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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2604

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

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If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
September 04 2020 20:26 GMT
#52061
--- Nuked ---
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 04 2020 21:06 GMT
#52062
On September 05 2020 03:55 Fleetfeet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2020 03:51 IgnE wrote:
On September 05 2020 03:47 Fleetfeet wrote:
On September 05 2020 02:28 IgnE wrote:
On September 05 2020 02:23 Mohdoo wrote:
On September 05 2020 02:21 IgnE wrote:


I feel like you likely have a fundamental reverence for buildings. Can you please elaborate on why you see protection of these buildings as so critically important?



You also have a reverence for at least certain buildings. This framing is bad faith. If a mob came to your house and 1% of the mob started to light your house on fire I am sure you would feel justified in tear gassing the whole lot. Shelter, in general, is viewed as a "human right" by almost the entirety of the left. So you should be more specific: "Why do you think you should protect a police building by gassing an entire mob when only 1% of that mob is actually trying to burn it down?"



I am assuming this was still clear to you, but you are right that I could stand to be more specific. I'll edit. Thank you!


If a protest assembled outside the Washington Monument in DC and 5 people in the mob attempted to blow it up with a detonated charge at the base would the police be justified in teargassing and dispersing the whole crowd?


Who/what organisation organized the protest? What are they protesting? Were the police allowed to set up to contain and protect certain areas? If so, how were people able to get to the base of the monument and plant charges? If not, why were the police not allowed to set up to protect certain areas?

The hypothetical where 5 people are using a conveniently-placed protest to perform an act of intentional domestic terrorism is quite removed from what we're seeing reported, imo. In that light, I don't see the point of the hypothetical, and my response to it would be "Don't teargas, arrest the people you're apparently watching put charges on an historic monument."


Well we might as well ask why the police don't just arrest the "bad apples" who are causing destruction in an otherwise peaceful protest. I of course agree with your deflationary reduction of the hypothetical in situations where it is practicable, but so does Danglars.


This is not at all what your hypothetical addressed. Unless context changes the thing, what you described was domestic terrorists not part of the protest using the protest as cover for their terrorism. There's a bunch that could be clarified to end up in this conveniently inconvenient scenario, but it's so detached from what we're seeing I don't understand the point of engaging the hypothetical in the first place.

Danglars mentions catch-and-release being an ineffective way of approaching some of the 'bad apples' in Portland protests, and I would generally agree.


Oh wow, you are ready to describe some protesters destroying a building as terrorism. Trump would love it.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24771 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-09-04 21:10:04
September 04 2020 21:09 GMT
#52063
Could you explain what the difference is between domestic terrorists and protesters who destroy buildings in order to try to effect change contributing towards social justice? I'm having a bit of difficulty... the main thing I can think of is that the terrorists, we disagree with what they are fighting for...

edit: another possible explanation is that the terrorists demonstrate disregard for innocent uninvolved life whereas protesters usually do not
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
September 04 2020 21:24 GMT
#52064
On September 05 2020 06:09 micronesia wrote:
Could you explain what the difference is between domestic terrorists and protesters who destroy buildings in order to try to effect change contributing towards social justice? I'm having a bit of difficulty... the main thing I can think of is that the terrorists, we disagree with what they are fighting for...

edit: another possible explanation is that the terrorists demonstrate disregard for innocent uninvolved life whereas protesters usually do not


I think this is an oversimplification when simplifying doesn't gain you anything. As you pointed out in your edit, there are a variety of ways the nuance of the situations drastically change the ethics.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24771 Posts
September 04 2020 21:25 GMT
#52065
In that case, is it okay to criticize people for referring to certain more severe protester behaviors as "domestic terror" when simplifying doesn't gain you anything? I think you (in the general sense) can't have it both ways in this discussion.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
September 04 2020 21:32 GMT
#52066
--- Nuked ---
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
September 04 2020 21:45 GMT
#52067
On September 05 2020 06:25 micronesia wrote:
In that case, is it okay to criticize people for referring to certain more severe protester behaviors as "domestic terror" when simplifying doesn't gain you anything? I think you (in the general sense) can't have it both ways in this discussion.


From what I understand about Portland anarchists (lived here a long time and my friend has been very active in recording as much of the protests from within as possible), they were just waiting for an opportunity to light shit on fire. Protesters have little anti-fire teams to try prevent their shit. While I am sure there are some number of people who are violent BLM protesters, the vast majority of these crazies are people who would have done this for some other cover, which in my eyes takes away the "with intention to influence policy or politics" or whatever.

The problem you are having is you are trying to make some determination about the composition of the protests/riots without any actual way to do that. The anarchists have dumb little meetings and talk about being sovereign citizens and whatnot. So when there's an anti-cop protest, it is not slightly surprising that they showed up.

