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On April 13 2019 08:42 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 07:56 BerserkSword wrote:On April 13 2019 07:50 On_Slaught wrote:
Wishful thinking. Let's not forget that Trump is still an incompetent fool aggressively unfit for the office he holds. That will be al problem for him in 2020 no matter what. Just wait for the next fuck up and his poll numbers will tank again. We've been here before. People once said that Trump becoming president was wishful thinking. I agree with xDaunt's analysis Also, if Trump is "aggressively unfit for the office he holds" then so were Obama, Bush, and Clinton, and that didnt stop any of them from two terms. Obama is clearly one of the smartest people in any room he’s in. It’s evident from the way he speaks, though he has the academic record to back that up. Trump is clearly not the smartest man in any room he’s in, including when he’s alone. Again, it’s evident from the way he speaks, and again he has the record to back that up. They’re not comparable. There’s a reason that he got literally laughed out of the UN. He’s an embarrassment. He Twitter feuds with his own government at times. Angela Merkel had to send a guy to make visual aids to help him understand that Germany can’t make a deal with him and that he needed to negotiate with the EU because after four explanations he just wasn’t getting it.
One of my favourite things about how obviously dumb Trump is is that he claims to be incredibly sharp yet sent Michael Cohen to the various educational institutions he attended to threaten them about ever releasing his transcripts. A smart person, good grades or not (some people suck at tests, let's be realistic here), would never do that. But yes, how he communicates is a pretty big indicator of his level of intelligence.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out.
No he isn’t, he’s just the only one who’s aggressively pushed ‘everyone is lying but me’ and had it stick.
Which is patently, 100% obvious to actual moderates and independents.
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As of the moment the WTC towers fell down, Trump's building became the tallest in NYC. Perhaps if we go back and look at the tape, we can chart the exact second that Trump's building became the tallest. It's hard to comprehend the depravity of someone who would say this.
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On April 13 2019 09:41 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out. No he isn’t, he’s just the only one who’s aggressively pushed ‘everyone is lying but me’ and had it stick. Which is patently, 100% obvious to actual moderates and independents.
I keep thinking - is Trump actually gaining voters? how many people who voted for him didn't really support him or like him, but did vote for him because they hated Hillary or wanted Bernie instead, or wanted "something different", or they always vote republican no matter what, and so on and so on.
If you boil the math down like that I wonder what it comes to:
People who are going to change their vote due to what they have seen from Trump - with people voting for the first time - people voting this election who sat out last election, etc.
If only it was as simple as basic math... :/
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On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out.
What's exhausting is this hypocritical morality play from the right. The literal majority of the facts Trump states are verifiable lies, yet you're here praising him for pushing back on "false" stories.
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He does not seem interested in growing support beyond his base it shows. It showed in 2018 and he didn’t change. The fact is Trump barely won that election. I’m not going to predict the next one, but he won’t be facing Hilary again.
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On April 13 2019 10:07 Doodsmack wrote:As of the moment the WTC towers fell down, Trump's building became the tallest in NYC. Perhaps if we go back and look at the tape, we can chart the exact second that Trump's building became the tallest. It's hard to comprehend the depravity of someone who would say this. https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1116825077792804864
Funniest part of this bout of narcissism is that he wasn't even correct about now being the tallest.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On April 13 2019 10:07 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 09:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out. No he isn’t, he’s just the only one who’s aggressively pushed ‘everyone is lying but me’ and had it stick. Which is patently, 100% obvious to actual moderates and independents. I keep thinking - is Trump actually gaining voters? how many people who voted for him didn't really support him or like him, but did vote for him because they hated Hillary or wanted Bernie instead, or wanted "something different", or they always vote republican no matter what, and so on and so on. If you boil the math down like that I wonder what it comes to: People who are going to change their vote due to what they have seen from Trump - with people voting for the first time - people voting this election who sat out last election, etc. If only it was as simple as basic math... :/
I don’t think he is, but I don’t have any data to back it up really.
To my mind Trump can win if you put up a really flawed candidate, and if turnout is lower both because the base of your candidate isn’t enthused, but also if people stay at home because they’ve been told that your opponent will beat you relatively easily.
It’s really a perfect storm of those factors, plus people who voted because he was an outsider who might do certain things, which he hasn’t, and gave him a shot may have changed their minds.
I mean at my most sympathetic I was like 55/45 Clinton vs Trump in favourability, as I’m not a fan of hers. That’s flipped to 100/0 if I had a time machine.
Trump basically got as much of his base out as he could, some others sick of the system gave him a shot, and his opposition had a terrible candidate.
