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On June 09 2019 02:05 Doodsmack wrote:
This agreement with Mexico may actually be a positive development. It seems to have some concrete measures to be taken by Mexico that, if they actually take them, could have a real impact in reducing the abnormal northward tide of immigrants that we currently have. I don't think many people would really disagree with the notion that illegal immigration needs to be kept to a minimum.
Plus, we need to have some existing enforcement in place with Mexico for when the northward flow of climate change immigrants begins.
I think if Trump held a pro-science view when it came to climate change and the environment, we wouldn't need to worry about that :/
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United States43460 Posts
It does absolutely nothing to change the reason migrants are coming. It’s like trying to deal with the opiates crisis through longer sentences.
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On June 09 2019 03:31 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 02:05 Doodsmack wrote:
This agreement with Mexico may actually be a positive development. It seems to have some concrete measures to be taken by Mexico that, if they actually take them, could have a real impact in reducing the abnormal northward tide of immigrants that we currently have. I don't think many people would really disagree with the notion that illegal immigration needs to be kept to a minimum.
Plus, we need to have some existing enforcement in place with Mexico for when the northward flow of climate change immigrants begins. Sounds like a pretty big win for Trump, and he has not had one in a while. The markets will also probably go up Monday as people react to the Tariffs being canceled.
Sounds like a pretty big loss for Trump, considering he clearly failed at keeping his campaign promise (to build a wall as the solution to illegal immigration, let alone having Mexico pay for it), and him making the stupid decision to create tariffs for Americans to pay extra money and then change his mind.
The markets have most recently been dropping and have been volatile throughout his whole presidency from 2018 onward, so his unpredictability, knee-jerk reactions, and bad decision making hasn't benefited the stock market.
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On June 09 2019 00:41 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2019 14:27 Taelshin wrote:
Darkplasma: "3. Impeachment can't happen because of Republicans in Congress, even if all Democrats were aligned."
They should put their money where their mouth's have been for the last 2 years, get on record voting for it, if it fails so what at least they tried to do what it a appears the majority of their base / people on this forum want them to do. I don't think it can hurt there 20/20 chances, May even help them with the disillusioned base who's been convinced trump was Russian agent for 2+years now.
And lets see how that will run on fox "news". My guess is something along the lines of: "Impeachment procedure in senate proves that Trump is completely innocent of everything!" When all that would really be proven is that republican senators would never vote against a republican president, not matter what is going on. Kind of pointless to give republicans that kind of ammunition, after you see how they can twist and spin everything already.
Desperate Democrats refuse to admit defeat despite innocent President.
Remember that people who watch Fox News aren't even aware that the Mueller Report explicitly doesn't exonerate Trump or, indeed, said anything bad about him whatsoever because Fox only focus on the positive for Trump.
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On June 09 2019 03:48 JimmiC wrote:
But does that even matter? I think it sounds great to most and the markets will react positively. And Trumps best chance for re-election is strong economy and markets.
Do logic and facts even matter? I mean, maybe not for many Americans, but it would be great if conservatives actually paid to attention to when Trump lies or fearmongers or gaslights. The economy and markets have been far more volatile and have slowed down growth dramatically since Obama and his policies left, so why is stagnation or volatility or decreasing growth great-sounding to some people? And that's ignoring the fact that the market and unemployment numbers literally mean nothing in terms of the average American family and worker... median income, minimum wage, and underemployment would add far more context and reveal far more issues with our economy than merely pointing to the fact that the stock market hasn't completely crashed like it did with GWB.
Edit: If you're only trying to assert that plenty of people- especially Trump supporters- will be fooled, then I agree with you.
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On June 09 2019 03:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 02:05 Doodsmack wrote:
This agreement with Mexico may actually be a positive development. It seems to have some concrete measures to be taken by Mexico that, if they actually take them, could have a real impact in reducing the abnormal northward tide of immigrants that we currently have. I don't think many people would really disagree with the notion that illegal immigration needs to be kept to a minimum.
Plus, we need to have some existing enforcement in place with Mexico for when the northward flow of climate change immigrants begins. I think if Trump held a pro-science view when it came to climate change and the environment, we wouldn't need to worry about that :/
I would imagine that absent a technological breakthrough, humanity isn't going to stop or even appreciably mitigate climate change at this point. So attention should switch to contingency plans for all the various consequences of climate change. And that's probably going to involve some unpleasant self-preservation measures.
