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United States24663 Posts
We really should spend more time looking into Donald Trump Junior's laptop and how the media has covered it up. Unlike Hunter Biden's laptop which everyone knew all about before and after the alleged censorship of politically inconvenient ideas, most of you probably haven't even heard about all the awful illegal stuff on Trump Junior's laptop which is currently in Hillary Clinton's possession. 
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Currently on pace for the fifth longest vote for Speaker unless some miraculous negotiation is reached. We're now in the territory of pre-U.S. civil war speakership acrimony.
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On January 06 2023 06:05 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2023 04:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 06 2023 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On January 06 2023 03:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 06 2023 01:41 ChristianS wrote:On January 06 2023 00:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2023 23:06 Sermokala wrote:On January 05 2023 14:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2023 10:32 Sermokala wrote:On January 05 2023 06:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
Is there anything specific on the laptop that people are disputing being genuine? To answer that properly we would need access to know whats all on the laptop, but "genuine" do you mean "What the things that have been released about whats on "the laptop" means anything at all to Joe biden"? I meant 'are there specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated?' or is that a red herring? The relations to Joe Biden are clear to me. It's also clear to me that he was aware that his son was selling influence (that he arguably didn't have) and independent of whether it was effective, it was obviously corrupt. Then there's the drugs. Had he not had such a critical role in destroying millions of people's lives for the same (often lesser) crimes he knows his son was committing, it wouldn't be so damnable. That he's done so little to remedially address what he now recognizes as the systematically cruel and horrific destruction of millions of people's lives he's uniquely personally responsible for and positioned to lead on remedying is damning enough on its own. However, seeing video/photos of Hunter Biden's crimes committed with impunity certainly amplified the "rules for thee but not for me" vibes. That is a bit of a red herring due to it never being released and also due to clear and obvious circumstances of the claimed way it was acquired. Second and third paragraphs no one I've ever seen has had a problem with hunter Biden being locked up. It's been a constant "if he did crimes he should go to jail". He's not committed these crime with impunity he has been investigated by the government and charges were rumored to be dropped after the election and they were just waiting for them not to effect the election. That hasn't happened yet which should point to the lack of actual evidence to them. You need to ask yourself how they got these videos photos and how they are being shown to you. The republicans have had it from before the presidential election, what have they done with this information? A simple "No there are not specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated, yes it is a red herring" would have been sufficient. Hunter Biden has obviously and self-admittedly committed crimes. He's enjoyed legal impunity for those crimes despite his father having been uniquely personally responsible for destroying millions of lives for the same and lessor crimes. That's not even up for debate, it's a matter of well documented fact. I don't know what people genuinely believe his no-show job was other than bribery, granting the people bribing Hunter Biden didn't seem to be getting their money's worth. Personally I believe (besides being factually wrong) the oblivious Joe/white house narrative is more shameful, but Joe knew about the no-show job and knew better than most people that his son was a nonsensical hire outside of it being bribery. Does any of that even really involve the laptop? We knew Hunter was an addict, and we knew he took some high-paid consulting-type jobs that he surely only got because of his last name. I’m not gonna look up Biden’s history on drug enforcement policy right now (I’ll take your word for it that it’s terrible) but sans laptop you could still indict him for hypocrisy if he favored mandatory minimums for the masses, but rehab and recovery for his son. Frankly the laptop has always seemed a lot like the Podesta emails stuff. It’s this whole JJ Abrams game of “look at this super secret box, don’t you think there’s probably some dark fucked-up stuff inside?” but the actual contents are pretty disappointing. One difference is, I can still name a couple things from the 2016 email hacks that *really were* pretty bad, but I haven’t even heard *allegations* from the laptop that seemed all that meaningful. IIRC there’s alleged evidence that Biden knew about Hunter’s consulting jobs, they were explicitly given to him as bribes, and Biden even demanded 10% of his son’s income. But what were these jobs, $500,000/year? That’s great money for a guy fresh out of rehab but it’s not much for bribe money in Washington DC, especially if you’re only taking 10%. Didn’t the Saudis just give Jared Kushner like $1billion or something? I guess my point is, I don’t think the subterfuge and innuendo of the laptop story are buying you anything here. Right-wingers mostly yell about it more for the fact it was *censored* than they do for the actual contents, and everything you’re complaining about here was public information already, no? None of it is dependent on the contents of the laptop, though there's arguably some "involvement". I don't think the subterfuge or innuendo from Republicans is necessary to recognize that Joe Biden knew about the job when Hunter took it, knew he was unqualified, and knew why he was getting it anyway. Yet he and Hunter pretended Burisma needed Hunter Biden's professional help to keep them on the straight and narrow as if that isn't laughable on its face. Beyond getting clarity on whether people disputed that the laptop contents that have been released were authentically from/of Hunter Biden (they don't afaict) my other point was that regardless of what is or isn't ultimately shown in Hunter's data, Joe Biden (Hunter too for whatever that matters) is plenty deplorable based on his own actions/policy (historical and contemporary). No one should need an investigation into the laptop to see that both parties and every president is corrupted by the influence of money in US politics. Whether Joe Biden is provably in a court of law guilty of so egregiously stepping outside of normally accepted US political corruption that it would net a conviction in US criminal court (as well as the habitual/reflexive Trump whataboutism) misses the forest for the trees imo. Right but not your point is not "Hunter Biden laptop bad" but simply "US politics is shit and full of corruption". And you should know by now that this forum generally agrees with that statement. To the degree that's true that's why the discussion of stuff like chain of custody is a red herring. People know Biden and his party are corrupted by money, that lobbying/fundraising in the US is basically legalized bribery by another name, that nepotism is par for the course and so on. Regardless of what is or isn't shown by Hunter's files, no one is going to seriously argue that Joe Biden isn't a part of the normalized corruption that makes the worst version of the Burisma story look insignificant by comparison. How is it a red herring? Unless you have legitimate evidence for something you cannot state something is a fact. The laptop is not legitimate evidence. Going for a "both sides" argument is just silly. All you do with it is legitimize the very things you're complaining about so much.
