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When it comes to “solving” the trolley problem, GH sounds like the person who refuses to play the game as intended and “cheat” by and picking the third option: “Obviously I’ll save everyone on both tracks by stopping the trolley with my bare hands, because I’m fucking Superman, go me!” And with that, they think their moral high horse is taller than everyone else who picked one of the two options. They think they beat and “won” the game by not playing.
How about instead of the trolley, we have a sinking Titanic with a limited amount of lifeboats, and now you’re practically forced to “play” the game properly? Whatever you choose to do, people are going to die regardless, so who do you choose to save and why? I used to think I was Superman once, and that I was able to lift the Titanic out of the water myself. It’s a noble idea, trying to save everyone. But that was also naive of me, and I was living in fantasy la-la land with an unrealistic solution, aka “no solution.”
If there was a giant space laser satellite that can identify, target, and instantly kill all Hamas militants (and since I’m feeling generous, I’ll throw in Bibi there as well) by reading their minds, without harming any civilians, everyone would probably choose that option. But guess what, that space laser doesn’t exist. Superman doesn’t exist. You need to get your head out of your ass and realize you’re just a normal human being and will have to implement a real world solution that minimizes danger to yourself and your side. What will you choose to do?
Is the war in Gaza like the Titanic situation where people are going to inevitably die due to decades of hatred? Looks like it. To think otherwise is to be unrealistically optimistic and naive, which is nice and all, but we’re not children anymore. Can the IDF root out Hamas militants without harming civilians? Are they even capable of doing that without sustaining casualties of their own? Probably not. It’s probably more like a spectrum, albeit an extreme one end of the spectrum with the way the IDF are conducting things right now.
You want to save everyone, but that’s not possible. Which means you’ll never, ever be satisfied with Biden no matter what he does, given the situation, because it’s an impossible ask. You’re also unwilling to make the hard choices in this conflict where people from both sides are going to die (one side keen to protect their own, the other not giving a damn about their own civilians and “playing dirty”), and this is just one out of many conflicts, and other issues. Know what? I don’t envy Biden’s job at all, and he sure as hell didn’t ask for two wars outside of his control after ending one. He’s going to be criticized regardless of what he does. I wonder how he justifies some of the choices he’s made, in his head. Being the President of the United States sure is tough, especially at that age, huh?
Trump on the other hand? I doubt you’ll see any sort of that kind of self reflection when the only thing on his mind right now is staying out of prison, lol
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On February 07 2024 12:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 10:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2024 09:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 06 2024 12:51 Zambrah wrote:
Ill probably wind up voting for him, he has exceeded my expectations, albeit they were low. In some ways hes far exceeded them, and I like that he at least says things that I like to hear even if my faith in him accomplishing anything truly substantive about those issues is low. My bar for Biden's presidency wasn't super high, but it wasn't super low either. I honestly wasn't sure if he was meeting my expectations for the longest time, until I sat down and dug into what he's actually been accomplishing. After doing that research, I realized he's surpassed my expectations. On February 06 2024 19:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 03:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I just wrote quite a bit about voting *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. Looking for feedback. Agree? Disagree? Thanks! + Show Spoiler +Reasons To Vote For Biden In 2024 (written in February 2024) In my opinion, Joe Biden and Donald Trump are both too old to be president. They are both cognitively declining, and they both regularly misspeak and make gaffes. I would much rather have younger nominees to choose from, but the 2024 primaries have made it clear that we will – again – have a showdown between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Barring a sudden withdrawal or death, one of these two will be elected president in November, and I think there are several good reasons to vote *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. While the “lesser of two evils” argument should be persuasive in practice, sometimes people need more reasons to feel enthusiastic enough to get up and vote for a candidate. The Biden administration has had many accomplishments, but isn’t doing a great job of communicating them; this list is designed to outline some of those accomplishments, and explain why I’m hoping to see Biden and his administration continue their solid work for another four years. 1. The Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act allocated $1.2 trillion towards building and updating major infrastructure projects, such as roads, bridges, public transit, internet/broadband, ports, airports, power grid reliability, and school transportation. Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 221-201; the Senate vote was 69-30). [1] [2] 2. The CHIPs And Science Act authorized $280 billion in scientific research, education, and high-tech manufacturing, such as semiconductor production, quantum computing, biotechnology, and relevant workforce training. Again, Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 243-187; the Senate vote was 64-33). [3] [4] 3. The Inflation Reduction Act capped the monthly cost of insulin (to $35) and other out-of-pocket medical expenses for millions of Americans, especially those on Medicare, lowered other drug prescription prices, and invested $783 billion in clean energy (the largest climate change investment in American history), which includes renewable energy production and development of agricultural, forest, marine, and rural regions. It is worth stating a third time, because of how unprecedented it is in our usually-gridlocked Congress: Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 220-213; the Senate vote was 51-50, with Vice President Kamala Harris breaking the tie). [5] [6] 4. Biden has strong economic numbers, both on an absolute scale and relative to Trump, in terms of unemployment, median wage growth, job creation, and the stock market. Unemployment percentages are lower under Biden (adult unemployment reached a 30+ year record low, and youth/15-24 unemployment also reached a 30+ year record low), median wage growth is higher under Biden (the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), the number of jobs created is higher under Biden (again, the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), and the stock market is stronger under Biden (it has reached the highest numbers ever recorded). [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] 5a. Let’s talk about inflation, the price of gas, and how Biden has actually been incredibly effective at stabilizing them, after covid created supply chain issues (causing massive inflation everywhere). In our country, inflation due to covid has been consistently decreasing from a high of around 9% to nearly 3%, thanks to the aforementioned three acts (laws) – and others – under the Biden administration. It should be noted that Trump’s economic inflation numbers were very good; they were consistent at around the ideal inflation rate of 2% until covid occurred, although Trump didn’t actually do anything in particular to earn that 2% rate that he inherited from the end of the Obama administration, let alone need to recalibrate the rate after a national and global disaster (the way Biden did). As far as gas prices go, they’re almost completely back to pre-pandemic numbers, just like the inflation rate. Before the pandemic, Trump’s national gas price averages were between $2.30 and $2.90 per gallon; under Biden, the average cost of a gallon of gas has decreased from around $4.90 to $3.10. And keep in mind that the trends for both our inflation rate and our average price of gas are still projecting decreases (they aren’t just leveling off or stopping at 3% inflation or $3 per gallon). [12] [13] 5b. And one other thing about Biden effectively dealing with inflation: The effects of covid and the resulting supply chain issues weren’t just felt in the United States; there was massive global inflation. And guess which country handled it the best? “The United States has had the strongest economic recovery, measured by GDP. The U.S. economy has remained strong in 2023, with continued growth amid economic uncertainties. Most notably, this growth comes in the wake of the United States fully regaining all pre-pandemic GDP losses in 2021, as well as surpassing pre-pandemic levels. … As the world emerged from the heights of the COVID-19 pandemic, most advanced economies experienced elevated inflation. U.S. inflation remains above the Federal Reserve’s 2 percent target but is down substantially from its 2022 highs, with annual inflation declining in each of the past 12 months. Compared with advanced European economies, the United States has the lowest harmonized headline inflation rate—a comparable measure of inflation. In fact, compared with every other G7 economy, the United States has not just the lowest headline inflation but also the lowest core inflation—inflation that excludes volatile energy and food prices. Core inflation is the preferred measure of central banks.” [14] 6. Biden continues to find effective ways to reduce and forgive student debt, despite Trump’s Republican-leaning Supreme Court blocking some of it. Biden has been helping millions of Americans by forgiving over $130 billion dollars of loans and interest, allowing more and more graduates to save their money or spend it to help themselves and stimulate the economy. This may not be a long-term solution to the problem of the ever-increasing cost of college – and we do need to seriously explore long-term solutions too – but this at least provides some important and immediate relief for many young adults who would otherwise financially drown. [15] 7a. On the topic of labor, Biden is incredibly pro-union and continues to fight for workers’ rights. He updated the Davis-Bacon standards to prevent federal contractors from paying below-market wages; he raised the contractor minimum wage to $15/hour and made it easier for workers to unionize, collectively bargain, and fight for fair and equitable wages; he signed an executive order in January 2021 (as soon as he took office) that empowered federal workers by reversing Trump’s 2018 executive order that had made it easier to fire workers and harder for them to collectively bargain; he appointed officials at both the U.S. Department of Labor and National Labor Relations Board who actively expand resources for educating workers on their rights; and he was the first president to ever join workers on a picket line. In addition to all of that, Biden created the White House Task Force on Worker Organizing and Empowerment (chaired by Vice President Kamala Harris), which teamed up with the Department of Treasury to study the positive effects of unions on the economy, and released a first-of-its-kind report to promote the long list of benefits associated with unions. [16] [17] 7b. There are many union leaders voicing their appreciation for Biden and disdain for Trump; here are two such examples: Lee Saunders and Shawn Fain. Lee Saunders, the president of AFSCME (the largest trade union of public employees in the United States), said, “President Joe Biden is the most pro-union, pro-worker president of our lifetimes – hands down, no contest. He not only understands the importance of supporting working people, but he is a trade unionist at heart. He believes in the power of collective bargaining. He believes that everyone who wants to exercise their freedom to organize should do so without interference. And he has not been shy about saying so.” Shawn Fain, the president of UAW (United Auto Workers – another large American labor union), said, “Nowhere in history has Donald Trump ever stood for the American worker. He stands against pretty much everything we stand for. … Our contract fight with the Big Three [Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis; Stellantis owns Jeep, Ram, Chrysler, Dodge, etc.], our most successful contract in history, President Biden stood there with us on the picket line, unlike President Trump back in '19, when GM was on strike for 40 days and he was completely not existent and silent on the issue. I can go through a list of things, the difference in the candidates. It's very clear to us who stands with working-class people in this country and who stands against them. … In 2008-2009, the economic recession, Donald Trump blamed the workers for what was wrong with these companies. … You know, versus President Biden, who, in 2023, when a plant was going to close in Belvidere, Illinois, for Stellantis, he stood with those workers. He helped us save a community and helped bring not one plant but two plants back to life, and he stood with our members on the picket line in our fight for economic justice.” [18] [19] 8. While Biden’s weakest area is probably foreign policy – there are plenty of criticisms, and some compliments, for certain decisions his administration has made for the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the Afghanistan exit – he has significantly improved relations with most other countries, and has restored the United States’ image in the eyes of our allies. The rest of the world has viewed the United States extremely positively under Democratic presidents (especially under both Obama and Biden) and extremely negatively under Republican presidents (especially under both George W. Bush and Trump), and re-earning the world’s respect and trust has allowed Biden to be more persuasive and more effective than Trump could ever be. For example, while some people dislike how much assistance Biden has given to Ukraine’s defense, he has managed to avoid sending American troops, he has persuaded other countries to also contribute to Ukraine, and he is successfully helping Ukraine to cripple Russian influence in the region. Trump’s volatility, ego, and love of dictatorships would never permit him to handle any international conflict in a thoughtful, measured, and practical manner, and world leaders relentlessly – and correctly – mock Trump’s ignorance. [20] [21] 9. Biden is pro-choice and pro-LGBTQ+, and he has specific policies in place to reduce discrimination of sex, gender, and sexual orientation, which has earned him the support of the National Organization for Women (NOW) – the largest feminist organization in the country – as well as GLAAD – the world’s largest pro-LGBTQ+ media advocacy organization – and the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) – another major pro-LGBTQ+ organization. The policy list for supporting women is dozens of points long and is outlined on the NOW website (see [22]); it focuses on “five main issue areas: economic security, healthcare, care infrastructure, ending violence against women, and protecting and empowering women globally. Combined, this agenda targets some of the most pressing issues facing women, especially women of color, today in the U.S.” The GLAAD website has documented hundreds of pro-LGBTQ+ examples under the Biden administration, including executive orders, legislative support, speeches, and nominations. Sarah Kate Ellis, the GLAAD president and CEO, said, “President Biden included LGBTQ people in his vision for a more equal, more free, and more compassionate country. In re-upping his call for Congress to pass the Equality Act and protect transgender youth, the President is leading by example to expand freedom so no one is left behind. The call is urgent. LGBTQ Americans’ safety and dignity are under attack in state legislatures across the country, and our protections are at risk from the hostile majority on the U.S. Supreme Court. Every lawmaker and every voter must speak up for LGBTQ people, and secure protections against discrimination, so we all have a greater chance to belong, be safe, and to succeed.” The HRC website adds, “President Biden and Vice President Harris have been steadfast, fearless, and unyielding in their support of LGBTQ+ Americans. This administration has achieved landmark victories for LGBTQ+ Americans in its first term — from protecting our right to marry who we love and challenging discriminatory laws seeking to deny healthcare to transgender youth, to strengthening policies that prevent discrimination in foster care, and affirming the identities of all Americans. What’s at stake in the 2024 presidential election for LGBTQ+ people is our humanity, our right to exist, and our ability to live and raise our families in environments free from discrimination and fear. We’re ready to mobilize millions of Equality Voters to support pro-equality, pro-choice, and pro-democracy candidates like President Biden and Vice President Harris. Let’s win this.” [22] [23] [24] [25] 10. The current Supreme Court is the most conservative and lopsided it has been in decades, thanks to Trump’s three appointed justices. Electing Democratic presidents is the best way to start recalibrating the Supreme Court towards the center with more left-leaning justices, such as Biden’s appointee, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. We already saw the overturning of Roe v. Wade; who knows what other progress could be undone with more Republican presidents appointing more conservative Supreme Court justices. This may also appeal to American voters who consider themselves centrist or moderate or preferring a balance of liberal and conservative leaders, given that the Supreme Court is currently heavily skewed towards favoring Republicans. [26] There is certainly more that President Biden could do – he could find better ways to address systemic racism, voting rights, immigration reform, education, healthcare, and so on – and then I would be even happier with his presidency. Nevertheless, he’s still done an impressive job so far, and Trump’s presidency doesn’t have a list of positives that are even remotely comparable. We don’t even need to consider Trump’s negatives – although we absolutely should: undermining our elections with conspiracy theories, purposely stealing and keeping and sharing classified documents even after he no longer had clearance, handling covid terribly by peddling anti-science and anti-medicine propaganda, perpetuating racism and sexism, being found civilly liable for sexual assault and needing to pay tens of millions of dollars in damages for defaming his victim, facing 91 felonies and soon-to-be found guilty of at least some of those criminal charges, etc. Biden is an easy pick for me, and he should be an easy pick for you too; I just wish he did a better job of explaining why. Sources: [1] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684[2] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: 162 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Investment_and_Jobs_Act [3] CHIPs And Science Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4346[4] CHIPs And Science Act: 87 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act [5] Inflation Reduction Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5376[6] Inflation Reduction Act: 227 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_Reduction_Act [7] Unemployment Data: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/unemployment-rate [8] Median Wage Growth Data: https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker [9] Job Creation Data: https://seidmaninstitute.com/job-growth/year/ [10] Stock Market Data (Dow Jones): https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart [11] Stock Market Data (S&P 500): https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^GSPC/ [12] U.S. Inflation Data: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/ [13] Average U.S. Gas Prices: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epmr_pte_nus_dpg&f=m [14] Global Inflation Comparison: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/7-reasons-the-u-s-economy-is-among-the-strongest-in-the-g7/ [15] Student Loan Forgiveness: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-student-loan-forgiveness-debt-2024/ [16] Pro-Labor Examples: https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/8-ways-the-biden-administration-has-fought-for-working-people-by-strengthening-unions/ [17] Biden-Harris-Treasury Pro-Union Research: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706 [18] AFSCME Union Supporting Biden: https://www.afscme.org/press/releases/2023/saunders-president-joe-biden-is-the-most-pro-union-president-of-our-lifetimes [19] UAW Union Supporting Biden: https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2024/01/27/uaw-president-shawn-fain-fox-news-neil-cavuto-david-pakman/72379756007/ [20] Global Confidence For Biden And Trump: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image-abroad-rebounds-with-transition-from-trump-to-biden/ [21] World Leaders Mocking Trump: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/04/trump-describes-trudeau-as-two-faced-over-nato-hot-mic-video [22] NOW Policy List Supporting Women: https://now.org/the-biden-agenda-for-women/ [23] GLAAD Pro-LGBTQ+ Examples: https://glaad.org/biden-harris/ [24] GLAAD Pro-Biden Statement: https://glaad.org/releases/2023-biden-sotu/ [25] HRC Pro-Biden Statement: https://www.hrc.org/resources/biden-harris-2024-campaign [26] Supreme Court Skewed Conservative: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/05/1109444617/the-supreme-court-conservative My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." I don't blame you for disagreeing with Biden's handling of Israel-Palestine, and I certainly agree with you that it's a problem if people are celebrating the genocide of Palestinians. Given that both presidential candidates would likely continue "aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians", don't you think it's worth looking at other aspects of the Biden presidency and the Trump presidency? Bernie is far from perfect (should have said this and more/better months ago), but this is the least I could expect from someone I would consider voting for.
