (or even unfairly harsh) levels of accountability, whereas they might also let Trump slide on the same (or even worse) actions.
I feel like the Supreme Court could/would have committed that unfair double standard even before the recent "official vs. personal" formal ruling, but I think this ruling highlights the conservative Justices' perspective that they're eager to do it, if given the opportunity, and interested in absolving Trump in every way possible.
Also, unfortunately, even if Biden does everything in his power to save democracy from the Supreme Court and from Donald Trump, I still don't see it reflecting positively on him through polling. If he does everything in his power, he doesn't need positive polling. On July 03 2024 05:05 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not)
replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down.
He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that.
You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. You don't get it. Ordering the military is unambiguously an official act. So Biden/Trump if he wins, can order them to do whatever he wants( Trump has already floated dragging Congress and others into military tribunals), and then start having them shot for treason if they refuse. If he doesn't want to lose control to a military coup though, he can't disregard and strongarm the military willy nilly. He's gotta finesse the situation some for sure. I understand what you're trying to argue, but you really and truly are not understanding the magnitude of this SCOTUS decision. I says Biden could have Trump and SCOTUS assassinated when the decision came through, I know. But I thought we established that Biden wasn't going to do that, and what he could do instead. And you offered that he could push through democratic legislation, which he can't. Because the President does not write laws. At best he can do some Executive Orders that will inevitably get challenged so if you go that route your better off waiting for closer to the actual election. You misunderstood the conversation as well then. I was talking about what Biden could do while you and Kwark are trying to figure out what he is or might be willing to do that could work and coming up empty handed. On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:09 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Or he believes that the foreseeable damage caused by his own anti democratic seizure of power could be worse. You mean "using his legal capacities"? Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Your exact answer. So your answer is to do something he doesn't have the power to do. (the SCOTUS changed nothing of that) If your answer to what he should do is to kill scotus then say that. You didn't. It's a waste of time. GH is never going to tell you exactly what he thinks Biden should do. Part of the charade is pretending like he has all the answers without ever providing any answers because they would be correctly scrutinized for being stupid. He's basically got the whole panoply of options available to the US military to encourage people to do what the US president wants them to, and if he doesn't use it, Trump will. It's that simple. "Hey Seal Team Six can you take care of these people holding up our progress?" "No. We're not going to perform any extrajudicial killings and also we're going to let the NYTimes know that you've asked us to do that. Sounds like a great way to hand Trump the election.
Biden should probably make sure he finds some people that agree with him that Trump is an existential threat to the US/democracy if he's going to pursue that route then.
EDIT: It's what Trump will do to his political opposition if Biden lets him.
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On July 03 2024 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2024 08:46 BlackJack wrote:On July 03 2024 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 07:45 BlackJack wrote:On July 03 2024 05:27 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:27 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]He could also do that last month, its just as legal now as it was then (aka entirely not)
replacing justices is not a Presidential act while they are alive and not stepped down.
He would have to have the military kill them, and I thought we agreed he wasn't going to do that.
You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. + Show Spoiler +I agree that replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, but I worry that the Supreme Court would correctly make that call if Biden tried it, but then deceptively say it's acceptable if Trump tried it. Biden = Personal = No; Trump = Official = Yes. Clearly, the Supreme Court would be more than open to creating double standards where Biden is held to normal (or even unfairly harsh) levels of accountability, whereas they might also let Trump slide on the same (or even worse) actions.
I feel like the Supreme Court could/would have committed that unfair double standard even before the recent "official vs. personal" formal ruling, but I think this ruling highlights the conservative Justices' perspective that they're eager to do it, if given the opportunity, and interested in absolving Trump in every way possible.
Also, unfortunately, even if Biden does everything in his power to save democracy from the Supreme Court and from Donald Trump, I still don't see it reflecting positively on him through polling. If he does everything in his power, he doesn't need positive polling. On July 03 2024 05:05 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 05:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 03 2024 04:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
You're still not grasping what the Supreme Court did to the power of the President. But you're right that he can easily order the military to make sure there are vacancies to fill. The President is immune to prosecution while conducting official acts. Replacing a sitting judge is not an official act, it is not within the power of the President at all. This is also why it doesn't help Trump, other then buy time, because keeping documents after his Presidency ended is not an official Presidential act, neither is organising a different election result. You don't get it. Ordering the military is unambiguously an official act. So Biden/Trump if he wins, can order them to do whatever he wants( Trump has already floated dragging Congress and others into military tribunals), and then start having them shot for treason if they refuse. If he doesn't want to lose control to a military coup though, he can't disregard and strongarm the military willy nilly. He's gotta finesse the situation some for sure. I understand what you're trying to argue, but you really and truly are not understanding the magnitude of this SCOTUS decision. I says Biden could have Trump and SCOTUS assassinated when the decision came through, I know. But I thought we established that Biden wasn't going to do that, and what he could do instead. And you offered that he could push through democratic legislation, which he can't. Because the President does not write laws. At best he can do some Executive Orders that will inevitably get challenged so if you go that route your better off waiting for closer to the actual election. You misunderstood the conversation as well then. I was talking about what Biden could do while you and Kwark are trying to figure out what he is or might be willing to do that could work and coming up empty handed. On July 03 2024 01:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:40 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2024 01:18 KwarK wrote:On July 03 2024 01:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
You mean "using his legal capacities"?
Worse than handing those "legal capacities" over to Trump? Obviously not. Why is it obvious to you that nothing bad would result from ending democracy in the US? It’s not obvious to me. Is it possible you’re overlooking something? First, I'm certainly and obviously not claiming "nothing bad would result from ending democracy". Second, I clarified Biden wouldn't be "ending democracy" but "using his legal capacities within that democracy" Lastly, I said Biden using his legal capacities to do something massively popular would be less worse than handing the same legal capacities/power to Trump to do as he pleases with. You're too intelligent for you to be so blatantly strawmanning without doing it on purpose. What exactly is it that you're proposing Biden do to prevent the people electing Trump without ending democracy? To avoid me inadvertently strawmanning you by assuming your plan please make your plan specific. Implement the most popular policy/policies his team has/can come up with that Republican politicians have prevented, ideally something that also has at least a bare majority of independent/Republican (voters') support. Democrats purportedly have a long list of popular legislation dating back to the Obama admin that would have passed without McConnell blocking it from being voted on that they haven't really tapped since Republicans lost the Senate. Maybe there's some policies there he could implement. Your exact answer. So your answer is to do something he doesn't have the power to do. (the SCOTUS changed nothing of that) If your answer to what he should do is to kill scotus then say that. You didn't. It's a waste of time. GH is never going to tell you exactly what he thinks Biden should do. Part of the charade is pretending like he has all the answers without ever providing any answers because they would be correctly scrutinized for being stupid. He's basically got the whole panoply of options available to the US military to encourage people to do what the US president wants them to, and if he doesn't use it, Trump will. It's that simple. "Hey Seal Team Six can you take care of these people holding up our progress?" "No. We're not going to perform any extrajudicial killings and also we're going to let the NYTimes know that you've asked us to do that. Sounds like a great way to hand Trump the election. Biden should probably make sure he finds some people that agree with him that Trump is an existential threat to the US/democracy if he's going to pursue that route then. EDIT: It's what Trump will do to his political opposition if Biden lets him.
Presumably secret service protection also falls under the umbrella of the executive branch. So pull protection and state you'll issue a pardon, if necessary, to anyone making active use of their second amendment right to protect democracy...
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EPT