Because no one is going to seriously argue that Joe Biden isn't a part of the normalized US corruption (it's fair to argue it's capitalists doing capitalism imo) that makes the worst version of the Burisma story look insignificant by comparison.
It's not a "both sides" argument other than I obviously don't think this is only a problem with Democrats. The chronic whataboutism regarding Republicans isn't wrong about their rampant improprieties and legalized corruption.
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My favorite part of this whole joke of a process is that the GOP is gradually becoming less unified with each vote
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The House adjourned for the night. I honestly don't expect tomorrow to be meaningfully different
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On January 06 2023 09:39 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2023 08:41 BlackJack wrote:On January 06 2023 08:00 Sadist wrote:On January 06 2023 07:00 BlackJack wrote:On January 06 2023 05:44 Gorsameth wrote:On January 06 2023 05:36 BlackJack wrote:On January 06 2023 01:41 ChristianS wrote:On January 06 2023 00:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2023 23:06 Sermokala wrote:On January 05 2023 14:44 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I meant 'are there specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated?' or is that a red herring?
The relations to Joe Biden are clear to me. It's also clear to me that he was aware that his son was selling influence (that he arguably didn't have) and independent of whether it was effective, it was obviously corrupt.
Then there's the drugs. Had he not had such a critical role in destroying millions of people's lives for the same (often lesser) crimes he knows his son was committing, it wouldn't be so damnable.
That he's done so little to remedially address what he now recognizes as the systematically cruel and horrific destruction of millions of people's lives he's uniquely personally responsible for and positioned to lead on remedying is damning enough on its own. However, seeing video/photos of Hunter Biden's crimes committed with impunity certainly amplified the "rules for thee but not for me" vibes. That is a bit of a red herring due to it never being released and also due to clear and obvious circumstances of the claimed way it was acquired. Second and third paragraphs no one I've ever seen has had a problem with hunter Biden being locked up. It's been a constant "if he did crimes he should go to jail". He's not committed these crime with impunity he has been investigated by the government and charges were rumored to be dropped after the election and they were just waiting for them not to effect the election. That hasn't happened yet which should point to the lack of actual evidence to them. You need to ask yourself how they got these videos photos and how they are being shown to you. The republicans have had it from before the presidential election, what have they done with this information? A simple "No there are not specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated, yes it is a red herring" would have been sufficient. Hunter Biden has obviously and self-admittedly committed crimes. He's enjoyed legal impunity for those crimes despite his father having been uniquely personally responsible for destroying millions of lives for the same and lessor crimes. That's not even up for debate, it's a matter of well documented fact. I don't know what people genuinely believe his no-show job was other than bribery, granting the people bribing Hunter Biden didn't seem to be getting their money's worth. Personally I believe (besides being factually wrong) the oblivious Joe/white house narrative is more shameful, but Joe knew about the no-show job and knew better than most people that his son was a nonsensical hire outside of it being bribery. Does any of that even really involve the laptop? We knew Hunter was an addict, and we knew he took some high-paid consulting-type jobs that he surely only got because of his last name. I’m not gonna look up Biden’s history on drug enforcement policy right now (I’ll take your word for it that it’s terrible) but sans laptop you could still indict him for hypocrisy if he favored mandatory minimums for the masses, but rehab and recovery for his son. Frankly the laptop has always seemed a lot like the Podesta emails stuff. It’s this whole JJ Abrams game of “look at this super secret box, don’t you think there’s probably some dark fucked-up stuff inside?” but the actual contents are pretty disappointing. One difference is, I can still name a couple things from the 2016 email hacks that *really were* pretty bad, but I haven’t even heard *allegations* from the laptop that seemed all that meaningful. IIRC there’s alleged evidence that Biden knew about Hunter’s consulting jobs, they were explicitly given to him as bribes, and Biden even demanded 10% of his son’s income. But what were these jobs, $500,000/year? That’s great money for a guy fresh out of rehab but it’s not much for bribe money in Washington DC, especially if you’re only taking 10%. Didn’t the Saudis just give Jared Kushner like $1billion or something? I guess my point is, I don’t think the subterfuge and innuendo of the laptop story are buying you anything here. Right-wingers mostly yell about it more for the fact it was *censored* than they do for the actual contents, and everything you’re complaining about here was public information already, no? Reasonable people everywhere are rightfully concerned when massive social media companies censor a legitimate story in the run up to an election. That's the only thing I think is interesting about the story anyway. I couldn't care less about the crack smoking and peddling influence with bullshit consulting jobs or whatever other mole hills the Republicans are trying to make a mountain from. But I certainly don't think the arguments that some are offering, e.g. "What about the Trump Kid's profiteering?" or "If there was wrongdoing how come there were no charges" are particularly good. Nobody here would bring the "Then why hasn't he been charged?" energy to defend any wrongdoing from a team MAGA guy. Are you still trying to claim that a story everyone knew about got supposedly censored? Are we going to have that argument again where it's not censorship because people still eventually heard about it? Or it's not censored if mirrored links exist? Some of the stuff that was censored were stolen nude pictures. It would have been a crime to not censor them. Guys who gives a flying fuck about the laptop. This is such a nothingburger its beyond ridiculous. Lets try to have a shred of good faith here. Its just an attempt at distraction from the blatent corruption by the Republicans and Trump administration in plain site. We actually had a sitting president having his children and son in law as large parts of the administration. When the fuck was the last time something like that happened or was deemed acceptable? Im glad Jared brought peace to the middle east and solved Covid. The best people. I think the bad faith arguments are people talking about chain-of-custody of the laptop or implying that Twitter's main motivation for suppression of the story had something to do with Hunter Biden's cock or that something isn't censored if it exists elsewhere on the internet or that if charges haven't been brought there must not be any wrongdoing. If the shoe were on the other foot and we were talking about a MAGA clansman's potential malfeasance none of this energy would be brought by the same people. It's 100% pure partisan hackery. Btw, I've already said the laptop itself is a nothingburger so no sense in beating that horse again. This is an example of actual journalistic integrity working. No we wont print that Hunter Biden laptop was found with damning evidence that Joe is corrput without being able to verify it. Those in possession (people in power in the republican party) chose not to release it likely because they knew it didnt have on it what they claimed. The actual news sites did release the info once they had it and it waa verified. This is an example of the system working not it failing. Bias is the only reason to not think so now all the facts are out.
