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On October 18 2019 04:30 Nouar wrote: So, hmmm, Mulvaney just admitted that the Ukraine aid was held back specifically on order from Trump as he wanted Ukraine to investigate the DNC server and Ukraine's involvment for democrats (???) in the 2016 election.
I'm... guessing that's not exactly the message he wanted to convey ? Or if that is not an issue for him, I'm surprised ? I mean, this IS a quid pro quo... I don't really know how they can spin it in a legal way, something like "the president asked for an investigation as it's illegal to have foreign aid in an election", that ship sailed when Trump asked publicly for aid against his political enemies to China etc, no court would ever uphold that... Sadly, the courts are not involved in an impeachment, it's the Senate...
Add to that Sondland that is scheduled to testify tomorrow that Giuliani wanted to investigate specifically the DNC server and Hunter Biden's company, Mulvaney's assessment that suspending the aid was not tied to Biden is... dubious at best.
...And meanwhile, Trump will host the G7 at one of his resorts. It's such a shameless self-dealing/promotion, I can't fathom...
Yeah this is pretty crazy. He's doing the guiliani thing of admitting to the crime and saying so what?
He just put out a statement basically saying that he didn't say what he was literally on video saying. It's 1984-levels of "don't believe what you see or hear" stuff.
On October 18 2019 04:30 Nouar wrote: So, hmmm, Mulvaney just admitted that the Ukraine aid was held back specifically on order from Trump as he wanted Ukraine to investigate the DNC server and Ukraine's involvment for democrats (???) in the 2016 election.
I'm... guessing that's not exactly the message he wanted to convey ? Or if that is not an issue for him, I'm surprised ? I mean, this IS a quid pro quo... I don't really know how they can spin it in a legal way, something like "the president asked for an investigation as it's illegal to have foreign aid in an election", that ship sailed when Trump asked publicly for aid against his political enemies to China etc, no court would ever uphold that... Sadly, the courts are not involved in an impeachment, it's the Senate...
Add to that Sondland that is scheduled to testify tomorrow that Giuliani wanted to investigate specifically the DNC server and Hunter Biden's company, Mulvaney's assessment that suspending the aid was not tied to Biden is... dubious at best.
...And meanwhile, Trump will host the G7 at one of his resorts. It's such a shameless self-dealing/promotion, I can't fathom...
Yeah this is pretty crazy. He's doing the guiliani thing of admitting to the crime and saying so what?
So like we all thought from the beginning, the Trump plan is the supreme court. The supreme court will be the one to decide if he's impeached or not.
what? how so?
"I am allowed to do this" "lol you are totally not" "yes I am" "I guess we'll let the courts decide" "ok"
Is that not how you see this going?
Kavanaugh isn't going to make the other 8 judges ignore what the constitutions says.
On October 18 2019 04:30 Nouar wrote: So, hmmm, Mulvaney just admitted that the Ukraine aid was held back specifically on order from Trump as he wanted Ukraine to investigate the DNC server and Ukraine's involvment for democrats (???) in the 2016 election.
I'm... guessing that's not exactly the message he wanted to convey ? Or if that is not an issue for him, I'm surprised ? I mean, this IS a quid pro quo... I don't really know how they can spin it in a legal way, something like "the president asked for an investigation as it's illegal to have foreign aid in an election", that ship sailed when Trump asked publicly for aid against his political enemies to China etc, no court would ever uphold that... Sadly, the courts are not involved in an impeachment, it's the Senate...
Add to that Sondland that is scheduled to testify tomorrow that Giuliani wanted to investigate specifically the DNC server and Hunter Biden's company, Mulvaney's assessment that suspending the aid was not tied to Biden is... dubious at best.
...And meanwhile, Trump will host the G7 at one of his resorts. It's such a shameless self-dealing/promotion, I can't fathom...
Yeah this is pretty crazy. He's doing the guiliani thing of admitting to the crime and saying so what?