When you see a bunch of people walking around at night with shaky cameras, tear gas and a bunch of other wild shit, its hard to be like: "Ok so...1...2...5...7 anarchists annnnnd.....50...70 protesters...ok let me write this down..."

As I see it, you simply don't have that capability and that is ok. You basically can't without physically being there. Think about this: When the police tear gas protesters because of the arsonists, do you think the peaceful protesters run away? Not a chance. They are there to fight for what they believe in and they will push through the pain until they can't. Those people probably get kinda salty about being tear gassed, so they yell back, and suddenly now you are seeing a bunch of yelling, angry people with some molotov cocktails mixed in. Wow, suddenly it looks like 200 arsonists raging against capitalism. In reality, 2 people threw a molotov and the other people just yelled.

There is a reason the vast majority of Portland residents side with the protesters. You should wonder why the people having their city supposedly destroyed side so strongly with protesters. That's why there was a huge presence of moms at one point to try to get the feds to fuck off:

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26765 Posts
September 04 2020 21:59 GMT
#52068
On September 05 2020 06:45 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2020 06:25 micronesia wrote:
In that case, is it okay to criticize people for referring to certain more severe protester behaviors as "domestic terror" when simplifying doesn't gain you anything? I think you (in the general sense) can't have it both ways in this discussion.


From what I understand about Portland anarchists (lived here a long time and my friend has been very active in recording as much of the protests from within as possible), they were just waiting for an opportunity to light shit on fire. Protesters have little anti-fire teams to try prevent their shit. While I am sure there are some number of people who are violent BLM protesters, the vast majority of these crazies are people who would have done this for some other cover, which in my eyes takes away the "with intention to influence policy or politics" or whatever.

The problem you are having is you are trying to make some determination about the composition of the protests/riots without any actual way to do that. The anarchists have dumb little meetings and talk about being sovereign citizens and whatnot. So when there's an anti-cop protest, it is not slightly surprising that they showed up.

When you see a bunch of people walking around at night with shaky cameras, tear gas and a bunch of other wild shit, its hard to be like: "Ok so...1...2...5...7 anarchists annnnnd.....50...70 protesters...ok let me write this down..."

As I see it, you simply don't have that capability and that is ok. You basically can't without physically being there. Think about this: When the police tear gas protesters because of the arsonists, do you think the peaceful protesters run away? Not a chance. They are there to fight for what they believe in and they will push through the pain until they can't. Those people probably get kinda salty about being tear gassed, so they yell back, and suddenly now you are seeing a bunch of yelling, angry people with some molotov cocktails mixed in. Wow, suddenly it looks like 200 arsonists raging against capitalism. In reality, 2 people threw a molotov and the other people just yelled.

There is a reason the vast majority of Portland residents side with the protesters. You should wonder why the people having their city supposedly destroyed side so strongly with protesters. That's why there was a huge presence of moms at one point to try to get the feds to fuck off:

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]

You’re a Portlander right? Or whatever the term is. Can be hard to guess, as an actual denizen of Belfast it was news to me that we’re collectively known as Belfastians.

I’m realistically as distanced to Portland as most other Americans are, so I guess I have to defer to what I’m seeing on the ground.

If broader sentiment is still largely pro-protestors I mean the excesses can’t be quite as bad as being claimed in other quarters, I assume anyway.

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
September 04 2020 22:54 GMT
#52069
I live in Downtown Portland and can easily say that the police here that are against protestors are easy with trigger fingers. I also watched the trump caravan and have video to prove they were going around and around downtown with paintball guns and mace. They started multiple fights with random people on the side walk and also BLM protestors. Which the police literally did nothing to stop them. It was disgusting. I personally feel safe walking in downtown, but there is definitely more open racism happening.
Life?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23932 Posts
September 04 2020 23:09 GMT
#52070
Joe Biden is still lying about his participation in civil rights. Lies that helped lead to him dropping out of a previous presidential run.



"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
September 04 2020 23:12 GMT
#52071
On September 05 2020 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
Joe Biden is still lying about his participation in civil rights. Lies that helped lead to him dropping out of a previous presidential run.

https://twitter.com/LukewSavage/status/1301927094952300545


If it came out that Biden slapped an old woman and called her a Jabroni, it would be fairly minimal in today’s political climate

1988 was like tea and crumpets with the queen. If he didn’t thank someone for a question people would have wondered if he was hitler
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
September 05 2020 00:04 GMT
#52072
It's definitely worth bearing in mind, and merits a skeptical eye when it comes to expecting him to deliver progress on racial issues that extends beyond not vigorously stoking the fires of White Supremacy. Odds are he won't, or what little he's likely to attempt will be shut out by R's and other moderate D's in the senate. It's a nasty place to be where "I'm not that other guy, so vote for me" is what we're dealing with, but I think that not being Trump is genuinely a plus here. If I could ensure that Biden gets exactly 1 term, while we continue pulling the nation's head out of its arse, the issue would be so much simpler.