Zuckerberg: Facebook made a mistake in suppressing the hunter biden laptop story
Yoel Roth former head of trust and safety at twitter: Twitter was wrong to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop story.
JimmiC: this is journalistic integrity at work and if you think it’s wrong you are biased
Can always count on you to rush to the defense of things that the people doing aren’t even defending themselves. As long as the partisanship calls for it. Once Musk starts banning things I’m sure your tune will change.
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On January 06 2023 08:41 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2023 08:00 Sadist wrote:On January 06 2023 07:00 BlackJack wrote:On January 06 2023 05:44 Gorsameth wrote:On January 06 2023 05:36 BlackJack wrote:On January 06 2023 01:41 ChristianS wrote:On January 06 2023 00:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2023 23:06 Sermokala wrote:On January 05 2023 14:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2023 10:32 Sermokala wrote:
[quote]
To answer that properly we would need access to know whats all on the laptop, but "genuine" do you mean "What the things that have been released about whats on "the laptop" means anything at all to Joe biden"?
I meant 'are there specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated?' or is that a red herring? The relations to Joe Biden are clear to me. It's also clear to me that he was aware that his son was selling influence (that he arguably didn't have) and independent of whether it was effective, it was obviously corrupt. Then there's the drugs. Had he not had such a critical role in destroying millions of people's lives for the same (often lesser) crimes he knows his son was committing, it wouldn't be so damnable. That he's done so little to remedially address what he now recognizes as the systematically cruel and horrific destruction of millions of people's lives he's uniquely personally responsible for and positioned to lead on remedying is damning enough on its own. However, seeing video/photos of Hunter Biden's crimes committed with impunity certainly amplified the "rules for thee but not for me" vibes. That is a bit of a red herring due to it never being released and also due to clear and obvious circumstances of the claimed way it was acquired. Second and third paragraphs no one I've ever seen has had a problem with hunter Biden being locked up. It's been a constant "if he did crimes he should go to jail". He's not committed these crime with impunity he has been investigated by the government and charges were rumored to be dropped after the election and they were just waiting for them not to effect the election. That hasn't happened yet which should point to the lack of actual evidence to them. You need to ask yourself how they got these videos photos and how they are being shown to you. The republicans have had it from before the presidential election, what have they done with this information? A simple "No there are not specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated, yes it is a red herring" would have been sufficient. Hunter Biden has obviously and self-admittedly committed crimes. He's enjoyed legal impunity for those crimes despite his father having been uniquely personally responsible for destroying millions of lives for the same and lessor crimes. That's not even up for debate, it's a matter of well documented fact. I don't know what people genuinely believe his no-show job was other than bribery, granting the people bribing Hunter Biden didn't seem to be getting their money's worth. Personally I believe (besides being factually wrong) the oblivious Joe/white house narrative is more shameful, but Joe knew about the no-show job and knew better than most people that his son was a nonsensical hire outside of it being bribery. Does any of that even really involve the laptop? We knew Hunter was an addict, and we knew he took some high-paid consulting-type jobs that he surely only got because of his last name. I’m not gonna look up Biden’s history on drug enforcement policy right now (I’ll take your word for it that it’s terrible) but sans laptop you could still indict him for hypocrisy if he favored mandatory minimums for the masses, but rehab and recovery for his son. Frankly the laptop has always seemed a lot like the Podesta emails stuff. It’s this whole JJ Abrams game of “look at this super secret box, don’t you think there’s probably some dark fucked-up stuff inside?” but the actual contents are pretty disappointing. One difference is, I can still name a couple things from the 2016 email hacks that *really were* pretty bad, but I haven’t even heard *allegations* from the laptop that seemed all that meaningful. IIRC there’s alleged evidence that Biden knew about Hunter’s consulting jobs, they were explicitly given to him as bribes, and Biden even demanded 10% of his son’s income. But what were these jobs, $500,000/year? That’s great money for a guy fresh out of rehab but it’s not much for bribe money in Washington DC, especially if you’re only taking 10%. Didn’t the Saudis just give Jared Kushner like $1billion or something? I guess my point is, I don’t think the subterfuge and innuendo of the laptop story are buying you anything here. Right-wingers mostly yell about it more for the fact it was *censored* than they do for the actual contents, and everything you’re complaining about here was public information already, no? Reasonable people everywhere are rightfully concerned when massive social media companies censor a legitimate story in the run up to an election. That's the only thing I think is interesting about the story anyway. I couldn't care less about the crack smoking and peddling influence with bullshit consulting jobs or whatever other mole hills the Republicans are trying to make a mountain from. But I certainly don't think the arguments that some are offering, e.g. "What about the Trump Kid's profiteering?" or "If there was wrongdoing how come there were no charges" are particularly good. Nobody here would bring the "Then why hasn't he been charged?" energy to defend any wrongdoing from a team MAGA guy. Are you still trying to claim that a story everyone knew about got supposedly censored? Are we going to have that argument again where it's not censorship because people still eventually heard about it? Or it's not censored if mirrored links exist? Some of the stuff that was censored were stolen nude pictures. It would have been a crime to not censor them. Guys who gives a flying fuck about the laptop. This is such a nothingburger its beyond ridiculous. Lets try to have a shred of good faith here. Its just an attempt at distraction from the blatent corruption by the Republicans and Trump administration in plain site. We actually had a sitting president having his children and son in law as large parts of the administration. When the fuck was the last time something like that happened or was deemed acceptable? Im glad Jared brought peace to the middle east and solved Covid. The best people. I think the bad faith arguments are people talking about chain-of-custody of the laptop or implying that Twitter's main motivation for suppression of the story had something to do with Hunter Biden's cock or that something isn't censored if it exists elsewhere on the internet or that if charges haven't been brought there must not be any wrongdoing. If the shoe were on the other foot and we were talking about a MAGA clansman's potential malfeasance none of this energy would be brought by the same people. It's 100% pure partisan hackery. Btw, I've already said the laptop itself is a nothingburger so no sense in beating that horse again.
