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On October 17 2019 13:56 KwarK wrote:
Also some poor Turkish government official is going to have to translate it into Turkish while trying to maintain the unhinged tone and flow of the original. That idea also amuses me as a good translation wouldn’t be an accurate one so the poor guy is going to have to deliberately write nonsensical Turkish phrases in an official document for the President to capture the essence of the letter.
Funny thing is...
It also sounds hilarious in Turkish. Especially "Don't be fool, don't be a tough guy" part :D Also Erdoğan has pretty much 0 English.
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Can you give a literal translation in English of how it sounds in Turkish?
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On October 18 2019 02:58 zeo wrote:
Looks like the letter worked, Turkey will stop the offensive into Syria and will get its safezone while the Kurds will integrate into Syria. You guys might gloat over the way the current US president doesn't have others write his speeches for him but he basically ended the eight year civil war that Obama and Hilary Clinton started in less than a week. Five hundred thousand dead and most of you would be ok with another hundred thousand dead just because you like the view from your high horses.
It takes a lot of balls to clean up the trail of devastation Obama left behind. Most likely this whole Turkish invasion was planned by the US, Turkey, Syria and Russia beforehand but who cares about a little political theater if it finally ends this mess.
It's a 5 day cease fire, not a stop so far. We shall see what happens after those 5 days after Turkey meats with Russia
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On October 18 2019 02:58 zeo wrote:
Looks like the letter worked, Turkey will stop the offensive into Syria and will get its safezone while the Kurds will integrate into Syria. You guys might gloat over the way the current US president doesn't have others write his speeches for him but he basically ended the eight year civil war that Obama and Hilary Clinton started in less than a week. Five hundred thousand dead and most of you would be ok with another hundred thousand dead just because you like the view from your high horses.
It takes a lot of balls to clean up the trail of devastation Obama left behind. Most likely this whole Turkish invasion was planned by the US, Turkey, Syria and Russia beforehand but who cares about a little political theater if it finally ends this mess. Right, totally Trumps letter and not Turkey running into the Syrian army with Russian backup.
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Northern Ireland26764 Posts
On October 18 2019 02:58 zeo wrote:
Looks like the letter worked, Turkey will stop the offensive into Syria and will get its safezone while the Kurds will integrate into Syria. You guys might gloat over the way the current US president doesn't have others write his speeches for him but he basically ended the eight year civil war that Obama and Hilary Clinton started in less than a week. Five hundred thousand dead and most of you would be ok with another hundred thousand dead just because you like the view from your high horses.
It takes a lot of balls to clean up the trail of devastation Obama left behind. Most likely this whole Turkish invasion was planned by the US, Turkey, Syria and Russia beforehand but who cares about a little political theater if it finally ends this mess.
That’s a rather hot take.
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On October 18 2019 02:58 zeo wrote:
Looks like the letter worked, Turkey will stop the offensive into Syria and will get its safezone while the Kurds will integrate into Syria. You guys might gloat over the way the current US president doesn't have others write his speeches for him but he basically ended the eight year civil war that Obama and Hilary Clinton started in less than a week. Five hundred thousand dead and most of you would be ok with another hundred thousand dead just because you like the view from your high horses.
It takes a lot of balls to clean up the trail of devastation Obama left behind. Most likely this whole Turkish invasion was planned by the US, Turkey, Syria and Russia beforehand but who cares about a little political theater if it finally ends this mess.
How is a ceasefire in region that was already relatively peaceful before this week ending the civil war?
You realize the letter is dated 9 october? So Erdogan wiped his ass with it and invaded afterwords
If it was all a big plan then the US soldiers wouldn't have to retreat in such haste that they had to use F-15s to airstrike their own abandoned headquarters because they couldn't take all the ammo.
And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
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On October 18 2019 02:58 zeo wrote:
Looks like the letter worked, Turkey will stop the offensive into Syria and will get its safezone while the Kurds will integrate into Syria. You guys might gloat over the way the current US president doesn't have others write his speeches for him but he basically ended the eight year civil war that Obama and Hilary Clinton started in less than a week. Five hundred thousand dead and most of you would be ok with another hundred thousand dead just because you like the view from your high horses.
