EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 1473
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 21 2019 22:51 JimmiC wrote: Do we know that he refused too, or could this be in the redacted portion we can't read? He refused. There’s no redaction where the discussion would have occurred. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 21 2019 23:28 JimmiC wrote: Hmm interesting I guess we will see, no way with Barr being full team Trump that is not going to get a extra full investigation. And your take on all Trumps tax crimes including his miss use of his charity? I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t think that there’s anything to Trump’s taxes because it has all already been looked at by the authorities. If there was a crime, he’d have been prosecuted long ago. | ||
KwarK
United States44440 Posts
On May 21 2019 23:41 xDaunt wrote: I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t think that there’s anything to Trump’s taxes because it has all already been looked at by the authorities. If there was a crime, he’d have been prosecuted long ago. Are you including Foundation self dealing here? I also think you’re massively overestimating what an audit actually involves. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On May 21 2019 23:41 xDaunt wrote: I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t think that there’s anything to Trump’s taxes because it has all already been looked at by the authorities. If there was a crime, he’d have been prosecuted long ago. Have you read the now prize winning NYT article yet from last year? I remember you didn't have time for it I think. It really paints a picture of the Trump family and taxes. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html The line between legal tax avoidance and illegal tax evasion is often murky, and it is constantly being stretched by inventive tax lawyers. There is no shortage of clever tax avoidance tricks that have been blessed by either the courts or the I.R.S. itself. The richest Americans almost never pay anything close to full freight. But tax experts briefed on The Times’s findings said the Trumps appeared to have done more than exploit legal loopholes. They said the conduct described here represented a pattern of deception and obfuscation, particularly about the value of Fred Trump’s real estate, that repeatedly prevented the I.R.S. from taxing large transfers of wealth to his children. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 21 2019 23:52 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Have you read the now prize winning NYT article yet from last year? I remember you didn't have time for it I think. It really paints a picture of the Trump family and taxes. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html I did read it at some point, and it did nothing to change my mind. It's political innuendo of the highest order. Note how the excerpt that you quoted frames the issues using anonymous "tax experts": "clever tax avoidance" and "pattern of deception and obfuscation." Do you know what is not stated explicitly? An outright conclusion of criminal conduct. It's the same sleight of hand trick used in the Mueller report. The simple fact of the matter is this: Trump has been extensively audited by the IRS. He was not charged with anything. The idea that any of his tax practices were fraudulent prior to the IRS audit is preposterous on its face. So that leaves us with tax practices that he engaged in after the audit. I highly doubt that he or his army of accountants working below him materially changed their accounting practices or did anything criminal afterwards. I certainly have seen no evidence of it. | ||
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KwarK
United States44440 Posts
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IyMoon
United States1249 Posts
On May 22 2019 00:28 xDaunt wrote: I did read it at some point, and it did nothing to change my mind. It's political innuendo of the highest order. Note how the excerpt that you quoted frames the issues using anonymous "tax experts": "clever tax avoidance" and "pattern of deception and obfuscation." Do you know what is not stated explicitly? An outright conclusion of criminal conduct. It's the same sleight of hand trick used in the Mueller report. The simple fact of the matter is this: Trump has been extensively audited by the IRS. He was not charged with anything. The idea that any of his tax practices were fraudulent prior to the IRS audit is preposterous on its face. So that leaves us with tax practices that he engaged in after the audit. I highly doubt that he or his army of accountants working below him materially changed their accounting practices or did anything criminal afterwards. I certainly have seen no evidence of it. Random question. Do you have proof that he is extensively been audited? He says he has, and I believe he has, but has anything been proven? | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On May 21 2019 11:47 xDaunt wrote: It's an abuse of the president's rights. Just because someone takes office doesn't mean that they surrender all rights at the door. There are huge compliance costs with those types of subpoenas. The subjects of those subpoenas have to lawyer up to ensure not only compliance but also the lawfulness of the subpoena itself. This is one of the largely untold stories of the true harm of Mueller's investigation. Tons of innocent people were swept up into the whole mess and had to spend exorbitant sums on their own legal counsel while they were being interviewed or otherwise producing things for the special counsel. How is it an abuse of the president's rights? Are you really saying he is surrendering "all" his rights? That is clearly not the case. Which rights are you saying are being taken away from Trump? Other people caught up in Mueller's investigation are not the issue here. I am asking about my above questions with regards to Trump. So far, you have only elaborated on why you think this whole thing is a stupid waste of time. You have not shown why this is fundamentally wrong and you have not shown how Trump's rights are being taken away. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On May 22 2019 00:34 KwarK wrote: And the Foundation xDaunt? He was definitely paying taxes properly on the money he self dealed through his charity on. He's an upstanding citizen who has never been charged with a crime! On May 21 2019 23:52 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Have you read the now prize winning NYT article yet from last year? I remember you didn't have time for it I think. It really paints a picture of the Trump family and taxes. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html xDaunt is right about this one though. It's certainly treading into technically illegal territory, but only if it goes to court. The result of such a thing would be paying the difference as well, no criminal charges. This isn't unique to Trump either. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 22 2019 00:35 IyMoon wrote: Random question. Do you have proof that he is extensively been audited? He says he has, and I believe he has, but has anything been proven? Just google it. There's a bunch of new stories about him being audited for several years back in the 2000s and again now. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 22 2019 00:36 Mohdoo wrote: How is it an abuse of the president's rights? Are you really saying he is surrendering "all" his rights? That is clearly not the case. Which rights are you saying are being taken away from Trump? Other people caught up in Mueller's investigation are not the issue here. I am asking about my above questions with regards to Trump. So far, you have only elaborated on why you think this whole thing is a stupid waste of time. You have not shown why this is fundamentally wrong and you have not shown how Trump's rights are being taken away. Fourth Amendment rights? Right to privacy? Right to be free from government interference in your own affairs? If you don't understand the basic principle that we live in a society in which the government is not empowered to investigate anyone and everyone for whatever reason, then that's a very big problem. This isn't communist China. This is the USA. This is one of the big themes to come out of the FBI and Mueller investigations into Trump: the unlawful use of government power for political purposes. These people clearly had such animus towards Trump that they were willing to do whatever they could to justify investigating him and his team, including lying to a FISA court. This is police state-level bullshit that has no place in this country. I sincerely hope that most democrats are eventually going to wake up to the fact that they are very much on the wrong side of this stuff. | ||
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KwarK
United States44440 Posts
This is not politically motivated. Trump is causing this through his conduct. The tax return stuff is a classic example. Trump is not being singled out by the expectation that he does what all of his predecessors have always done. They’re asking of them of Trump because they asked them of everyone but Trump alone refused. They’re subpoenaing the information because he wouldn’t follow the convention of freely providing it, he’s caused this. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 22 2019 00:49 JimmiC wrote: xDaunt my question (other then Kwarks foundation question which keeps being missed) is, is there anything that could happen to Trump that would not be someone else's fault or a grand conspiracy against him? I have little doubt that the foundation was audited when Trump was audited. What's good enough for the IRS is good enough for me. I don't mean this disingenuously. I mean like if after his presidency if he gets arrested, charged and convicted would this be enough to show that he is criminal? Or would it be a politically motivated attack even after he is gone? Is there any event that could change your perception or is your lack of trust in the institutions of American so low and your Trust in Trump so high that you can never be swayed? I don't see why he couldn't be legitimately arrested, charged, and prosecuted for something. I just don't know what that something is right now. What I find disturbing about the conversation is this wholly unsupported presumption on the part of people that Trump has done something criminal. You guys aren't looking at any of this stuff with a critical eye. You're getting gaslit by a political media and you don't even realize it. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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IyMoon
United States1249 Posts
On May 22 2019 01:02 JimmiC wrote: The foundation was shut down. Because of self dealing. This is not words, or a thought, it is what actually has happened. I think xDaunts point is that is not really a jailable offense. Trump does some bad shit but even I don't know what he actually goes to jail for. Pays a shit ton of fines? yeah, jail? no | ||
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