Speaking to your points generally, none of that even approaches non-reformist reform, so I view it as oppositional to desirable strategies and outcomes (while typically less immediately devastating than Republican preferences). And it seems to be the case that "less immediately devastating than Republican preferences", i.e., the lesser of two evils, isn't convincing enough for you, correct? Even though there doesn't exist a third presidential option, as Gorsameth pointed out, and especially not one with views that approach the kind of reform you're looking for? GH isn't exactly wrong in his belief that continuously voting for the 'lesser evil' isn't exactly pushing Democrats to the left. They have little reason to be better when their competition is a moustache twirling cartoon villain.Its sadly the result of the frankly broken US electoral system that there is no real other option, anything other then voting for the lesser evil that you consider barely better then the literal villain is either directly or indirectly supporting said villain. Definitely true, if the best way to characterize Biden is him being the lesser of two evils compared to Trump. But based on my research, I don't think that's a fair assessment of his overall presidency. He's not just a lesser net-negative; he's a net-positive overall: - Bernie and other progressives mentioned $15/hour wages, and Biden delivers that exact wage to some federal workers. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mentioned the expensive cost of insulin, and Biden caps insulin costs to $35/month for Medicare recipients. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mention our crumbling infrastructure, and Biden helps to get $1.2 trillion for exactly that issue with the Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mention workers' rights, unions, and being pro-labor, and Biden significantly delivers in that space over and over again (see 7a and 7b). That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. And there are so many more examples from my list, which aren't just moderate/barely-left-of-center successes; they're real accomplishments that are more progressive than any other recent president. Why is it progressive when Bernie says it, but not progressive when Biden actually does it? We might not have expected them to come from Biden, but they did. On February 06 2024 14:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 06 2024 09:15 Sermokala wrote:
The key thing to remember is that elections are not won by trying to convince lost causes like GH and other extremists who don't care what you have to say but talking to the people in the middle. Having clear sourced arguments like that is really good and I'll save it for personal use. That's quite flattering  And while I agree with you that GH (and some other potential voters) might not be as easily persuaded for certain reasons, I'm always still interested in hearing their rationalizations. On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 03:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I just wrote quite a bit about voting *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. Looking for feedback. Agree? Disagree? Thanks! + Show Spoiler +Reasons To Vote For Biden In 2024 (written in February 2024) In my opinion, Joe Biden and Donald Trump are both too old to be president. They are both cognitively declining, and they both regularly misspeak and make gaffes. I would much rather have younger nominees to choose from, but the 2024 primaries have made it clear that we will – again – have a showdown between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Barring a sudden withdrawal or death, one of these two will be elected president in November, and I think there are several good reasons to vote *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. While the “lesser of two evils” argument should be persuasive in practice, sometimes people need more reasons to feel enthusiastic enough to get up and vote for a candidate. The Biden administration has had many accomplishments, but isn’t doing a great job of communicating them; this list is designed to outline some of those accomplishments, and explain why I’m hoping to see Biden and his administration continue their solid work for another four years. 1. The Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act allocated $1.2 trillion towards building and updating major infrastructure projects, such as roads, bridges, public transit, internet/broadband, ports, airports, power grid reliability, and school transportation. Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 221-201; the Senate vote was 69-30). [1] [2] 2. The CHIPs And Science Act authorized $280 billion in scientific research, education, and high-tech manufacturing, such as semiconductor production, quantum computing, biotechnology, and relevant workforce training. Again, Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 243-187; the Senate vote was 64-33). [3] [4] 3. The Inflation Reduction Act capped the monthly cost of insulin (to $35) and other out-of-pocket medical expenses for millions of Americans, especially those on Medicare, lowered other drug prescription prices, and invested $783 billion in clean energy (the largest climate change investment in American history), which includes renewable energy production and development of agricultural, forest, marine, and rural regions. It is worth stating a third time, because of how unprecedented it is in our usually-gridlocked Congress: Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 220-213; the Senate vote was 51-50, with Vice President Kamala Harris breaking the tie). [5] [6] 4. Biden has strong economic numbers, both on an absolute scale and relative to Trump, in terms of unemployment, median wage growth, job creation, and the stock market. Unemployment percentages are lower under Biden (adult unemployment reached a 30+ year record low, and youth/15-24 unemployment also reached a 30+ year record low), median wage growth is higher under Biden (the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), the number of jobs created is higher under Biden (again, the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), and the stock market is stronger under Biden (it has reached the highest numbers ever recorded). [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] 5a. Let’s talk about inflation, the price of gas, and how Biden has actually been incredibly effective at stabilizing them, after covid created supply chain issues (causing massive inflation everywhere). In our country, inflation due to covid has been consistently decreasing from a high of around 9% to nearly 3%, thanks to the aforementioned three acts (laws) – and others – under the Biden administration. It should be noted that Trump’s economic inflation numbers were very good; they were consistent at around the ideal inflation rate of 2% until covid occurred, although Trump didn’t actually do anything in particular to earn that 2% rate that he inherited from the end of the Obama administration, let alone need to recalibrate the rate after a national and global disaster (the way Biden did). As far as gas prices go, they’re almost completely back to pre-pandemic numbers, just like the inflation rate. Before the pandemic, Trump’s national gas price averages were between $2.30 and $2.90 per gallon; under Biden, the average cost of a gallon of gas has decreased from around $4.90 to $3.10. And keep in mind that the trends for both our inflation rate and our average price of gas are still projecting decreases (they aren’t just leveling off or stopping at 3% inflation or $3 per gallon). [12] [13] 5b. And one other thing about Biden effectively dealing with inflation: The effects of covid and the resulting supply chain issues weren’t just felt in the United States; there was massive global inflation. And guess which country handled it the best? “The United States has had the strongest economic recovery, measured by GDP. The U.S. economy has remained strong in 2023, with continued growth amid economic uncertainties. Most notably, this growth comes in the wake of the United States fully regaining all pre-pandemic GDP losses in 2021, as well as surpassing pre-pandemic levels. … As the world emerged from the heights of the COVID-19 pandemic, most advanced economies experienced elevated inflation. U.S. inflation remains above the Federal Reserve’s 2 percent target but is down substantially from its 2022 highs, with annual inflation declining in each of the past 12 months. Compared with advanced European economies, the United States has the lowest harmonized headline inflation rate—a comparable measure of inflation. In fact, compared with every other G7 economy, the United States has not just the lowest headline inflation but also the lowest core inflation—inflation that excludes volatile energy and food prices. Core inflation is the preferred measure of central banks.” [14] 6. Biden continues to find effective ways to reduce and forgive student debt, despite Trump’s Republican-leaning Supreme Court blocking some of it. Biden has been helping millions of Americans by forgiving over $130 billion dollars of loans and interest, allowing more and more graduates to save their money or spend it to help themselves and stimulate the economy. This may not be a long-term solution to the problem of the ever-increasing cost of college – and we do need to seriously explore long-term solutions too – but this at least provides some important and immediate relief for many young adults who would otherwise financially drown. [15] 7a. On the topic of labor, Biden is incredibly pro-union and continues to fight for workers’ rights. He updated the Davis-Bacon standards to prevent federal contractors from paying below-market wages; he raised the contractor minimum wage to $15/hour and made it easier for workers to unionize, collectively bargain, and fight for fair and equitable wages; he signed an executive order in January 2021 (as soon as he took office) that empowered federal workers by reversing Trump’s 2018 executive order that had made it easier to fire workers and harder for them to collectively bargain; he appointed officials at both the U.S. Department of Labor and National Labor Relations Board who actively expand resources for educating workers on their rights; and he was the first president to ever join workers on a picket line. In addition to all of that, Biden created the White House Task Force on Worker Organizing and Empowerment (chaired by Vice President Kamala Harris), which teamed up with the Department of Treasury to study the positive effects of unions on the economy, and released a first-of-its-kind report to promote the long list of benefits associated with unions. [16] [17] 7b. There are many union leaders voicing their appreciation for Biden and disdain for Trump; here are two such examples: Lee Saunders and Shawn Fain. Lee Saunders, the president of AFSCME (the largest trade union of public employees in the United States), said, “President Joe Biden is the most pro-union, pro-worker president of our lifetimes – hands down, no contest. He not only understands the importance of supporting working people, but he is a trade unionist at heart. He believes in the power of collective bargaining. He believes that everyone who wants to exercise their freedom to organize should do so without interference. And he has not been shy about saying so.” Shawn Fain, the president of UAW (United Auto Workers – another large American labor union), said, “Nowhere in history has Donald Trump ever stood for the American worker. He stands against pretty much everything we stand for. … Our contract fight with the Big Three [Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis; Stellantis owns Jeep, Ram, Chrysler, Dodge, etc.], our most successful contract in history, President Biden stood there with us on the picket line, unlike President Trump back in '19, when GM was on strike for 40 days and he was completely not existent and silent on the issue. I can go through a list of things, the difference in the candidates. It's very clear to us who stands with working-class people in this country and who stands against them. … In 2008-2009, the economic recession, Donald Trump blamed the workers for what was wrong with these companies. … You know, versus President Biden, who, in 2023, when a plant was going to close in Belvidere, Illinois, for Stellantis, he stood with those workers. He helped us save a community and helped bring not one plant but two plants back to life, and he stood with our members on the picket line in our fight for economic justice.” [18] [19] 8. While Biden’s weakest area is probably foreign policy – there are plenty of criticisms, and some compliments, for certain decisions his administration has made for the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the Afghanistan exit – he has significantly improved relations with most other countries, and has restored the United States’ image in the eyes of our allies. The rest of the world has viewed the United States extremely positively under Democratic presidents (especially under both Obama and Biden) and extremely negatively under Republican presidents (especially under both George W. Bush and Trump), and re-earning the world’s respect and trust has allowed Biden to be more persuasive and more effective than Trump could ever be. For example, while some people dislike how much assistance Biden has given to Ukraine’s defense, he has managed to avoid sending American troops, he has persuaded other countries to also contribute to Ukraine, and he is successfully helping Ukraine to cripple Russian influence in the region. Trump’s volatility, ego, and love of dictatorships would never permit him to handle any international conflict in a thoughtful, measured, and practical manner, and world leaders relentlessly – and correctly – mock Trump’s ignorance. [20] [21] 9. Biden is pro-choice and pro-LGBTQ+, and he has specific policies in place to reduce discrimination of sex, gender, and sexual orientation, which has earned him the support of the National Organization for Women (NOW) – the largest feminist organization in the country – as well as GLAAD – the world’s largest pro-LGBTQ+ media advocacy organization – and the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) – another major pro-LGBTQ+ organization. The policy list for supporting women is dozens of points long and is outlined on the NOW website (see [22]); it focuses on “five main issue areas: economic security, healthcare, care infrastructure, ending violence against women, and protecting and empowering women globally. Combined, this agenda targets some of the most pressing issues facing women, especially women of color, today in the U.S.” The GLAAD website has documented hundreds of pro-LGBTQ+ examples under the Biden administration, including executive orders, legislative support, speeches, and nominations. Sarah Kate Ellis, the GLAAD president and CEO, said, “President Biden included LGBTQ people in his vision for a more equal, more free, and more compassionate country. In re-upping his call for Congress to pass the Equality Act and protect transgender youth, the President is leading by example to expand freedom so no one is left behind. The call is urgent. LGBTQ Americans’ safety and dignity are under attack in state legislatures across the country, and our protections are at risk from the hostile majority on the U.S. Supreme Court. Every lawmaker and every voter must speak up for LGBTQ people, and secure protections against discrimination, so we all have a greater chance to belong, be safe, and to succeed.” The HRC website adds, “President Biden and Vice President Harris have been steadfast, fearless, and unyielding in their support of LGBTQ+ Americans. This administration has achieved landmark victories for LGBTQ+ Americans in its first term — from protecting our right to marry who we love and challenging discriminatory laws seeking to deny healthcare to transgender youth, to strengthening policies that prevent discrimination in foster care, and affirming the identities of all Americans. What’s at stake in the 2024 presidential election for LGBTQ+ people is our humanity, our right to exist, and our ability to live and raise our families in environments free from discrimination and fear. We’re ready to mobilize millions of Equality Voters to support pro-equality, pro-choice, and pro-democracy candidates like President Biden and Vice President Harris. Let’s win this.” [22] [23] [24] [25] 10. The current Supreme Court is the most conservative and lopsided it has been in decades, thanks to Trump’s three appointed justices. Electing Democratic presidents is the best way to start recalibrating the Supreme Court towards the center with more left-leaning justices, such as Biden’s appointee, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. We already saw the overturning of Roe v. Wade; who knows what other progress could be undone with more Republican presidents appointing more conservative Supreme Court justices. This may also appeal to American voters who consider themselves centrist or moderate or preferring a balance of liberal and conservative leaders, given that the Supreme Court is currently heavily skewed towards favoring Republicans. [26] There is certainly more that President Biden could do – he could find better ways to address systemic racism, voting rights, immigration reform, education, healthcare, and so on – and then I would be even happier with his presidency. Nevertheless, he’s still done an impressive job so far, and Trump’s presidency doesn’t have a list of positives that are even remotely comparable. We don’t even need to consider Trump’s negatives – although we absolutely should: undermining our elections with conspiracy theories, purposely stealing and keeping and sharing classified documents even after he no longer had clearance, handling covid terribly by peddling anti-science and anti-medicine propaganda, perpetuating racism and sexism, being found civilly liable for sexual assault and needing to pay tens of millions of dollars in damages for defaming his victim, facing 91 felonies and soon-to-be found guilty of at least some of those criminal charges, etc. Biden is an easy pick for me, and he should be an easy pick for you too; I just wish he did a better job of explaining why. Sources: [1] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684[2] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: 162 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Investment_and_Jobs_Act [3] CHIPs And Science Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4346[4] CHIPs And Science Act: 87 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act [5] Inflation Reduction Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5376[6] Inflation Reduction Act: 227 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_Reduction_Act [7] Unemployment Data: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/unemployment-rate [8] Median Wage Growth Data: https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker [9] Job Creation Data: https://seidmaninstitute.com/job-growth/year/ [10] Stock Market Data (Dow Jones): https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart [11] Stock Market Data (S&P 500): https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^GSPC/ [12] U.S. Inflation Data: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/ [13] Average U.S. Gas Prices: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epmr_pte_nus_dpg&f=m [14] Global Inflation Comparison: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/7-reasons-the-u-s-economy-is-among-the-strongest-in-the-g7/ [15] Student Loan Forgiveness: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-student-loan-forgiveness-debt-2024/ [16] Pro-Labor Examples: https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/8-ways-the-biden-administration-has-fought-for-working-people-by-strengthening-unions/ [17] Biden-Harris-Treasury Pro-Union Research: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706 [18] AFSCME Union Supporting Biden: https://www.afscme.org/press/releases/2023/saunders-president-joe-biden-is-the-most-pro-union-president-of-our-lifetimes [19] UAW Union Supporting Biden: https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2024/01/27/uaw-president-shawn-fain-fox-news-neil-cavuto-david-pakman/72379756007/ [20] Global Confidence For Biden And Trump: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image-abroad-rebounds-with-transition-from-trump-to-biden/ [21] World Leaders Mocking Trump: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/04/trump-describes-trudeau-as-two-faced-over-nato-hot-mic-video [22] NOW Policy List Supporting Women: https://now.org/the-biden-agenda-for-women/ [23] GLAAD Pro-LGBTQ+ Examples: https://glaad.org/biden-harris/ [24] GLAAD Pro-Biden Statement: https://glaad.org/releases/2023-biden-sotu/ [25] HRC Pro-Biden Statement: https://www.hrc.org/resources/biden-harris-2024-campaign [26] Supreme Court Skewed Conservative: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/05/1109444617/the-supreme-court-conservative My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." I don't blame you for disagreeing with Biden's handling of Israel-Palestine, and I certainly agree with you that it's a problem if people are celebrating the genocide of Palestinians. Given that both presidential candidates would likely continue "aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians", don't you think it's worth looking at other aspects of the Biden presidency and the Trump presidency? Bernie is far from perfect (should have said this and more/better months ago), but this is the least I could expect from someone I would consider voting for. https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1754232724322156767Speaking to your points generally, none of that even approaches non-reformist reform, so I view it as oppositional to desirable strategies and outcomes (while typically less immediately devastating than Republican preferences). And it seems to be the case that "less immediately devastating than Republican preferences", i.e., the lesser of two evils, isn't convincing enough for you, correct? Even though there doesn't exist a third presidential option, as Gorsameth pointed out, and especially not one with views that approach the kind of reform you're looking for? I think this whole "communication" talking point resonates a lot among media, politicians, party loyalists, professional-managerial class types, and the like, but I don't think it's really capturing the various angles his clear and record breaking unpopularity is coming from.
Electorally it's likely all about Michigan (though Democrats could lose through Wisconsin too) so to the degree there is value in the "communication" line, it's in tailoring those "communication" talking points to that audience. One problem being that unenthusiastic voters to Biden's left and fencesitting "independents" have very different ideas on what that would sound like. Trying to spin them for both would probably fail to sway either.
Without a real primary to pressure Biden to make commitments to his left flank (not talking about socialists, just social dems between Bernie and Biden), it's probably going to be all-in on bending over backwards to appease "independents/never Trump Republicans" at the expense of Democrats most disproportionate and consistent supporters as well as other oppressed/marginalized groups. This is represented by things like Biden's insistence on aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians, Democrats agreeing to Republican's cracking down on the border (apparently for naught), and Cop City (being shepherded in part by Black Democrat politicians).
Considering Biden barely won with much more favorable polling, it may be another Clinton situation where we could attribute a potential Biden loss to a long list of factors where people will emphasize the ones that fit their worldview. For Democrats this typically manifests as petulantly blaming those to their left. I think in practice, I agree with you here, but probably because a lot of people don't like to compromise. In order to appease both the fence-sitting independents and those on the left, Biden would have needed to accomplish things that make both groups happy. I think my list might include some of those things, but it depends on the individual (e.g., you're a counterexample, and that's okay) and it depends how willing to compromise each group is. There is a difference, of course, between the mindset of "Biden did a few things that I wanted, and a few things I didn't want, so I think that's good enough" and "Biden did a few things that I wanted, and a few things I didn't want, and that's not good enough to have earned my vote". It'll be interesting to see how Biden approaches the key swing states you mentioned! I meant rationalizing/insisting on/celebrating voting for a man complicit in an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign, but yeah, celebrating genocide specifically too I guess. Of course Biden's support for an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign isn't all that I'm considering, it's just more than enough to lose my vote on its own. Correct, "lesser evilism" is woefully inadequate and ultimately a rationalization for wilfully supporting "evil" imo. Neglecting Democrats choice not to have a real primary, the notion that we're limited to a choice between two evils ignores a key concept of the "american experiment". The consent of the governed, which is the only real backstop to "lesser evilism" Since Democrats won't even threaten to withdraw their consent despite their leadership materially supporting an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign (or Cop City, border crackdowns, etc), I can't trust that they would withdraw their consent if/when I or other people I care about are the people on the chopping block that they have to sacrifice for political expediency next and/or again (which is basically how I read painfully euphemistic spins like "he could find better ways to address systemic racism"). While I don't personally think that Biden is just the lesser of two evils, I would like to ask a follow-up question about your general view of how being the lesser of two evils is inadequate and not worthy of your vote. Is that always true for you, or is it hypothetically possible to make Trump so evil/negative/regressive (without improving any of Biden's flaws, so Biden would still merely be the lesser of two evils) that the gap between them becomes so huge that you would finally consider voting for Biden / the (sufficiently) lesser of two evils? While I reject the framing of "evil", I don't think you appreciate how problematic it is you and others don't identify aiding and abetting an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign as abhorrent to the point of being disqualifying. It's been a bit since I've mentioned it, but the problem isn't that the gap isn't large enough, it's that Biden and Democrats generally are unacceptable. My general thought was that openly aiding and abetting an ethnic cleansing campaign would finally cross that line for more people, but I've been sorely disappointed. I don't think it would be particularly helpful for me to reiterate what other people wrote earlier about there only being two outcomes (either Biden wins or Trump wins), and that taking the possibly-morally-virtuous road of not supporting either candidate doesn't actually stop one of them from winning the election... Was your second paragraph the answer to my question? I get that you find the Democrats unacceptable, but would there be a hypothetical scenario where the Democratic candidate - while still morally unacceptable to you - is worth voting for, due to the Republican opponent being so, so, so much worse (like in micronesia's example)?
I reject the assertion that those are the only two possible outcomes. Granted they currently have the highest likelihoods, with Trump winning being the most likely. In part, because Democrats (including those that chose not to run in a primary) have insisted on pushing a candidate with worse approval numbers than Trump, as the "only alternative" to him. Which to me is as stubbornly foolish as it sounds.
One problem (that I realize is more salient than I thought) is that unacceptable means unacceptable. "Unacceptable but worth voting for" isn't a thing. Once you're voting for them you've deemed them and their actions acceptable, with some combination of enthusiasm and regret.
Another problem with the question is that because of how the US electoral system works, my vote is functionally meaningless to the outcome. As in the winning presidential candidate in my state (and probably nationally) will be announced before my vote is even counted. So there's no reason for me to vote for Biden. Doesn't matter how bad you make the Republican alternative. Pretty much all voting for Biden would do is make me an unneeded voluntary accomplice to his crimes against humanity.
There is however (among many others) a very compelling reason not to vote for him, his complicity in an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign against an oppressed people. So it's an easy no for me no matter how bad the Republican alternative is.