So like we all thought from the beginning, the Trump plan is the supreme court. The supreme court will be the one to decide if he's impeached or not.
what? how so?
"I am allowed to do this" "lol you are totally not" "yes I am" "I guess we'll let the courts decide" "ok"
Is that not how you see this going?
Kavanaugh isn't going to make the other 8 judges ignore what the constitutions says.
I share your prediction that this is too blatantly awful for the supreme Court to side with Trump on. If nothing else, the supreme Court deciding against impeachment is just awful for the country. My prediction is they don't take the case and side with the lower court that says Trump is fucked
On October 18 2019 04:30 Nouar wrote: So, hmmm, Mulvaney just admitted that the Ukraine aid was held back specifically on order from Trump as he wanted Ukraine to investigate the DNC server and Ukraine's involvment for democrats (???) in the 2016 election.
I'm... guessing that's not exactly the message he wanted to convey ? Or if that is not an issue for him, I'm surprised ? I mean, this IS a quid pro quo... I don't really know how they can spin it in a legal way, something like "the president asked for an investigation as it's illegal to have foreign aid in an election", that ship sailed when Trump asked publicly for aid against his political enemies to China etc, no court would ever uphold that... Sadly, the courts are not involved in an impeachment, it's the Senate...
Add to that Sondland that is scheduled to testify tomorrow that Giuliani wanted to investigate specifically the DNC server and Hunter Biden's company, Mulvaney's assessment that suspending the aid was not tied to Biden is... dubious at best.
...And meanwhile, Trump will host the G7 at one of his resorts. It's such a shameless self-dealing/promotion, I can't fathom...
Yeah this is pretty crazy. He's doing the guiliani thing of admitting to the crime and saying so what?
I just watched the press conference.
Mulvaney did not say or admit anything of the sort. The media reports are very misleading.
On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed.
All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over.
What you’re describing is a Russian victory.
And we don’t risk American lives and spend American resources in another country’s messy af civil war with no clear goal.
America benefits from this and it’s a victory for the constitution.
On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed.
All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over.
What you’re describing is a Russian victory.
And we don’t risk American lives and spend American resources in another country’s messy af civil war with no clear goal.
America benefits from this and it’s a victory for the constitution.
You do realize you are talking about a withdrawal that had us lives out at risk and spent American resources.
America doesn't benefit from this. Nothing good comes from just abandoning your allies and leaving them to have their heads chopped off and their families forced out of their homes.
How is this even a win for the constitution when the whole series of events is a series of executive actions that outright refused to even keep Congress up to date about.
A real leader would have negotiated all this and prevented the violence from happening. Even if Turkey needed the bufferzone and Assad needed support to reform a government while confronting the sad fact that an independent Kurdish nation was never going to happen.
On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed.
All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over.
What you’re describing is a Russian victory.
And we don’t risk American lives and spend American resources in another country’s messy af civil war with no clear goal.
America benefits from this and it’s a victory for the constitution.
You do realize you are talking about a withdrawal that had us lives out at risk and spent American resources.
America doesn't benefit from this. Nothing good comes from just abandoning your allies and leaving them to have their heads chopped off and their families forced out of their homes.
How is this even a win for the constitution when the whole series of events is a series of executive actions that outright refused to even keep Congress up to date about.
A real leader would have negotiated all this and prevented the violence from happening. Even if Turkey needed the bufferzone and Assad needed support to reform a government while confronting the sad fact that an independent Kurdish nation was never going to happen.
Withdrawing from the region means no more American lives will be at risk and no more resources will being poured into that conflict
I was under the impression that the ceasefire allows Kurds to retreat and not get slaughtered. Am I wrong here?
It’s a win for the Constitution because the involvement there is unconstitutional.
I agree that the violence should have been prevented.
On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed.
All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over.
What you’re describing is a Russian victory.
And we don’t risk American lives and spend American resources in another country’s messy af civil war with no clear goal.
America benefits from this and it’s a victory for the constitution.
You do realize you are talking about a withdrawal that had us lives out at risk and spent American resources.
