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On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.
The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.
“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”
Manchin supported Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, voted for now-embattled EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and even backed the president’s hard-line immigration proposal.
“I’m with him sometimes more than other Republican senators are with him,” Manchin said. www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: ![[image loading]](https://morningconsult.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/180404_states_fullwidth.png) This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership.
You know there is no way to kick him out, right? He picks which party he is. They can no more stop him from being a Democrat than the GOP could stop Trump from running as a Republican.
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On June 07 2018 11:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.
The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.
“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”
Manchin supported Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, voted for now-embattled EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and even backed the president’s hard-line immigration proposal.
“I’m with him sometimes more than other Republican senators are with him,” Manchin said. www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. You know there is no way to kick him out, right? He picks which party he is. They can no more stop him from being a Democrat than the GOP could stop Trump from running as a Republican.
The party has made it quite clear it's comfortable pushing people out of races, but that's not my point. You know committee placement is chosen by party members right? So the Democrat who backs Pruitt and Trump "more than some Republicans", sitting on the Committee of Energy and Natural Resources, is someone the Democratic (*the* "left" party) puts there.
That's a choice they make. It's the wrong one imo.
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On June 07 2018 03:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:the economic boom lasted 7+ years. it went from very bad to very good from 1980 to 1984. it was a big change. the 1990 recession was not as bad as the recession that occurred at the end of Carter's presidency. Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 03:16 zlefin wrote:On June 07 2018 03:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 07 2018 03:09 zlefin wrote:On June 07 2018 03:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 07 2018 03:00 zlefin wrote:
not that fond of reagan myself. "a time for choosing" is 1 of the greatest political speeches i've ever heard. at the end of that thing i was like "hand me a gun and tell me which commie to shoot first". Pierre Trudeau's "Just watch me" was better only because it was ad lib. good speeches are nice; but they're fairly low in import for how I rank politicians; and even for how much I like them. i.e. no amount of nice speeches makes up for substantive policy problems. as to your edit add: I'm pretty sure he didn't turn the economy around; at least nowhere near the extent your description seems to imply. in 1980 the USA was deep into a huge and brutal recession. in 1988 the USA has 6 consecutives years of massive growth. that is why in 1984 he won so big. You've just proven you don't understand how causation works, and hence your points about reagan have no credibility  you're merely an exemplar of a fact that's been massively documented in the political science literature: presidents are given FAR more blame/credit for the economy than is actually warranted for the limited amount of influence they actually have. in 1984, the average american viewed Reagan is one of the important causal factors of the improvement in the economy from 1980 to 1984. This along with other good things Reagan did resulted in a massive 1984 landslide victory. during the 1979 election campaign Reagan went on and on about how he'd improve the economy.
Did Reagan do much to earn that reputation?
Fed policy was dramatic in that era - interest rates peaked at ~19% then fell to ~8.5% after the recession hit. Yes, the economy expanded after the recession (as it does).
Wage growth was absolutely horrid during Reagan's term..
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5930 Posts
On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.
The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.
“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”
Manchin supported Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, voted for now-embattled EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and even backed the president’s hard-line immigration proposal.
“I’m with him sometimes more than other Republican senators are with him,” Manchin said. www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership.
I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent.
It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level.
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On June 07 2018 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.
The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.
“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”
Manchin supported Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, voted for now-embattled EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and even backed the president’s hard-line immigration proposal.
“I’m with him sometimes more than other Republican senators are with him,” Manchin said. www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent. It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level.
Why? Is what I'm asking. If he wants to keep the D and he's the better candidate fine, but he shouldn't' be on committees representing the party, especially on something like "Energy".
What do Democrats get out of keeping him there?
It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level.
Of course they would lol.
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On June 07 2018 13:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.
The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.
“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”
Manchin supported Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, voted for now-embattled EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and even backed the president’s hard-line immigration proposal.
“I’m with him sometimes more than other Republican senators are with him,” Manchin said. www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent. It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Why? Is what I'm asking. If he wants to keep the D and he's the better candidate fine, but he shouldn't' be on committees representing the party, especially on something like "Energy". What do Democrats get out of keeping him there? Show nested quote +It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Of course they would lol.
Tell that to Ted Cruz hehe.