Probably a fair bunch of the ‘give him a shot’ camp, won’t because they’ve already done it and he didn’t pass muster. His opposition might be better. Also the complacency of a ‘Trump can’t win’ can’t really be as much of a factor when he already done.
I hate (well I don’t) drawing Brexit parallels, but there are commonalities. The perfect storm happened there, and factors shifted, so those in favour cling to ‘the will of the people argument’ because outside of that perfect storm they’ll lose a second referendum.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
At least of people I talked to who I’d class as moderate or centrist, they had misgivings on various things, but they thought a drain the swamp candidate trumped (pardon the pun) other concerns.
Within that group anyway, all of them have flipped. Not all to Dems either, some just intend to vote for the libertarian candidate
Because they’re not idiots and Trump doesn’t want to drain the swamp, he wants to be king of the swamp, even a worse swamp.
The only people who buy his shit are his base, at this point. He’ll pick up votes from people who think he’s the least worst option.
Anyone I’ve talked to that is a genuinely open-minded person who gave him a shot has changed their position.
Not to mention unless the Dems put out a terrible candidate they’ll get a bump anyway, both from the previous complacent ‘he won’t get in crowd’, but also from not having Clinton up there too.
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On April 13 2019 09:38 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. This comes up time and time again. It's bullshit. I would give you the benefit of the doubt if it were just about the Investigation, sure. The majority of the media is simply reporting on what he's doing, and more importantly, what he's tweeting. Then he goes ahead and calls it "fake news". He has done jack shit to push back. In fact, i don't think you actually know what "pushing back" means. Crying like a little bitch about how unfair everyone is because you're "the best president this country ever had" isn't pushing back. It's being a bitch. If media reports on yet another dipshit moment of his on twitter, and he'd come out clarifying that he fucked up but it's sad that media has to milk it so much, that's pushing back. Being a whiny, petty little manchild is not that. Like, not even remotely.
My, my. It sounds like you don’t like it. You’re probably used to conservatives just sitting there and sucking it up when we’re called racist, sexist, bigots who want to send grannie off the cliff and keep minorities down. This is fairly typical of leftists that think their more absurd accusations are plain facts.
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On April 13 2019 09:41 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out. No he isn’t, he’s just the only one who’s aggressively pushed ‘everyone is lying but me’ and had it stick. Which is patently, 100% obvious to actual moderates and independents.
Name another Republican candidate who even got close.
I do think moderates would be happier with another guy who sits and takes it. Republicans are useful when they back down at the first sign of a fight.
On April 13 2019 10:16 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out. What's exhausting is this hypocritical morality play from the right. The literal majority of the facts Trump states are verifiable lies, yet you're here praising him for pushing back on "false" stories.
Did I say he never misses? Did I make an absolute statement or a comparative? Still no takers on the point of the post.
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Do Democrats put any responsibility on their leadership for throwing Rep Omar under the bus and pushing the narrative that she was saying/doing antisemitic things helping lead to her life being threatened and being smeared in major publications?
On April 13 2019 10:36 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 05:23 xDaunt wrote:On April 13 2019 05:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 13 2019 05:09 IyMoon wrote:
So after the WH comes out and says the dumping if immigrants in sanctuary cities saying it was considered and then rejected. Trump tweets out that that is still being considered.
The WH is a well oiled machine of not knowing how to stay on message Have you considered it's intentional? Of course it's intentional. The Democrat response to it has been predictably terrible. They look like massive hypocrites when they promote open borders policies and massive benefits for illegals and then object to the illegals being dumped in their communities. I see both you and Nettles say this. Can you please explain to me which polices of theirs are open borders and massive benefits for illegals?
As someone who would like to see open borders I can assure folks there is no open borders policy from Democrats.
What there is, is bipartisan support for using the immigration system to exploit vulnerable workers/students with threats of deportation and such.
Some rich predominately white people literally just got caught in a massive fraud to get into prestigious universities and worst case the kids have to go to new schools and parents pay back what they stole from the IRS and pick up garbage (or pay a maid to do it) for comunity service.
Meanwhile dreamers risk deportation to a country they don't even recognize if they get caught with a joint in the wrong state. Both parties like that threat lording over immigrant labor.
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On April 13 2019 10:16 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out. What's exhausting is this hypocritical morality play from the right. The literal majority of the facts Trump states are verifiable lies, yet you're here praising him for pushing back on "false" stories.