America doesn't benefit from this. Nothing good comes from just abandoning your allies and leaving them to have their heads chopped off and their families forced out of their homes.
How is this even a win for the constitution when the whole series of events is a series of executive actions that outright refused to even keep Congress up to date about.
A real leader would have negotiated all this and prevented the violence from happening. Even if Turkey needed the bufferzone and Assad needed support to reform a government while confronting the sad fact that an independent Kurdish nation was never going to happen.
Withdrawing from the region means no more American lives will be at risk and no more resources will being poured into that conflict
I was under the impression that the ceasefire allows Kurds to retreat and not get slaughtered. Am I wrong here?
It’s a win for the Constitution because the involvement there is unconstitutional.
I agree that the violence should have been prevented.
Yeah, leaving an area in the middle east in an unstable situation has never had negative ramifications for the United States.
On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed.
All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over.
What you’re describing is a Russian victory.
And we don’t risk American lives and spend American resources in another country’s messy af civil war with no clear goal.
America benefits from this and it’s a victory for the constitution.
You do realize you are talking about a withdrawal that had us lives out at risk and spent American resources.
America doesn't benefit from this. Nothing good comes from just abandoning your allies and leaving them to have their heads chopped off and their families forced out of their homes.
How is this even a win for the constitution when the whole series of events is a series of executive actions that outright refused to even keep Congress up to date about.
A real leader would have negotiated all this and prevented the violence from happening. Even if Turkey needed the bufferzone and Assad needed support to reform a government while confronting the sad fact that an independent Kurdish nation was never going to happen.
Withdrawing from the region means no more American lives will be at risk and no more resources will being poured into that conflict
I was under the impression that the ceasefire allows Kurds to retreat and not get slaughtered. Am I wrong here?
It’s a win for the Constitution because the involvement there is unconstitutional.
I agree that the violence should have been prevented.
We partnered with the Kurds as a new counter terrorism strategy that gets local factions to do the fighting rather than US troops. The kurds laid down their lives to fight ISIS. We then withdrew and orchestrated an agreement by which the Kurds lose their territory. So in the future, we presumably lose the ability to make those local partnerships, because they know it's just a temporary agreement that fits the convenience of the US. We instead will have to use US troops to fight any concentration of terrorists in the ME.
Now if the Kurds are actually being integrated into the Syrian government and they're happy with that, that changes things. I'm skeptical to say the least.
Of course, trumps strategic depth here is that we'll let the sand ******* kill each other.
On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed.
All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over.
What you’re describing is a Russian victory.
And we don’t risk American lives and spend American resources in another country’s messy af civil war with no clear goal.
America benefits from this and it’s a victory for the constitution.
What? How in the world does the constitution come in to play? Is there an amendment I didn't know about which states we should leave our allies in the dust whenever it's convenient for our president's personal economy?
This article described the logistical issues of trying to retreat when your supply lines are protected by the allies you're abandoning. It actually puts us soldiers at risk and escalates military conflict. I imagine they are still true today.
On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed.
All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over.
What you’re describing is a Russian victory.
And we don’t risk American lives and spend American resources in another country’s messy af civil war with no clear goal.
America benefits from this and it’s a victory for the constitution.
What? How in the world does the constitution come in to play? Is there an amendment I didn't know about which states we should leave our allies in the dust whenever it's convenient for our president's personal economy?
He’s saying that because he’s been taught that referencing the constitution somehow makes an assertion stronger. It’s a rampant problem on the right, hackneyed constitutionalism is their bread and butter.
On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed.
All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over.
What you’re describing is a Russian victory.
And we don’t risk American lives and spend American resources in another country’s messy af civil war with no clear goal.
America benefits from this and it’s a victory for the constitution.
You do realize you are talking about a withdrawal that had us lives out at risk and spent American resources.
America doesn't benefit from this. Nothing good comes from just abandoning your allies and leaving them to have their heads chopped off and their families forced out of their homes.