It takes a lot of balls to clean up the trail of devastation Obama left behind. Most likely this whole Turkish invasion was planned by the US, Turkey, Syria and Russia beforehand but who cares about a little political theater if it finally ends this mess.
My god I am laughing my ass off :-)
A five-day ceasefire with conditions, and you call it the end of the civil war. I mean, the situation was better BEFORE Trump decided to pull out but...
And that civil war was started by the Arab Spring and violent repression from Assad. ISIS is the product of several american administrations, but mainly the Bush one (you know, before Obama ?).
If anything, the current situation is due to the lukewarm attitude of the western world at the beginning. It all went to shit after Russia started backing Assad, and then nobody could move anymore. There were 2 viable solutions before that point : not do anything at all (wouldn't have been the first time), or do Lybia #2.
Instead, we had a slew of blurry red lines, crossed with no action taken, then Russia came in, and the murky deadlock started.
But celebrating the end of all the issues in the area during a scramble after a self-inflicted wound, and a short cease-fire with conditions that will never be met as they require a total surrender of the area (you know, THE LAND THEY LIVE IN) from kurdish forces ? Just hilarious.
It's as if Israel declared a truce as long as the palestinian promise to leave the west bank and gaza strip next week. Problem solved !
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On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 02:58 zeo wrote:
Looks like the letter worked, Turkey will stop the offensive into Syria and will get its safezone while the Kurds will integrate into Syria. You guys might gloat over the way the current US president doesn't have others write his speeches for him but he basically ended the eight year civil war that Obama and Hilary Clinton started in less than a week. Five hundred thousand dead and most of you would be ok with another hundred thousand dead just because you like the view from your high horses.
It takes a lot of balls to clean up the trail of devastation Obama left behind. Most likely this whole Turkish invasion was planned by the US, Turkey, Syria and Russia beforehand but who cares about a little political theater if it finally ends this mess. How is a ceasefire in region that was already relatively peaceful before this week ending the civil war? You realize the letter is dated 9 october? So Erdogan wiped his ass with it and invaded afterwords If it was all a big plan then the US soldiers wouldn't have to retreat in such haste that they had to use F-15s to airstrike their own abandoned headquarters because they couldn't take all the ammo. And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
Time and the fundamental nature of causality is no obstacle for Trump supporters. There are dozens of times things that happened before Trump took any action have been attributed to Trump, this is no different (if anything it's marginally more likely).
Just look at how a text message saying "no quid pro quo" written by proxy by Trump after he learned of the whistleblower complaint means there was never any quid pro quo.
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So, hmmm, Mulvaney just admitted that the Ukraine aid was held back specifically on order from Trump as he wanted Ukraine to investigate the DNC server and Ukraine's involvment for democrats (???) in the 2016 election.
I'm... guessing that's not exactly the message he wanted to convey ? Or if that is not an issue for him, I'm surprised ? I mean, this IS a quid pro quo... I don't really know how they can spin it in a legal way, something like "the president asked for an investigation as it's illegal to have foreign aid in an election", that ship sailed when Trump asked publicly for aid against his political enemies to China etc, no court would ever uphold that... Sadly, the courts are not involved in an impeachment, it's the Senate...
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/17/mulvaney-confirms-ukraine-aid-2016-probe-050156
Add to that Sondland that is scheduled to testify tomorrow that Giuliani wanted to investigate specifically the DNC server and Hunter Biden's company, Mulvaney's assessment that suspending the aid was not tied to Biden is... dubious at best.
...And meanwhile, Trump will host the G7 at one of his resorts. It's such a shameless self-dealing/promotion, I can't fathom...
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On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing
All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed.
All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over.
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United States43971 Posts
On October 18 2019 04:42 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed. All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over.
What you’re describing is a Russian victory.
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On October 18 2019 04:54 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 04:42 zeo wrote:On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed. All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over. What you’re describing is a Russian victory.