You can't just rock up to court with a hard drive and go "Yo, this is legit. Trust me." You have to prove that the drive is, unaltered, exactly how it was procured, from the source. This also includes legal go ahead to get it in the first place. Criminals have gotten off scott free because overzealous cops have improperly handled electronic evidence. It has to be preserved, unaltered, with absolute integrity. The possibility that anything was improperly acquired with means it's all useless. In a digital forensics class I had that only lasted 14 weeks the teacher said "preserve the evidence" over 100 times.
It's like trying to use DNA evidence when tons of people know how to rewrite DNA.
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On January 06 2023 10:43 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2023 08:41 BlackJack wrote:On January 06 2023 08:00 Sadist wrote:On January 06 2023 07:00 BlackJack wrote:On January 06 2023 05:44 Gorsameth wrote:On January 06 2023 05:36 BlackJack wrote:On January 06 2023 01:41 ChristianS wrote:On January 06 2023 00:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2023 23:06 Sermokala wrote:On January 05 2023 14:44 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I meant 'are there specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated?' or is that a red herring?
The relations to Joe Biden are clear to me. It's also clear to me that he was aware that his son was selling influence (that he arguably didn't have) and independent of whether it was effective, it was obviously corrupt.
Then there's the drugs. Had he not had such a critical role in destroying millions of people's lives for the same (often lesser) crimes he knows his son was committing, it wouldn't be so damnable.
That he's done so little to remedially address what he now recognizes as the systematically cruel and horrific destruction of millions of people's lives he's uniquely personally responsible for and positioned to lead on remedying is damning enough on its own. However, seeing video/photos of Hunter Biden's crimes committed with impunity certainly amplified the "rules for thee but not for me" vibes. That is a bit of a red herring due to it never being released and also due to clear and obvious circumstances of the claimed way it was acquired. Second and third paragraphs no one I've ever seen has had a problem with hunter Biden being locked up. It's been a constant "if he did crimes he should go to jail". He's not committed these crime with impunity he has been investigated by the government and charges were rumored to be dropped after the election and they were just waiting for them not to effect the election. That hasn't happened yet which should point to the lack of actual evidence to them. You need to ask yourself how they got these videos photos and how they are being shown to you. The republicans have had it from before the presidential election, what have they done with this information? A simple "No there are not specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated, yes it is a red herring" would have been sufficient. Hunter Biden has obviously and self-admittedly committed crimes. He's enjoyed legal impunity for those crimes despite his father having been uniquely personally responsible for destroying millions of lives for the same and lessor crimes. That's not even up for debate, it's a matter of well documented fact. I don't know what people genuinely believe his no-show job was other than bribery, granting the people bribing Hunter Biden didn't seem to be getting their money's worth. Personally I believe (besides being factually wrong) the oblivious Joe/white house narrative is more shameful, but Joe knew about the no-show job and knew better than most people that his son was a nonsensical hire outside of it being bribery. Does any of that even really involve the laptop? We knew Hunter was an addict, and we knew he took some high-paid consulting-type jobs that he surely only got because of his last name. I’m not gonna look up Biden’s history on drug enforcement policy right now (I’ll take your word for it that it’s terrible) but sans laptop you could still indict him for hypocrisy if he favored mandatory minimums for the masses, but rehab and recovery for his son. Frankly the laptop has always seemed a lot like the Podesta emails stuff. It’s this whole JJ Abrams game of “look at this super secret box, don’t you think there’s probably some dark fucked-up stuff inside?” but the actual contents are pretty disappointing. One difference is, I can still name a couple things from the 2016 email hacks that *really were* pretty bad, but I haven’t even heard *allegations* from the laptop that seemed all that meaningful. IIRC there’s alleged evidence that Biden knew about Hunter’s consulting jobs, they were explicitly given to him as bribes, and Biden even demanded 10% of his son’s income. But what were these jobs, $500,000/year? That’s great money for a guy fresh out of rehab but it’s not much for bribe money in Washington DC, especially if you’re only taking 10%. Didn’t the Saudis just give Jared Kushner like $1billion or something? I guess my point is, I don’t think the subterfuge and innuendo of the laptop story are buying you anything here. Right-wingers mostly yell about it more for the fact it was *censored* than they do for the actual contents, and everything you’re complaining about here was public information already, no? Reasonable people everywhere are rightfully concerned when massive social media companies censor a legitimate story in the run up to an election. That's the only thing I think is interesting about the story anyway. I couldn't care less about the crack smoking and peddling influence with bullshit consulting jobs or whatever other mole hills the Republicans are trying to make a mountain from. But I certainly don't think the arguments that some are offering, e.g. "What about the Trump Kid's profiteering?" or "If there was wrongdoing how come there were no charges" are particularly good. Nobody here would bring the "Then why hasn't he