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On June 07 2018 13:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.
The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.
“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”
Manchin supported Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, voted for now-embattled EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and even backed the president’s hard-line immigration proposal.
“I’m with him sometimes more than other Republican senators are with him,” Manchin said. www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent. It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Why? Is what I'm asking. If he wants to keep the D and he's the better candidate fine, but he shouldn't' be on committees representing the party, especially on something like "Energy". What do Democrats get out of keeping him there? Show nested quote +It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Of course they would lol.
I assume they get his vote on matters of import elsewhere on the agenda?
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On June 07 2018 17:04 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 13:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.
The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.
“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”
Manchin supported Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, voted for now-embattled EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and even backed the president’s hard-line immigration proposal.
“I’m with him sometimes more than other Republican senators are with him,” Manchin said. www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent. It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Why? Is what I'm asking. If he wants to keep the D and he's the better candidate fine, but he shouldn't' be on committees representing the party, especially on something like "Energy". What do Democrats get out of keeping him there? It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Of course they would lol. I assume they get his vote on matters of import elsewhere on the agenda?
Which is why I'm trying to figure out what those are. Not having much luck though. I think that might just be something people repeat without thinking about.
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On June 07 2018 17:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 17:04 iamthedave wrote:On June 07 2018 13:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.
The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.
“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”
Manchin supported Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, voted for now-embattled EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and even backed the president’s hard-line immigration proposal.
“I’m with him sometimes more than other Republican senators are with him,” Manchin said. www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent. It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Why? Is what I'm asking. If he wants to keep the D and he's the better candidate fine, but he shouldn't' be on committees representing the party, especially on something like "Energy". What do Democrats get out of keeping him there? It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Of course they would lol. I assume they get his vote on matters of import elsewhere on the agenda? Which is why I'm trying to figure out what those are. Not having much luck though. I think that might just be something people repeat without thinking about.
How do you not have luck with the first Google result for "Joe Manchin Voting Record"? I thought this was all public information.
And yeah, first result. First page shows him voting with Democrats against healthcare repeal and tax cut bills, which were like the only two big bills of last year?
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On June 07 2018 18:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 17:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 17:04 iamthedave wrote:On June 07 2018 13:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. [quote] www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent. It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Why? Is what I'm asking. If he wants to keep the D and he's the better candidate fine, but he shouldn't' be on committees representing the party, especially on something like "Energy". What do Democrats get out of keeping him there? It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Of course they would lol. I assume they get his vote on matters of import elsewhere on the agenda? Which is why I'm trying to figure out what those are. Not having much luck though. I think that might just be something people repeat without thinking about. How do you not have luck with the first Google result for "Joe Manchin Voting Record"? I thought this was all public information. And yeah, first result. First page shows him voting with Democrats against healthcare repeal and tax cut bills, which were like the only two big bills of last year?
I'm familiar with the votes. I'm not clear what you're trying to say though? Those votes are supposed to be worth the ones I mentioned?
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I have no stake for or against Reagan - but isn't it consensual that cutting tax rates and expanding the economy faster than usual is a recipe for later economic recession ? I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing, you've got to balance what you achieve and what you lose, but you can definitely blame a 90's economic recession on reckless '81-to-'89 economic policies.
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On June 07 2018 18:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 18:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 07 2018 17:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 17:04 iamthedave wrote:On June 07 2018 13:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent. It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Why? Is what I'm asking. If he wants to keep the D and he's the better candidate fine, but he shouldn't' be on committees representing the party, especially on something like "Energy". What do Democrats get out of keeping him there? It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Of course they would lol. I assume they get his vote on matters of import elsewhere on the agenda? Which is why I'm trying to figure out what those are. Not having much luck though. I think that might just be something people repeat without thinking about. How do you not have luck with the first Google result for "Joe Manchin Voting Record"? I thought this was all public information. And yeah, first result. First page shows him voting with Democrats against healthcare repeal and tax cut bills, which were like the only two big bills of last year? I'm familiar with the votes. I'm not clear what you're trying to say though? Those votes are supposed to be worth the ones I mentioned?
If the Dems don't back him and then they lose the seat to a Republican who will always vote against them, then yes.
