|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On May 10 2019 03:26 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 03:19 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:58 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 02:53 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:49 xDaunt wrote:
This isn’t hard. The joke is about the people of the panhandle. He is singling them out for thinking that shooting immigrants is okay and making fun of them for having that attitude. This is why I said the joke is actually a mild admonishment. So in this scenario we all agree that the supporter isn't joking? Not necessarily. Good! It didn't feel like we were all agreeing. So, again, if he is joking, how does the joke work? I was only speaking to what Trump did, because it is pretty obvious what Trump was doing when looking at everything in context. In contrast, there is no information to draw any reasonable inference regarding what the audience member intended with his comment. Accordingly, I see little point in speculating regarding what the audience member truly meant.
What was Trump mildly admonishing in this interpretation?
|
On May 10 2019 03:27 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 03:26 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 03:19 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:58 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 02:53 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:49 xDaunt wrote:
This isn’t hard. The joke is about the people of the panhandle. He is singling them out for thinking that shooting immigrants is okay and making fun of them for having that attitude. This is why I said the joke is actually a mild admonishment. So in this scenario we all agree that the supporter isn't joking? Not necessarily. Good! It didn't feel like we were all agreeing. So, again, if he is joking, how does the joke work? I was only speaking to what Trump did, because it is pretty obvious what Trump was doing when looking at everything in context. In contrast, there is no information to draw any reasonable inference regarding what the audience member intended with his comment. Accordingly, I see little point in speculating regarding what the audience member truly meant. What was Trump mildly admonishing in this interpretation?
The audience member’s comment about shooting the illegals.
|
On May 10 2019 03:27 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 03:26 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 03:19 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:58 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 02:53 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:49 xDaunt wrote:
This isn’t hard. The joke is about the people of the panhandle. He is singling them out for thinking that shooting immigrants is okay and making fun of them for having that attitude. This is why I said the joke is actually a mild admonishment. So in this scenario we all agree that the supporter isn't joking? Not necessarily. Good! It didn't feel like we were all agreeing. So, again, if he is joking, how does the joke work? I was only speaking to what Trump did, because it is pretty obvious what Trump was doing when looking at everything in context. In contrast, there is no information to draw any reasonable inference regarding what the audience member intended with his comment. Accordingly, I see little point in speculating regarding what the audience member truly meant. "There is no functioning joke mechanism" would seem to me a decent information to draw a reasonable inference.
You are unfamiliar with the concept of sarcasm?
|
On May 10 2019 03:29 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 03:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 10 2019 03:26 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 03:19 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:58 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 02:53 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:49 xDaunt wrote:
This isn’t hard. The joke is about the people of the panhandle. He is singling them out for thinking that shooting immigrants is okay and making fun of them for having that attitude. This is why I said the joke is actually a mild admonishment. So in this scenario we all agree that the supporter isn't joking? Not necessarily. Good! It didn't feel like we were all agreeing. So, again, if he is joking, how does the joke work? I was only speaking to what Trump did, because it is pretty obvious what Trump was doing when looking at everything in context. In contrast, there is no information to draw any reasonable inference regarding what the audience member intended with his comment. Accordingly, I see little point in speculating regarding what the audience member truly meant. What was Trump mildly admonishing in this interpretation? The audience member’s comment about shooting the illegals.
Why (did he admonish the comment) in your opinion?
|
On May 10 2019 03:30 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 03:27 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 03:26 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 03:19 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:58 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 02:53 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:49 xDaunt wrote:
This isn’t hard. The joke is about the people of the panhandle. He is singling them out for thinking that shooting immigrants is okay and making fun of them for having that attitude. This is why I said the joke is actually a mild admonishment. So in this scenario we all agree that the supporter isn't joking? Not necessarily. Good! It didn't feel like we were all agreeing. So, again, if he is joking, how does the joke work? I was only speaking to what Trump did, because it is pretty obvious what Trump was doing when looking at everything in context. In contrast, there is no information to draw any reasonable inference regarding what the audience member intended with his comment. Accordingly, I see little point in speculating regarding what the audience member truly meant. "There is no functioning joke mechanism" would seem to me a decent information to draw a reasonable inference. You are unfamiliar with the concept of sarcasm?
I thought I was familiar with it but apparently I'm not so go ahead, show me how it works.
|
On May 10 2019 03:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 03:29 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 03:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 10 2019 03:26 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 03:19 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:58 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 02:53 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:49 xDaunt wrote:
This isn’t hard. The joke is about the people of the panhandle. He is singling them out for thinking that shooting immigrants is okay and making fun of them for having that attitude. This is why I said the joke is actually a mild admonishment. So in this scenario we all agree that the supporter isn't joking? Not necessarily. Good! It didn't feel like we were all agreeing. So, again, if he is joking, how does the joke work? I was only speaking to what Trump did, because it is pretty obvious what Trump was doing when looking at everything in context. In contrast, there is no information to draw any reasonable inference regarding what the audience member intended with his comment. Accordingly, I see little point in speculating regarding what the audience member truly meant. What was Trump mildly admonishing in this interpretation? The audience member’s comment about shooting the illegals. Why (did he admonish the comment) in your opinion?