been charged?" energy to defend any wrongdoing from a team MAGA guy. Are you still trying to claim that a story everyone knew about got supposedly censored? Are we going to have that argument again where it's not censorship because people still eventually heard about it? Or it's not censored if mirrored links exist? Some of the stuff that was censored were stolen nude pictures. It would have been a crime to not censor them. Guys who gives a flying fuck about the laptop. This is such a nothingburger its beyond ridiculous. Lets try to have a shred of good faith here. Its just an attempt at distraction from the blatent corruption by the Republicans and Trump administration in plain site. We actually had a sitting president having his children and son in law as large parts of the administration. When the fuck was the last time something like that happened or was deemed acceptable? Im glad Jared brought peace to the middle east and solved Covid. The best people. I think the bad faith arguments are people talking about chain-of-custody of the laptop or implying that Twitter's main motivation for suppression of the story had something to do with Hunter Biden's cock or that something isn't censored if it exists elsewhere on the internet or that if charges haven't been brought there must not be any wrongdoing. If the shoe were on the other foot and we were talking about a MAGA clansman's potential malfeasance none of this energy would be brought by the same people. It's 100% pure partisan hackery. Btw, I've already said the laptop itself is a nothingburger so no sense in beating that horse again. You can't just rock up to court with a hard drive and go "Yo, this is legit. Trust me." You have to prove that the drive is, unaltered, exactly how it was procured, from the source. This also includes legal go ahead to get it in the first place. Criminals have gotten off scott free because overzealous cops have improperly handled electronic evidence. It has to be preserved, unaltered, with absolute integrity. The possibility that anything was improperly acquired with means it's all useless. In a digital forensics class I had that only lasted 14 weeks the teacher said "preserve the evidence" over 100 times. It's like trying to use DNA evidence when tons of people know how to rewrite DNA.
To add onto that, when you do a digital forensics/incident response scenario, you have to make an exact copy of the hard drive down to the bit. During the trial, when you present the hard drives for evidence, you have to compare the SHA1 and/or MD5 hashes and if even one bit on the copy is different from the original, the hashes will be completely different and the evidence gets thrown out, not to mention getting into the chain of custody process exactly right because if you fuck that up, the same thing happens.
I grow increasingly skeptical of digital evidence at times, especially when you have no way of knowing who touched it. One third-party could have access to it for literally one minute or less, not even able to log in, and you can't trust its contents anymore. I used to develop malware on flash drives that would automatically grab data from locked Windows computers, and malware to create and modify data on computers without the owner ever knowing exists.
If, for instance, it got revealed tomorrow that Trump Jr. had sensitive info on a laptop at a repair shop or whatever, and people had access to it, I wouldn't trust it until proven otherwise.
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It is probably impossible to use the laptop as legal evidence for the reasons you mentioned.
It does not preclude the investigators from using it as a source of leads to discover other damning evidence that is not spoiled in this way.
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United States42507 Posts
On January 06 2023 08:55 micronesia wrote:We really should spend more time looking into Donald Trump Junior's laptop and how the media has covered it up. Unlike Hunter Biden's laptop which everyone knew all about before and after the alleged censorship of politically inconvenient ideas, most of you probably haven't even heard about all the awful illegal stuff on Trump Junior's laptop which is currently in Hillary Clinton's possession.
If you can’t find a deaf man to assert that he once heard the laptop I will find it very hard to believe that story.
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I'm not sure that 2 years of Dems not investigating Dems suggests that there is nothing here.
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On January 06 2023 14:34 gobbledydook wrote:
I'm not sure that 2 years of Dems not investigating Dems suggests that there is nothing here.
The Congress does not even have the power to condemn or press legal charges, their investigations are political theatre. It is actually sad how much emphasis both parties still put on them.
There are other institutions which are better suited to doing criminal investigations the "dems" do not control.
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On January 06 2023 10:43 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2023 08:41 BlackJack wrote:On January 06 2023 08:00 Sadist wrote:On January 06 2023 07:00 BlackJack wrote:On January 06 2023 05:44 Gorsameth wrote:On January 06 2023 05:36 BlackJack wrote:On January 06 2023 01:41 ChristianS wrote:On January 06 2023 00:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2023 23:06 Sermokala wrote:On January 05 2023 14:44 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I meant 'are there specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated?' or is that a red herring?
The relations to Joe Biden are clear to me. It's also clear to me that he was aware that his son was selling influence (that he arguably didn't have) and independent of whether it was effective, it was obviously corrupt.
Then there's the drugs. Had he not had such a critical role in destroying millions of people's lives for the same (often lesser) crimes he knows his son was committing, it wouldn't be so damnable.