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On February 07 2024 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 12:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 07 2024 10:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2024 09:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 06 2024 12:51 Zambrah wrote:
Ill probably wind up voting for him, he has exceeded my expectations, albeit they were low. In some ways hes far exceeded them, and I like that he at least says things that I like to hear even if my faith in him accomplishing anything truly substantive about those issues is low. My bar for Biden's presidency wasn't super high, but it wasn't super low either. I honestly wasn't sure if he was meeting my expectations for the longest time, until I sat down and dug into what he's actually been accomplishing. After doing that research, I realized he's surpassed my expectations. On February 06 2024 19:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 03:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I just wrote quite a bit about voting *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. Looking for feedback. Agree? Disagree? Thanks! + Show Spoiler +Reasons To Vote For Biden In 2024 (written in February 2024) In my opinion, Joe Biden and Donald Trump are both too old to be president. They are both cognitively declining, and they both regularly misspeak and make gaffes. I would much rather have younger nominees to choose from, but the 2024 primaries have made it clear that we will – again – have a showdown between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Barring a sudden withdrawal or death, one of these two will be elected president in November, and I think there are several good reasons to vote *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. While the “lesser of two evils” argument should be persuasive in practice, sometimes people need more reasons to feel enthusiastic enough to get up and vote for a candidate. The Biden administration has had many accomplishments, but isn’t doing a great job of communicating them; this list is designed to outline some of those accomplishments, and explain why I’m hoping to see Biden and his administration continue their solid work for another four years. 1. The Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act allocated $1.2 trillion towards building and updating major infrastructure projects, such as roads, bridges, public transit, internet/broadband, ports, airports, power grid reliability, and school transportation. Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 221-201; the Senate vote was 69-30). [1] [2] 2. The CHIPs And Science Act authorized $280 billion in scientific research, education, and high-tech manufacturing, such as semiconductor production, quantum computing, biotechnology, and relevant workforce training. Again, Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 243-187; the Senate vote was 64-33). [3] [4] 3. The Inflation Reduction Act capped the monthly cost of insulin (to $35) and other out-of-pocket medical expenses for millions of Americans, especially those on Medicare, lowered other drug prescription prices, and invested $783 billion in clean energy (the largest climate change investment in American history), which includes renewable energy production and development of agricultural, forest, marine, and rural regions. It is worth stating a third time, because of how unprecedented it is in our usually-gridlocked Congress: Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 220-213; the Senate vote was 51-50, with Vice President Kamala Harris breaking the tie). [5] [6] 4. Biden has strong economic numbers, both on an absolute scale and relative to Trump, in terms of unemployment, median wage growth, job creation, and the stock market. Unemployment percentages are lower under Biden (adult unemployment reached a 30+ year record low, and youth/15-24 unemployment also reached a 30+ year record low), median wage growth is higher under Biden (the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), the number of jobs created is higher under Biden (again, the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), and the stock market is stronger under Biden (it has reached the highest numbers ever recorded). [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] 5a. Let’s talk about inflation, the price of gas, and how Biden has actually been incredibly effective at stabilizing them, after covid created supply chain issues (causing massive inflation everywhere). In our country, inflation due to covid has been consistently decreasing from a high of around 9% to nearly 3%, thanks to the aforementioned three acts (laws) – and others – under the Biden administration. It should be noted that Trump’s economic inflation numbers were very good; they were consistent at around the ideal inflation rate of 2% until covid occurred, although Trump didn’t actually do anything in particular to earn that 2% rate that he inherited from the end of the Obama administration, let alone need to recalibrate the rate after a national and global disaster (the way Biden did). As far as gas prices go, they’re almost completely back to pre-pandemic numbers, just like the inflation rate. Before the pandemic, Trump’s national gas price averages were between $2.30 and $2.90 per gallon; under Biden, the average cost of a gallon of gas has decreased from around $4.90 to $3.10. And keep in mind that the trends for both our inflation rate and our average price of gas are still projecting decreases (they aren’t just leveling off or stopping at 3% inflation or $3 per gallon). [12] [13] 5b. And one other thing about Biden effectively dealing with inflation: The effects of covid and the resulting supply chain issues weren’t just felt in the United States; there was massive global inflation. And guess which country handled it the best? “The United States has had the strongest economic recovery, measured by GDP. The U.S. economy has remained strong in 2023, with continued growth amid economic uncertainties. Most notably, this growth comes in the wake of the United States fully regaining all pre-pandemic GDP losses in 2021, as well as surpassing pre-pandemic levels. … As the world emerged from the heights of the COVID-19 pandemic, most advanced economies experienced elevated inflation. U.S. inflation remains above the Federal Reserve’s 2 percent target but is down substantially from its 2022 highs, with annual inflation declining in each of the past 12 months. Compared with advanced European economies, the United States has the lowest harmonized headline inflation rate—a comparable measure of inflation. In fact, compared with every other G7 economy, the United States has not just the lowest headline inflation but also the lowest core inflation—inflation that excludes volatile energy and food prices. Core inflation is the preferred measure of central banks.” [14] 6. Biden continues to find effective ways to reduce and forgive student debt, despite Trump’s Republican-leaning Supreme Court blocking some of it. Biden has been helping millions of Americans by forgiving over $130 billion dollars of loans and interest, allowing more and more graduates to save their money or spend it to help themselves and stimulate the economy. This may not be a long-term solution to the problem of the ever-increasing cost of college – and we do need to seriously explore long-term solutions too – but this at least provides some important and immediate relief for many young adults who would otherwise financially drown. [15] 7a. On the topic of labor, Biden is incredibly pro-union and continues to fight for workers’ rights. He updated the Davis-Bacon standards to prevent federal contractors from paying below-market wages; he raised the contractor minimum wage to $15/hour and made it easier for workers to unionize, collectively bargain, and fight for fair and equitable wages; he signed an executive order in January 2021 (as soon as he took office) that empowered federal workers by reversing Trump’s 2018 executive order that had made it easier to fire workers and harder for them to collectively bargain; he appointed officials at both the U.S. Department of Labor and National Labor Relations Board who actively expand resources for educating workers on their rights; and he was the first president to ever join workers on a picket line. In addition to all of that, Biden created the White House Task Force on Worker Organizing and Empowerment (chaired by Vice President Kamala Harris), which teamed up with the Department of Treasury to study the positive effects of unions on the economy, and released a first-of-its-kind report to promote the long list of benefits associated with unions. [16] [17] 7b. There are many union leaders voicing their appreciation for Biden and disdain for Trump; here are two such examples: Lee Saunders and Shawn Fain. Lee Saunders, the president of AFSCME (the largest trade union of public employees in the United States), said, “President Joe Biden is the most pro-union, pro-worker president of our lifetimes – hands down, no contest. He not only understands the importance of supporting working people, but he is a trade unionist at heart. He believes in the power of collective bargaining. He believes that everyone who wants to exercise their freedom to organize should do so without interference. And he has not been shy about saying so.” Shawn Fain, the president of UAW (United Auto Workers – another large American labor union), said, “Nowhere in history has Donald Trump ever stood for the American worker. He stands against pretty much everything we stand for. … Our contract fight with the Big Three [Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis; Stellantis owns Jeep, Ram, Chrysler, Dodge, etc.], our most successful contract in history, President Biden stood there with us on the picket line, unlike President Trump back in '19, when GM was on strike for 40 days and he was completely not existent and silent on the issue. I can go through a list of things, the difference in the candidates. It's very clear to us who stands with working-class people in this country and who stands against them. … In 2008-2009, the economic recession, Donald Trump blamed the workers for what was wrong with these companies. … You know, versus President Biden, who, in 2023, when a plant was going to close in Belvidere, Illinois, for Stellantis, he stood with those workers. He helped us save a community and helped bring not one plant but two plants back to life, and he stood with our members on the picket line in our fight for economic justice.” [18] [19] 8. While Biden’s weakest area is probably foreign policy – there are plenty of criticisms, and some compliments, for certain decisions his administration has made for the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the Afghanistan exit – he has significantly improved relations with most other countries, and has restored the United States’ image in the eyes of our allies. The rest of the world has viewed the United States extremely positively under Democratic presidents (especially under both Obama and Biden) and extremely negatively under Republican presidents (especially under both George W. Bush and Trump), and re-earning the world’s respect and trust has allowed Biden to be more persuasive and more effective than Trump could ever be. For example, while some people dislike how much assistance Biden has given to Ukraine’s defense, he has managed to avoid sending American troops, he has persuaded other countries to also contribute to Ukraine, and he is successfully helping Ukraine to cripple Russian influence in the region. Trump’s volatility, ego, and love of dictatorships would never permit him to handle any international conflict in a thoughtful, measured, and practical manner, and world leaders relentlessly – and correctly – mock Trump’s ignorance. [20] [21] 9. Biden is pro-choice and pro-LGBTQ+, and he has specific policies in place to reduce discrimination of sex, gender, and sexual orientation, which has earned him the support of the National Organization for Women (NOW) – the largest feminist organization in the country – as well as GLAAD – the world’s largest pro-LGBTQ+ media advocacy organization – and the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) – another major pro-LGBTQ+ organization. The policy list for supporting women is dozens of points long and is outlined on the NOW website (see [22]); it focuses on “five main issue areas: economic security, healthcare, care infrastructure, ending violence against women, and protecting and empowering women globally. Combined, this agenda targets some of the most pressing issues facing women, especially women of color, today in the U.S.” The GLAAD website has documented hundreds of pro-LGBTQ+ examples under the Biden administration, including executive orders, legislative support, speeches, and nominations. Sarah Kate Ellis, the GLAAD president and CEO, said, “President Biden included LGBTQ people in his vision for a more equal, more free, and more compassionate country. In re-upping his call for Congress to pass the Equality Act and protect transgender youth, the President is leading by example to expand freedom so no one is left behind. The call is urgent. LGBTQ Americans’ safety and dignity are under attack in state legislatures across the country, and our protections are at risk from the hostile majority on the U.S. Supreme Court. Every lawmaker and every voter must speak up for LGBTQ people, and secure protections against discrimination, so we all have a greater chance to belong, be safe, and to succeed.” The HRC website adds, “President Biden and Vice President Harris have been steadfast, fearless, and unyielding in their support of LGBTQ+ Americans. This administration has achieved landmark victories for LGBTQ+ Americans in its first term — from protecting our right to marry who we love and challenging discriminatory laws seeking to deny healthcare to transgender youth, to strengthening policies that prevent discrimination in foster care, and affirming the identities of all Americans. What’s at stake in the 2024 presidential election for LGBTQ+ people is our humanity, our right to exist, and our ability to live and raise our families in environments free from discrimination and fear. We’re ready to mobilize millions of Equality Voters to support pro-equality, pro-choice, and pro-democracy candidates like President Biden and Vice President Harris. Let’s win this.” [22] [23] [24] [25] 10. The current Supreme Court is the most conservative and lopsided it has been in decades, thanks to Trump’s three appointed justices. Electing Democratic presidents is the best way to start recalibrating the Supreme Court towards the center with more left-leaning justices, such as Biden’s appointee, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. We already saw the overturning of Roe v. Wade; who knows what other progress could be undone with more Republican presidents appointing more conservative Supreme Court justices. This may also appeal to American voters who consider themselves centrist or moderate or preferring a balance of liberal and conservative leaders, given that the Supreme Court is currently heavily skewed towards favoring Republicans. [26] There is certainly more that President Biden could do – he could find better ways to address systemic racism, voting rights, immigration reform, education, healthcare, and so on – and then I would be even happier with his presidency. Nevertheless, he’s still done an impressive job so far, and Trump’s presidency doesn’t have a list of positives that are even remotely comparable. We don’t even need to consider Trump’s negatives – although we absolutely should: undermining our elections with conspiracy theories, purposely stealing and keeping and sharing classified documents even after he no longer had clearance, handling covid terribly by peddling anti-science and anti-medicine propaganda, perpetuating racism and sexism, being found civilly liable for sexual assault and needing to pay tens of millions of dollars in damages for defaming his victim, facing 91 felonies and soon-to-be found guilty of at least some of those criminal charges, etc. Biden is an easy pick for me, and he should be an easy pick for you too; I just wish he did a better job of explaining why. Sources: [1] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684[2] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: 162 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Investment_and_Jobs_Act [3] CHIPs And Science Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4346[4] CHIPs And Science Act: 87 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act [5] Inflation Reduction Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5376[6] Inflation Reduction Act: 227 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_Reduction_Act [7] Unemployment Data: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/unemployment-rate [8] Median Wage Growth Data: https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker [9] Job Creation Data: https://seidmaninstitute.com/job-growth/year/ [10] Stock Market Data (Dow Jones): https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart [11] Stock Market Data (S&P 500): https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^GSPC/ [12] U.S. Inflation Data: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/ [13] Average U.S. Gas Prices: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epmr_pte_nus_dpg&f=m [14] Global Inflation Comparison: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/7-reasons-the-u-s-economy-is-among-the-strongest-in-the-g7/ [15] Student Loan Forgiveness: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-student-loan-forgiveness-debt-2024/ [16] Pro-Labor Examples: https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/8-ways-the-biden-administration-has-fought-for-working-people-by-strengthening-unions/ [17] Biden-Harris-Treasury Pro-Union Research: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706 [18] AFSCME Union Supporting Biden: https://www.afscme.org/press/releases/2023/saunders-president-joe-biden-is-the-most-pro-union-president-of-our-lifetimes [19] UAW Union Supporting Biden: https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2024/01/27/uaw-president-shawn-fain-fox-news-neil-cavuto-david-pakman/72379756007/ [20] Global Confidence For Biden And Trump: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image-abroad-rebounds-with-transition-from-trump-to-biden/ [21] World Leaders Mocking Trump: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/04/trump-describes-trudeau-as-two-faced-over-nato-hot-mic-video [22] NOW Policy List Supporting Women: https://now.org/the-biden-agenda-for-women/ [23] GLAAD Pro-LGBTQ+ Examples: https://glaad.org/biden-harris/ [24] GLAAD Pro-Biden Statement: https://glaad.org/releases/2023-biden-sotu/ [25] HRC Pro-Biden Statement: https://www.hrc.org/resources/biden-harris-2024-campaign [26] Supreme Court Skewed Conservative: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/05/1109444617/the-supreme-court-conservative My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." I don't blame you for disagreeing with Biden's handling of Israel-Palestine, and I certainly agree with you that it's a problem if people are celebrating the genocide of Palestinians. Given that both presidential candidates would likely continue "aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians", don't you think it's worth looking at other aspects of the Biden presidency and the Trump presidency? Bernie is far from perfect (should have said this and more/better months ago), but this is the least I could expect from someone I would consider voting for. https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1754232724322156767Speaking to your points generally, none of that even approaches non-reformist reform, so I view it as oppositional to desirable strategies and outcomes (while typically less immediately devastating than Republican preferences). And it seems to be the case that "less immediately devastating than Republican preferences", i.e., the lesser of two evils, isn't convincing enough for you, correct? Even though there doesn't exist a third presidential option, as Gorsameth pointed out, and especially not one with views that approach the kind of reform you're looking for? GH isn't exactly wrong in his belief that continuously voting for the 'lesser evil' isn't exactly pushing Democrats to the left. They have little reason to be better when their competition is a moustache twirling cartoon villain.Its sadly the result of the frankly broken US electoral system that there is no real other option, anything other then voting for the lesser evil that you consider barely better then the literal villain is either directly or indirectly supporting said villain. Definitely true, if the best way to characterize Biden is him being the lesser of two evils compared to Trump. But based on my research, I don't think that's a fair assessment of his overall presidency. He's not just a lesser net-negative; he's a net-positive overall: - Bernie and other progressives mentioned $15/hour wages, and Biden delivers that exact wage to some federal workers. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mentioned the expensive cost of insulin, and Biden caps insulin costs to $35/month for Medicare recipients. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mention our crumbling infrastructure, and Biden helps to get $1.2 trillion for exactly that issue with the Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mention workers' rights, unions, and being pro-labor, and Biden significantly delivers in that space over and over again (see 7a and 7b). That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. And there are so many more examples from my list, which aren't just moderate/barely-left-of-center successes; they're real accomplishments that are more progressive than any other recent president. Why is it progressive when Bernie says it, but not progressive when Biden actually does it? We might not have expected them to come from Biden, but they did. On February 06 2024 14:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 06 2024 09:15 Sermokala wrote:
The key thing to remember is that elections are not won by trying to convince lost causes like GH and other extremists who don't care what you have to say but talking to the people in the middle. Having clear sourced arguments like that is really good and I'll save it for personal use. That's quite flattering And while I agree with you that GH (and some other potential voters) might not be as easily persuaded for certain reasons, I'm always still interested in hearing their rationalizations. On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 03:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I just wrote quite a bit about voting *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. Looking for feedback. Agree? Disagree? Thanks! + Show Spoiler +Reasons To Vote For Biden In 2024 (written in February 2024) In my opinion, Joe Biden and Donald Trump are both too old to be president. They are both cognitively declining, and they both regularly misspeak and make gaffes. I would much rather have younger nominees to choose from, but the 2024 primaries have made it clear that we will – again – have a showdown between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Barring a sudden withdrawal or death, one of these two will be elected president in November, and I think there are several good reasons to vote *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. While the “lesser of two evils” argument should be persuasive in practice, sometimes people need more reasons to feel enthusiastic enough to get up and vote for a candidate. The Biden administration has had many accomplishments, but isn’t doing a great job of communicating them; this list is designed to outline some of those accomplishments, and explain why I’m hoping to see Biden and his administration continue their solid work for another four years. 1. The Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act allocated $1.2 trillion towards building and updating major infrastructure projects, such as roads, bridges, public transit, internet/broadband, ports, airports, power grid reliability, and school transportation. Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 221-201; the Senate vote was 69-30). [1] [2] 2. The CHIPs And Science Act authorized $280 billion in scientific research, education, and high-tech manufacturing, such as semiconductor production, quantum computing, biotechnology, and relevant workforce training. Again, Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 243-187; the Senate vote was 64-33). [3] [4] 3. The Inflation Reduction Act capped the monthly cost of insulin (to $35) and other out-of-pocket medical expenses for millions of Americans, especially those on Medicare, lowered other drug prescription prices, and invested $783 billion in clean energy (the largest climate change investment in American history), which includes renewable energy production and development of agricultural, forest, marine, and rural regions. It is worth stating a third time, because of how unprecedented it is in our usually-gridlocked Congress: Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 220-213; the Senate vote was 51-50, with Vice President Kamala Harris breaking the tie). [5] [6] 4. Biden has strong economic numbers, both on an absolute scale and relative to Trump, in terms of unemployment, median wage growth, job creation, and the stock market. Unemployment percentages are lower under Biden (adult unemployment reached a 30+ year record low, and youth/15-24 unemployment also reached a 30+ year record low), median wage growth is higher under Biden (the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), the number of jobs created is higher under Biden (again, the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), and the stock market is stronger under Biden (it has reached the highest numbers ever recorded). [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] 5a. Let’s talk about inflation, the price of gas, and how Biden has actually been incredibly effective at stabilizing them, after covid created supply chain issues (causing massive inflation everywhere). In our country, inflation due to covid has been consistently decreasing from a high of around 9% to nearly 3%, thanks to the aforementioned three acts (laws) – and others – under the Biden administration. It should be noted that Trump’s economic inflation numbers were very good; they were consistent at around the ideal inflation rate of 2% until covid occurred, although Trump didn’t actually do anything in particular to earn that 2% rate that he inherited from the end of the Obama administration, let alone need to recalibrate the rate after a national and global disaster (the way Biden did). As far as gas prices go, they’re almost completely back to pre-pandemic numbers, just like the inflation rate. Before the pandemic, Trump’s national gas price averages were between $2.30 and $2.90 per gallon; under Biden, the average cost of a gallon of gas has decreased from around $4.90 to $3.10. And keep in mind that the trends for both our inflation rate and our average price of gas are still projecting decreases (they aren’t just leveling off or stopping at 3% inflation or $3 per gallon). [12] [13] 5b. And one other thing about Biden effectively dealing with inflation: The effects of covid and the resulting supply chain issues weren’t just felt in the United States; there was massive global inflation. And guess which country handled it the best? “The United States has had the strongest economic recovery, measured by GDP. The U.S. economy has remained strong in 2023, with continued growth amid economic uncertainties. Most notably, this growth comes in the wake of the United States fully regaining all pre-pandemic GDP losses in 2021, as well as surpassing pre-pandemic levels. … As the world emerged from the heights of the COVID-19 pandemic, most advanced economies experienced elevated inflation. U.S. inflation remains above the Federal Reserve’s 2 percent target but is down substantially from its 2022 highs, with annual inflation declining in each of the past 12 months. Compared with advanced European economies, the United States has the lowest harmonized headline inflation rate—a comparable measure of inflation. In fact, compared with every other G7 economy, the United States has not just the lowest headline inflation but also the lowest core inflation—inflation that excludes volatile energy and food prices. Core inflation is the preferred measure of central banks.” [14] 6. Biden continues to find effective ways to reduce and forgive student debt, despite Trump’s Republican-leaning Supreme Court blocking some of it. Biden has been helping millions of Americans by forgiving over $130 billion dollars of loans and interest, allowing more and more graduates to save their money or spend it to help themselves and stimulate the economy. This may not be a long-term solution to the problem of the ever-increasing cost of college – and we do need to seriously explore long-term solutions too – but this at least provides some important and immediate relief for many young adults who would otherwise financially drown. [15] 7a. On the topic of labor, Biden is incredibly pro-union and continues to fight for workers’ rights. He updated the Davis-Bacon standards to prevent federal contractors from paying below-market wages; he raised the contractor minimum wage to $15/hour and made it easier for workers to unionize, collectively bargain, and fight for fair and equitable wages; he signed an executive order in January 2021 (as soon as he took office) that empowered federal workers by reversing Trump’s 2018 executive order that had made it easier to fire workers and harder for them to collectively bargain; he appointed officials at both the U.S. Department of Labor and National Labor Relations Board who actively expand resources for educating workers on their rights; and he was the first president to ever join workers on a picket line. In addition to all of that, Biden created the White House Task Force on Worker Organizing and Empowerment (chaired by Vice President Kamala Harris), which teamed up with the Department of Treasury to study the positive effects of unions on the economy, and released a first-of-its-kind report to promote the long list of benefits associated with unions. [16] [17] 7b. There are many union leaders voicing their appreciation for Biden and disdain for Trump; here are two such examples: Lee Saunders and Shawn Fain. Lee Saunders, the president of AFSCME (the largest trade union of public employees in the United States), said, “President Joe Biden is the most pro-union, pro-worker president of our lifetimes – hands down, no contest. He not only understands the importance of supporting working people, but he is a trade unionist at heart. He believes in the power of collective bargaining. He believes that everyone who wants to exercise their freedom to organize should do so without interference. And he has not been shy about saying so.” Shawn Fain, the president of UAW (United Auto Workers – another large American labor union), said, “Nowhere in history has Donald Trump ever stood for the American worker. He stands against pretty much everything we stand for. … Our contract fight with the Big Three [Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis; Stellantis owns Jeep, Ram, Chrysler, Dodge, etc.], our most successful contract in history, President Biden stood there with us on the picket line, unlike President Trump back in '19, when GM was on strike for 40 days and he was completely not existent and silent on the issue. I can go through a list of things, the difference in the candidates. It's very clear to us who stands with working-class people in this country and who stands against them. … In 2008-2009, the economic recession, Donald Trump blamed the workers for what was wrong with these companies. … You know, versus President Biden, who, in 2023, when a plant was going to close in Belvidere, Illinois, for Stellantis, he stood with those workers. He helped us save a community and helped bring not one plant but two plants back to life, and he stood with our members on the picket line in our fight for economic justice.” [18] [19] 8. While Biden’s weakest area is probably foreign policy – there are plenty of criticisms, and some compliments, for certain decisions his administration has made for the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the Afghanistan exit – he has significantly improved relations with most other countries, and has restored the United States’ image in the eyes of our allies. The rest of the world has viewed the United States extremely positively under Democratic presidents (especially under both Obama and Biden) and extremely negatively under Republican presidents (especially under both George W. Bush and Trump), and re-earning the world’s respect and trust has allowed Biden to be more persuasive and more effective than Trump could ever be. For example, while some people dislike how much assistance Biden has given to Ukraine’s defense, he has managed to avoid sending American troops, he has persuaded other countries to also contribute to Ukraine, and he is successfully helping Ukraine to cripple Russian influence in the region. Trump’s volatility, ego, and love of dictatorships would never permit him to handle any international conflict in a thoughtful, measured, and practical manner, and world leaders relentlessly – and correctly – mock Trump’s ignorance. [20] [21] 9. Biden is pro-choice and pro-LGBTQ+, and he has specific policies in place to reduce discrimination of sex, gender, and sexual orientation, which has earned him the support of the National Organization for Women (NOW) – the largest feminist organization in the country – as well as GLAAD – the world’s largest pro-LGBTQ+ media advocacy organization – and the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) – another major pro-LGBTQ+ organization. The policy list for supporting women is dozens of points long and is outlined on the NOW website (see [22]); it focuses on “five main issue areas: economic security, healthcare, care infrastructure, ending violence against women, and protecting and empowering women globally. Combined, this agenda targets some of the most pressing issues facing women, especially women of color, today in the U.S.” The GLAAD website has documented hundreds of pro-LGBTQ+ examples under the Biden administration, including executive orders, legislative support, speeches, and nominations. Sarah Kate Ellis, the GLAAD president and CEO, said, “President Biden included LGBTQ people in his vision for a more equal, more free, and more compassionate country. In re-upping his call for Congress to pass the Equality Act and protect transgender youth, the President is leading by example to expand freedom so no one is left behind. The call is urgent. LGBTQ Americans’ safety and dignity are under attack in state legislatures across the country, and our protections are at risk from the hostile majority on the U.S. Supreme Court. Every lawmaker and every voter must speak up for LGBTQ people, and secure protections against discrimination, so we all have a greater chance to belong, be safe, and to succeed.” The HRC website adds, “President Biden and Vice President Harris have been steadfast, fearless, and unyielding in their support of LGBTQ+ Americans. This administration has achieved landmark victories for LGBTQ+ Americans in its first term — from protecting our right to marry who we love and challenging discriminatory laws seeking to deny healthcare to transgender youth, to strengthening policies that prevent discrimination in foster care, and affirming the identities of all Americans. What’s at stake in the 2024 presidential election for LGBTQ+ people is our humanity, our right to exist, and our ability to live and raise our families in environments free from discrimination and fear. We’re ready to mobilize millions of Equality Voters to support pro-equality, pro-choice, and pro-democracy candidates like President Biden and Vice President Harris. Let’s win this.” [22] [23] [24] [25] 10. The current Supreme Court is the most conservative and lopsided it has been in decades, thanks to Trump’s three appointed justices. Electing Democratic presidents is the best way to start recalibrating the Supreme Court towards the center with more left-leaning justices, such as Biden’s appointee, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. We already saw the overturning of Roe v. Wade; who knows what other progress could be undone with more Republican presidents appointing more conservative Supreme Court justices. This may also appeal to American voters who consider themselves centrist or moderate or preferring a balance of liberal and conservative leaders, given that the Supreme Court is currently heavily skewed towards favoring Republicans. [26] There is certainly more that President Biden could do – he could find better ways to address systemic racism, voting rights, immigration reform, education, healthcare, and so on – and then I would be even happier with his presidency. Nevertheless, he’s still done an impressive job so far, and Trump’s presidency doesn’t have a list of positives that are even remotely comparable. We don’t even need to consider Trump’s negatives – although we absolutely should: undermining our elections with conspiracy theories, purposely stealing and keeping and sharing classified documents even after he no longer had clearance, handling covid terribly by peddling anti-science and anti-medicine propaganda, perpetuating racism and sexism, being found civilly liable for sexual assault and needing to pay tens of millions of dollars in damages for defaming his victim, facing 91 felonies and soon-to-be found guilty of at least some of those criminal charges, etc. Biden is an easy pick for me, and he should be an easy pick for you too; I just wish he did a better job of explaining why. Sources: [1] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684[2] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: 162 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Investment_and_Jobs_Act [3] CHIPs And Science Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4346[4] CHIPs And Science Act: 87 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act [5] Inflation Reduction Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5376[6] Inflation Reduction Act: 227 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_Reduction_Act [7] Unemployment Data: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/unemployment-rate [8] Median Wage Growth Data: https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker [9] Job Creation Data: https://seidmaninstitute.com/job-growth/year/ [10] Stock Market Data (Dow Jones): https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart [11] Stock Market Data (S&P 500): https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^GSPC/ [12] U.S. Inflation Data: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/ [13] Average U.S. Gas Prices: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epmr_pte_nus_dpg&f=m [14] Global Inflation Comparison: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/7-reasons-the-u-s-economy-is-among-the-strongest-in-the-g7/ [15] Student Loan Forgiveness: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-student-loan-forgiveness-debt-2024/ [16] Pro-Labor Examples: https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/8-ways-the-biden-administration-has-fought-for-working-people-by-strengthening-unions/ [17] Biden-Harris-Treasury Pro-Union Research: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706 [18] AFSCME Union Supporting Biden: https://www.afscme.org/press/releases/2023/saunders-president-joe-biden-is-the-most-pro-union-president-of-our-lifetimes [19] UAW Union Supporting Biden: https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2024/01/27/uaw-president-shawn-fain-fox-news-neil-cavuto-david-pakman/72379756007/ [20] Global Confidence For Biden And Trump: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image-abroad-rebounds-with-transition-from-trump-to-biden/ [21] World Leaders Mocking Trump: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/04/trump-describes-trudeau-as-two-faced-over-nato-hot-mic-video [22] NOW Policy List Supporting Women: https://now.org/the-biden-agenda-for-women/ [23] GLAAD Pro-LGBTQ+ Examples: https://glaad.org/biden-harris/ [24] GLAAD Pro-Biden Statement: https://glaad.org/releases/2023-biden-sotu/ [25] HRC Pro-Biden Statement: https://www.hrc.org/resources/biden-harris-2024-campaign [26] Supreme Court Skewed Conservative: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/05/1109444617/the-supreme-court-conservative My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." I don't blame you for disagreeing with Biden's handling of Israel-Palestine, and I certainly agree with you that it's a problem if people are celebrating the genocide of Palestinians. Given that both presidential candidates would likely continue "aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians", don't you think it's worth looking at other aspects of the Biden presidency and the Trump presidency? Bernie is far from perfect (should have said this and more/better months ago), but this is the least I could expect from someone I would consider voting for. https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1754232724322156767Speaking to your points generally, none of that even approaches non-reformist reform, so I view it as oppositional to desirable strategies and outcomes (while typically less immediately devastating than Republican preferences). And it seems to be the case that "less immediately devastating than Republican preferences", i.e., the lesser of two evils, isn't convincing enough for you, correct? Even though there doesn't exist a third presidential option, as Gorsameth pointed out, and especially not one with views that approach the kind of reform you're looking for? I think this whole "communication" talking point resonates a lot among media, politicians, party loyalists, professional-managerial class types, and the like, but I don't think it's really capturing the various angles his clear and record breaking unpopularity is coming from.