What scenario would be an American victory? The Syrian government won the war after the battle of Aleppo, Assad holds every single major population center besides Raqqa (and now Raqqa too). The only thing the US can do is stay in SDF territory indefinitely while the local Arab majority populations revolt over and over again because they don't want to be ruled by Kurds.
The Kurds took too long to peace out so everyone just said fuck them. They are probably the only ones not in on it.
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Claiming one's own resort is the best place to carry out a G7 summit is a rather bold statement, by usual ethics standards.
This president, what a beast at self enrichment on the public purse.
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United States43971 Posts
On October 18 2019 05:04 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 04:54 KwarK wrote:On October 18 2019 04:42 zeo wrote:On October 18 2019 04:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
And the ceasefire deal seems to be giving Erdogan literally everything he wants, kurds must leave north syria and erdogan gets 30km strip of territory. It's a complete betrayal and very doubtful the YPG/SDF/Syria will comply as they get nothing All SDF positions in Northern Syria will be replaced with regular SAA within the next 5 days. The Syrian Army is already in Kobani, the most Turkey can get is a relatively small strip of barren land to the depth of the M4 highway. Kurds cease to be an independent military player and will integrate into the Syrian political structure with a special status so Turkey is happy. Syria regains control over territory that has been under the control of foreign powers since 2012 so they are happy (all those juicy oilfields too). Russia gets to gloat. Kurds don't get ethnically cleansed. All thats left is Al-Qaeda and jihadist friends in Idlib and the war is over. What you’re describing is a Russian victory. What scenario would be an American victory? The Syrian government won the war after the battle of Aleppo, Assad holds every single major population center besides Raqqa (and now Raqqa too). The only thing the US can do is stay in SDF territory indefinitely while the local Arab majority populations revolt over and over again because they don't want to be ruled by Kurds. The Kurds took too long to peace out so everyone just said fuck them. They are probably the only ones not in on it.
Not this.
Just because you cannot win an absolute victory doesn’t mean you should switch sides and give the other guy an absolute victory. Trump is trying to give Putin a win and then pass it off as his own because he can’t get his own win.
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I still don't understand this sequence of events
Trump tells Turkey on the phone he'll remove US forces
Turkey invades Syria for their long wanted goal to control a zone beyond the border, and remove kurds from the area
Turkey uses shitty militia who execute people in cold blood
International backlash against Turkeys invasion to control a zone beyond the border and remove kurds from the area
Turkey gets sanctioned
Peace talks: Turkey promises it will stop fighting if they get to control a zone beyond the border and kurds are removed from the area
US promises sanctions get removed if this happens
How is it not rewarding Turkey for the invasion?
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Norway28794 Posts
On October 18 2019 04:30 Nouar wrote:So, hmmm, Mulvaney just admitted that the Ukraine aid was held back specifically on order from Trump as he wanted Ukraine to investigate the DNC server and Ukraine's involvment for democrats (???) in the 2016 election. I'm... guessing that's not exactly the message he wanted to convey ? Or if that is not an issue for him, I'm surprised ? I mean, this IS a quid pro quo... I don't really know how they can spin it in a legal way, something like "the president asked for an investigation as it's illegal to have foreign aid in an election", that ship sailed when Trump asked publicly for aid against his political enemies to China etc, no court would ever uphold that... Sadly, the courts are not involved in an impeachment, it's the Senate... https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/17/mulvaney-confirms-ukraine-aid-2016-probe-050156Add to that Sondland that is scheduled to testify tomorrow that Giuliani wanted to investigate specifically the DNC server and Hunter Biden's company, Mulvaney's assessment that suspending the aid was not tied to Biden is... dubious at best. ...And meanwhile, Trump will host the G7 at one of his resorts. It's such a shameless self-dealing/promotion, I can't fathom...
Yeah this is pretty crazy. He's doing the guiliani thing of admitting to the crime and saying so what?