This isn't about hypocrisy, this is about saying the republicans are right. Danglars doesn't want a world with more truth, he wants a world that does what he wants more. So when Trump says democrats are bad and lying, but Trump also lies 75% of the time, Danglars can completely support that, because the truth is irrelevant to this situation.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On April 13 2019 13:53 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 09:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out. No he isn’t, he’s just the only one who’s aggressively pushed ‘everyone is lying but me’ and had it stick. Which is patently, 100% obvious to actual moderates and independents. Name another Republican candidate who even got close. I do think moderates would be happier with another guy who sits and takes it. Republicans are useful when they back down at the first sign of a fight. Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 10:16 On_Slaught wrote:On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out. What's exhausting is this hypocritical morality play from the right. The literal majority of the facts Trump states are verifiable lies, yet you're here praising him for pushing back on "false" stories. Did I say he never misses? Did I make an absolute statement or a comparative? Still no takers on the point of the post.
Moderates don’t especially like fighting, unless someone is just consistent in fighting for their principles or consistent.
Which really isn’t a charge one can lay at Trump’s door. Also why the Dems continually attacking him in the way they do is stupid, there’s really no need to be so partisan there’s more than enough to work with.
If Trump pushed back at the problems of the media, or politics in general in a way that didn’t solely benefit him and even vaguely went down swamp draining route he’d be pretty popular, at least way more so than he is now with moderates. Neither institutions poll particularly well at present in trust and whatnot.
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On April 13 2019 13:52 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 09:38 m4ini wrote:Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. This comes up time and time again. It's bullshit. I would give you the benefit of the doubt if it were just about the Investigation, sure. The majority of the media is simply reporting on what he's doing, and more importantly, what he's tweeting. Then he goes ahead and calls it "fake news". He has done jack shit to push back. In fact, i don't think you actually know what "pushing back" means. Crying like a little bitch about how unfair everyone is because you're "the best president this country ever had" isn't pushing back. It's being a bitch. If media reports on yet another dipshit moment of his on twitter, and he'd come out clarifying that he fucked up but it's sad that media has to milk it so much, that's pushing back. Being a whiny, petty little manchild is not that. Like, not even remotely. My, my. It sounds like you don’t like it. You’re probably used to conservatives just sitting there and sucking it up when we’re called racist, sexist, bigots who want to send grannie off the cliff and keep minorities down. This is fairly typical of leftists that think their more absurd accusations are plain facts.
It tells a lot if someone who thinks who has it figured out calls someone conservative "leftist" because he disagrees with the views of his lord and saviour. I'll be honest here, i might sound like "i don't like it", apart from being patently untrue (not that this would matter to you, never has as we know) - you sound like a moron. Every single time you make blatantly bullshit arguments like that.
Absurd accusations like, hm.. like what? Just on this page, someone reporting that Trump felt it was necessary to point out that he now has the biggest building after 9/11. On 9/11. Or how about arguing that "nobody knew how hard healthcare is"? Or wait, how about when he literally called "any negative poll fake news"? Yeah, he stuck it to "them", didn't he. With eloquence. Another good example would be when he called media dishonest for calling out the vulgarity of him saying that HRC got "schlonged" by arguing that "he meant "beaten badly".
That's the usual concept. He says something outrageously retarded, "the media" calls him out on it, and then he calls them fake news or dishonest by arguing that "he didn't mean what he said, but something else".
Here's your problem, or at this point, probably your only "lifeline". There was a lot of bullshit/hysteria in regards to the russia investigation. That's it. Everything else is usually reports on something objectively dumb that he says, or does, or tweets. These are things on tape, on his twitter feed, or simply objectively stupid. And the worst part, you absolutely know it.
Did I say he never misses? Did I make an absolute statement or a comparative?
No, you implied it by arguing that he aggressively pushes back "on false media narratives". And in fact, you did it here again: you argue that you didn't say "he never misses". The reality is, 95 out of a 100 times he doesn't hit.
Put it this way, if you need 150 rounds to hit a target once, then you're not a good shooter.
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On April 13 2019 14:52 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 10:16 On_Slaught wrote:On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out. What's exhausting is this hypocritical morality play from the right. The literal majority of the facts Trump states are verifiable lies, yet you're here praising him for pushing back on "false" stories. This isn't about hypocrisy, this is about saying the republicans are right. Danglars doesn't want a world with more truth, he wants a world that does what he wants more. So when Trump says democrats are bad and lying, but Trump also lies 75% of the time, Danglars can completely support that, because the truth is irrelevant to this situation.
This Harry Frankurt guy wrote a nice essay called On Bullshit where he distinguishes the liar, who actually cares about the truth even though he tries to conceal it, and the bullshitter, who is totally indifferent.