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On June 07 2018 19:55 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 18:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 18:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 07 2018 17:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 17:04 iamthedave wrote:On June 07 2018 13:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'.
He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww
Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020?
We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent. It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Why? Is what I'm asking. If he wants to keep the D and he's the better candidate fine, but he shouldn't' be on committees representing the party, especially on something like "Energy". What do Democrats get out of keeping him there? It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Of course they would lol. I assume they get his vote on matters of import elsewhere on the agenda? Which is why I'm trying to figure out what those are. Not having much luck though. I think that might just be something people repeat without thinking about. How do you not have luck with the first Google result for "Joe Manchin Voting Record"? I thought this was all public information. And yeah, first result. First page shows him voting with Democrats against healthcare repeal and tax cut bills, which were like the only two big bills of last year? I'm familiar with the votes. I'm not clear what you're trying to say though? Those votes are supposed to be worth the ones I mentioned? If the Dems don't back him and then they lose the seat to a Republican who will always vote against them, then yes.
What difference would that have made? Keeping in mind I'm familiar with the already mentioned votes?
+ Show Spoiler +EDIT: I should add there's enough people left of Joe Manchin to beat any Republican as well. Part of the distortion people don't talk about in West Virginia is Hillary did exceptionally bad as much as Trump did well. She got less than 2/3 of the votes Obama did in 08 in WV (did worse than he did in 2012 too). So she didn't just underperform (as she did around the country), she underperformed in WV compared to much of the rest of the country.
She did exceptionally bad in WV in the 2016 Presidential campaign. She didn't even get as many votes as she did in the 2008 WV Democratic primary.
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5930 Posts
On June 07 2018 20:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 19:55 Gahlo wrote:On June 07 2018 18:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 18:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 07 2018 17:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 17:04 iamthedave wrote:On June 07 2018 13:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:[quote] We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent. It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Why? Is what I'm asking. If he wants to keep the D and he's the better candidate fine, but he shouldn't' be on committees representing the party, especially on something like "Energy". What do Democrats get out of keeping him there? It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Of course they would lol. I assume they get his vote on matters of import elsewhere on the agenda? Which is why I'm trying to figure out what those are. Not having much luck though. I think that might just be something people repeat without thinking about. How do you not have luck with the first Google result for "Joe Manchin Voting Record"? I thought this was all public information. And yeah, first result. First page shows him voting with Democrats against healthcare repeal and tax cut bills, which were like the only two big bills of last year? I'm familiar with the votes. I'm not clear what you're trying to say though? Those votes are supposed to be worth the ones I mentioned? If the Dems don't back him and then they lose the seat to a Republican who will always vote against them, then yes. What difference would that have made? Keeping in mind I'm familiar with the already mentioned votes.
For one, ACA would have straight up died when the Republicans first tried to repeal it if Manchin wasn't around. It only got beaten back because McCain took one for the team and crossed the floor. You can argue that it should have died because the ACA was deeply flawed and it dying is good for accelerationism purposes but we're not really arguing that right now. His vote was crucial to keep the ACA around.
Again. I don't disagree with you, Manchin is horrible but your system of government is horribly inflexible and the Democrats feel like they have to compromise with fossil fuel state Democrats like Heitkamp and Manchin to maximize any chance of obtaining or maintaining a majority. This isn't getting any easier with demographic shifts and brain drains from these states.
Though, you have a political class who are all right wing as heck and things are going to continue to get worse in the USA. I dunno how you break a stranglehold where both parties are producing candidates to the right of a lot of our right wing candidates both socially and economically. Even Bernie Sanders has a nationalist streak like his support for tarrifs that seem awfully mercantile when described.
Speaking of economic stances, its pretty concerning that the Democrats might legitimately be to the economic right of some Republicans right now. Republican methods of stimulating the economy with tax cuts and military spending are horribly inefficient and disproportionately benefit the already wealthy but its arguably preferable than zero sum spending policies that Pelosi is suggesting with paygo.
Regarding your edit, Clinton got slammed in West Virginia as she was directly tied to Obama and his anti-coal policies. She also wasn't a strongman like Obama could be or what Trump appears to be, something that is appealing to the "political moderate".
You could primary him but the last person who did got body slammed 70-30 with no one relevant in the state endorsing her. If you're not selling your soul for coal, you're not winning.