That he's done so little to remedially address what he now recognizes as the systematically cruel and horrific destruction of millions of people's lives he's uniquely personally responsible for and positioned to lead on remedying is damning enough on its own. However, seeing video/photos of Hunter Biden's crimes committed with impunity certainly amplified the "rules for thee but not for me" vibes. That is a bit of a red herring due to it never being released and also due to clear and obvious circumstances of the claimed way it was acquired. Second and third paragraphs no one I've ever seen has had a problem with hunter Biden being locked up. It's been a constant "if he did crimes he should go to jail". He's not committed these crime with impunity he has been investigated by the government and charges were rumored to be dropped after the election and they were just waiting for them not to effect the election. That hasn't happened yet which should point to the lack of actual evidence to them. You need to ask yourself how they got these videos photos and how they are being shown to you. The republicans have had it from before the presidential election, what have they done with this information? A simple "No there are not specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated, yes it is a red herring" would have been sufficient. Hunter Biden has obviously and self-admittedly committed crimes. He's enjoyed legal impunity for those crimes despite his father having been uniquely personally responsible for destroying millions of lives for the same and lessor crimes. That's not even up for debate, it's a matter of well documented fact. I don't know what people genuinely believe his no-show job was other than bribery, granting the people bribing Hunter Biden didn't seem to be getting their money's worth. Personally I believe (besides being factually wrong) the oblivious Joe/white house narrative is more shameful, but Joe knew about the no-show job and knew better than most people that his son was a nonsensical hire outside of it being bribery. Does any of that even really involve the laptop? We knew Hunter was an addict, and we knew he took some high-paid consulting-type jobs that he surely only got because of his last name. I’m not gonna look up Biden’s history on drug enforcement policy right now (I’ll take your word for it that it’s terrible) but sans laptop you could still indict him for hypocrisy if he favored mandatory minimums for the masses, but rehab and recovery for his son. Frankly the laptop has always seemed a lot like the Podesta emails stuff. It’s this whole JJ Abrams game of “look at this super secret box, don’t you think there’s probably some dark fucked-up stuff inside?” but the actual contents are pretty disappointing. One difference is, I can still name a couple things from the 2016 email hacks that *really were* pretty bad, but I haven’t even heard *allegations* from the laptop that seemed all that meaningful. IIRC there’s alleged evidence that Biden knew about Hunter’s consulting jobs, they were explicitly given to him as bribes, and Biden even demanded 10% of his son’s income. But what were these jobs, $500,000/year? That’s great money for a guy fresh out of rehab but it’s not much for bribe money in Washington DC, especially if you’re only taking 10%. Didn’t the Saudis just give Jared Kushner like $1billion or something? I guess my point is, I don’t think the subterfuge and innuendo of the laptop story are buying you anything here. Right-wingers mostly yell about it more for the fact it was *censored* than they do for the actual contents, and everything you’re complaining about here was public information already, no? Reasonable people everywhere are rightfully concerned when massive social media companies censor a legitimate story in the run up to an election. That's the only thing I think is interesting about the story anyway. I couldn't care less about the crack smoking and peddling influence with bullshit consulting jobs or whatever other mole hills the Republicans are trying to make a mountain from. But I certainly don't think the arguments that some are offering, e.g. "What about the Trump Kid's profiteering?" or "If there was wrongdoing how come there were no charges" are particularly good. Nobody here would bring the "Then why hasn't he been charged?" energy to defend any wrongdoing from a team MAGA guy. Are you still trying to claim that a story everyone knew about got supposedly censored? Are we going to have that argument again where it's not censorship because people still eventually heard about it? Or it's not censored if mirrored links exist? Some of the stuff that was censored were stolen nude pictures. It would have been a crime to not censor them. Guys who gives a flying fuck about the laptop. This is such a nothingburger its beyond ridiculous. Lets try to have a shred of good faith here. Its just an attempt at distraction from the blatent corruption by the Republicans and Trump administration in plain site. We actually had a sitting president having his children and son in law as large parts of the administration. When the fuck was the last time something like that happened or was deemed acceptable? Im glad Jared brought peace to the middle east and solved Covid. The best people. I think the bad faith arguments are people talking about chain-of-custody of the laptop or implying that Twitter's main motivation for suppression of the story had something to do with Hunter Biden's cock or that something isn't censored if it exists elsewhere on the internet or that if charges haven't been brought there must not be any wrongdoing. If the shoe were on the other foot and we were talking about a MAGA clansman's potential malfeasance none of this energy would be brought by the same people. It's 100% pure partisan hackery. Btw, I've already said the laptop itself is a nothingburger so no sense in beating that horse again. You can't just rock up to court with a hard drive and go "Yo, this is legit. Trust me." You have to prove that the drive is, unaltered, exactly how it was procured, from the source. This also includes legal go ahead to get it in the first place. Criminals have gotten off scott free because overzealous cops have improperly handled electronic evidence. It has to be preserved, unaltered, with absolute integrity. The possibility that anything was improperly acquired with means it's all useless. In a digital forensics class I had that only lasted 14 weeks the teacher said "preserve the evidence" over 100 times. It's like trying to use DNA evidence when tons of people know how to rewrite DNA.
It’s a bad faith argument because its not even being litigated. It’s a layer you are adding to it so that you can easily refute it.