Electorally it's likely all about Michigan (though Democrats could lose through Wisconsin too) so to the degree there is value in the "communication" line, it's in tailoring those "communication" talking points to that audience. One problem being that unenthusiastic voters to Biden's left and fencesitting "independents" have very different ideas on what that would sound like. Trying to spin them for both would probably fail to sway either.
Without a real primary to pressure Biden to make commitments to his left flank (not talking about socialists, just social dems between Bernie and Biden), it's probably going to be all-in on bending over backwards to appease "independents/never Trump Republicans" at the expense of Democrats most disproportionate and consistent supporters as well as other oppressed/marginalized groups. This is represented by things like Biden's insistence on aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians, Democrats agreeing to Republican's cracking down on the border (apparently for naught), and Cop City (being shepherded in part by Black Democrat politicians).
Considering Biden barely won with much more favorable polling, it may be another Clinton situation where we could attribute a potential Biden loss to a long list of factors where people will emphasize the ones that fit their worldview. For Democrats this typically manifests as petulantly blaming those to their left. I think in practice, I agree with you here, but probably because a lot of people don't like to compromise. In order to appease both the fence-sitting independents and those on the left, Biden would have needed to accomplish things that make both groups happy. I think my list might include some of those things, but it depends on the individual (e.g., you're a counterexample, and that's okay) and it depends how willing to compromise each group is. There is a difference, of course, between the mindset of "Biden did a few things that I wanted, and a few things I didn't want, so I think that's good enough" and "Biden did a few things that I wanted, and a few things I didn't want, and that's not good enough to have earned my vote". It'll be interesting to see how Biden approaches the key swing states you mentioned! I meant rationalizing/insisting on/celebrating voting for a man complicit in an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign, but yeah, celebrating genocide specifically too I guess. Of course Biden's support for an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign isn't all that I'm considering, it's just more than enough to lose my vote on its own. Correct, "lesser evilism" is woefully inadequate and ultimately a rationalization for wilfully supporting "evil" imo. Neglecting Democrats choice not to have a real primary, the notion that we're limited to a choice between two evils ignores a key concept of the "american experiment". The consent of the governed, which is the only real backstop to "lesser evilism" Since Democrats won't even threaten to withdraw their consent despite their leadership materially supporting an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign (or Cop City, border crackdowns, etc), I can't trust that they would withdraw their consent if/when I or other people I care about are the people on the chopping block that they have to sacrifice for political expediency next and/or again (which is basically how I read painfully euphemistic spins like "he could find better ways to address systemic racism"). While I don't personally think that Biden is just the lesser of two evils, I would like to ask a follow-up question about your general view of how being the lesser of two evils is inadequate and not worthy of your vote. Is that always true for you, or is it hypothetically possible to make Trump so evil/negative/regressive (without improving any of Biden's flaws, so Biden would still merely be the lesser of two evils) that the gap between them becomes so huge that you would finally consider voting for Biden / the (sufficiently) lesser of two evils? While I reject the framing of "evil", I don't think you appreciate how problematic it is you and others don't identify aiding and abetting an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign as abhorrent to the point of being disqualifying. It's been a bit since I've mentioned it, but the problem isn't that the gap isn't large enough, it's that Biden and Democrats generally are unacceptable. My general thought was that openly aiding and abetting an ethnic cleansing campaign would finally cross that line for more people, but I've been sorely disappointed. I don't think it would be particularly helpful for me to reiterate what other people wrote earlier about there only being two outcomes (either Biden wins or Trump wins), and that taking the possibly-morally-virtuous road of not supporting either candidate doesn't actually stop one of them from winning the election... Was your second paragraph the answer to my question? I get that you find the Democrats unacceptable, but would there be a hypothetical scenario where the Democratic candidate - while still morally unacceptable to you - is worth voting for, due to the Republican opponent being so, so, so much worse (like in micronesia's example)? I reject the assertion that those are the only two possible outcomes. Granted they currently have the highest likelihoods, with Trump winning being the most likely. In part, because Democrats (including those that chose not to run in a primary) have insisted on pushing a candidate with worse approval numbers than Trump, as the "only alternative" to him. Which to me is as stubbornly foolish as it sounds. One problem (that I realize is more salient than I thought) is that unacceptable means unacceptable. "Unacceptable but worth voting for" isn't a thing. Once you're voting for them you've deemed them and their actions acceptable, with some combination of enthusiasm and regret. Another problem with the question is that because of how the US electoral system works, my vote is functionally meaningless to the outcome. As in the winning presidential candidate in my state (and probably nationally) will be announced before my vote is even counted. So there's no reason for me to vote for Biden. Doesn't matter how bad you make the Republican alternative. Pretty much all voting for Biden would do is make me an unneeded voluntary accomplice to his crimes against humanity. There is however (among many others) a very compelling reason not to vote for him, his complicity in an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign against an oppressed people. So it's an easy no for me no matter how bad the Republican alternative is.
All this means is that you're in a privileged enough position to not vote and not have it provide directly negative consequences, though. It isn't actually a path forward.
What do you gain out of loudly proclaiming Biden unacceptable to you? Do you hope others in more contested states ALSO not vote for Biden? Would you consider that progress?
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On February 07 2024 14:46 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2024 12:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 07 2024 10:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2024 09:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 06 2024 12:51 Zambrah wrote:
Ill probably wind up voting for him, he has exceeded my expectations, albeit they were low. In some ways hes far exceeded them, and I like that he at least says things that I like to hear even if my faith in him accomplishing anything truly substantive about those issues is low. My bar for Biden's presidency wasn't super high, but it wasn't super low either. I honestly wasn't sure if he was meeting my expectations for the longest time, until I sat down and dug into what he's actually been accomplishing. After doing that research, I realized he's surpassed my expectations. On February 06 2024 19:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 03:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I just wrote quite a bit about voting *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. Looking for feedback. Agree? Disagree? Thanks! + Show Spoiler +Reasons To Vote For Biden In 2024 (written in February 2024) In my opinion, Joe Biden and Donald Trump are both too old to be president. They are both cognitively declining, and they both regularly misspeak and make gaffes. I would much rather have younger nominees to choose from, but the 2024 primaries have made it clear that we will – again – have a showdown between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Barring a sudden withdrawal or death, one of these two will be elected president in November, and I think there are several good reasons to vote *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. While the “lesser of two evils” argument should be persuasive in practice, sometimes people need more reasons to feel enthusiastic enough to get up and vote for a candidate. The Biden administration has had many accomplishments, but isn’t doing a great job of communicating them; this list is designed to outline some of those accomplishments, and explain why I’m hoping to see Biden and his administration continue their solid work for another four years. 1. The Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act allocated $1.2 trillion towards building and updating major infrastructure projects, such as roads, bridges, public transit, internet/broadband, ports, airports, power grid reliability, and school transportation. Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 221-201; the Senate vote was 69-30). [1] [2] 2. The CHIPs And Science Act authorized $280 billion in scientific research, education, and high-tech manufacturing, such as semiconductor production, quantum computing, biotechnology, and relevant workforce training. Again, Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 243-187; the Senate vote was 64-33). [3] [4] 3. The Inflation Reduction Act capped the monthly cost of insulin (to $35) and other out-of-pocket medical expenses for millions of Americans, especially those on Medicare, lowered other drug prescription prices, and invested $783 billion in clean energy (the largest climate change investment in American history), which includes renewable energy production and development of agricultural, forest, marine, and rural regions. It is worth stating a third time, because of how unprecedented it is in our usually-gridlocked Congress: Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 220-213; the Senate vote was 51-50, with Vice President Kamala Harris breaking the tie). [5] [6] 4. Biden has strong economic numbers, both on an absolute scale and relative to Trump, in terms of unemployment, median wage growth, job creation, and the stock market. Unemployment percentages are lower under Biden (adult unemployment reached a 30+ year record low, and youth/15-24 unemployment also reached a 30+ year record low), median wage growth is higher under Biden (the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), the number of jobs created is higher under Biden (again, the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), and the stock market is stronger under Biden (it has reached the highest numbers ever recorded). [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] 5a. Let’s talk about inflation, the price of gas, and how Biden has actually been incredibly effective at stabilizing them, after covid created supply chain issues (causing massive inflation everywhere). In our country, inflation due to covid has been consistently decreasing from a high of around 9% to nearly 3%, thanks to the aforementioned three acts (laws) – and others – under the Biden administration. It should be noted that Trump’s economic inflation numbers were very good; they were consistent at around the ideal inflation rate of 2% until covid occurred, although Trump didn’t actually do anything in particular to earn that 2% rate that he inherited from the end of the Obama administration, let alone need to recalibrate the rate after a national and global disaster (the way Biden did). As far as gas prices go, they’re almost completely back to pre-pandemic numbers, just like the inflation rate. Before the pandemic, Trump’s national gas price averages were between $2.30 and $2.90 per gallon; under Biden, the average cost of a gallon of gas has decreased from around $4.90 to $3.10. And keep in mind that the trends for both our inflation rate and our average price of gas are still projecting decreases (they aren’t just leveling off or stopping at 3% inflation or $3 per gallon). [12] [13] 5b. And one other thing about Biden effectively dealing with inflation: The effects of covid and the resulting supply chain issues weren’t just felt in the United States; there was massive global inflation. And guess which country handled it the best? “The United States has had the strongest economic recovery, measured by GDP. The U.S. economy has remained strong in 2023, with continued growth amid economic uncertainties. Most notably, this growth comes in the wake of the United States fully regaining all pre-pandemic GDP losses in 2021, as well as surpassing pre-pandemic levels. … As the world emerged from the heights of the COVID-19 pandemic, most advanced economies experienced elevated inflation. U.S. inflation remains above the Federal Reserve’s 2 percent target but is down substantially from its 2022 highs, with annual inflation declining in each of the past 12 months. Compared with advanced European economies, the United States has the lowest harmonized headline inflation rate—a comparable measure of inflation. In fact, compared with every other G7 economy, the United States has not just the lowest headline inflation but also the lowest core inflation—inflation that excludes volatile energy and food prices. Core inflation is the preferred measure of central banks.” [14] 6. Biden continues to find effective ways to reduce and forgive student debt, despite Trump’s Republican-leaning Supreme Court blocking some of it. Biden has been helping millions of Americans by forgiving over $130 billion dollars of loans and interest, allowing more and more graduates to save their money or spend it to help themselves and stimulate the economy. This may not be a long-term solution to the problem of the ever-increasing cost of college – and we do need to seriously explore long-term solutions too – but this at least provides some important and immediate relief for many young adults who would otherwise financially drown. [15] 7a. On the topic of labor, Biden is incredibly pro-union and continues to fight for workers’ rights. He updated the Davis-Bacon standards to prevent federal contractors from paying below-market wages; he raised the contractor minimum wage to $15/hour and made it easier for workers to unionize, collectively bargain, and fight for fair and equitable wages; he signed an executive order in January 2021 (as soon as he took office) that empowered federal workers by reversing Trump’s 2018 executive order that had made it easier to fire workers and harder for them to collectively bargain; he appointed officials at both the U.S. Department of Labor and National Labor Relations Board who actively expand resources for educating workers on their rights; and he was the first president to ever join workers on a picket line. In addition to all of that, Biden created the White House Task Force on Worker Organizing and Empowerment (chaired by Vice President Kamala Harris), which teamed up with the Department of Treasury to study the positive effects of unions on the economy, and released a first-of-its-kind report to promote the long list of benefits associated with unions. [16] [17] 7b. There are many union leaders voicing their appreciation for Biden and disdain for Trump; here are two such examples: Lee Saunders and Shawn Fain. Lee Saunders, the president of AFSCME (the largest trade union of public employees in the United States), said, “President Joe Biden is the most pro-union, pro-worker president of our lifetimes – hands down, no contest. He not only understands the importance of supporting working people, but he is a trade unionist at heart. He believes in the power of collective bargaining. He believes that everyone who wants to exercise their freedom to organize should do so without interference. And he has not been shy about saying so.” Shawn Fain, the president of UAW (United Auto Workers – another large American labor union), said, “Nowhere in history has Donald Trump ever stood for the American worker. He stands against pretty much everything we stand for. … Our contract fight with the Big Three [Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis; Stellantis owns Jeep, Ram, Chrysler, Dodge, etc.], our most successful contract in history, President Biden stood there with us on the picket line, unlike President Trump back in '19, when GM was on strike for 40 days and he was completely not existent and silent on the issue. I can go through a list of things, the difference in the candidates. It's very clear to us who stands with working-class people in this country and who stands against them. … In 2008-2009, the economic recession, Donald Trump blamed the workers for what was wrong with these companies. … You know, versus President Biden, who, in 2023, when a plant was going to close in Belvidere, Illinois, for Stellantis, he stood with those workers. He helped us save a community and helped bring not one plant but two plants back to life, and he stood with our members on the picket line in our fight for economic justice.” [18] [19] 8. While Biden’s weakest area is probably foreign policy – there are plenty of criticisms, and some compliments, for certain decisions his administration has made for the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the Afghanistan exit – he has significantly improved relations with most other countries, and has restored the United States’ image in the eyes of our allies. The rest of the world has viewed the United States extremely positively under Democratic presidents (especially under both Obama and Biden) and extremely negatively under Republican presidents (especially under both George W. Bush and Trump), and re-earning the world’s respect and trust has allowed Biden to be more persuasive and more effective than Trump could ever be. For example, while some people dislike how much assistance Biden has given to Ukraine’s defense, he has managed to avoid sending American troops, he has persuaded other countries to also contribute to Ukraine, and he is successfully helping Ukraine to cripple Russian influence in the region. Trump’s volatility, ego, and love of dictatorships would never permit him to handle any international conflict in a thoughtful, measured, and practical manner, and world leaders relentlessly – and correctly – mock Trump’s ignorance. [20] [21] 9. Biden is pro-choice and pro-LGBTQ+, and he has specific policies in place to reduce discrimination of sex, gender, and sexual orientation, which has earned him the support of the National Organization for Women (NOW) – the largest feminist organization in the country – as well as GLAAD – the world’s largest pro-LGBTQ+ media advocacy organization – and the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) – another major pro-LGBTQ+ organization. The policy list for supporting women is dozens of points long and is outlined on the NOW website (see [22]); it focuses on “five main issue areas: economic security, healthcare, care infrastructure, ending violence against women, and protecting and empowering women globally. Combined, this agenda targets some of the most pressing issues facing women, especially women of color, today in the U.S.” The GLAAD website has documented hundreds of pro-LGBTQ+ examples under the Biden administration, including executive orders, legislative support, speeches, and nominations. Sarah Kate Ellis, the GLAAD president and CEO, said, “President Biden included LGBTQ people in his vision for a more equal, more free, and more compassionate country. In re-upping his call for Congress to pass the Equality Act and protect transgender youth, the President is leading by example to expand freedom so no one is left behind. The call is urgent. LGBTQ Americans’ safety and dignity are under attack in state legislatures across the country, and our protections are at risk from the hostile majority on the U.S. Supreme Court. Every lawmaker and every voter must speak up for LGBTQ people, and secure protections against discrimination, so we all have a greater chance to belong, be safe, and to succeed.” The HRC website adds, “President Biden and Vice President Harris have been steadfast, fearless, and unyielding in their support of LGBTQ+ Americans. This administration has achieved landmark victories for LGBTQ+ Americans in its first term — from protecting our right to marry who we love and challenging discriminatory laws seeking to deny healthcare to transgender youth, to strengthening policies that prevent discrimination in foster care, and affirming the identities of all Americans. What’s at stake in the 2024 presidential election for LGBTQ+ people is our humanity, our right to exist, and our ability to live and raise our families in environments free from discrimination and fear. We’re ready to mobilize millions of Equality Voters to support pro-equality, pro-choice, and pro-democracy candidates like President Biden and Vice President Harris. Let’s win this.” [22] [23] [24] [25] 10. The current Supreme Court is the most conservative and lopsided it has been in decades, thanks to Trump’s three appointed justices. Electing Democratic presidents is the best way to start recalibrating the Supreme Court towards the center with more left-leaning justices, such as Biden’s appointee, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. We already saw the overturning of Roe v. Wade; who knows what other progress could be undone with more Republican presidents appointing more conservative Supreme Court justices. This may also appeal to American voters who consider themselves centrist or moderate or preferring a balance of liberal and conservative leaders, given that the Supreme Court is currently heavily skewed towards favoring Republicans. [26] There is certainly more that President Biden could do – he could find better ways to address systemic racism, voting rights, immigration reform, education, healthcare, and so on – and then I would be even happier with his presidency. Nevertheless, he’s still done an impressive job so far, and Trump’s presidency doesn’t have a list of positives that are even remotely comparable. We don’t even need to consider Trump’s negatives – although we absolutely should: undermining our elections with conspiracy theories, purposely stealing and keeping and sharing classified documents even after he no longer had clearance, handling covid terribly by peddling anti-science and anti-medicine propaganda, perpetuating racism and sexism, being found civilly liable for sexual assault and needing to pay tens of millions of dollars in damages for defaming his victim, facing 91 felonies and soon-to-be found guilty of at least some of those criminal charges, etc. Biden is an easy pick for me, and he should be an easy pick for you too; I just wish he did a better job of explaining why. Sources: [1] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684[2] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: 162 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Investment_and_Jobs_Act [3] CHIPs And Science Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4346[4] CHIPs And Science Act: 87 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act [5] Inflation Reduction Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5376[6] Inflation Reduction Act: 227 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_Reduction_Act [7] Unemployment Data: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/unemployment-rate [8] Median Wage Growth Data: https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker [9] Job Creation Data: https://seidmaninstitute.com/job-growth/year/ [10] Stock Market Data (Dow Jones): https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart [11] Stock Market Data (S&P 500): https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^GSPC/ [12] U.S. Inflation Data: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/ [13] Average U.S. Gas Prices: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epmr_pte_nus_dpg&f=m [14] Global Inflation Comparison: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/7-reasons-the-u-s-economy-is-among-the-strongest-in-the-g7/ [15] Student Loan Forgiveness: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-student-loan-forgiveness-debt-2024/ [16] Pro-Labor Examples: https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/8-ways-the-biden-administration-has-fought-for-working-people-by-strengthening-unions/ [17] Biden-Harris-Treasury Pro-Union Research: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706 [18] AFSCME Union Supporting Biden: https://www.afscme.org/press/releases/2023/saunders-president-joe-biden-is-the-most-pro-union-president-of-our-lifetimes [19] UAW Union Supporting Biden: https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2024/01/27/uaw-president-shawn-fain-fox-news-neil-cavuto-david-pakman/72379756007/ [20] Global Confidence For Biden And Trump: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image-abroad-rebounds-with-transition-from-trump-to-biden/ [21] World Leaders Mocking Trump: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/04/trump-describes-trudeau-as-two-faced-over-nato-hot-mic-video [22] NOW Policy List Supporting Women: https://now.org/the-biden-agenda-for-women/ [23] GLAAD Pro-LGBTQ+ Examples: https://glaad.org/biden-harris/ [24] GLAAD Pro-Biden Statement: https://glaad.org/releases/2023-biden-sotu/ [25] HRC Pro-Biden Statement: https://www.hrc.org/resources/biden-harris-2024-campaign [26] Supreme Court Skewed Conservative: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/05/1109444617/the-supreme-court-conservative My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." I don't blame you for disagreeing with Biden's handling of Israel-Palestine, and I certainly agree with you that it's a problem if people are celebrating the genocide of Palestinians. Given that both presidential candidates would likely continue "aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians", don't you think it's worth looking at other aspects of the Biden presidency and the Trump presidency? Bernie is far from perfect (should have said this and more/better months ago), but this is the least I could expect from someone I would consider voting for. https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1754232724322156767Speaking to your points generally, none of that even approaches non-reformist reform, so I view it as oppositional to desirable strategies and outcomes (while typically less immediately devastating than Republican preferences). And it seems to be the case that "less immediately devastating than Republican preferences", i.e., the lesser of two evils, isn't convincing enough for you, correct? Even though there doesn't exist a third presidential option, as Gorsameth pointed out, and especially not one with views that approach the kind of reform you're looking for? GH isn't exactly wrong in his belief that continuously voting for the 'lesser evil' isn't exactly pushing Democrats to the left. They have little reason to be better when their competition is a moustache twirling cartoon villain.Its sadly the result of the frankly broken US electoral system that there is no real other option, anything other then voting for the lesser evil that you consider barely better then the literal villain is either directly or indirectly supporting said villain. Definitely true, if the best way to characterize Biden is him being the lesser of two evils compared to Trump. But based on my research, I don't think that's a fair assessment of his overall presidency. He's not just a lesser net-negative; he's a net-positive overall: - Bernie and other progressives mentioned $15/hour wages, and Biden delivers that exact wage to some federal workers. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mentioned the expensive cost of insulin, and Biden caps insulin costs to $35/month for Medicare recipients. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mention our crumbling infrastructure, and Biden helps to get $1.2 trillion for exactly that issue with the Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mention workers' rights, unions, and being pro-labor, and Biden significantly delivers in that space over and over again (see 7a and 7b). That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. And there are so many more examples from my list, which aren't just moderate/barely-left-of-center successes; they're real accomplishments that are more progressive than any other recent president. Why is it progressive when Bernie says it, but not progressive when Biden actually does it? We might not have expected them to come from Biden, but they did. On February 06 2024 14:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 06 2024 09:15 Sermokala wrote:
The key thing to remember is that elections are not won by trying to convince lost causes like GH and other extremists who don't care what you have to say but talking to the people in the middle. Having clear sourced arguments like that is really good and I'll save it for personal use. That's quite flattering And while I agree with you that GH (and some other potential voters) might not be as easily persuaded for certain reasons, I'm always still interested in hearing their rationalizations. On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 03:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I just wrote quite a bit about voting *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. Looking for feedback. Agree? Disagree? Thanks! + Show Spoiler +Reasons To Vote For Biden In 2024 (written in February 2024) In my opinion, Joe Biden and Donald Trump are both too old to be president. They are both cognitively declining, and they both regularly misspeak and make gaffes. I would much rather have younger nominees to choose from, but the 2024 primaries have made it clear that we will – again – have a showdown between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Barring a sudden withdrawal or death, one of these two will be elected president in November, and I think there are several good reasons to vote *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. While the “lesser of two evils” argument should be persuasive in practice, sometimes people need more reasons to feel enthusiastic enough to get up and vote for a candidate. The Biden administration has had many accomplishments, but isn’t doing a great job of communicating them; this list is designed to outline some of those accomplishments, and explain why I’m hoping to see Biden and his administration continue their solid work for another four years. 1. The Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act allocated $1.2 trillion towards building and updating major infrastructure projects, such as roads, bridges, public transit, internet/broadband, ports, airports, power grid reliability, and school transportation. Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 221-201; the Senate vote was 69-30). [1] [2] 2. The CHIPs And Science Act authorized $280 billion in scientific research, education, and high-tech manufacturing, such as semiconductor production, quantum computing, biotechnology, and relevant workforce training. Again, Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 243-187; the Senate vote was 64-33). [3] [4] 3. The Inflation Reduction Act capped the monthly cost of insulin (to $35) and other out-of-pocket medical expenses for millions of Americans, especially those on Medicare, lowered other drug prescription prices, and invested $783 billion in clean energy (the largest climate change investment in American history), which includes renewable energy production and development of agricultural, forest, marine, and rural regions. It is worth stating a third time, because of how unprecedented it is in our usually-gridlocked Congress: Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 220-213; the Senate vote was 51-50, with Vice President Kamala Harris breaking the tie). [5] [6] 4. Biden has strong economic numbers, both on an absolute scale and relative to Trump, in terms of unemployment, median wage growth, job creation, and the stock market. Unemployment percentages are lower under Biden (adult unemployment reached a 30+ year record low, and youth/15-24 unemployment also reached a 30+ year record low), median wage growth is higher under Biden (the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), the number of jobs created is higher under Biden (again, the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), and the stock market is stronger under Biden (it has reached the highest numbers ever recorded). [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] 5a. Let’s talk about inflation, the price of gas, and how Biden has actually been incredibly effective at stabilizing them, after covid created supply chain issues (causing massive inflation everywhere). In our country, inflation due to covid has been consistently decreasing from a high of around 9% to nearly 3%, thanks to the aforementioned three acts (laws) – and others – under the Biden administration. It should be noted that Trump’s economic inflation numbers were very good; they were consistent at around the ideal inflation rate of 2% until covid occurred, although Trump didn’t actually do anything in particular to earn that 2% rate that he inherited from the end of the Obama administration, let alone need to recalibrate the rate after a national and global disaster (the way Biden did). As far as gas prices go, they’re almost completely back to pre-pandemic numbers, just like the inflation rate. Before the pandemic, Trump’s national gas price averages were between $2.30 and $2.90 per gallon; under Biden, the average cost of a gallon of gas has decreased from around $4.90 to $3.10. And keep in mind that the trends for both our inflation rate and our average price of gas are still projecting decreases (they aren’t just leveling off or stopping at 3% inflation or $3 per gallon). [12] [13] 5b. And one other thing about Biden effectively dealing with inflation: The effects of covid and the resulting supply chain issues weren’t just felt in the United States; there was massive global inflation. And guess which country handled it the best? “The United States has had the strongest economic recovery, measured by GDP. The U.S. economy has remained strong in 2023, with continued growth amid economic uncertainties. Most notably, this growth comes in the wake of the United States fully regaining all pre-pandemic GDP losses in 2021, as well as surpassing pre-pandemic levels. … As the world emerged from the heights of the COVID-19 pandemic, most advanced economies experienced elevated inflation. U.S. inflation remains above the Federal Reserve’s 2 percent target but is down substantially from its 2022 highs, with annual inflation declining in each of the past 12 months. Compared with advanced European economies, the United States has the lowest harmonized headline inflation rate—a comparable measure of inflation. In fact, compared with every other G7 economy, the United States has not just the lowest headline inflation but also the lowest core inflation—inflation that excludes volatile energy and food prices. Core inflation is the preferred measure of central banks.” [14] 6. Biden continues to find effective ways to reduce and forgive student debt, despite Trump’s Republican-leaning Supreme Court blocking some of it. Biden has been helping millions of Americans by forgiving over $130 billion dollars of loans and interest, allowing more and more graduates to save their money or spend it to help themselves and stimulate the economy. This may not be a long-term solution to the problem of the ever-increasing cost of college – and we do need to seriously explore long-term solutions too – but this at least provides some important and immediate relief for many young adults who would otherwise financially drown. [15] 7a. On the topic of labor, Biden is incredibly pro-union and continues to fight for workers’ rights. He updated the Davis-Bacon standards to prevent federal contractors from paying below-market wages; he raised the contractor minimum wage to $15/hour and made it easier for workers to unionize, collectively bargain, and fight for fair and equitable wages; he signed an executive order in January 2021 (as soon as he took office) that empowered federal workers by reversing Trump’s 2018 executive order that had made it easier to fire workers and harder for them to collectively bargain; he appointed officials at both the U.S. Department of Labor and National Labor Relations Board who actively expand resources for educating workers on their rights; and he was the first president to ever join workers on a picket line. In addition to all of that, Biden created the White House Task Force on Worker Organizing and Empowerment (chaired by Vice President Kamala Harris), which teamed up with the Department of Treasury to study the positive effects of unions on the economy, and released a first-of-its-kind report to promote the long list of benefits associated with unions. [16] [17] 7b. There are many union leaders voicing their appreciation for Biden and disdain for Trump; here are two such examples: Lee Saunders and Shawn Fain. Lee Saunders, the president of AFSCME (the largest trade union of public employees in the United States), said, “President Joe Biden is the most pro-union, pro-worker president of our lifetimes – hands down, no contest. He not only understands the importance of supporting working people, but he is a trade unionist at heart. He believes in the power of collective bargaining. He believes that everyone who wants to exercise their freedom to organize should do so without interference. And he has not been shy about saying so.” Shawn Fain, the president of UAW (United Auto Workers – another large American labor union), said, “Nowhere in history has Donald Trump ever stood for the American worker. He stands against pretty much everything we stand for. … Our contract fight with the Big Three [Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis; Stellantis owns Jeep, Ram, Chrysler, Dodge, etc.], our most successful contract in history, President Biden stood there with us on the picket line, unlike President Trump back in '19, when GM was on strike for 40 days and he was completely not existent and silent on the issue. I can go through a list of things, the difference in the candidates. It's very clear to us who stands with working-class people in this country and who stands against them. … In 2008-2009, the economic recession, Donald Trump blamed the workers for what was wrong with these companies. … You know, versus President Biden, who, in 2023, when a plant was going to close in Belvidere, Illinois, for Stellantis, he stood with those workers. He helped us save a community and helped bring not one plant but two plants back to life, and he stood with our members on the picket line in our fight for economic justice.” [18] [19] 8. While Biden’s weakest area is probably foreign policy – there are plenty of criticisms, and some compliments, for certain decisions his administration has made for the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the Afghanistan exit – he has significantly improved relations with most other countries, and has restored the United States’ image in the eyes of our allies. The rest of the world has viewed the United States extremely positively under Democratic presidents (especially under both Obama and Biden) and extremely negatively under Republican presidents (especially under both George W. Bush and Trump), and re-earning the world’s respect and trust has allowed Biden to be more persuasive and more effective than Trump could ever be. For example, while some people dislike how much assistance Biden has given to Ukraine’s defense, he has managed to avoid sending American troops, he has persuaded other countries to also contribute to Ukraine, and he is successfully helping Ukraine to cripple Russian influence in the region. Trump’s volatility, ego, and love of dictatorships would never permit him to handle any international conflict in a thoughtful, measured, and practical manner, and world leaders relentlessly – and correctly – mock Trump’s ignorance. [20] [21] 9. Biden is pro-choice and pro-LGBTQ+, and he has specific policies in place to reduce discrimination of sex, gender, and sexual orientation, which has earned him the support of the National Organization for Women (NOW) – the largest feminist organization in the country – as well as GLAAD – the world’s largest pro-LGBTQ+ media advocacy organization – and the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) – another major pro-LGBTQ+ organization. The policy list for supporting women is dozens of points long and is outlined on the NOW website (see [22]); it focuses on “five main issue areas: economic security, healthcare, care infrastructure, ending violence against women, and protecting and empowering women globally. Combined, this agenda targets some of the most pressing issues facing women, especially women of color, today in the U.S.” The GLAAD website has documented hundreds of pro-LGBTQ+ examples under the Biden administration, including executive orders, legislative support, speeches, and nominations. Sarah Kate Ellis, the GLAAD president and CEO, said, “President Biden included LGBTQ people in his vision for a more equal, more free, and more compassionate country. In re-upping his call for Congress to pass the Equality Act and protect transgender youth, the President is leading by example to expand freedom so no one is left behind. The call is urgent. LGBTQ Americans’ safety and dignity are under attack in state legislatures across the country, and our protections are at risk from the hostile majority on the U.S. Supreme Court. Every lawmaker and every voter must speak up for LGBTQ people, and secure protections against discrimination, so we all have a greater chance to belong, be safe, and to succeed.” The HRC website adds, “President Biden and Vice President Harris have been steadfast, fearless, and unyielding in their support of LGBTQ+ Americans. This administration has achieved landmark victories for LGBTQ+ Americans in its first term — from protecting our right to marry who we love and challenging discriminatory laws seeking to deny healthcare to transgender youth, to strengthening policies that prevent discrimination in foster care, and affirming the identities of all Americans. What’s at stake in the 2024 presidential election for LGBTQ+ people is our humanity, our right to exist, and our ability to live and raise our families in environments free from discrimination and fear. We’re ready to mobilize millions of Equality Voters to support pro-equality, pro-choice, and pro-democracy candidates like President Biden and Vice President Harris. Let’s win this.” [22] [23] [24] [25] 10. The current Supreme Court is the most conservative and lopsided it has been in decades, thanks to Trump’s three appointed justices. Electing Democratic presidents is the best way to start recalibrating the Supreme Court towards the center with more left-leaning justices, such as Biden’s appointee, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. We already saw the overturning of Roe v. Wade; who knows what other progress could be undone with more Republican presidents appointing more conservative Supreme Court justices. This may also appeal to American voters who consider themselves centrist or moderate or preferring a balance of liberal and conservative leaders, given that the Supreme Court is currently heavily skewed towards favoring Republicans. [26] There is certainly more that President Biden could do – he could find better ways to address systemic racism, voting rights, immigration reform, education, healthcare, and so on – and then I would be even happier with his presidency. Nevertheless, he’s still done an impressive job so far, and Trump’s presidency doesn’t have a list of positives that are even remotely comparable. We don’t even need to consider Trump’s negatives – although we absolutely should: undermining our elections with conspiracy theories, purposely stealing and keeping and sharing classified documents even after he no longer had clearance, handling covid terribly by peddling anti-science and anti-medicine propaganda, perpetuating racism and sexism, being found civilly liable for sexual assault and needing to pay tens of millions of dollars in damages for defaming his victim, facing 91 felonies and soon-to-be found guilty of at least some of those criminal charges, etc. Biden is an easy pick for me, and he should be an easy pick for you too; I just wish he did a better job of explaining why. Sources: [1] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684[2] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: 162 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Investment_and_Jobs_Act [3] CHIPs And Science Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4346[4] CHIPs And Science Act: 87 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act [5] Inflation Reduction Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5376[6] Inflation Reduction Act: 227 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_Reduction_Act [7] Unemployment Data: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/unemployment-rate [8] Median Wage Growth Data: https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker [9] Job Creation Data: https://seidmaninstitute.com/job-growth/year/ [10] Stock Market Data (Dow Jones): https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart [11] Stock Market Data (S&P 500): https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^GSPC/ [12] U.S. Inflation Data: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/ [13] Average U.S. Gas Prices: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epmr_pte_nus_dpg&f=m [14] Global Inflation Comparison: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/7-reasons-the-u-s-economy-is-among-the-strongest-in-the-g7/ [15] Student Loan Forgiveness: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-student-loan-forgiveness-debt-2024/ [16] Pro-Labor Examples: https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/8-ways-the-biden-administration-has-fought-for-working-people-by-strengthening-unions/ [17] Biden-Harris-Treasury Pro-Union Research: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706 [18] AFSCME Union Supporting Biden: https://www.afscme.org/press/releases/2023/saunders-president-joe-biden-is-the-most-pro-union-president-of-our-lifetimes [19] UAW Union Supporting Biden: https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2024/01/27/uaw-president-shawn-fain-fox-news-neil-cavuto-david-pakman/72379756007/ [20] Global Confidence For Biden And Trump: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image-abroad-rebounds-with-transition-from-trump-to-biden/ [21] World Leaders Mocking Trump: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/04/trump-describes-trudeau-as-two-faced-over-nato-hot-mic-video [22] NOW Policy List Supporting Women: https://now.org/the-biden-agenda-for-women/ [23] GLAAD Pro-LGBTQ+ Examples: https://glaad.org/biden-harris/ [24] GLAAD Pro-Biden Statement: https://glaad.org/releases/2023-biden-sotu/ [25] HRC Pro-Biden Statement: https://www.hrc.org/resources/biden-harris-2024-campaign [26] Supreme Court Skewed Conservative: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/05/1109444617/the-supreme-court-conservative My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." I don't blame you for disagreeing with Biden's handling of Israel-Palestine, and I certainly agree with you that it's a problem if people are celebrating the genocide of Palestinians. Given that both presidential candidates would likely continue "aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians", don't you think it's worth looking at other aspects of the Biden presidency and the Trump presidency? Bernie is far from perfect (should have said this and more/better months ago), but this is the least I could expect from someone I would consider voting for. https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1754232724322156767Speaking to your points generally, none of that even approaches non-reformist reform, so I view it as oppositional to desirable strategies and outcomes (while typically less immediately devastating than Republican preferences). And it seems to be the case that "less immediately devastating than Republican preferences", i.e., the lesser of two evils, isn't convincing enough for you, correct? Even though there doesn't exist a third presidential option, as Gorsameth pointed out, and especially not one with views that approach the kind of reform you're looking for? I think this whole "communication" talking point resonates a lot among media, politicians, party loyalists, professional-managerial class types, and the like, but I don't think it's really capturing the various angles his clear and record breaking unpopularity is coming from.
Electorally it's likely all about Michigan (though Democrats could lose through Wisconsin too) so to the degree there is value in the "communication" line, it's in tailoring those "communication" talking points to that audience. One problem being that unenthusiastic voters to Biden's left and fencesitting "independents" have very different ideas on what that would sound like. Trying to spin them for both would probably fail to sway either.
Without a real primary to pressure Biden to make commitments to his left flank (not talking about socialists, just social dems between Bernie and Biden), it's probably going to be all-in on bending over backwards to appease "independents/never Trump Republicans" at the expense of Democrats most disproportionate and consistent supporters as well as other oppressed/marginalized groups. This is represented by things like Biden's insistence on aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians, Democrats agreeing to Republican's cracking down on the border (apparently for naught), and Cop City (being shepherded in part by Black Democrat politicians).