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On June 07 2018 20:55 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 20:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 19:55 Gahlo wrote:On June 07 2018 18:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 18:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 07 2018 17:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 17:04 iamthedave wrote:On June 07 2018 13:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent. It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Why? Is what I'm asking. If he wants to keep the D and he's the better candidate fine, but he shouldn't' be on committees representing the party, especially on something like "Energy". What do Democrats get out of keeping him there? It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Of course they would lol. I assume they get his vote on matters of import elsewhere on the agenda? Which is why I'm trying to figure out what those are. Not having much luck though. I think that might just be something people repeat without thinking about. How do you not have luck with the first Google result for "Joe Manchin Voting Record"? I thought this was all public information. And yeah, first result. First page shows him voting with Democrats against healthcare repeal and tax cut bills, which were like the only two big bills of last year? I'm familiar with the votes. I'm not clear what you're trying to say though? Those votes are supposed to be worth the ones I mentioned? If the Dems don't back him and then they lose the seat to a Republican who will always vote against them, then yes. What difference would that have made? Keeping in mind I'm familiar with the already mentioned votes. For one, ACA would have straight up died when the Republicans first tried to repeal it if Manchin wasn't around. It only got beaten back because McCain took one for the team and crossed the floor. You can argue that it should have died because the ACA was deeply flawed and it dying is good for accelerationism purposes but we're not really arguing that right now. His vote was crucial to keep the ACA around. Again. I don't disagree with you, Manchin is horrible but your system of government is horribly inflexible and the Democrats feel like they have to compromise with fossil fuel state Democrats like Heitkamp and Manchin to maximize any chance of obtaining or maintaining a majority. This isn't getting any easier with demographic shifts and brain drains from these states. Though, you have a political class who are all right wing as heck and things are going to continue to get worse in the USA. I dunno how you break a stranglehold where both parties are producing candidates to the right of a lot of our right wing candidates both socially and economically. Even Bernie Sanders has a nationalist streak like his support for tarrifs that seem awfully mercantile when described. Speaking of economic stances, its pretty concerning that the Democrats might legitimately be to the economic right of some Republicans right now. Republican methods of stimulating the economy with tax cuts and military spending are horribly inefficient and disproportionately benefit the already wealthy but its arguably preferable than zero sum spending policies that Pelosi is suggesting with paygo. Regarding your edit, Clinton got slammed in West Virginia as she was directly tied to Obama and his anti-coal policies. She also wasn't a strongman like Obama could be or what Trump appears to be, something that is appealing to the "political moderate". You could primary him but the last person who did got body slammed 70-30 with no one relevant in the state endorsing her. If you're not selling your soul for coal, you're not winning.
How was his vote crucial to protect ACA? Or how would it have 'straight up died' without him rather?
As to his challenger, that's actually an incredible performance for someone who was unknown and completely unsupported by Democrats vs Manchin, who might endorse Trump and did get party support.
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On June 07 2018 20:55 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 20:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 19:55 Gahlo wrote:On June 07 2018 18:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 18:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 07 2018 17:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 17:04 iamthedave wrote:On June 07 2018 13:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. I agree they should boot these guys out but I'm literally giving you the reason why the Democrats feel that they need to compromise with these red state senators stuck in places like North Dakota and Missouri. For the purposes of narrow and tight races, like a very tight general election, they clearly feel that senate seat is better as a Democrat and not a Republican or an Independent. It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Why? Is what I'm asking. If he wants to keep the D and he's the better candidate fine, but he shouldn't' be on committees representing the party, especially on something like "Energy". What do Democrats get out of keeping him there? It doesn't help that most people in Congress seem to like the guy on a personal level. Of course they would lol. I assume they get his vote on matters of import elsewhere on the agenda? Which is why I'm trying to figure out what those are. Not having much luck though. I think that might just be something people repeat without thinking about. How do you not have luck with the first Google result for "Joe Manchin Voting Record"? I thought this was all public information. And yeah, first result. First page shows him voting with Democrats against healthcare repeal and tax cut bills, which were like the only two big bills of last year? I'm familiar with the votes. I'm not clear what you're trying to say though? Those votes are supposed to be worth the ones I mentioned? If the Dems don't back him and then they lose the seat to a Republican who will always vote against them, then yes. What difference would that have made? Keeping in mind I'm familiar with the already mentioned votes. For one, ACA would have straight up died when the Republicans first tried to repeal it if Manchin wasn't around. It only got beaten back because McCain took one for the team and crossed the floor. You can argue that it should have died because the ACA was deeply flawed and it dying is good for accelerationism purposes but we're not really arguing that right now. His vote was crucial to keep the ACA around. Again. I don't disagree with you, Manchin is horrible but your system of government is horribly inflexible and the Democrats feel like they have to compromise with fossil fuel state Democrats like Heitkamp and Manchin to maximize any chance of obtaining or maintaining a majority. This isn't getting any easier with demographic shifts and brain drains from these states. Though, you have a political class who are all right wing as heck and things are going to continue to get worse in the USA. I dunno how you break a stranglehold where both parties are producing candidates to the right of a lot of our right wing candidates both socially and economically. Even Bernie Sanders has a nationalist streak like his support for tarrifs that seem awfully mercantile when described.
