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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:38 Excludos wrote: And after all the Trump propaganda has been proven for the lies and fiction they were, you still belive Hillary was intending to go to war. Come on man He is just reporting on the Trump reddit sub that is in a state of denial at times. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:13 GreenHorizons wrote: What do you think of the idea of people who think a war is a good idea getting drafted before anyone else? Nah. All volunteer army as a profession except in times of crisis. But if you're going to draft kids at 18, that should be the drinking age and gun purchase age. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:37 Excludos wrote: Oh, I honestly wasn't aware that the nuclear clock had been set to 2 minutes to midnight in January (which is the lowest it has been since 1953). This is surely not going to improve things in that regard at all. From the moment Bolton says the words "North Korea" for the first time in official capacity, the clock-watchers are going to be appealing to an uncertainty principle to describe the time til doom. That said I doubt a full scale nuclear war is at all likely, even with such a nut on the case. Doesn't mean jack to the (potentially very many) people his appointment will affect in the more conventional capacity =/ | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:14 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Israel will not support a war with Iran, it is stupids ass thinking of anyone who believes this for a second. Israel actual defense is never fight a war unless it a physical threat to the state i.e. Six Day war scenario. Unless a knife is at their throat. You're wrong. If Israel feels that Iran is on the verge of having a nuke on a missile, they wind up supporting a lead up to war (and, yes, this involves all the diplomacy involved if somebody wakes up in Tehran that realizes the cost of their military/political/religious ideology). Background: Israel secretly bombed Assad's hidden nuclear lab built by the Koreans. They tried their best to not provoke Assad into a war after, and succeeded. Mandatory reading for response: Haaretz No Longer a Secret: How Israel Destroyed Syria's Nuclear Reactor It was one of the Israeli army's most successful operations, but was censored for over a decade. Now, a Haaretz investigation goes behind the scenes of the 2007 strike on 'The Cube,' shortly before it became an active nuclear reactor: From the intelligence failures and American foot-dragging, to the arguments at the top levels and the threats of a total war with Syria | ||
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:18 Plansix wrote: Reality is stranger than fiction. Russia has been courting a relationship with Bolton too. I'm pretty sure we're well past the point of Occam's Razor saying that this is all a strange coincidence, and Hanlon's Razor no longer applies. If this were a work of fiction, the way everything leads back to Russia would break suspension of disbelief. It is more rational to explain all this web of connections between everyone around Trump and Russia is a reason that they're all close to Trump rather than an unlikely coincidence. Speaking of connections to Russia... But on one occasion, The Daily Beast has learned, Guccifer failed to activate the VPN client before logging on. As a result, he left a real, Moscow-based Internet Protocol address in the server logs of an American social media company, according to a source familiar with the government’s Guccifer investigation. Twitter and WordPress were Guccifer 2.0’s favored outlets. Neither company would comment for this story, and Guccifer did not respond to a direct message on Twitter. www.thedailybeast.comWorking off the IP address, U.S. investigators identified Guccifer 2.0 as a particular GRU officer working out of the agency’s headquarters on Grizodubovoy Street in Moscow. That's a hell of an error. I almost feel Roger Stone has some explaining to do. Again. | ||
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Excludos
Norway7942 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:40 Plansix wrote: He is just reporting on the Trump reddit sub that is in a state of denial at times. Oh, you're right. I didn't catch that at all. My bad | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:24 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: When hundreds of thousands, if not many more, die or suffer indirectly as a result of whatever the sam-hell it is this madman intends to do, please remember your cheers. Pfft, I'll try to remember the craven response of the eternally forgetful. Actually, there's so many examples every week that it will be unlikely. Trump dooms any chance of NK. This is up until they do their song and dance again with talks. Response: Silence. It's a pretty fun gig, you're always right, and even when you're wrong, it never mattered because we never talk about that again. And when you remember, please use the fullest extent of your imagination. Imagine a mother hearing their child was killed by an explosive in a fight they weren't involved in, and how they'd process that. How every single day they'd wake up and think to check on them, make breakfast, whatever it is, only to realise their child is gone. Now imagine that for a different mother every single night for the rest of your life, because it's not even a blip on the radar compared to the potential damage someone like Bolton might do. Very