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On June 09 2019 04:00 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 03:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2019 02:05 Doodsmack wrote:
This agreement with Mexico may actually be a positive development. It seems to have some concrete measures to be taken by Mexico that, if they actually take them, could have a real impact in reducing the abnormal northward tide of immigrants that we currently have. I don't think many people would really disagree with the notion that illegal immigration needs to be kept to a minimum.
Plus, we need to have some existing enforcement in place with Mexico for when the northward flow of climate change immigrants begins. I think if Trump held a pro-science view when it came to climate change and the environment, we wouldn't need to worry about that :/ I would imagine that absent a technological breakthrough, humanity isn't going to stop or even appreciably mitigate climate change at this point. So attention should switch to contingency plans for all the various consequences of climate change. And that's probably going to involve some unpleasant self-preservation measures.
To be fair, one of the two major parties has been creating resolutions and plans with reasonable benchmarks and goals to deal with climate change, while the other one broadly doesn't even believe that humans are contributing to the issue (let alone coming up with any ideas on how to deal with it). Sadly, the former of the two isn't in control of our country, so we'll keep spiraling downwards, especially if Trump wins again. We'll just hear about Chinese hoaxes and see snowballs in court for the next 4-5 years.
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On June 09 2019 03:48 JimmiC wrote:
But does that even matter? I think it sounds great to most and the markets will react positively. And Trumps best chance for re-election is strong economy and markets. The markets dropped when he announced the idea of tarrifs against Mexico no?
So them going back up when the tarrifs don't go through isn't really a win. Tho it will no doubt be spun as such.
Just Trump getting cheered on for correcting a problem he himself created weeks/days before.
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On June 09 2019 02:05 Doodsmack wrote:
This agreement with Mexico may actually be a positive development. It seems to have some concrete measures to be taken by Mexico that, if they actually take them, could have a real impact in reducing the abnormal northward tide of immigrants that we currently have. I don't think many people would really disagree with the notion that illegal immigration needs to be kept to a minimum.
Plus, we need to have some existing enforcement in place with Mexico for when the northward flow of climate change immigrants begins.
When people's lives are threatened (climate change, drug traffic, no jobs for income) and there is no other recourse (which is a lot of immigration), they will come anyway because there is no other choice. The other choice death, which is no choice.
The only way we halt immigration is by helping our neighbors (Mexico) to grow as a country, then people don't want to leave. Look at Canada... shit... I want healthcare, I'm tempted all the time to try living north for a while.
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On June 09 2019 03:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 03:48 JimmiC wrote:
But does that even matter? I think it sounds great to most and the markets will react positively. And Trumps best chance for re-election is strong economy and markets. Do logic and facts even matter? I mean, maybe not for many Americans, but it would be great if conservatives actually paid to attention to when Trump lies or fearmongers or gaslights.
THAT is a truly amazing and important question. Do facts really matter, even here in this thread. I see a lot of statements thrown around this thread, but the impact (or ability of the statement to have meaningful change in another person) these statements have on others is extremely minimal at best.
At best a statement provokes another statement in defense, but only very rarely will someone actually change a position based on fact.
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On June 09 2019 07:08 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 03:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2019 03:48 JimmiC wrote:
But does that even matter? I think it sounds great to most and the markets will react positively. And Trumps best chance for re-election is strong economy and markets. Do logic and facts even matter? I mean, maybe not for many Americans, but it would be great if conservatives actually paid to attention to when Trump lies or fearmongers or gaslights. THAT is a truly amazing and important question. Do facts really matter, even here in this thread. I see a lot of statements thrown around this thread, but the impact (or ability of the statement to have meaningful change in another person) these statements have on others is extremely minimal at best. At best a statement provokes another statement in defense, but only very rarely will someone actually change a position based on fact.
That's because facts are meaningless. People can and do change their minds all the time, just not in response to naked facts, whatever those are. Let's call them facts in-themselves. It's the facts for-us that matter.
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On June 09 2019 07:00 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 02:05 Doodsmack wrote:
This agreement with Mexico may actually be a positive development. It seems to have some concrete measures to be taken by Mexico that, if they actually take them, could have a real impact in reducing the abnormal northward tide of immigrants that we currently have. I don't think many people would really disagree with the notion that illegal immigration needs to be kept to a minimum.