It still amuses me when America gets in a tizzy about 'communist policies promoted by Democrats'. I worry that if you were to transpose some of those pundits into the UK or a european political system they'd suffer some sort of heart attack from shock after being exposed to actual left wing politics instead of the lumbering frankenstein's monster version the US has.
And it doesn't amuse me at all that Republicans think their version of right wing politics is normal, instead of the very clearly dangerous fact-free demagoguery it occasionally is and is on the verge of becoming wholesale.
You need someone to drag the US political spectrum to the left, even if by only a few ticks. It's extremely unhealthy in its current state. Like in the UK we had David Cameron drag the Tories a few inches to the left, which we desperately needed to avoid us becoming more like the US, as we definitely were with Nigel Farage leading the charge.
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On June 07 2018 11:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 11:38 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.
The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.
“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”
Manchin supported Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, voted for now-embattled EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and even backed the president’s hard-line immigration proposal.
“I’m with him sometimes more than other Republican senators are with him,” Manchin said. www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. You know there is no way to kick him out, right? He picks which party he is. They can no more stop him from being a Democrat than the GOP could stop Trump from running as a Republican. The party has made it quite clear it's comfortable pushing people out of races, but that's not my point. You know committee placement is chosen by party members right? So the Democrat who backs Pruitt and Trump "more than some Republicans", sitting on the Committee of Energy and Natural Resources, is someone the Democratic (*the* "left" party) puts there. That's a choice they make. It's the wrong one imo.
They do not always succeed in removing people. They failed this primary cycle in several races. In one the state party picked a different candidate than the national party. The national party lost. They cannot control who is in the party.
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On June 07 2018 22:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 11:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 11:38 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.
The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.
“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”
Manchin supported Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, voted for now-embattled EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and even backed the president’s hard-line immigration proposal.
“I’m with him sometimes more than other Republican senators are with him,” Manchin said. www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. You know there is no way to kick him out, right? He picks which party he is. They can no more stop him from being a Democrat than the GOP could stop Trump from running as a Republican. The party has made it quite clear it's comfortable pushing people out of races, but that's not my point. You know committee placement is chosen by party members right? So the Democrat who backs Pruitt and Trump "more than some Republicans", sitting on the Committee of Energy and Natural Resources, is someone the Democratic (*the* "left" party) puts there. That's a choice they make. It's the wrong one imo. They do not always succeed in removing people. They failed this primary cycle in several races. In one the state party picked a different candidate than the national party. The national party lost. They cannot control who is in the party.
You quoted me but didn't really address anything I said? Other than agree with me that they have no problem pressuring people out of primary races or supporting a particular candidate.
Is that what you intended?
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On June 07 2018 22:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 22:07 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2018 11:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 11:38 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.
The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.
“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”
Manchin supported Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, voted for now-embattled EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and even backed the president’s hard-line immigration proposal.