Considering Biden barely won with much more favorable polling, it may be another Clinton situation where we could attribute a potential Biden loss to a long list of factors where people will emphasize the ones that fit their worldview. For Democrats this typically manifests as petulantly blaming those to their left. I think in practice, I agree with you here, but probably because a lot of people don't like to compromise. In order to appease both the fence-sitting independents and those on the left, Biden would have needed to accomplish things that make both groups happy. I think my list might include some of those things, but it depends on the individual (e.g., you're a counterexample, and that's okay) and it depends how willing to compromise each group is. There is a difference, of course, between the mindset of "Biden did a few things that I wanted, and a few things I didn't want, so I think that's good enough" and "Biden did a few things that I wanted, and a few things I didn't want, and that's not good enough to have earned my vote". It'll be interesting to see how Biden approaches the key swing states you mentioned! I meant rationalizing/insisting on/celebrating voting for a man complicit in an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign, but yeah, celebrating genocide specifically too I guess. Of course Biden's support for an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign isn't all that I'm considering, it's just more than enough to lose my vote on its own. Correct, "lesser evilism" is woefully inadequate and ultimately a rationalization for wilfully supporting "evil" imo. Neglecting Democrats choice not to have a real primary, the notion that we're limited to a choice between two evils ignores a key concept of the "american experiment". The consent of the governed, which is the only real backstop to "lesser evilism" Since Democrats won't even threaten to withdraw their consent despite their leadership materially supporting an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign (or Cop City, border crackdowns, etc), I can't trust that they would withdraw their consent if/when I or other people I care about are the people on the chopping block that they have to sacrifice for political expediency next and/or again (which is basically how I read painfully euphemistic spins like "he could find better ways to address systemic racism"). While I don't personally think that Biden is just the lesser of two evils, I would like to ask a follow-up question about your general view of how being the lesser of two evils is inadequate and not worthy of your vote. Is that always true for you, or is it hypothetically possible to make Trump so evil/negative/regressive (without improving any of Biden's flaws, so Biden would still merely be the lesser of two evils) that the gap between them becomes so huge that you would finally consider voting for Biden / the (sufficiently) lesser of two evils? While I reject the framing of "evil", I don't think you appreciate how problematic it is you and others don't identify aiding and abetting an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign as abhorrent to the point of being disqualifying. It's been a bit since I've mentioned it, but the problem isn't that the gap isn't large enough, it's that Biden and Democrats generally are unacceptable. My general thought was that openly aiding and abetting an ethnic cleansing campaign would finally cross that line for more people, but I've been sorely disappointed. I don't think it would be particularly helpful for me to reiterate what other people wrote earlier about there only being two outcomes (either Biden wins or Trump wins), and that taking the possibly-morally-virtuous road of not supporting either candidate doesn't actually stop one of them from winning the election... Was your second paragraph the answer to my question? I get that you find the Democrats unacceptable, but would there be a hypothetical scenario where the Democratic candidate - while still morally unacceptable to you - is worth voting for, due to the Republican opponent being so, so, so much worse (like in micronesia's example)? I reject the assertion that those are the only two possible outcomes. Granted they currently have the highest likelihoods, with Trump winning being the most likely. In part, because Democrats (including those that chose not to run in a primary) have insisted on pushing a candidate with worse approval numbers than Trump, as the "only alternative" to him. Which to me is as stubbornly foolish as it sounds. One problem (that I realize is more salient than I thought) is that unacceptable means unacceptable. "Unacceptable but worth voting for" isn't a thing. Once you're voting for them you've deemed them and their actions acceptable, with some combination of enthusiasm and regret. Another problem with the question is that because of how the US electoral system works, my vote is functionally meaningless to the outcome. As in the winning presidential candidate in my state (and probably nationally) will be announced before my vote is even counted. So there's no reason for me to vote for Biden. Doesn't matter how bad you make the Republican alternative. Pretty much all voting for Biden would do is make me an unneeded voluntary accomplice to his crimes against humanity. There is however (among many others) a very compelling reason not to vote for him, his complicity in an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign against an oppressed people. So it's an easy no for me no matter how bad the Republican alternative is. All this means is that you're in a privileged enough position to not vote and not have it provide directly negative consequences, though. It isn't actually a path forward. What do you gain out of loudly proclaiming Biden unacceptable to you? Do you hope others in more contested states ALSO not vote for Biden? Would you consider that progress?
I don't really consider the idiosyncrasies of US politics that lead to my vote being functionally meaningless me being "privileged", but that does help me contextualize your perspective.
iirc DPB is in a state where Biden won by over 700,000 votes, I think he'll be okay if DPB chooses not to vote for a guy engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign. I'd argue a lot better off than I think DPB would be having to live with voting for him unnecessarily.
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Norway28554 Posts
Doesnt really answer the question of whether being in a swing state would have any consequence for your mindset.
Tbh if the israel palestine question is the most important one then that is one hell of a good reason to consider biden the lesser evil. Cell posting so not bothering with sources but im pretty certain trump's previous period emboldened Israel to be more aggressive.
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On February 07 2024 15:16 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 14:46 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 07 2024 14:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2024 12:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 07 2024 10:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2024 09:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 06 2024 12:51 Zambrah wrote:
Ill probably wind up voting for him, he has exceeded my expectations, albeit they were low. In some ways hes far exceeded them, and I like that he at least says things that I like to hear even if my faith in him accomplishing anything truly substantive about those issues is low. My bar for Biden's presidency wasn't super high, but it wasn't super low either. I honestly wasn't sure if he was meeting my expectations for the longest time, until I sat down and dug into what he's actually been accomplishing. After doing that research, I realized he's surpassed my expectations. On February 06 2024 19:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 03:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I just wrote quite a bit about voting *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. Looking for feedback. Agree? Disagree? Thanks! + Show Spoiler +Reasons To Vote For Biden In 2024 (written in February 2024) In my opinion, Joe Biden and Donald Trump are both too old to be president. They are both cognitively declining, and they both regularly misspeak and make gaffes. I would much rather have younger nominees to choose from, but the 2024 primaries have made it clear that we will – again – have a showdown between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Barring a sudden withdrawal or death, one of these two will be elected president in November, and I think there are several good reasons to vote *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. While the “lesser of two evils” argument should be persuasive in practice, sometimes people need more reasons to feel enthusiastic enough to get up and vote for a candidate. The Biden administration has had many accomplishments, but isn’t doing a great job of communicating them; this list is designed to outline some of those accomplishments, and explain why I’m hoping to see Biden and his administration continue their solid work for another four years. 1. The Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act allocated $1.2 trillion towards building and updating major infrastructure projects, such as roads, bridges, public transit, internet/broadband, ports, airports, power grid reliability, and school transportation. Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 221-201; the Senate vote was 69-30). [1] [2] 2. The CHIPs And Science Act authorized $280 billion in scientific research, education, and high-tech manufacturing, such as semiconductor production, quantum computing, biotechnology, and relevant workforce training. Again, Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 243-187; the Senate vote was 64-33). [3] [4] 3. The Inflation Reduction Act capped the monthly cost of insulin (to $35) and other out-of-pocket medical expenses for millions of Americans, especially those on Medicare, lowered other drug prescription prices, and invested $783 billion in clean energy (the largest climate change investment in American history), which includes renewable energy production and development of agricultural, forest, marine, and rural regions. It is worth stating a third time, because of how unprecedented it is in our usually-gridlocked Congress: Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 220-213; the Senate vote was 51-50, with Vice President Kamala Harris breaking the tie). [5] [6] 4. Biden has strong economic numbers, both on an absolute scale and relative to Trump, in terms of unemployment, median wage growth, job creation, and the stock market. Unemployment percentages are lower under Biden (adult unemployment reached a 30+ year record low, and youth/15-24 unemployment also reached a 30+ year record low), median wage growth is higher under Biden (the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), the number of jobs created is higher under Biden (again, the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), and the stock market is stronger under Biden (it has reached the highest numbers ever recorded). [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] 5a. Let’s talk about inflation, the price of gas, and how Biden has actually been incredibly effective at stabilizing them, after covid created supply chain issues (causing massive inflation everywhere). In our country, inflation due to covid has been consistently decreasing from a high of around 9% to nearly 3%, thanks to the aforementioned three acts (laws) – and others – under the Biden administration. It should be noted that Trump’s economic inflation numbers were very good; they were consistent at around the ideal inflation rate of 2% until covid occurred, although Trump didn’t actually do anything in particular to earn that 2% rate that he inherited from the end of the Obama administration, let alone need to recalibrate the rate after a national and global disaster (the way Biden did). As far as gas prices go, they’re almost completely back to pre-pandemic numbers, just like the inflation rate. Before the pandemic, Trump’s national gas price averages were between $2.30 and $2.90 per gallon; under Biden, the average cost of a gallon of gas has decreased from around $4.90 to $3.10. And keep in mind that the trends for both our inflation rate and our average price of gas are still projecting decreases (they aren’t just leveling off or stopping at 3% inflation or $3 per gallon). [12] [13] 5b. And one other thing about Biden effectively dealing with inflation: The effects of covid and the resulting supply chain issues weren’t just felt in the United States; there was massive global inflation. And guess which country handled it the best? “The United States has had the strongest economic recovery, measured by GDP. The U.S. economy has remained strong in 2023, with continued growth amid economic uncertainties. Most notably, this growth comes in the wake of the United States fully regaining all pre-pandemic GDP losses in 2021, as well as surpassing pre-pandemic levels. … As the world emerged from the heights of the COVID-19 pandemic, most advanced economies experienced elevated inflation. U.S. inflation remains above the Federal Reserve’s 2 percent target but is down substantially from its 2022 highs, with annual inflation declining in each of the past 12 months. Compared with advanced European economies, the United States has the lowest harmonized headline inflation rate—a comparable measure of inflation. In fact, compared with every other G7 economy, the United States has not just the lowest headline inflation but also the lowest core inflation—inflation that excludes volatile energy and food prices. Core inflation is the preferred measure of central banks.” [14] 6. Biden continues to find effective ways to reduce and forgive student debt, despite Trump’s Republican-leaning Supreme Court blocking some of it. Biden has been helping millions of Americans by forgiving over $130 billion dollars of loans and interest, allowing more and more graduates to save their money or spend it to help themselves and stimulate the economy. This may not be a long-term solution to the problem of the ever-increasing cost of college – and we do need to seriously explore long-term solutions too – but this at least provides some important and immediate relief for many young adults who would otherwise financially drown. [15] 7a. On the topic of labor, Biden is incredibly pro-union and continues to fight for workers’ rights. He updated the Davis-Bacon standards to prevent federal contractors from paying below-market wages; he raised the contractor minimum wage to $15/hour and made it easier for workers to unionize, collectively bargain, and fight for fair and equitable wages; he signed an executive order in January 2021 (as soon as he took office) that empowered federal workers by reversing Trump’s 2018 executive order that had made it easier to fire workers and harder for them to collectively bargain; he appointed officials at both the U.S. Department of Labor and National Labor Relations Board who actively expand resources for educating workers on their rights; and he was the first president to ever join workers on a picket line. In addition to all of that, Biden created the White House Task Force on Worker Organizing and Empowerment (chaired by Vice President Kamala Harris), which teamed up with the Department of Treasury to study the positive effects of unions on the economy, and released a first-of-its-kind report to promote the long list of benefits associated with unions. [16] [17] 7b. There are many union leaders voicing their appreciation for Biden and disdain for Trump; here are two such examples: Lee Saunders and Shawn Fain. Lee Saunders, the president of AFSCME (the largest trade union of public employees in the United States), said, “President Joe Biden is the most pro-union, pro-worker president of our lifetimes – hands down, no contest. He not only understands the importance of supporting working people, but he is a trade unionist at heart. He believes in the power of collective bargaining. He believes that everyone who wants to exercise their freedom to organize should do so without interference. And he has not been shy about saying so.” Shawn Fain, the president of UAW (United Auto Workers – another large American labor union), said, “Nowhere in history has Donald Trump ever stood for the American worker. He stands against pretty much everything we stand for. … Our contract fight with the Big Three [Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis; Stellantis owns Jeep, Ram, Chrysler, Dodge, etc.], our most successful contract in history, President Biden stood there with us on the picket line, unlike President Trump back in '19, when GM was on strike for 40 days and he was completely not existent and silent on the issue. I can go through a list of things, the difference in the candidates. It's very clear to us who stands with working-class people in this country and who stands against them. … In 2008-2009, the economic recession, Donald Trump blamed the workers for what was wrong with these companies. … You know, versus President Biden, who, in 2023, when a plant was going to close in Belvidere, Illinois, for Stellantis, he stood with those workers. He helped us save a community and helped bring not one plant but two plants back to life, and he stood with our members on the picket line in our fight for economic justice.” [18] [19] 8. While Biden’s weakest area is probably foreign policy – there are plenty of criticisms, and some compliments, for certain decisions his administration has made for the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the Afghanistan exit – he has significantly improved relations with most other countries, and has restored the United States’ image in the eyes of our allies. The rest of the world has viewed the United States extremely positively under Democratic presidents (especially under both Obama and Biden) and extremely negatively under Republican presidents (especially under both George W. Bush and Trump), and re-earning the world’s respect and trust has allowed Biden to be more persuasive and more effective than Trump could ever be. For example, while some people dislike how much assistance Biden has given to Ukraine’s defense, he has managed to avoid sending American troops, he has persuaded other countries to also contribute to Ukraine, and he is successfully helping Ukraine to cripple Russian influence in the region. Trump’s volatility, ego, and love of dictatorships would never permit him to handle any international conflict in a thoughtful, measured, and practical manner, and world leaders relentlessly – and correctly – mock Trump’s ignorance. [20] [21] 9. Biden is pro-choice and pro-LGBTQ+, and he has specific policies in place to reduce discrimination of sex, gender, and sexual orientation, which has earned him the support of the National Organization for Women (NOW) – the largest feminist organization in the country – as well as GLAAD – the world’s largest pro-LGBTQ+ media advocacy organization – and the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) – another major pro-LGBTQ+ organization. The policy list for supporting women is dozens of points long and is outlined on the NOW website (see [22]); it focuses on “five main issue areas: economic security, healthcare, care infrastructure, ending violence against women, and protecting and empowering women globally. Combined, this agenda targets some of the most pressing issues facing women, especially women of color, today in the U.S.” The GLAAD website has documented hundreds of pro-LGBTQ+ examples under the Biden administration, including executive orders, legislative support, speeches, and nominations. Sarah Kate Ellis, the GLAAD president and CEO, said, “President Biden included LGBTQ people in his vision for a more equal, more free, and more compassionate country. In re-upping his call for Congress to pass the Equality Act and protect transgender youth, the President is leading by example to expand freedom so no one is left behind. The call is urgent. LGBTQ Americans’ safety and dignity are under attack in state legislatures across the country, and our protections are at risk from the hostile majority on the U.S. Supreme Court. Every lawmaker and every voter must speak up for LGBTQ people, and secure protections against discrimination, so we all have a greater chance to belong, be safe, and to succeed.” The HRC website adds, “President Biden and Vice President Harris have been steadfast, fearless, and unyielding in their support of LGBTQ+ Americans. This administration has achieved landmark victories for LGBTQ+ Americans in its first term — from protecting our right to marry who we love and challenging discriminatory laws seeking to deny healthcare to transgender youth, to strengthening policies that prevent discrimination in foster care, and affirming the identities of all Americans. What’s at stake in the 2024 presidential election for LGBTQ+ people is our humanity, our right to exist, and our ability to live and raise our families in environments free from discrimination and fear. We’re ready to mobilize millions of Equality Voters to support pro-equality, pro-choice, and pro-democracy candidates like President Biden and Vice President Harris. Let’s win this.” [22] [23] [24] [25] 10. The current Supreme Court is the most conservative and lopsided it has been in decades, thanks to Trump’s three appointed justices. Electing Democratic presidents is the best way to start recalibrating the Supreme Court towards the center with more left-leaning justices, such as Biden’s appointee, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. We already saw the overturning of Roe v. Wade; who knows what other progress could be undone with more Republican presidents appointing more conservative Supreme Court justices. This may also appeal to American voters who consider themselves centrist or moderate or preferring a balance of liberal and conservative leaders, given that the Supreme Court is currently heavily skewed towards favoring Republicans. [26] There is certainly more that President Biden could do – he could find better ways to address systemic racism, voting rights, immigration reform, education, healthcare, and so on – and then I would be even happier with his presidency. Nevertheless, he’s still done an impressive job so far, and Trump’s presidency doesn’t have a list of positives that are even remotely comparable. We don’t even need to consider Trump’s negatives – although we absolutely should: undermining our elections with conspiracy theories, purposely stealing and keeping and sharing classified documents even after he no longer had clearance, handling covid terribly by peddling anti-science and anti-medicine propaganda, perpetuating racism and sexism, being found civilly liable for sexual assault and needing to pay tens of millions of dollars in damages for defaming his victim, facing 91 felonies and soon-to-be found guilty of at least some of those criminal charges, etc. Biden is an easy pick for me, and he should be an easy pick for you too; I just wish he did a better job of explaining why. Sources: [1] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684[2] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: 162 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Investment_and_Jobs_Act [3] CHIPs And Science Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4346[4] CHIPs And Science Act: 87 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act [5] Inflation Reduction Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5376[6] Inflation Reduction Act: 227 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_Reduction_Act [7] Unemployment Data: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/unemployment-rate [8] Median Wage Growth Data: https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker [9] Job Creation Data: https://seidmaninstitute.com/job-growth/year/ [10] Stock Market Data (Dow Jones): https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart [11] Stock Market Data (S&P 500): https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^GSPC/ [12] U.S. Inflation Data: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/ [13] Average U.S. Gas Prices: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epmr_pte_nus_dpg&f=m [14] Global Inflation Comparison: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/7-reasons-the-u-s-economy-is-among-the-strongest-in-the-g7/ [15] Student Loan Forgiveness: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-student-loan-forgiveness-debt-2024/ [16] Pro-Labor Examples: https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/8-ways-the-biden-administration-has-fought-for-working-people-by-strengthening-unions/ [17] Biden-Harris-Treasury Pro-Union Research: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706 [18] AFSCME Union Supporting Biden: https://www.afscme.org/press/releases/2023/saunders-president-joe-biden-is-the-most-pro-union-president-of-our-lifetimes [19] UAW Union Supporting Biden: https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2024/01/27/uaw-president-shawn-fain-fox-news-neil-cavuto-david-pakman/72379756007/ [20] Global Confidence For Biden And Trump: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image-abroad-rebounds-with-transition-from-trump-to-biden/ [21] World Leaders Mocking Trump: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/04/trump-describes-trudeau-as-two-faced-over-nato-hot-mic-video [22] NOW Policy List Supporting Women: https://now.org/the-biden-agenda-for-women/ [23] GLAAD Pro-LGBTQ+ Examples: https://glaad.org/biden-harris/ [24] GLAAD Pro-Biden Statement: https://glaad.org/releases/2023-biden-sotu/ [25] HRC Pro-Biden Statement: https://www.hrc.org/resources/biden-harris-2024-campaign [26] Supreme Court Skewed Conservative: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/05/1109444617/the-supreme-court-conservative My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." I don't blame you for disagreeing with Biden's handling of Israel-Palestine, and I certainly agree with you that it's a problem if people are celebrating the genocide of Palestinians. Given that both presidential candidates would likely continue "aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians", don't you think it's worth looking at other aspects of the Biden presidency and the Trump presidency? Bernie is far from perfect (should have said this and more/better months ago), but this is the least I could expect from someone I would consider voting for. https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1754232724322156767Speaking to your points generally, none of that even approaches non-reformist reform, so I view it as oppositional to desirable strategies and outcomes (while typically less immediately devastating than Republican preferences). And it seems to be the case that "less immediately devastating than Republican preferences", i.e., the lesser of two evils, isn't convincing enough for you, correct? Even though there doesn't exist a third presidential option, as Gorsameth pointed out, and especially not one with views that approach the kind of reform you're looking for? GH isn't exactly wrong in his belief that continuously voting for the 'lesser evil' isn't exactly pushing Democrats to the left. They have little reason to be better when their competition is a moustache twirling cartoon villain.Its sadly the result of the frankly broken US electoral system that there is no real other option, anything other then voting for the lesser evil that you consider barely better then the literal villain is either directly or indirectly supporting said villain. Definitely true, if the best way to characterize Biden is him being the lesser of two evils compared to Trump. But based on my research, I don't think that's a fair assessment of his overall presidency. He's not just a lesser net-negative; he's a net-positive overall: - Bernie and other progressives mentioned $15/hour wages, and Biden delivers that exact wage to some federal workers. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mentioned the expensive cost of insulin, and Biden caps insulin costs to $35/month for Medicare recipients. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mention our crumbling infrastructure, and Biden helps to get $1.2 trillion for exactly that issue with the Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act. That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. - Bernie and other progressives mention workers' rights, unions, and being pro-labor, and Biden significantly delivers in that space over and over again (see 7a and 7b). That's progress; that's a legitimate step forward, not a small step backwards. And there are so many more examples from my list, which aren't just moderate/barely-left-of-center successes; they're real accomplishments that are more progressive than any other recent president. Why is it progressive when Bernie says it, but not progressive when Biden actually does it? We might not have expected them to come from Biden, but they did. On February 06 2024 14:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 06 2024 09:15 Sermokala wrote:
The key thing to remember is that elections are not won by trying to convince lost causes like GH and other extremists who don't care what you have to say but talking to the people in the middle. Having clear sourced arguments like that is really good and I'll save it for personal use. That's quite flattering And while I agree with you that GH (and some other potential voters) might not be as easily persuaded for certain reasons, I'm always still interested in hearing their rationalizations. On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2024 03:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I just wrote quite a bit about voting *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. Looking for feedback. Agree? Disagree? Thanks! + Show Spoiler +Reasons To Vote For Biden In 2024 (written in February 2024) In my opinion, Joe Biden and Donald Trump are both too old to be president. They are both cognitively declining, and they both regularly misspeak and make gaffes. I would much rather have younger nominees to choose from, but the 2024 primaries have made it clear that we will – again – have a showdown between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Barring a sudden withdrawal or death, one of these two will be elected president in November, and I think there are several good reasons to vote *for* Biden, not just *against* Trump. While the “lesser of two evils” argument should be persuasive in practice, sometimes people need more reasons to feel enthusiastic enough to get up and vote for a candidate. The Biden administration has had many accomplishments, but isn’t doing a great job of communicating them; this list is designed to outline some of those accomplishments, and explain why I’m hoping to see Biden and his administration continue their solid work for another four years. 1. The Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act allocated $1.2 trillion towards building and updating major infrastructure projects, such as roads, bridges, public transit, internet/broadband, ports, airports, power grid reliability, and school transportation. Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 221-201; the Senate vote was 69-30). [1] [2] 2. The CHIPs And Science Act authorized $280 billion in scientific research, education, and high-tech manufacturing, such as semiconductor production, quantum computing, biotechnology, and relevant workforce training. Again, Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 243-187; the Senate vote was 64-33). [3] [4] 3. The Inflation Reduction Act capped the monthly cost of insulin (to $35) and other out-of-pocket medical expenses for millions of Americans, especially those on Medicare, lowered other drug prescription prices, and invested $783 billion in clean energy (the largest climate change investment in American history), which includes renewable energy production and development of agricultural, forest, marine, and rural regions. It is worth stating a third time, because of how unprecedented it is in our usually-gridlocked Congress: Biden and Congressional Democrats miraculously found effective ways to negotiate with some of the usually-veto-everything-that-costs-money-or-comes-from-the-left Congressional Republicans (the House vote was 220-213; the Senate vote was 51-50, with Vice President Kamala Harris breaking the tie). [5] [6] 4. Biden has strong economic numbers, both on an absolute scale and relative to Trump, in terms of unemployment, median wage growth, job creation, and the stock market. Unemployment percentages are lower under Biden (adult unemployment reached a 30+ year record low, and youth/15-24 unemployment also reached a 30+ year record low), median wage growth is higher under Biden (the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), the number of jobs created is higher under Biden (again, the percent growth reached a 20+ year record high), and the stock market is stronger under Biden (it has reached the highest numbers ever recorded). [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] 5a. Let’s talk about inflation, the price of gas, and how Biden has actually been incredibly effective at stabilizing them, after covid created supply chain issues (causing massive inflation everywhere). In our country, inflation due to covid has been consistently decreasing from a high of around 9% to nearly 3%, thanks to the aforementioned three acts (laws) – and others – under the Biden administration. It should be noted that Trump’s economic inflation numbers were very good; they were consistent at around the ideal inflation rate of 2% until covid occurred, although Trump didn’t actually do anything in particular to earn that 2% rate that he inherited from the end of the Obama administration, let alone need to recalibrate the rate after a national and global disaster (the way Biden did). As far as gas prices go, they’re almost completely back to pre-pandemic numbers, just like the inflation rate. Before the pandemic, Trump’s national gas price averages were between $2.30 and $2.90 per gallon; under Biden, the average cost of a gallon of gas has decreased from around $4.90 to $3.10. And keep in mind that the trends for both our inflation rate and our average price of gas are still projecting decreases (they aren’t just leveling off or stopping at 3% inflation or $3 per gallon). [12] [13] 5b. And one other thing about Biden effectively dealing with inflation: The effects of covid and the resulting supply chain issues weren’t just felt in the United States; there was massive global inflation. And guess which country handled it the best? “The United States has had the strongest economic recovery, measured by GDP. The U.S. economy has remained strong in 2023, with continued growth amid economic uncertainties. Most notably, this growth comes in the wake of the United States fully regaining all pre-pandemic GDP losses in 2021, as well as surpassing pre-pandemic levels. … As the world emerged from the heights of the COVID-19 pandemic, most advanced economies experienced elevated inflation. U.S. inflation remains above the Federal Reserve’s 2 percent target but is down substantially from its 2022 highs, with annual inflation declining in each of the past 12 months. Compared with advanced European economies, the United States has the lowest harmonized headline inflation rate—a comparable measure of inflation. In fact, compared with every other G7 economy, the United States has not just the lowest headline inflation but also the lowest core inflation—inflation that excludes volatile energy and food prices. Core inflation is the preferred measure of central banks.” [14] 6. Biden continues to find effective ways to reduce and forgive student debt, despite Trump’s Republican-leaning Supreme Court blocking some of it. Biden has been helping millions of Americans by forgiving over $130 billion dollars of loans and interest, allowing more and more graduates to save their money or spend it to help themselves and stimulate the economy. This may not be a long-term solution to the problem of the ever-increasing cost of college – and we do need to seriously explore long-term solutions too – but this at least provides some important and immediate relief for many young adults who would otherwise financially drown. [15] 7a. On the topic of labor, Biden is incredibly pro-union and continues to fight for workers’ rights. He updated the Davis-Bacon standards to prevent federal contractors from paying below-market wages; he raised the contractor minimum wage to $15/hour and made it easier for workers to unionize, collectively bargain, and fight for fair and equitable wages; he signed an executive order in January 2021 (as soon as he took office) that empowered federal workers by reversing Trump’s 2018 executive order that had made it easier to fire workers and harder for them to collectively bargain; he appointed officials at both the U.S. Department of Labor and National Labor Relations Board who actively expand resources for educating workers on their rights; and he was the first president to ever join workers on a picket line. In addition to all of that, Biden created the White House Task Force on Worker Organizing and Empowerment (chaired by Vice President Kamala Harris), which teamed up with the Department of Treasury to study the positive effects of unions on the economy, and released a first-of-its-kind report to promote the long list of benefits associated with unions. [16] [17] 7b. There are many union leaders voicing their appreciation for Biden and disdain for Trump; here are two such examples: Lee Saunders and Shawn Fain. Lee Saunders, the president of AFSCME (the largest trade union of public employees in the United States), said, “President Joe Biden is the most pro-union, pro-worker president of our lifetimes – hands down, no contest. He not only understands the importance of supporting working people, but he is a trade unionist at heart. He believes in the power of collective bargaining. He believes that everyone who wants to exercise their freedom to organize should do so without interference. And he has not been shy about saying so.” Shawn Fain, the president of UAW (United Auto Workers – another large American labor union), said, “Nowhere in history has Donald Trump ever stood for the American worker. He stands against pretty much everything we stand for. … Our contract fight with the Big Three [Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis; Stellantis owns Jeep, Ram, Chrysler, Dodge, etc.], our most successful contract in history, President Biden stood there with us on the picket line, unlike President Trump back in '19, when GM was on strike for 40 days and he was completely not existent and silent on the issue. I can go through a list of things, the difference in the candidates. It's very clear to us who stands with working-class people in this country and who stands against them. … In 2008-2009, the economic recession, Donald Trump blamed the workers for what was wrong with these companies. … You know, versus President Biden, who, in 2023, when a plant was going to close in Belvidere, Illinois, for Stellantis, he stood with those workers. He helped us save a community and helped bring not one plant but two plants back to life, and he stood with our members on the picket line in our fight for economic justice.” [18] [19] 8. While Biden’s weakest area is probably foreign policy – there are plenty of criticisms, and some compliments, for certain decisions his administration has made for the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the Afghanistan exit – he has significantly improved relations with most other countries, and has restored the United States’ image in the eyes of our allies. The rest of the world has viewed the United States extremely positively under Democratic presidents (especially under both Obama and Biden) and extremely negatively under Republican presidents (especially under both George W. Bush and Trump), and re-earning the world’s respect and trust has allowed Biden to be more persuasive and more effective than Trump could ever be. For example, while some people dislike how much assistance Biden has given to Ukraine’s defense, he has managed to avoid sending American troops, he has persuaded other countries to also contribute to Ukraine, and he is successfully helping Ukraine to cripple Russian influence in the region. Trump’s volatility, ego, and love of dictatorships would never permit him to handle any international conflict in a thoughtful, measured, and practical manner, and world leaders relentlessly – and correctly – mock Trump’s ignorance. [20] [21] 9. Biden is pro-choice and pro-LGBTQ+, and he has specific policies in place to reduce discrimination of sex, gender, and sexual orientation, which has earned him the support of the National Organization for Women (NOW) – the largest feminist organization in the country – as well as GLAAD – the world’s largest pro-LGBTQ+ media advocacy organization – and the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) – another major pro-LGBTQ+ organization. The policy list for supporting women is dozens of points long and is outlined on the NOW website (see [22]); it focuses on “five main issue areas: economic security, healthcare, care infrastructure, ending violence against women, and protecting and empowering women globally. Combined, this agenda targets some of the most pressing issues facing women, especially women of color, today in the U.S.” The GLAAD website has documented hundreds of pro-LGBTQ+ examples under the Biden administration, including executive orders, legislative support, speeches, and nominations. Sarah Kate Ellis, the GLAAD president and CEO, said, “President Biden included LGBTQ people in his vision for a more equal, more free, and more compassionate country. In re-upping his call for Congress to pass the Equality Act and protect transgender youth, the President is leading by example to expand freedom so no one is left behind. The call is urgent. LGBTQ Americans’ safety and dignity are under attack in state legislatures across the country, and our protections are at risk from the hostile majority on the U.S. Supreme Court. Every lawmaker and every voter must speak up for LGBTQ people, and secure protections against discrimination, so we all have a greater chance to belong, be safe, and to succeed.” The HRC website adds, “President Biden and Vice President Harris have been steadfast, fearless, and unyielding in their support of LGBTQ+ Americans. This administration has achieved landmark victories for LGBTQ+ Americans in its first term — from protecting our right to marry who we love and challenging discriminatory laws seeking to deny healthcare to transgender youth, to strengthening policies that prevent discrimination in foster care, and affirming the identities of all Americans. What’s at stake in the 2024 presidential election for LGBTQ+ people is our humanity, our right to exist, and our ability to live and raise our families in environments free from discrimination and fear. We’re ready to mobilize millions of Equality Voters to support pro-equality, pro-choice, and pro-democracy candidates like President Biden and Vice President Harris. Let’s win this.” [22] [23] [24] [25] 10. The current Supreme Court is the most conservative and lopsided it has been in decades, thanks to Trump’s three appointed justices. Electing Democratic presidents is the best way to start recalibrating the Supreme Court towards the center with more left-leaning justices, such as Biden’s appointee, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. We already saw the overturning of Roe v. Wade; who knows what other progress could be undone with more Republican presidents appointing more conservative Supreme Court justices. This may also appeal to American voters who consider themselves centrist or moderate or preferring a balance of liberal and conservative leaders, given that the Supreme Court is currently heavily skewed towards favoring Republicans. [26] There is certainly more that President Biden could do – he could find better ways to address systemic racism, voting rights, immigration reform, education, healthcare, and so on – and then I would be even happier with his presidency. Nevertheless, he’s still done an impressive job so far, and Trump’s presidency doesn’t have a list of positives that are even remotely comparable. We don’t even need to consider Trump’s negatives – although we absolutely should: undermining our elections with conspiracy theories, purposely stealing and keeping and sharing classified documents even after he no longer had clearance, handling covid terribly by peddling anti-science and anti-medicine propaganda, perpetuating racism and sexism, being found civilly liable for sexual assault and needing to pay tens of millions of dollars in damages for defaming his victim, facing 91 felonies and soon-to-be found guilty of at least some of those criminal charges, etc. Biden is an easy pick for me, and he should be an easy pick for you too; I just wish he did a better job of explaining why. Sources: [1] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684[2] Infrastructure Investment And Jobs Act: 162 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Investment_and_Jobs_Act [3] CHIPs And Science Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4346[4] CHIPs And Science Act: 87 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHIPS_and_Science_Act [5] Inflation Reduction Act: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5376[6] Inflation Reduction Act: 227 references and summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_Reduction_Act [7] Unemployment Data: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/unemployment-rate [8] Median Wage Growth Data: https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker [9] Job Creation Data: https://seidmaninstitute.com/job-growth/year/ [10] Stock Market Data (Dow Jones): https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart [11] Stock Market Data (S&P 500): https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^GSPC/ [12] U.S. Inflation Data: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/ [13] Average U.S. Gas Prices: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epmr_pte_nus_dpg&f=m [14] Global Inflation Comparison: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/7-reasons-the-u-s-economy-is-among-the-strongest-in-the-g7/ [15] Student Loan Forgiveness: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-student-loan-forgiveness-debt-2024/ [16] Pro-Labor Examples: https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/8-ways-the-biden-administration-has-fought-for-working-people-by-strengthening-unions/ [17] Biden-Harris-Treasury Pro-Union Research: https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706 [18] AFSCME Union Supporting Biden: https://www.afscme.org/press/releases/2023/saunders-president-joe-biden-is-the-most-pro-union-president-of-our-lifetimes [19] UAW Union Supporting Biden: https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2024/01/27/uaw-president-shawn-fain-fox-news-neil-cavuto-david-pakman/72379756007/ [20] Global Confidence For Biden And Trump: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image-abroad-rebounds-with-transition-from-trump-to-biden/ [21] World Leaders Mocking Trump: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/04/trump-describes-trudeau-as-two-faced-over-nato-hot-mic-video [22] NOW Policy List Supporting Women: https://now.org/the-biden-agenda-for-women/ [23] GLAAD Pro-LGBTQ+ Examples: https://glaad.org/biden-harris/ [24] GLAAD Pro-Biden Statement: https://glaad.org/releases/2023-biden-sotu/ [25] HRC Pro-Biden Statement: https://www.hrc.org/resources/biden-harris-2024-campaign [26] Supreme Court Skewed Conservative: https://www.npr.org/2022/07/05/1109444617/the-supreme-court-conservative My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." I don't blame you for disagreeing with Biden's handling of Israel-Palestine, and I certainly agree with you that it's a problem if people are celebrating the genocide of Palestinians. Given that both presidential candidates would likely continue "aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians", don't you think it's worth looking at other aspects of the Biden presidency and the Trump presidency? Bernie is far from perfect (should have said this and more/better months ago), but this is the least I could expect from someone I would consider voting for. https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1754232724322156767Speaking to your points generally, none of that even approaches non-reformist reform, so I view it as oppositional to desirable strategies and outcomes (while typically less immediately devastating than Republican preferences). And it seems to be the case that "less immediately devastating than Republican preferences", i.e., the lesser of two evils, isn't convincing enough for you, correct? Even though there doesn't exist a third presidential option, as Gorsameth pointed out, and especially not one with views that approach the kind of reform you're looking for? I think this whole "communication" talking point resonates a lot among media, politicians, party loyalists, professional-managerial class types, and the like, but I don't think it's really capturing the various angles his clear and record breaking unpopularity is coming from.
Electorally it's likely all about Michigan (though Democrats could lose through Wisconsin too) so to the degree there is value in the "communication" line, it's in tailoring those "communication" talking points to that audience. One problem being that unenthusiastic voters to Biden's left and fencesitting "independents" have very different ideas on what that would sound like. Trying to spin them for both would probably fail to sway either.
Without a real primary to pressure Biden to make commitments to his left flank (not talking about socialists, just social dems between Bernie and Biden), it's probably going to be all-in on bending over backwards to appease "independents/never Trump Republicans" at the expense of Democrats most disproportionate and consistent supporters as well as other oppressed/marginalized groups. This is represented by things like Biden's insistence on aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians, Democrats agreeing to Republican's cracking down on the border (apparently for naught), and Cop City (being shepherded in part by Black Democrat politicians).
Considering Biden barely won with much more favorable polling, it may be another Clinton situation where we could attribute a potential Biden loss to a long list of factors where people will emphasize the ones that fit their worldview. For Democrats this typically manifests as petulantly blaming those to their left. I think in practice, I agree with you here, but probably because a lot of people don't like to compromise. In order to appease both the fence-sitting independents and those on the left, Biden would have needed to accomplish things that make both groups happy. I think my list might include some of those things, but it depends on the individual (e.g., you're a counterexample, and that's okay) and it depends how willing to compromise each group is. There is a difference, of course, between the mindset of "Biden did a few things that I wanted, and a few things I didn't want, so I think that's good enough" and "Biden did a few things that I wanted, and a few things I didn't want, and that's not good enough to have earned my vote". It'll be interesting to see how Biden approaches the key swing states you mentioned! I meant rationalizing/insisting on/celebrating voting for a man complicit in an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign, but yeah, celebrating genocide specifically too I guess. Of course Biden's support for an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign isn't all that I'm considering, it's just more than enough to lose my vote on its own. Correct, "lesser evilism" is woefully inadequate and ultimately a rationalization for wilfully supporting "evil" imo. Neglecting Democrats choice not to have a real primary, the notion that we're limited to a choice between two evils ignores a key concept of the "american experiment". The consent of the governed, which is the only real backstop to "lesser evilism" Since Democrats won't even threaten to withdraw their consent despite their leadership materially supporting an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign (or Cop City, border crackdowns, etc), I can't trust that they would withdraw their consent if/when I or other people I care about are the people on the chopping block that they have to sacrifice for political expediency next and/or again (which is basically how I read painfully euphemistic spins like "he could find better ways to address systemic racism"). While I don't personally think that Biden is just the lesser of two evils, I would like to ask a follow-up question about your general view of how being the lesser of two evils is inadequate and not worthy of your vote. Is that always true for you, or is it hypothetically possible to make Trump so evil/negative/regressive (without improving any of Biden's flaws, so Biden would still merely be the lesser of two evils) that the gap between them becomes so huge that you would finally consider voting for Biden / the (sufficiently) lesser of two evils? While I reject the framing of "evil", I don't think you appreciate how problematic it is you and others don't identify aiding and abetting an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign as abhorrent to the point of being disqualifying. It's been a bit since I've mentioned it, but the problem isn't that the gap isn't large enough, it's that Biden and Democrats generally are unacceptable. My general thought was that openly aiding and abetting an ethnic cleansing campaign would finally cross that line for more people, but I've been sorely disappointed. I don't think it would be particularly helpful for me to reiterate what other people wrote earlier about there only being two outcomes (either Biden wins or Trump wins), and that taking the possibly-morally-virtuous road of not supporting either candidate doesn't actually stop one of them from winning the election... Was your second paragraph the answer to my question? I get that you find the Democrats unacceptable, but would there be a hypothetical scenario where the Democratic candidate - while still morally unacceptable to you - is worth voting for, due to the Republican opponent being so, so, so much worse (like in micronesia's example)? I reject the assertion that those are the only two possible outcomes. Granted they currently have the highest likelihoods, with Trump winning being the most likely. In part, because Democrats (including those that chose not to run in a primary) have insisted on pushing a candidate with worse approval numbers than Trump, as the "only alternative" to him. Which to me is as stubbornly foolish as it sounds. One problem (that I realize is more salient than I thought) is that unacceptable means unacceptable. "Unacceptable but worth voting for" isn't a thing. Once you're voting for them you've deemed them and their actions acceptable, with some combination of enthusiasm and regret. Another problem with the question is that because of how the US electoral system works, my vote is functionally meaningless to the outcome. As in the winning presidential candidate in my state (and probably nationally) will be announced before my vote is even counted. So there's no reason for me to vote for Biden. Doesn't matter how bad you make the Republican alternative. Pretty much all voting for Biden would do is make me an unneeded voluntary accomplice to his crimes against humanity. There is however (among many others) a very compelling reason not to vote for him, his complicity in an ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign against an oppressed people. So it's an easy no for me no matter how bad the Republican alternative is. All this means is that you're in a privileged enough position to not vote and not have it provide directly negative consequences, though. It isn't actually a path forward. What do you gain out of loudly proclaiming Biden unacceptable to you? Do you hope others in more contested states ALSO not vote for Biden? Would you consider that progress? I don't really consider the idiosyncrasies of US politics that lead to my vote being functionally meaningless me being "privileged", but that does help me contextualize your perspective. iirc DPB is in a state where Biden won by over 700,000 votes, I think he'll be okay if DPB chooses not to vote for a guy engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign. I'd argue a lot better off than I think DPB would be having to live with voting for him unnecessarily.
In a strict sense it is privilege though. Right now you've got Biden, who has done things you consider unacceptable and make him not a candidate, as well as Trump, who I would hope has done things you consider unacceptable and make him not a candidate. That means not voting is your only viable remaining choice, and you're protected by your actions not changing the result you'd ultimately prefer given the limited choice (?). You're privileged in that you can withhold your vote on moral grounds and not have it result in a disastrous outcome. There are those in the US that do not have that privilege.
Outside of the context of the US political structures, sure, not at all a privilege to have your vote mean basically nothing. That's not what we're talking about!
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I have a very general question:
Am I the only one who feels Biden seems almost a bit senile/confused at times? Did Trump at times feel like an irresponsible, insane, egocentric humanbeing?
So this is just a prelude to the main question to be honest..