Because he knew it was inappropriate.
|
On May 10 2019 03:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 03:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 10 2019 03:29 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 03:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 10 2019 03:26 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 03:19 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:58 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 02:53 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:49 xDaunt wrote:
This isn’t hard. The joke is about the people of the panhandle. He is singling them out for thinking that shooting immigrants is okay and making fun of them for having that attitude. This is why I said the joke is actually a mild admonishment. So in this scenario we all agree that the supporter isn't joking? Not necessarily. Good! It didn't feel like we were all agreeing. So, again, if he is joking, how does the joke work? I was only speaking to what Trump did, because it is pretty obvious what Trump was doing when looking at everything in context. In contrast, there is no information to draw any reasonable inference regarding what the audience member intended with his comment. Accordingly, I see little point in speculating regarding what the audience member truly meant. What was Trump mildly admonishing in this interpretation? The audience member’s comment about shooting the illegals. Why (did he admonish the comment) in your opinion? Because he knew it was inappropriate.
Do you believe the audience thought he was being admonished or it was inappropriate? Because their reaction gives me the opposite impression. That they thought he was praising them for an "honesty" you can only get in the panhandle.
He's said previously he can't and wouldn't want to shoot them, but it is an effective strategy.
It sounds to me like "I can't give you permission, but I agree, shooting them is effective".
|
On May 10 2019 03:40 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 03:36 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 03:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 10 2019 03:29 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 03:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 10 2019 03:26 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 03:19 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:58 xDaunt wrote:On May 10 2019 02:53 Nebuchad wrote:On May 10 2019 02:49 xDaunt wrote:
This isn’t hard. The joke is about the people of the panhandle. He is singling them out for thinking that shooting immigrants is okay and making fun of them for having that attitude. This is why I said the joke is actually a mild admonishment. So in this scenario we all agree that the supporter isn't joking? Not necessarily. Good! It didn't feel like we were all agreeing. So, again, if he is joking, how does the joke work? I was only speaking to what Trump did, because it is pretty obvious what Trump was doing when looking at everything in context. In contrast, there is no information to draw any reasonable inference regarding what the audience member intended with his comment. Accordingly, I see little point in speculating regarding what the audience member truly meant. What was Trump mildly admonishing in this interpretation? The audience member’s comment about shooting the illegals. Why (did he admonish the comment) in your opinion? Because he knew it was inappropriate. Do you believe the audience thought he was being admonished or it was inappropriate? Because their reaction gives me the opposite impression. That they thought he was praising them for an "honesty" you can only get in the panhandle.
This is a more complicated question because it gets into crowd and audience dynamics. The bottom line however, is that the audience was reacting to the endearing qualities of Trump's comment. This is something that he is very good at when on stage.
|
On May 10 2019 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:
On top of everything else, I would still like for one of our conservative friends to explain the joke.
See the humor in the joke about arming fetuses comes from the fact that it's taking the conservative belief that more guns make us safer and bringing it to an extreme that renders the situation completely absurd.
"Immigrants are coming to invade us aaaaahhhhhh!"
"Shoot them!"
The humor in this joke is...? Go.
The joke would be that it's vile and wrong. It's like Hitler jokes, shock value. The problem is that those kinds of jokes is how hate groups recruit. Most people understand it's wrong but the few who dont make good targets to groom.
I dont think it's much of a joke
|
Its a lot like when people joke about suicide or joke about wanting to die. Its incredibly offensive to some people but if you confront them on it people pile on you about "ofc its a joke stop being a joke police".
|
United States42773 Posts
It’s much harder to insist it’s a joke when it’s also something his supporters are actually doing. Shock humour is based on “no, but wouldn’t it be funny if yes, that’d be nuts”. If they’re actually doing it, as right wing armed militias are, you’re left with “yes, and it’s funny”.
|
On May 10 2019 04:01 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:
On top of everything else, I would still like for one of our conservative friends to explain the joke.
See the humor in the joke about arming fetuses comes from the fact that it's taking the conservative belief that more guns make us safer and bringing it to an extreme that renders the situation completely absurd.
"Immigrants are coming to invade us aaaaahhhhhh!"
"Shoot them!"
The humor in this joke is...? Go. The joke would be that it's vile and wrong. It's like Hitler jokes, shock value. The problem is that those kinds of jokes is how hate groups recruit. Most people understand it's wrong but the few who dont make good targets to groom. I dont think it's much of a joke
Could you give me an example of a Hitler joke that functions in the same fashion?
|
It's only a joke if everybody knows it's wrong. If you don't believe that the person shouting it was saying it in jest then you're making a joke out an uncomfortable position to hang a lantern and move on from it.