But, the fact is the bar a president is now expected to clear is depressingly low, and hearing for 3 and a half years about Trump doing one thing after another that should have landed him either on his ass or in jail, it's very hard to see this story about Biden and genuinely feel the outrage that is, in all honesty, warranted.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-09-05 01:26:31
September 05 2020 01:23 GMT
#52073
No, this is the final nail in the coffin. They don't want a liar running for president. Or a racist. Or someone who violates the covid restrictions. Wait, help me Danglars, where do you draw the line ?
The hypocrisy is running rampant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
September 05 2020 01:30 GMT
#52074
On September 05 2020 10:23 Erasme wrote:
No, this is the final nail in the coffin. They don't want a liar running for president. Or a racist. Or someone who violates the covid restrictions. Wait, help me Danglars, where do you draw the line ?
The hypocrisy is running rampant.

Not that this is necessarily where I want the line to be drawn, but if Trump supporters want everyone to start suddenly caring about whether the President can be caught with their pants down in lies and scandal, they should've been doing a much better job of holding up their own pants in the meantime. They don't get to complain about Biden being in the grey area. At this point, that's something that sucks for everyone else, as they hold their nose in the polls.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Starlightsun
Profile Blog Joined June 2016
United States1405 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-09-05 01:34:08
September 05 2020 01:32 GMT
#52075
Wow the suspect who killed the Patriot Prayer guy in Oregon was shot and killed by police.

https://apnews.com/f0418fd4a37be8d9b6953c8359109587
Law enforcement officials released the information they had compiled — justifying an arrest warrant for Reinoehl on a second-degree murder charge in the Aug. 29 killing — one day after Reinoehl’s killing shook a quiet suburb of Olympia, Washington.

Bystanders Thursday night ducked for cover behind automobiles from dozens of gunshots as four agents serving on a U.S. Marshals Service task force opened fire at Reinoehl.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23932 Posts
September 05 2020 02:49 GMT
#52076
On September 05 2020 10:30 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2020 10:23 Erasme wrote:
No, this is the final nail in the coffin. They don't want a liar running for president. Or a racist. Or someone who violates the covid restrictions. Wait, help me Danglars, where do you draw the line ?
The hypocrisy is running rampant.

Not that this is necessarily where I want the line to be drawn, but if Trump supporters want everyone to start suddenly caring about whether the President can be caught with their pants down in lies and scandal, they should've been doing a much better job of holding up their own pants in the meantime. They don't get to complain about Biden being in the grey area. At this point, that's something that sucks for everyone else, as they hold their nose in the polls.


There will be no complaining about liars in the grey area by either party going forward. OR they'll just ignore their hypocrisy like both parties have for the last 60+ years and argue all our problems are the other party's fault but not well enough to actually beat them and impose the better ideas/solutions.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26765 Posts
September 05 2020 09:43 GMT
#52077
On September 05 2020 10:32 Starlightsun wrote:
Wow the suspect who killed the Patriot Prayer guy in Oregon was shot and killed by police.

https://apnews.com/f0418fd4a37be8d9b6953c8359109587
Show nested quote +
Law enforcement officials released the information they had compiled — justifying an arrest warrant for Reinoehl on a second-degree murder charge in the Aug. 29 killing — one day after Reinoehl’s killing shook a quiet suburb of Olympia, Washington.

Bystanders Thursday night ducked for cover behind automobiles from dozens of gunshots as four agents serving on a U.S. Marshals Service task force opened fire at Reinoehl.

Basically everything in there was pretty profoundly depressing. What a time to be alive.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7393 Posts
September 05 2020 09:48 GMT
#52078
That Rittenhouse is alive while Reinoehl was killed says everything you could need to know about how the cops work in this country.
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26765 Posts
September 05 2020 10:10 GMT
#52079
On September 05 2020 18:48 Zambrah wrote:
That Rittenhouse is alive while Reinoehl was killed says everything you could need to know about how the cops work in this country.

I haven’t seen other sources bar that AP one, a witness did say he opened fire on the Marshalls so in this instance if that’s true I can’t really be too outraged.

Rittenhouse being alive is how it should be, but how in the name of fuck does he get to go home to his bed to sleep it off that night?
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22344 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-09-05 10:27:27
September 05 2020 10:27 GMT
#52080
On September 05 2020 18:48 Zambrah wrote:
That Rittenhouse is alive while Reinoehl was killed says everything you could need to know about how the cops work in this country.
Did Rittenhouse open fire on the police who came to arrest him? Because if the accounts are true and Reinoehl opened fire on the police first I can't blame them for shooting him.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
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