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On January 06 2023 05:36 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2023 01:41 ChristianS wrote:On January 06 2023 00:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2023 23:06 Sermokala wrote:On January 05 2023 14:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2023 10:32 Sermokala wrote:On January 05 2023 06:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
Is there anything specific on the laptop that people are disputing being genuine? To answer that properly we would need access to know whats all on the laptop, but "genuine" do you mean "What the things that have been released about whats on "the laptop" means anything at all to Joe biden"? I meant 'are there specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated?' or is that a red herring? The relations to Joe Biden are clear to me. It's also clear to me that he was aware that his son was selling influence (that he arguably didn't have) and independent of whether it was effective, it was obviously corrupt. Then there's the drugs. Had he not had such a critical role in destroying millions of people's lives for the same (often lesser) crimes he knows his son was committing, it wouldn't be so damnable. That he's done so little to remedially address what he now recognizes as the systematically cruel and horrific destruction of millions of people's lives he's uniquely personally responsible for and positioned to lead on remedying is damning enough on its own. However, seeing video/photos of Hunter Biden's crimes committed with impunity certainly amplified the "rules for thee but not for me" vibes. That is a bit of a red herring due to it never being released and also due to clear and obvious circumstances of the claimed way it was acquired. Second and third paragraphs no one I've ever seen has had a problem with hunter Biden being locked up. It's been a constant "if he did crimes he should go to jail". He's not committed these crime with impunity he has been investigated by the government and charges were rumored to be dropped after the election and they were just waiting for them not to effect the election. That hasn't happened yet which should point to the lack of actual evidence to them. You need to ask yourself how they got these videos photos and how they are being shown to you. The republicans have had it from before the presidential election, what have they done with this information? A simple "No there are not specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated, yes it is a red herring" would have been sufficient. Hunter Biden has obviously and self-admittedly committed crimes. He's enjoyed legal impunity for those crimes despite his father having been uniquely personally responsible for destroying millions of lives for the same and lessor crimes. That's not even up for debate, it's a matter of well documented fact. I don't know what people genuinely believe his no-show job was other than bribery, granting the people bribing Hunter Biden didn't seem to be getting their money's worth. Personally I believe (besides being factually wrong) the oblivious Joe/white house narrative is more shameful, but Joe knew about the no-show job and knew better than most people that his son was a nonsensical hire outside of it being bribery. Does any of that even really involve the laptop? We knew Hunter was an addict, and we knew he took some high-paid consulting-type jobs that he surely only got because of his last name. I’m not gonna look up Biden’s history on drug enforcement policy right now (I’ll take your word for it that it’s terrible) but sans laptop you could still indict him for hypocrisy if he favored mandatory minimums for the masses, but rehab and recovery for his son. Frankly the laptop has always seemed a lot like the Podesta emails stuff. It’s this whole JJ Abrams game of “look at this super secret box, don’t you think there’s probably some dark fucked-up stuff inside?” but the actual contents are pretty disappointing. One difference is, I can still name a couple things from the 2016 email hacks that *really were* pretty bad, but I haven’t even heard *allegations* from the laptop that seemed all that meaningful. IIRC there’s alleged evidence that Biden knew about Hunter’s consulting jobs, they were explicitly given to him as bribes, and Biden even demanded 10% of his son’s income. But what were these jobs, $500,000/year? That’s great money for a guy fresh out of rehab but it’s not much for bribe money in Washington DC, especially if you’re only taking 10%. Didn’t the Saudis just give Jared Kushner like $1billion or something? I guess my point is, I don’t think the subterfuge and innuendo of the laptop story are buying you anything here. Right-wingers mostly yell about it more for the fact it was *censored* than they do for the actual contents, and everything you’re complaining about here was public information already, no? Reasonable people everywhere are rightfully concerned when massive social media companies censor a legitimate story in the run up to an election. That's the only thing I think is interesting about the story anyway. I couldn't care less about the crack smoking and peddling influence with bullshit consulting jobs or whatever other mole hills the Republicans are trying to make a mountain from. But I certainly don't think the arguments that some are offering, e.g. "What about the Trump Kid's profiteering?" or "If there was wrongdoing how come there were no charges" are particularly good. Nobody here would bring the "Then why hasn't he been charged?" energy to defend any wrongdoing from a team MAGA guy.
I think NY Post fucked up by reporting that story. It wasn’t to a reasonable journalistic standard, and their real journalists were refusing to put their names on it. *But* I think they were within their rights to do it. Nobody should be able to tell them they can’t report a story like that, unsound though it was.
I think Twitter fucked up blocking links to the story. Compared to current management that era’s moderation winds up looking pretty rosy, and there’s still an argument you could make for the decision, but blocking hyperlinks to another website is a really extreme measure, and it Streisand Effect’ed the story way further anyway. Even in the messy world of internet moderation I think it was pretty clearly the wrong call. *But* I think they were within their rights to do it. Nobody should be able to tell them how they’re allowed to moderate their website.
So what? What am I supposed to take away from this? It’s an interesting case study in both journalistic practice and internet moderation, but I don’t know what else there is to yell about. NY Post published a bad article, neither their first nor their last. Twitter made a bad moderation decision, neither their first nor their last. Twitter at least changed its mind pretty quickly, and anyway that whole landscape is completely different now in ways that are mostly worse, but certainly in different ways. So why dwell on the laptop thing?
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On January 06 2023 12:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2023 08:55 micronesia wrote:We really should spend more time looking into Donald Trump Junior's laptop and how the media has covered it up. Unlike Hunter Biden's laptop which everyone knew all about before and after the alleged censorship of politically inconvenient ideas, most of you probably haven't even heard about all the awful illegal stuff on Trump Junior's laptop which is currently in Hillary Clinton's possession. If you can’t find a deaf man to assert that he once heard the laptop I will find it very hard to believe that story.
I read on telegram that a deaf man working for George Soros heard Donald Trump Juniors voice as he returned that laptop to an Apple shop. He immediately took a Laptop from said Apple Store and sent it to Hillary Clinton.
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Two years ago, a mob of fascist MAGA supporters led a violent insurrection in an attempt to overthrow our presidential election results. They planted multiple explosives in Washington D.C., threatened to kill some of our nation's leaders, and stormed our U.S. Capitol building. They had been primed and gaslit, for months, by then-President Donald Trump and other Republican leaders, who had been intentionally lying to the followers about the election being rigged and that retaliatory actions speak louder than words. Thankfully, their armed mobilization ultimately failed, but it set a terrible precedent that legitimized sedition in the eyes of some Americans. Never forget.
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On January 06 2023 09:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2023 06:05 Sermokala wrote:On January 06 2023 04:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 06 2023 03:58 Gorsameth wrote:On January 06 2023 03:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 06 2023 01:41 ChristianS wrote:On January 06 2023 00:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2023 23:06 Sermokala wrote:On January 05 2023 14:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 05 2023 10:32 Sermokala wrote:
[quote]
To answer that properly we would need access to know whats all on the laptop, but "genuine" do you mean "What the things that have been released about whats on "the laptop" means anything at all to Joe biden"?