On May 10 2019 04:04 KwarK wrote:
It’s much harder to insist it’s a joke when it’s also something his supporters are actually doing. Shock humour is based on “no, but wouldn’t it be funny if yes, that’d be nuts”. If they’re actually doing it, as right wing armed militias are, you’re left with “yes, and it’s funny”.
Exactly it rings less like a joke because of who is saying it. The closer the thing is to reality the less it functions as a joke. Because it's only funny when it's not real.
|
|
|
Well you have the case of 13 reasons why which glorifies suicide and then in the second season justifies school shootings. Its corresponded with a proveable increase in suicides. But good luck getting it taken off Netflix or stopping its season three from coming out.
|
I dunno. Occam's Razor tells me that when Trump is in his preferred environment - an ocean of open Trump supporters - a "joke" about shooting immigrants on sight doesn't seem like much of a joke at all. Are we suddenly living in a world where Trump and his supporters haven't expressed open hostility toward immigrants, and where they haven't "joked" about shooting their opponents? That Trump didn't - without provocation - say he could shoot someone in broad daylight and not lose support? In what world would this comment about shooting immigrants suddenly be unacceptable in that context?
What is Trump "admonishing"? The fact that his supporters are saying exactly the kind of shit he's been grooming them to say? No. Occam's Razor holds true just fine here. It's a "joke" because calling it a "joke" gives them plausible deniability. Let's get this out in the open. There are no, um, *checks notes*, "complicated questions" that need to be answered. I'm gonna go ahead and call this spade a spade.
|
United States42773 Posts
On May 10 2019 04:06 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2019 04:01 semantics wrote:On May 10 2019 02:42 Nebuchad wrote:
On top of everything else, I would still like for one of our conservative friends to explain the joke.
See the humor in the joke about arming fetuses comes from the fact that it's taking the conservative belief that more guns make us safer and bringing it to an extreme that renders the situation completely absurd.
"Immigrants are coming to invade us aaaaahhhhhh!"
"Shoot them!"
The humor in this joke is...? Go. The joke would be that it's vile and wrong. It's like Hitler jokes, shock value. The problem is that those kinds of jokes is how hate groups recruit. Most people understand it's wrong but the few who dont make good targets to groom. I dont think it's much of a joke Could you give me an example of a Hitler joke that functions in the same fashion?
I’d shoot them but we’re not in the Ukraine.
|
This is how I see it:
Trump wasn't joking about shooting immigrants, he was joking about someone suggesting to shoot immigrants 10 (ten) seconds after him saying "we can't let them use weapons, we can't, other countries do, we can't, I would never do that". Then he hears the guy and bursts into laughter together with the ocean of his supporters because Trump and the vast majority of his supporters found the absurdity of the guy's suggestion funny.
|
United States42773 Posts
On May 10 2019 04:28 Sent. wrote:
This is how I see it:
Trump wasn't joking about shooting immigrants, he was joking about someone suggesting to shoot immigrants 10 (ten) seconds after him saying "we can't let them use weapons, we can't, other countries do, we can't, I would never do that". Then he hears the guy and bursts into laughter together with the ocean of his supporters because Trump and the vast majority of his supporters found the absurdity of the guy's suggestion funny.
How is it absurd? His supporters formed an armed right wing militia and went to the border.
|
On May 10 2019 04:28 Sent. wrote:
This is how I see it:
Trump wasn't joking about shooting immigrants, he was joking about someone suggesting to shoot immigrants 10 (ten) seconds after him saying "we can't let them use weapons, we can't, other countries do, we can't, I would never do that". Then he hears the guy and bursts into laughter together with the ocean of his supporters because Trump and the vast majority of his supporters found the absurdity of the guy's suggestion funny.
The problem is that the absurdity is less obvious to enough people for there to be militias on the border (allegedly) seriously talking about shooting people.
Not satisfied with just detaining hundreds of immigrants at the border, a member of a heavily armed militia cited Adolf Hitler and suggested "lining them up and shooting them," according to a police report of the incident and a member of the group.
The jarring comment was made while members of the militia group known as the United Constitutional Patriots (UCP) observed several migrants crossing the US–Mexico border in New Mexico, prompting the man, who was already armed with a handgun, to run to his car and grab an AR-15 rifle.
"Why are we just apprehending them and not lining them up and shooting them?" Armando Delgado Gonzalez, 52, allegedly told a militia member known as "Viper." "We have to go back to Hitler days and put them all in a gas chamber."
www.buzzfeednews.com
To me it's closer to the old "Be a shame if patriot supporters started using the very effective method of shooting immigrants that I recognize I can't and don't want to happen".
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