poetic. I suppose the compassionate response is to imagine that nothing is worth dying for, or that millions of dead Israelis is the price we pay for peace? Thank you for being so honest, here. I must admit fault here, I literally cannot understand your value system. To cheer for Bolton seems antithetical to any notion of one I could imagine having. I mean this as a serious inquiry, what is it that makes you cheer for this? What do you imagine coming of it that you perceive as good, and why is that good? And how does it mitigate the obvious evil? The protection of our allies and interests in the area. If you're never willing to fight against mad regimes seeking nuclear weapons with clear targets of who to use them on, then you're broadly proclaiming that nothing is worth dying for outside our narrow domestic interests. I think an obvious evil was fought in WWII, but your arguments are as callow now as others were then. I think there's also obvious evil in taking a pacifist attitude towards the world ... that it's truly a willingness to never confront evil because somebody might get hurt. I know there's a lot to hash out on the details of where that line lies. But you just got done talking about dead kids and impossible to believe value systems (Even now, I think you believe it, and this is all a pretense to claim the moral high ground. I think people let on to be a lot more dumb than they really are. Is nothing beside your own health and well being worth dying for?) | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22664 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:41 Danglars wrote: Nah. All volunteer army as a profession except in times of crisis. But if you're going to draft kids at 18, that should be the drinking age and gun purchase age. I was talking after the volunteers are depleted. You're going before an 18 yo kid that doesn't want to right? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
(Several tweets are in that thread, and I encourage anyone not in the camp that stops thinking after hearing Russia and Nuclear Apocalypse to read it. I'm starting to have more compassion for people that have tuned out politics after hearing that everything's treason and everything's the end of the world) | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The Dow sank over 700 points on trade war fears. Wonder what it be like tomorrow in John Bolton news. Only stocks that will rise are defense stocks I imagine. kinda weird for me tbh. The news on that is pretty much as best-case-scenario as you could get. Of course he's going to slap tariffs on China but at the very least he's only going to war with China now. It's no longer Canada+Mexico+Europe+China at the same time as they all got exemptions (except for china, duh) and I'm not sure what the current status on other nations like SK, JP, Brazil etc is but I can't imagine him to go through with that either after already pulling back on Canada+Mexico+EU. So him taking those tariffs back without first having to touch the stove is an upgrade in my book. I guess WallStreet was 100% certain those tariffs would never go through in the first place if they consider this a downswing? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:59 GreenHorizons wrote: I was talking after the volunteers are depleted. You're going before an 18 yo kid that doesn't want to right? In the unlikely case that America gets involved in a war that depletes its volunteer reserves, it ought to be a random draft. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:56 Danglars wrote: Pfft, I'll try to remember the craven response of the eternally forgetful. Actually, there's so many examples every week that it will be unlikely. Trump dooms any chance of NK. This is up until they do their song and dance again with talks. Response: Silence. It's a pretty fun gig, you're always right, and even when you're wrong, it never mattered because we never talk about that again. Very poetic. I suppose the compassionate response is to imagine that nothing is worth dying for, or that millions of dead Israelis is the price we pay for peace? Thank you for being so honest, here. The protection of our allies and interests in the area. If you're never willing to fight against mad regimes seeking nuclear weapons with clear targets of who to use them on, then you're broadly proclaiming that nothing is worth dying for outside our narrow domestic interests. I think an obvious evil was fought in WWII, but your arguments are as callow now as others were then. I think there's also obvious evil in taking a pacifist attitude towards the world ... that it's truly a willingness to never confront evil because somebody might get hurt. I know there's a lot to hash out on the details of where that line lies. But you just got done talking about dead kids and impossible to believe value systems (Even now, I think you believe it, and this is all a pretense to claim the moral high ground. I think people let on to be a lot more dumb than they really are. Is nothing beside your own health and well being worth dying for?) Except... you know... the diplomatic deal that prevents all those points about dead Israelis from being at all relevant. The one actually being upheld pretty well. The one Agent Orange is now putting up in the air. But war is better for the ego, the empire, and not being affected by investigations and such. Sure, some wars need to fought, like WWII. But christ those wars are in the minority, especially where the US is concerned. And whatever the hell it is Bolton would want, that won't be one of them. Looking at history since WWII, which is much more relevant here, the whole "pacifism is evil" thing reeks of bullshit. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 23 2018 08:59 Plansix wrote: I love it that Danglars is now embracing the worse aspects of the Bush administration because Trump appointed Bolton. Now saying that there is an evil to avoiding war, like the Iraq war never happened. Bolton said and did a lot of things I agreed with. It compares favorably with what I know of McMaster. I wonder if there's any nuance left at the bottom, that saying there is an evil to avoiding this hypothesized war vs saying there is an evil to avoiding any proposed war for any reason ever. I think this is some pretty low blows and kind of defeats any purpose you might have taking such a Manichean view of any opponents apparently for no reason. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22664 Posts
On March 23 2018 09:07 Danglars wrote: In the unlikely case that America gets involved in a war that depletes its volunteer reserves, it ought to be a random draft. So poor children too young to vote when you cheered for this war should be randomly selected to fight it for you before you do? That seems like an awfully cowardly position. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 23 2018 09:09 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Except... you know... the diplomatic deal that prevents all those points about dead Israelis from being at all relevant. The one actually being upheld pretty well. The one Agent Orange is now putting up in the air. But war is better for the ego, the empire, and not being affected by investigations and such. Sure, some wars need to fought, like WWII. But christ those wars are in the minority, especially where the US is concerned. And whatever the hell it is Bolton would want, that won't be one of them. Looking at history since WWII, which is much more relevant here, the whole "pacifism is evil" thing reeks of bullshit. You and I have very different takes on the diplomatic deal you're so proud of. Let's just say I think Iran has a clear series of steps in front of it that would lead to a justified war without complete disarmament of it's nuclear weapons program + inspections. You should know a lot about the ego, having soothed it just now pretending the advocation of war under certain conditions is about the other person's ego and the empire. Dead kids into hawks longing for empire is a very nice fit for you. This is all very humorous. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15391 Posts
I'd sooner relinquish my citizenship than risk my life for anyone or anything, but it'd be nice to just hang out in Canada. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 23 2018 09:10 Danglars wrote: Bolton said and did a lot of things I agreed with. It compares favorably with what I know of McMaster. I wonder if there's any nuance left at the bottom, that saying there is an evil to avoiding this hypothesized war vs saying there is an evil to avoiding any proposed war for any reason ever. I think this is some pretty low blows and kind of defeats any purpose you might have taking such a Manichean view of any opponents apparently for no reason. And he lied about the Iraq war and tired to peddle lies about chemical weapons in Cuba. He tried to people at the state Department fired for not supporting his lies. But I’m pretty sure you didn’t know any of that. I sort of doubt you know who Bolton is. You political naivety shows daily. You blindly cheer Trump on and parrot the talking points that affirm your views, totally unaware the Bolton of one of the core architects of the lie that lead to the Iraq war. He is one of the people that cheered on the NSA data mining operations. He supported the use of torture and suspending rights to suspected terrorist, American citizens or otherwise. And you like him because he says things you agree with. User was warned for this post (discuss ideas rather than people) | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On March 23 2018 09:14 Danglars wrote: You and I have very different takes on the diplomatic deal you're so proud of. Let's just say I think Iran has a clear series of steps in front of it that would lead to a justified war without complete disarmament of it's nuclear weapons program + inspections. You should know a lot about the ego, having soothed it just now pretending the advocation of war under certain conditions is about the other person's ego and the empire. Dead kids into hawks longing for empire is a very nice fit for you. This is all very humorous. Bolton has literally misled with the intent of military action in the past. Stirring unjustified war is literally his MO. There's no way that crap could have been spun differently unless you admit him to be legitimately insane. So yes, hawk longing for empire seems like a pretty damn fair characterization here. And as long as you can keep a diplomatic deal functioning, that is much, much better than launching into war. And in a purely pragmatic (in some narrow view of the word) sense, it is much easier to ensure that they aren't actually making nuclear weapons when you have a deal that involves being able to inspect the facilities. Unless you think rolling the dice on a strike which will certainly prevent any semblance of peace for the region is a good bet. If only there were some ability to know how such things worked out in the past... | ||
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