I meant 'are there specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated?' or is that a red herring? The relations to Joe Biden are clear to me. It's also clear to me that he was aware that his son was selling influence (that he arguably didn't have) and independent of whether it was effective, it was obviously corrupt. Then there's the drugs. Had he not had such a critical role in destroying millions of people's lives for the same (often lesser) crimes he knows his son was committing, it wouldn't be so damnable. That he's done so little to remedially address what he now recognizes as the systematically cruel and horrific destruction of millions of people's lives he's uniquely personally responsible for and positioned to lead on remedying is damning enough on its own. However, seeing video/photos of Hunter Biden's crimes committed with impunity certainly amplified the "rules for thee but not for me" vibes. That is a bit of a red herring due to it never being released and also due to clear and obvious circumstances of the claimed way it was acquired. Second and third paragraphs no one I've ever seen has had a problem with hunter Biden being locked up. It's been a constant "if he did crimes he should go to jail". He's not committed these crime with impunity he has been investigated by the government and charges were rumored to be dropped after the election and they were just waiting for them not to effect the election. That hasn't happened yet which should point to the lack of actual evidence to them. You need to ask yourself how they got these videos photos and how they are being shown to you. The republicans have had it from before the presidential election, what have they done with this information? A simple "No there are not specific files (photos, videos, emails, etc) that people believe are fake/manipulated, yes it is a red herring" would have been sufficient. Hunter Biden has obviously and self-admittedly committed crimes. He's enjoyed legal impunity for those crimes despite his father having been uniquely personally responsible for destroying millions of lives for the same and lessor crimes. That's not even up for debate, it's a matter of well documented fact. I don't know what people genuinely believe his no-show job was other than bribery, granting the people bribing Hunter Biden didn't seem to be getting their money's worth. Personally I believe (besides being factually wrong) the oblivious Joe/white house narrative is more shameful, but Joe knew about the no-show job and knew better than most people that his son was a nonsensical hire outside of it being bribery. Does any of that even really involve the laptop? We knew Hunter was an addict, and we knew he took some high-paid consulting-type jobs that he surely only got because of his last name. I’m not gonna look up Biden’s history on drug enforcement policy right now (I’ll take your word for it that it’s terrible) but sans laptop you could still indict him for hypocrisy if he favored mandatory minimums for the masses, but rehab and recovery for his son. Frankly the laptop has always seemed a lot like the Podesta emails stuff. It’s this whole JJ Abrams game of “look at this super secret box, don’t you think there’s probably some dark fucked-up stuff inside?” but the actual contents are pretty disappointing. One difference is, I can still name a couple things from the 2016 email hacks that *really were* pretty bad, but I haven’t even heard *allegations* from the laptop that seemed all that meaningful. IIRC there’s alleged evidence that Biden knew about Hunter’s consulting jobs, they were explicitly given to him as bribes, and Biden even demanded 10% of his son’s income. But what were these jobs, $500,000/year? That’s great money for a guy fresh out of rehab but it’s not much for bribe money in Washington DC, especially if you’re only taking 10%. Didn’t the Saudis just give Jared Kushner like $1billion or something? I guess my point is, I don’t think the subterfuge and innuendo of the laptop story are buying you anything here. Right-wingers mostly yell about it more for the fact it was *censored* than they do for the actual contents, and everything you’re complaining about here was public information already, no? None of it is dependent on the contents of the laptop, though there's arguably some "involvement". I don't think the subterfuge or innuendo from Republicans is necessary to recognize that Joe Biden knew about the job when Hunter took it, knew he was unqualified, and knew why he was getting it anyway. Yet he and Hunter pretended Burisma needed Hunter Biden's professional help to keep them on the straight and narrow as if that isn't laughable on its face. Beyond getting clarity on whether people disputed that the laptop contents that have been released were authentically from/of Hunter Biden (they don't afaict) my other point was that regardless of what is or isn't ultimately shown in Hunter's data, Joe Biden (Hunter too for whatever that matters) is plenty deplorable based on his own actions/policy (historical and contemporary). No one should need an investigation into the laptop to see that both parties and every president is corrupted by the influence of money in US politics. Whether Joe Biden is provably in a court of law guilty of so egregiously stepping outside of normally accepted US political corruption that it would net a conviction in US criminal court (as well as the habitual/reflexive Trump whataboutism) misses the forest for the trees imo. Right but not your point is not "Hunter Biden laptop bad" but simply "US politics is shit and full of corruption". And you should know by now that this forum generally agrees with that statement. To the degree that's true that's why the discussion of stuff like chain of custody is a red herring. People know Biden and his party are corrupted by money, that lobbying/fundraising in the US is basically legalized bribery by another name, that nepotism is par for the course and so on. Regardless of what is or isn't shown by Hunter's files, no one is going to seriously argue that Joe Biden isn't a part of the normalized corruption that makes the worst version of the Burisma story look insignificant by comparison. How is it a red herring? Unless you have legitimate evidence for something you cannot state something is a fact. The laptop is not legitimate evidence. Going for a "both sides" argument is just silly. All you do with it is legitimize the very things you're complaining about so much. Because no one is going to seriously argue that Joe Biden isn't a part of the normalized US corruption (it's fair to argue it's capitalists doing capitalism imo) that makes the worst version of the Burisma story look insignificant by comparison. It's not a "both sides" argument other than I obviously don't think this is only a problem with Democrats. The chronic whataboutism regarding Republicans isn't wrong about their rampant improprieties and legalized corruption.
It is a both sides argument. You don't find any difference between the sides you see them both as an equal part of the same corruption system. No one here is arguing that he isn't corrupt you're the one dismissing the story because you think corruption is just normal and both sides do it.
This is the shit that really disappoints me with you. You repeatedly throw away your voice and opinion by ignoring any nuance of a situation to your overall message of revolution being our only salvation. You have a perspective that's valuable and yet you continuously refuse to share it because you hold yourself so far above any current event. It just comes off as condesending and demeaning to everyone that's genuinely interested in us politics and doesn't want to hear for the thousandths time that nilhism about none of it mattering.
Do you really want to participate in a discussion about us politics or are you just wasteing all of our time?
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EPT