“I’m with him sometimes more than other Republican senators are with him,” Manchin said. www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. You know there is no way to kick him out, right? He picks which party he is. They can no more stop him from being a Democrat than the GOP could stop Trump from running as a Republican. The party has made it quite clear it's comfortable pushing people out of races, but that's not my point. You know committee placement is chosen by party members right? So the Democrat who backs Pruitt and Trump "more than some Republicans", sitting on the Committee of Energy and Natural Resources, is someone the Democratic (*the* "left" party) puts there. That's a choice they make. It's the wrong one imo. They do not always succeed in removing people. They failed this primary cycle in several races. In one the state party picked a different candidate than the national party. The national party lost. They cannot control who is in the party. You quoted me but didn't really address anything I said? Other than agree with me that they have no problem pressuring people out of primary races or supporting a particular candidate. Is that what you intended?
Yeah, they have no problem trying to doing. It doesn’t mean they succeed every time. Are you proposing that the Democrats could kick him out of the party easily? That they could gather enough support in both the W.V. Democratic party and the National party to make that effort?
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On June 07 2018 22:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2018 22:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 22:07 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2018 11:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 11:38 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2018 11:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:24 Womwomwom wrote:On June 07 2018 08:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2018 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:For those on twitter you know that every tweet about "Bernie is ____ Democratic party" pretty much always has the "Bernie isn't a Democrat" line in the replies. I think Democrats still don't understand Bernie being "not a Democrat" is one of his most attractive superficial features. Why does it make him a more attractive candidate? Well, Joe here, *is* a Democrat. [quote] www.politico.com To be fair, "if his policies are the best" holds true for everyone else, too. If I thought Trump would do a better job than ____, I would vote for Trump. Which would matter if he hadn't already thought Gina "torturer" Haspel, Scott Pruitt, and Trump's immigration proposal were 'the best' or even 'acceptable'. He's openly saying he's a bigger Trump supporter than some Republicans,and he might endorse him for 2020. ww Are you unsure if you'll vote for Trump in 2020? We've been through this. Joe Manchin is garbage but I'm convinced that's the what the demography of West Virginia wants from their elected congressmen right now. No, I don't think Democrats should tolerate him but I imagine they tolerate him because he'll back them when push comes to shove with regards to shit like the ACA. For people in West Virginia, Haspel and immigration proposals are meaningless to mild positives while Pruitt's gutting of the EPA is seen as a huge boon. They don't want renewables or natural gas to succeed, that's their primary concern and that's what they think they're getting from this Whitehouse. This isn't the Great Plains where populism with an agrarian socialist slant still seems to work, West Virginia is a state that's completely built around coal and the pride of coal mining. Any proposal that suggests elimination or the winding back of coal production, like providing retraining into new industries, is seen as an affront to their identity. Mining towns in Australia are no different, I've worked in one for a few years and the macho pride and identity these towns build around mining is similar to what I see from West Virginia. Courtesy of Morning Consult, I've pretty sure running an anti-Trump campaign in West Virginia is going to get you killed: This is the the usual go to explanation, but why does he have to be a Democrat then? If he's what WV wants, let WV have him, but the 'left' party doesn't need people pondering on endorsing Trump in 2020 in leadership. You know there is no way to kick him out, right? He picks which party he is. They can no more stop him from being a Democrat than the GOP could stop Trump from running as a Republican. The party has made it quite clear it's comfortable pushing people out of races, but that's not my point. You know committee placement is chosen by party members right? So the Democrat who backs Pruitt and Trump "more than some Republicans", sitting on the Committee of Energy and Natural Resources, is someone the Democratic (*the* "left" party) puts there. That's a choice they make. It's the wrong one imo. They do not always succeed in removing people. They failed this primary cycle in several races. In one the state party picked a different candidate than the national party. The national party lost. They cannot control who is in the party. You quoted me but didn't really address anything I said? Other than agree with me that they have no problem pressuring people out of primary races or supporting a particular candidate. Is that what you intended? Yeah, they have no problem trying to doing. It doesn’t mean they succeed every time. Are you proposing that the Democrats could kick him out of the party easily? That they could gather enough support in both the W.V. Democratic party and the National party to make that effort?
It was literally in the post you quoted.
You know committee placement is chosen by party members right? So the Democrat who backs Pruitt and Trump "more than some Republicans", sitting on the Committee of Energy and Natural Resources, is someone the Democratic (*the* "left" party) puts there.
That's a choice they make. It's the wrong one imo.
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EPT