How is this even a win for the constitution when the whole series of events is a series of executive actions that outright refused to even keep Congress up to date about.
A real leader would have negotiated all this and prevented the violence from happening. Even if Turkey needed the bufferzone and Assad needed support to reform a government while confronting the sad fact that an independent Kurdish nation was never going to happen.
I was under the impression that the ceasefire allows Kurds to retreat and not get slaughtered. Am I wrong here?
Yep, you are. And it doesn't take much googling to know this.
On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed.
All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over.
What you’re describing is a Russian victory.
And we don’t risk American lives and spend American resources in another country’s messy af civil war with no clear goal.
America benefits from this and it’s a victory for the constitution.
You do realize you are talking about a withdrawal that had us lives out at risk and spent American resources.
America doesn't benefit from this. Nothing good comes from just abandoning your allies and leaving them to have their heads chopped off and their families forced out of their homes.
How is this even a win for the constitution when the whole series of events is a series of executive actions that outright refused to even keep Congress up to date about.
A real leader would have negotiated all this and prevented the violence from happening. Even if Turkey needed the bufferzone and Assad needed support to reform a government while confronting the sad fact that an independent Kurdish nation was never going to happen.
I was under the impression that the ceasefire allows Kurds to retreat and not get slaughtered. Am I wrong here?
Yep, you are. And it doesn't take much googling to know this.
It sure looks like another classic Trump victory, as with the one in North Korea - concessions from USA to the oppressive country, giving its leadership legitimacy, while getting nothing back aside from empty words broken the day after. Then again, considering the USAs legitimacy as a trading and strategic military partner is worth less than the paper it's written on these days, I'm pretty sure "nothing back aside from empty words" is the appropriate value of things to offer them in deals.
I'd find it amusing how eager Trump is at giving away things for free to oppressive regimes without getting anything in return, if it wasn't so bad for everyone caught by the fallout.
He’s getting something in return; the optics that he’s taking American troops out of combat zones, the first president to do so in some time. We’ve already seen in this thread that there’s people out there that prioritize that over all else.
His base is the phylactery keeping his otherwise obliterated career alive, and he needs to keep it as strong as possible. That’s what he’s doing
On October 18 2019 22:30 Ryzel wrote: He’s getting something in return; the optics that he’s taking American troops out of combat zones, the first president to do so in some time. We’ve already seen in this thread that there’s people out there that prioritize that over all else.
His base is the phylactery keeping his otherwise obliterated career alive, and he needs to keep it as strong as possible. That’s what he’s doing
Did we not bring them back from Iraq? He’s the first President to do this since the last President.
I like how the result of 'temporarily not getting killed, and forced to leave your land' is promoted as a deal. Trump described it during his rally like this:
"I said, you gonna have to fight a little while, sometimes you have to let em fight'... 'They fought for a few days and it was vicious, but the Kurds are our friends and Turkey are our friends. But they fought and it was tough for em, I mean it was nasty. And you couldn't make a deal for 15 years. For 15-20 years you couldn't make a deal. Kurds didn't wanna move, Turkey didn't wanna budge.'... 'Now all of a sudden they're fighting and it's not fun having bullets going all over the place. And we went there and we said we want a pause, and the Kurds have been terrific and they're gonna be moving back a little bit. '
So you just needed some executions and bombs and suddenly the Kurds would move! 15 year dispute solved! Watch the clip it's really gross.
SDF has accepted the ceasefire but has not accepted the 30km safe zone controlled by Turkey and don't accept a demographic change, and neither has Syria. Moscow wants Syria's integrity restored.
There are also reports that the fighting is continuing today.
Ah, yeah that’s fair. Point still stands that regardless of his actual intent, there are people who support his decision on the grounds of getting people out of combat zones, and the majority of those are his base, so it has the added benefit of strengthening it.
His base supports basically anything this moron did. No matter if it actually alligns with any of the principals they supposedly stands for or the total opposite. If dear orange man sais its great, its great.
EPT