Plus, we need to have some existing enforcement in place with Mexico for when the northward flow of climate change immigrants begins. When people's lives are threatened (climate change, drug traffic, no jobs for income) and there is no other recourse (which is a lot of immigration), they will come anyway because there is no other choice. The other choice death, which is no choice. The only way we halt immigration is by helping our neighbors (Mexico) to grow as a country, then people don't want to leave. Look at Canada... shit... I want healthcare, I'm tempted all the time to try living north for a while.
Well in the event that certain countries remain in turmoil, which is the most likely scenario (or they go underwater), there needs to be something in place to resist that. Although I guess we have a lot of rural areas in this country, so in theory we could just make the whole country into a densely populated place. Question is whether that is sustainable. If it's not sustainable, what do you other than turn them back?
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On June 09 2019 07:15 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 07:08 ShambhalaWar wrote:On June 09 2019 03:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2019 03:48 JimmiC wrote:
But does that even matter? I think it sounds great to most and the markets will react positively. And Trumps best chance for re-election is strong economy and markets. Do logic and facts even matter? I mean, maybe not for many Americans, but it would be great if conservatives actually paid to attention to when Trump lies or fearmongers or gaslights. THAT is a truly amazing and important question. Do facts really matter, even here in this thread. I see a lot of statements thrown around this thread, but the impact (or ability of the statement to have meaningful change in another person) these statements have on others is extremely minimal at best. At best a statement provokes another statement in defense, but only very rarely will someone actually change a position based on fact. That's because facts are meaningless. People can and do change their minds all the time, just not in response to naked facts, whatever those are. Let's call them facts in-themselves. It's the facts for-us that matter.
I've definitely found that people are more likely to be persuaded when they're still on the fence about something... After X amount of experiences or arguments occur, and a person has decided to take a specific side, it's much harder to move them. It's as if new information becomes less convincing after stating one's stance, as if that kind of intellectual honesty and flexibility is perceived only as vulnerability.
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On June 09 2019 03:39 KwarK wrote:
It does absolutely nothing to change the reason migrants are coming. It’s like trying to deal with the opiates crisis through longer sentences.
In your mind, what are the reasons for migrants coming to the United States from/through Mexico, and why does the deal but address them? I'm just not informed enough to understand what your answer means, and I fear that trying to get my own answers to what I think you're trying to say through research would create miscommunication.
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On June 09 2019 20:04 Howie_Dewitt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 03:39 KwarK wrote:
It does absolutely nothing to change the reason migrants are coming. It’s like trying to deal with the opiates crisis through longer sentences. In your mind, what are the reasons for migrants coming to the United States from/through Mexico, and why does the deal but address them? I'm just not informed enough to understand what your answer means, and I fear that trying to get my own answers to what I think you're trying to say through research would create miscommunication.
Mexico's still in the grip of a massive drug war that's been going on for twelve years. The cartels are equipped so well and are so powerful at the top end that they're practically paramilitary, so the Mexican government essentially deputised the army. It's a small scale civil war, basically.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War
The wikipedia article is a good summation of some of the ridiculous shit that's happening across the border. Lots of Mexicans fleeing that. On top of that Mexico's economy has always been hit or miss, so poverty can happen at a click of the fingers, and in general a lot of Mexicans go to the US for seasonal work to make a bit more money then go home again (or try to), and of course a lot who do that think 'gee it'd be nice to stay' and sooner or later try to.
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Don't forget that Mexico is only one piece of the puzzle. Particularly in places like Guatemala and Honduras, there are a host of stark humanitarian issues that will only get worse (many of which relate directly to US foreign policy), which is why an effective "border policy" deals in tons of stuff that doesn't have much to do with the rules of the border. Unchecked gang activity, nonexistent law enforcement, and other dire straits are going to push people towards looking for a better life no matter what rules govern entrance into the US.
Granted, Trump's DHS is determined to punish immigrants so harshly that they are dissuaded from making the trip, but that's not only a medieval solution, it completely ignores the underlying causes (as has been pointed out in this thread numerous times).
Now that I think of it, there are some pretty telling parallels between the inefficacy of prohibitive border rules and the failed war on drugs; no amount of yelling "PEOPLE NEED TO FOLLOW THE RULES OR BE PUNISHED!" will change the decisions being made by people who are acting in reaction to circumstances that supersede acknowledgment of the rules.
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Realized this was several days ago but I haven't found any resolution to it. WV residents have purple water that officials assure them is safe to drink after diluting it with... more purple water?
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EPT