Is it not insanely apparent that the influence/competence/importance of the POTUS is insanely overrated? I mean I think we all arent believing at all anymore what we (at least I was) were told as children "The POTUS it the most powerful humanbeing in the world"..
Am I the only one who finds this a bit confusing. I could buy it for Bush (although he had issues too) I could buy it for Obama to some extent.
But with Trump and now Biden I feel like it is so blatantly obvious that u dont even need to be above average at all in terms of mental capacity / sanity.
Am I missing something obvious here?
Genuinely interested.
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On February 07 2024 15:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Doesnt really answer the question of whether being in a swing state would have any consequence for your mindset.
Tbh if the israel palestine question is the most important one then that is one hell of a good reason to consider biden the lesser evil. Cell posting so not bothering with sources but im pretty certain trump's previous period emboldened Israel to be more aggressive.
You would be right, they even named a new settlement in Golan Heights after Trump as recognition for his support for their policies.
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Canada11266 Posts
@FriedrichNietzsche
It's a curious case because on one hand, yes he is the most powerful in the sense of he is the head of state of the most powerful country in the world, and has the nuclear codes, etc, etc.
However, in actual policy making he is a lot more circumscribed compared to the Westminster system, and my suspicion is an incompetent administrator is a lot less exposed. Like, the president has to wait for laws to arrive for him to sign or veto. He also does not seem to have much say on the composition of his party, if they are not towing the line.
By contrast, in the Westminster system, the prime-minister is the chief policy maker, and if there is a law he wants, he or his cabinet ministers can draft it and start sending it through Parliament. None of this 'please send me a bill I can sign'. And then the Prime Minister can whip a vote, forcing his entire party to vote one way, and kick party members out of the party if they don't play ball. All of this makes the prime minister in the Westminster system far more powerful within their own political system, even if geopolitically, they're a two bit country.
The prime-minister is also far more exposed because they are in the general scrum of parliamentary debate. A doddering old man would not politically survive in such a piranha tank. You can duck out of some politically inconvenient debates from time to time, but if you are confused in your thoughts and slow and stuttering in your speech that becomes pretty obvious in Question Period. By contrast, I suspect you can get by with controlled speeches and a supportive cabinet that can cover for an ailing president.
However, I think the theory of the American method is that, the powers have been distributed enough that even if an empty suit gets voted in (let's say a severely mentally declined Biden), the government still functions and the powers are limited enough that even if an absolute wild card gets voted in (Trump), they can't do too much damage. Is this an election to test the resiliency of the Republic?
Just some speculation though.
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Northern Ireland23769 Posts
On February 07 2024 16:27 FriedrichNietzsche wrote:
I have a very general question:
Am I the only one who feels Biden seems almost a bit senile/confused at times? Did Trump at times feel like an irresponsible, insane, egocentric humanbeing?
So this is just a prelude to the main question to be honest..
Is it not insanely apparent that the influence/competence/importance of the POTUS is insanely overrated? I mean I think we all arent believing at all anymore what we (at least I was) were told as children "The POTUS it the most powerful humanbeing in the world"..
Am I the only one who finds this a bit confusing. I could buy it for Bush (although he had issues too) I could buy it for Obama to some extent.
But with Trump and now Biden I feel like it is so blatantly obvious that u dont even need to be above average at all in terms of mental capacity / sanity.
Am I missing something obvious here?
Genuinely interested.
I thought you were long dead but welcome to the thread!
There’s a lot the President can’t do, but so long as enough people believe they’re the most powerful person on the planet, in ways that becomes true. Or at least the belief has meaningful and pervasive consequences.
Tens of millions of Americans believe Biden is to blame for the state of the economy, inflation especially. I mean is he singularly doing that? No of course not, it’s an issue that is afflicting a good chunk of the globe currently, but many people believe, and thus behave as if it is the case.
It’s a difficult thing to quantify, but it’s damn impactful. Obama’s election, both as a departure from Bush and the symbolic breaking of the previously exclusively white complexion of his forebears did have something of a galvanising effect on morale for some time, and definitely made good chunks of the globe more warmly disposed to the US. And not that Obama didn’t do anything good, but I feel that effect on the wider morale was almost more impactful than what he did legislatively.
In an influence sense it seems to me that the President of the US is pretty unique in that they wield a lot of it both domestically and internationally
The flip side of Obama is Trump, in that he’s absolutely poisoned the well, and had a lot more influence on the wider culture than what he managed through the mechanisms of his office. Ok there’s the wall, Supreme Court nominations etc, but most of Trump’s influence has been fuelling the ‘culture war’, widening civic division and that’s something I highly doubt anyone could do without becoming President, and it’s something I imagine will take quite some time to heal, possibly long after Trump departs this mortal coil.
I personally feel Biden is showing his age, there’s no way he’d be running if he wasn’t the incumbent. IMO it’s a mistake, but it’s really just one of circumstance, the wider Dem machine thinks incumbent advantage will outweigh those concerns, and don’t want to risk a primary and a new candidate. Not ideal certainly!
Trump is just the avatar for the rage of conservatives against, basically everything and anything. He ‘says it like it is’ and legitimises the things his base feels but would prefer someone else voices first.
It’s never been about competence, or policy, or indeed any kind of coherent ideology. Just anger morphing into some weird cult of personality.
Hey there’s plenty of conservatives I respect out there despite disagreements, I feel on the odd issue they’ve got a point, but as a broader cohort they’ve let someone as patently, patently unsuitable to run basically anything hijack their party of choice.
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On February 07 2024 15:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Doesnt really answer the question of whether being in a swing state would have any consequence for your mindset.
Tbh if the israel palestine question is the most important one then that is one hell of a good reason to consider biden the lesser evil. Cell posting so not bothering with sources but im pretty certain trump's previous period emboldened Israel to be more aggressive.
No one quite got to actually asking that question specifically, but I'd still be demanding Biden immediately stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign if he even wanted me to consider voting for him.
If Biden needs the "people that find ethnic cleansing campaigns unacceptable" vote, he needs to not be engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign. If that's not his choice, then he needs to look elsewhere and that's on him, not people with a conscience.
Trying to convince the "people that find ethnic cleansing campaigns unacceptable" that actually it's acceptable to vote for a guy engaged in an ethnic campaign, I seriously believe pushes all of humanity backwards.
It also irreparably eviscerates any semblance of an international rules based order that exists beyond the "Realpolitik" of US dominated racial capitalist hegemony. That's not good for anyone relying on the UN in pretty much any capacity (which would basically include all of us in that it's part of our strategy to avoid WWIII/Mad Max).
So my concerns aren't just some sort of petty personal moral objection but a critique about self-destructive systemic issues. I've tried to summarize a bit by highlighting that the people trying to rationalize voting for a guy engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign also plan to hand the nuclear football and control of the most powerful military on the planet over to a fascist. A fascist they're convinced will destroy the democracy that they'd need to remove him/his successors should they fail to convince enough people that actually voting for people engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign is acceptable (and I'm sure the far-right would never be so uncouth as to exploit that revelation, nor Democrats so mindlessly cynical as to go along for political expediency...).
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On February 06 2024 21:27 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 20:21 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:
My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." If your metric is 'any candidate that supports Israel' will lose your vote, then you won't find any candidates in the Western world, period. I mean, even in far more liberal European parties, tacit support for Israel is a given. No one is happy about it, but no one is withdrawing support either. If ‘support’ means believe it has a right to exist as a state, and has some right to self-defence of its people, then yeah I’d agree you’ll struggle to find many who don’t. Equally you will find many individuals, as well as whole parties who oppose settlements, back BDS and disagree with how the current conflict is being conducted. Although I’d assume it’s broadly a minority, or often these parties aren’t actually wielding the power of governments. While not innately hostile or opposed to Israel, I wouldn’t class those sorts of positions as supporting Israel either. In the UK your choices are more limited given Labour have become noticeably more hawkishly aligned with Israel under Starmer in terms of the Parliamentary party and its policy prescriptions, but even then that tradition hasn’t entirely dissipated from individual MPs who’ve long held other views, or the wider party membership.
No western country has introduced sanctions (or threatened to) after the ICJ ruling, and no major left-leaning party is making the argument that we should use any means at our disposal (economic sanctions being the easiest) to stop this genocide from happening. I.e. we all tacitly support Israel in what they're doing.
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On February 07 2024 18:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 15:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Doesnt really answer the question of whether being in a swing state would have any consequence for your mindset.
Tbh if the israel palestine question is the most important one then that is one hell of a good reason to consider biden the lesser evil. Cell posting so not bothering with sources but im pretty certain trump's previous period emboldened Israel to be more aggressive. No one quite got to actually asking that question specifically, but I'd still be demanding Biden immediately stop aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign if he even wanted me to consider voting for him. If Biden needs the "people that find ethnic cleansing campaigns unacceptable" vote, he needs to not be engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign. If that's not his choice, then he needs to look elsewhere and that's on him, not people with a conscience. Trying to convince the "people that find ethnic cleansing campaigns unacceptable" that actually it's acceptable to vote for a guy engaged in an ethnic campaign, I seriously believe pushes all of humanity backwards. It also irreparably eviscerates any semblance of an international rules based order that exists beyond the "Realpolitik" of US dominated racial capitalist hegemony. That's not good for anyone relying on the UN in pretty much any capacity (which would basically include all of us in that it's part of our strategy to avoid WWIII/Mad Max). So my concerns aren't just some sort of petty personal moral objection but a critique about self-destructive systemic issues. I've tried to summarize a bit by highlighting that the people trying to rationalize voting for a guy engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign also plan to hand the nuclear football and control of the most powerful military on the planet over to a fascist. A fascist they're convinced will destroy the democracy that they'd need to remove him/his successors should they fail to convince enough people that actually voting for people engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign is acceptable (and I'm sure the far-right would never be so uncouth as to exploit that revelation, nor Democrats so mindlessly cynical as to go along for political expediency...). So Biden moves to get the "I don't want to ethnically cleanse' vote. By doing so he loses all the Jewish votes, Trump becomes President, Netanyahu becomes more emboldened and now truly 'solves' the Palestinian 'problem' and you sleep soundly in your bed because hey, you made the moral choice?
Everyone here understands your position, but you always argue from a point that is completely devoid of the political reality in the US and the wider world while most discussing here try to remain at least somewhat connected to the world we actually live in.
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On February 07 2024 18:30 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 21:27 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2024 20:21 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:
My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." If your metric is 'any candidate that supports Israel' will lose your vote, then you won't find any candidates in the Western world, period. I mean, even in far more liberal European parties, tacit support for Israel is a given. No one is happy about it, but no one is withdrawing support either. If ‘support’ means believe it has a right to exist as a state, and has some right to self-defence of its people, then yeah I’d agree you’ll struggle to find many who don’t. Equally you will find many individuals, as well as whole parties who oppose settlements, back BDS and disagree with how the current conflict is being conducted. Although I’d assume it’s broadly a minority, or often these parties aren’t actually wielding the power of governments. While not innately hostile or opposed to Israel, I wouldn’t class those sorts of positions as supporting Israel either. In the UK your choices are more limited given Labour have become noticeably more hawkishly aligned with Israel under Starmer in terms of the Parliamentary party and its policy prescriptions, but even then that tradition hasn’t entirely dissipated from individual MPs who’ve long held other views, or the wider party membership. No western country has introduced sanctions (or threatened to) after the ICJ ruling, and no major left-leaning party is making the argument that we should use any means at our disposal (economic sanctions being the easiest) to stop this genocide from happening. I.e. we all tacitly support Israel in what they're doing.
Well, Israel has a month to respond to the ruling. Proposing sanctions before Israel lays out their (almost certainly inadequate) action plan to stop committing genocide would jump the gun. But I'm sure that the minute the ICJ receives the plan, finds it inadequate, and punts it to the UN, there will be a resolution to do something about it. Whether that is supported by any western nation is something we can visit again when it happens. In the absense of a UN resolution, countries can obviously individually sanction Israel, and if the EU were to do even a light slap on the wrist, it could have a big effect, as the EU (even without the UK) is the biggest trade partner of Israel. I don't really think the EU can afford not to act if they want to maintain their aspirations for a union of nations beyond just trade.
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Northern Ireland23769 Posts
On February 07 2024 18:30 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 21:27 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2024 20:21 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:
My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." If your metric is 'any candidate that supports Israel' will lose your vote, then you won't find any candidates in the Western world, period. I mean, even in far more liberal European parties, tacit support for Israel is a given. No one is happy about it, but no one is withdrawing support either. If ‘support’ means believe it has a right to exist as a state, and has some right to self-defence of its people, then yeah I’d agree you’ll struggle to find many who don’t. Equally you will find many individuals, as well as whole parties who oppose settlements, back BDS and disagree with how the current conflict is being conducted. Although I’d assume it’s broadly a minority, or often these parties aren’t actually wielding the power of governments. While not innately hostile or opposed to Israel, I wouldn’t class those sorts of positions as supporting Israel either. In the UK your choices are more limited given Labour have become noticeably more hawkishly aligned with Israel under Starmer in terms of the Parliamentary party and its policy prescriptions, but even then that tradition hasn’t entirely dissipated from individual MPs who’ve long held other views, or the wider party membership. No western country has introduced sanctions (or threatened to) after the ICJ ruling, and no major left-leaning party is making the argument that we should use any means at our disposal (economic sanctions being the easiest) to stop this genocide from happening. I.e. we all tacitly support Israel in what they're doing.
I mean an actual country doing that requires a party in power to do so.
British Labour was pretty pro-BDS pre-Starmer, I am presuming that across the totality of Europe there are at least some reasonably sizeable ones who hold those kind of policy prescriptions.
In terms of actually fucking doing anything in this regard, yeah you’re 100% correct, at least to my knowledge.
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On February 07 2024 19:02 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 18:30 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 06 2024 21:27 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2024 20:21 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:
My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." If your metric is 'any candidate that supports Israel' will lose your vote, then you won't find any candidates in the Western world, period. I mean, even in far more liberal European parties, tacit support for Israel is a given. No one is happy about it, but no one is withdrawing support either. If ‘support’ means believe it has a right to exist as a state, and has some right to self-defence of its people, then yeah I’d agree you’ll struggle to find many who don’t. Equally you will find many individuals, as well as whole parties who oppose settlements, back BDS and disagree with how the current conflict is being conducted. Although I’d assume it’s broadly a minority, or often these parties aren’t actually wielding the power of governments. While not innately hostile or opposed to Israel, I wouldn’t class those sorts of positions as supporting Israel either. In the UK your choices are more limited given Labour have become noticeably more hawkishly aligned with Israel under Starmer in terms of the Parliamentary party and its policy prescriptions, but even then that tradition hasn’t entirely dissipated from individual MPs who’ve long held other views, or the wider party membership. No western country has introduced sanctions (or threatened to) after the ICJ ruling, and no major left-leaning party is making the argument that we should use any means at our disposal (economic sanctions being the easiest) to stop this genocide from happening. I.e. we all tacitly support Israel in what they're doing. Well, Israel has a month to respond to the ruling. Proposing sanctions before Israel lays out their (almost certainly inadequate) action plan to stop committing genocide would jump the gun. But I'm sure that the minute the ICJ receives the plan, finds it inadequate, and punts it to the UN, there will be a resolution to do something about it. Whether that is supported by any western nation is something we can visit again when it happens. In the absense of a UN resolution, countries can obviously individually sanction Israel, and if the EU were to do even a light slap on the wrist, it could have a big effect, as the EU (even without the UK) is the biggest trade partner of Israel. I don't really think the EU can afford not to act if they want to maintain their aspirations for a union of nations beyond just trade.
I will be very pleasantly surprised if this last point is true. I think the most likely outcome is that Israel comes up with something that the EU/US can swallow and continue doing what they're doing. I predict the end game will look something like a 'didn't technically commit genocide' outcome even if by any practical and common sense definition it actually was as close as you could get, resulting in no action taken by the US/EU side.
The whole problem is that this is a lose-lose situation politically for left-leaning parties so if they've got aspirations to govern they don't really want to touch it and would much rather it went away without having to do anything.
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On February 07 2024 18:30 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 21:27 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2024 20:21 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:
My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." If your metric is 'any candidate that supports Israel' will lose your vote, then you won't find any candidates in the Western world, period. I mean, even in far more liberal European parties, tacit support for Israel is a given. No one is happy about it, but no one is withdrawing support either. If ‘support’ means believe it has a right to exist as a state, and has some right to self-defence of its people, then yeah I’d agree you’ll struggle to find many who don’t. Equally you will find many individuals, as well as whole parties who oppose settlements, back BDS and disagree with how the current conflict is being conducted. Although I’d assume it’s broadly a minority, or often these parties aren’t actually wielding the power of governments. While not innately hostile or opposed to Israel, I wouldn’t class those sorts of positions as supporting Israel either. In the UK your choices are more limited given Labour have become noticeably more hawkishly aligned with Israel under Starmer in terms of the Parliamentary party and its policy prescriptions, but even then that tradition hasn’t entirely dissipated from individual MPs who’ve long held other views, or the wider party membership. No western country has introduced sanctions (or threatened to) after the ICJ ruling, and no major left-leaning party is making the argument that we should use any means at our disposal (economic sanctions being the easiest) to stop this genocide from happening. I.e. we all tacitly support Israel in what they're doing.
People keep throwing the word "genocide" but can anyone explain how what Israel is doing qualifies as such? As per Article 2 of the Genocide Convention genocide is defined as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
If the intention is to destroy Palestinian Arabs as such, why is Israel not doing anything about the millions of Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens?
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Norway28554 Posts
In Norway, sanctions/boycott of Israel is a serious discussion. It has popular support in the population, the voters from 7/9 parties in parliament lean towards some form of sanction, and the leftmost two parties have made propositions. I dont think we will see an actual resolution passed but it is pretty close. (We also didnt halt funding to UNRWA)
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On February 07 2024 19:30 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 18:30 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 06 2024 21:27 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2024 20:21 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:
My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." If your metric is 'any candidate that supports Israel' will lose your vote, then you won't find any candidates in the Western world, period. I mean, even in far more liberal European parties, tacit support for Israel is a given. No one is happy about it, but no one is withdrawing support either. If ‘support’ means believe it has a right to exist as a state, and has some right to self-defence of its people, then yeah I’d agree you’ll struggle to find many who don’t. Equally you will find many individuals, as well as whole parties who oppose settlements, back BDS and disagree with how the current conflict is being conducted. Although I’d assume it’s broadly a minority, or often these parties aren’t actually wielding the power of governments. While not innately hostile or opposed to Israel, I wouldn’t class those sorts of positions as supporting Israel either. In the UK your choices are more limited given Labour have become noticeably more hawkishly aligned with Israel under Starmer in terms of the Parliamentary party and its policy prescriptions, but even then that tradition hasn’t entirely dissipated from individual MPs who’ve long held other views, or the wider party membership. No western country has introduced sanctions (or threatened to) after the ICJ ruling, and no major left-leaning party is making the argument that we should use any means at our disposal (economic sanctions being the easiest) to stop this genocide from happening. I.e. we all tacitly support Israel in what they're doing. People keep throwing the word "genocide" but can anyone explain how what Israel is doing qualifies as such? As per Article 2 of the Genocide Convention genocide is defined as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. If the intention is to destroy Palestinian Arabs as such, why is Israel not doing anything about the millions of Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens?
You've just made the argument that no matter what Israel does in Gaza, Israel will "not be technically committing genocide" because Israeli Palestinians exist.
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Northern Ireland23769 Posts
On February 07 2024 19:30 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 18:30 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 06 2024 21:27 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2024 20:21 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 06 2024 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:
My first thought is: "I won't vote for someone aiding and abetting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians and find it irreconcilably problematic that Democrat voters rationalize/insist on/celebrate doing so." If your metric is 'any candidate that supports Israel' will lose your vote, then you won't find any candidates in the Western world, period. I mean, even in far more liberal European parties, tacit support for Israel is a given. No one is happy about it, but no one is withdrawing support either. If ‘support’ means believe it has a right to exist as a state, and has some right to self-defence of its people, then yeah I’d agree you’ll struggle to find many who don’t. Equally you will find many individuals, as well as whole parties who oppose settlements, back BDS and disagree with how the current conflict is being conducted. Although I’d assume it’s broadly a minority, or often these parties aren’t actually wielding the power of governments. While not innately hostile or opposed to Israel, I wouldn’t class those sorts of positions as supporting Israel either. In the UK your choices are more limited given Labour have become noticeably more hawkishly aligned with Israel under Starmer in terms of the Parliamentary party and its policy prescriptions, but even then that tradition hasn’t entirely dissipated from individual MPs who’ve long held other views, or the wider party membership. No western country has introduced sanctions (or threatened to) after the ICJ ruling, and no major left-leaning party is making the argument that we should use any means at our disposal (economic sanctions being the easiest) to stop this genocide from happening. I.e. we all tacitly support Israel in what they're doing. People keep throwing the word "genocide" but can anyone explain how what Israel is doing qualifies as such? As per Article 2 of the Genocide Convention genocide is defined as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. If the intention is to destroy Palestinian Arabs as such, why is Israel not doing anything about the millions of Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens?
Well A thru C seems ticked off anyway.
I’m unsure how I would classify it, genocide feels a stretch too far, but there are elements there.
If it weren’t for settlements one could frame it as a security action, albeit IMO way too brutal a one. But as that’s absolutely a thing it does raise certain other questions.
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EPT