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On October 18 2019 07:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 04:30 Nouar wrote:So, hmmm, Mulvaney just admitted that the Ukraine aid was held back specifically on order from Trump as he wanted Ukraine to investigate the DNC server and Ukraine's involvment for democrats (???) in the 2016 election. I'm... guessing that's not exactly the message he wanted to convey ? Or if that is not an issue for him, I'm surprised ? I mean, this IS a quid pro quo... I don't really know how they can spin it in a legal way, something like "the president asked for an investigation as it's illegal to have foreign aid in an election", that ship sailed when Trump asked publicly for aid against his political enemies to China etc, no court would ever uphold that... Sadly, the courts are not involved in an impeachment, it's the Senate... https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/17/mulvaney-confirms-ukraine-aid-2016-probe-050156Add to that Sondland that is scheduled to testify tomorrow that Giuliani wanted to investigate specifically the DNC server and Hunter Biden's company, Mulvaney's assessment that suspending the aid was not tied to Biden is... dubious at best. ...And meanwhile, Trump will host the G7 at one of his resorts. It's such a shameless self-dealing/promotion, I can't fathom... Yeah this is pretty crazy. He's doing the guiliani thing of admitting to the crime and saying so what?
So like we all thought from the beginning, the Trump plan is the supreme court. The supreme court will be the one to decide if he's impeached or not.
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On October 18 2019 07:17 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 07:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 18 2019 04:30 Nouar wrote:So, hmmm, Mulvaney just admitted that the Ukraine aid was held back specifically on order from Trump as he wanted Ukraine to investigate the DNC server and Ukraine's involvment for democrats (???) in the 2016 election. I'm... guessing that's not exactly the message he wanted to convey ? Or if that is not an issue for him, I'm surprised ? I mean, this IS a quid pro quo... I don't really know how they can spin it in a legal way, something like "the president asked for an investigation as it's illegal to have foreign aid in an election", that ship sailed when Trump asked publicly for aid against his political enemies to China etc, no court would ever uphold that... Sadly, the courts are not involved in an impeachment, it's the Senate... https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/17/mulvaney-confirms-ukraine-aid-2016-probe-050156Add to that Sondland that is scheduled to testify tomorrow that Giuliani wanted to investigate specifically the DNC server and Hunter Biden's company, Mulvaney's assessment that suspending the aid was not tied to Biden is... dubious at best. ...And meanwhile, Trump will host the G7 at one of his resorts. It's such a shameless self-dealing/promotion, I can't fathom... Yeah this is pretty crazy. He's doing the guiliani thing of admitting to the crime and saying so what? So like we all thought from the beginning, the Trump plan is the supreme court. The supreme court will be the one to decide if he's impeached or not.
what? how so?
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On October 18 2019 07:32 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 07:17 Mohdoo wrote:On October 18 2019 07:05 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 18 2019 04:30 Nouar wrote:So, hmmm, Mulvaney just admitted that the Ukraine aid was held back specifically on order from Trump as he wanted Ukraine to investigate the DNC server and Ukraine's involvment for democrats (???) in the 2016 election. I'm... guessing that's not exactly the message he wanted to convey ? Or if that is not an issue for him, I'm surprised ? I mean, this IS a quid pro quo... I don't really know how they can spin it in a legal way, something like "the president asked for an investigation as it's illegal to have foreign aid in an election", that ship sailed when Trump asked publicly for aid against his political enemies to China etc, no court would ever uphold that... Sadly, the courts are not involved in an impeachment, it's the Senate... https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/17/mulvaney-confirms-ukraine-aid-2016-probe-050156Add to that Sondland that is scheduled to testify tomorrow that Giuliani wanted to investigate specifically the DNC server and Hunter Biden's company, Mulvaney's assessment that suspending the aid was not tied to Biden is... dubious at best. ...And meanwhile, Trump will host the G7 at one of his resorts. It's such a shameless self-dealing/promotion, I can't fathom... Yeah this is pretty crazy. He's doing the guiliani thing of admitting to the crime and saying so what? So like we all thought from the beginning, the Trump plan is the supreme court. The supreme court will be the one to decide if he's impeached or not. what? how so?
"I am allowed to do this"
"lol you are totally not"
"yes I am"
"I guess we'll let the courts decide"
"ok"
Is that not how you see this going?
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