I don’t know at what point the GOP has become a bullshit party, but it nails what we are witnessing. The most salient part of the Trump era is the emergence of a whole category of people and citizens who absolutely don’t care about the truth.
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On April 13 2019 17:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 14:52 Nebuchad wrote:On April 13 2019 10:16 On_Slaught wrote:On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out. What's exhausting is this hypocritical morality play from the right. The literal majority of the facts Trump states are verifiable lies, yet you're here praising him for pushing back on "false" stories. This isn't about hypocrisy, this is about saying the republicans are right. Danglars doesn't want a world with more truth, he wants a world that does what he wants more. So when Trump says democrats are bad and lying, but Trump also lies 75% of the time, Danglars can completely support that, because the truth is irrelevant to this situation. This Harry Frankurt guy wrote a nice essay called On Bullshit where he distinguishes the liar, who actually cares about the truth even though he tries to conceal it, and the bullshitter, who is totally indifferent. I don’t know at what point the GOP has become a bullshit party, but it nails what we are witnessing. The most salient part of the Trump era is the emergence of a whole category of people and citizens who absolutely don’t care about the truth.
For me personally, while I recognize the differences, part of the reason I think this loop persists is an inability or refusal for those lobbing this critique at Trump supporters to see this in themselves.
I'd say Democrats in the US care about the truth as much as they care about Black people in Chicago, Baltimore, etc... That's to say, slightly more than Republicans.
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On April 13 2019 08:31 xDaunt wrote:Gallup has Trump up to 45, which ties previous highs that he had in January 2017 and in June 2018. Source. Rasmussen has him at 49% today and has had him as high as 53% this week. Source. Any way you cut it, Trump's numbers are up significantly since the Mueller investigation came up empty.
Oh? “Any way you cut it,” you say? And how about those YouGov polls that had him at 39% and 40% recently? Maybe rather than cherrypicking polls that support your point, we should try making a weighted average of all the polls and look at that?
This is silly. Maybe in the past you could quote a couple polls and count on people to not look up any other polls and take your word for the trend, but these days it’s pretty easy to flip over to 538 and see his approval basically hasn’t moved at all. Went down to ~39% during the shutdown, back up to ~42.5% right after. We’re sitting at 42.1% now. I suppose this is where the conversation moves to you thinking 538 is biased, but before we leave can we pause and note how “any way you cut it” is simply untrue?
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On April 13 2019 15:52 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2019 13:53 Danglars wrote:On April 13 2019 09:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out. No he isn’t, he’s just the only one who’s aggressively pushed ‘everyone is lying but me’ and had it stick. Which is patently, 100% obvious to actual moderates and independents. Name another Republican candidate who even got close. I do think moderates would be happier with another guy who sits and takes it. Republicans are useful when they back down at the first sign of a fight. On April 13 2019 10:16 On_Slaught wrote:On April 13 2019 09:27 Danglars wrote:
Trump's the first guy in a generation to aggresively push back on false media narratives. I just wonder if exhaustion at all the ensuing fights on a billion different topics will matter in 2020. I know most Americans are realizing that they are important fights, but I just wonder how many independents and moderates will long for a quieter news cycle and put their trust in someone other than Trump to calm things down.
I've seen polls on relative exhaustion with all the Trump news showing high percentages of Americans are worn out. What's exhausting is this hypocritical morality play from the right. The literal majority of the facts Trump states are verifiable lies, yet you're here praising him for pushing back on "false" stories. Did I say he never misses? Did I make an absolute statement or a comparative? Still no takers on the point of the post. Moderates don’t especially like fighting, unless someone is just consistent in fighting for their principles or consistent. Which really isn’t a charge one can lay at Trump’s door. Also why the Dems continually attacking him in the way they do is stupid, there’s really no need to be so partisan there’s more than enough to work with. If Trump pushed back at the problems of the media, or politics in general in a way that didn’t solely benefit him and even vaguely went down swamp draining route he’d be pretty popular, at least way more so than he is now with moderates. Neither institutions poll particularly well at present in trust and whatnot.
That’s your perspective and I think you need to step back and examine it from other ones. Politics is full of mixed bag politicians that do a lot for their constituents, while pursuing and expanding their power. From yours, a lot of “but he lies/no part of it is fairly considered pushing back against false narratives.” From the right, part of it is “he isn’t speaking to your experience.” You’ve never been called deplorable, clinging to guns and religion, or called racist when you wanted America to control America’s immigration policy.
Furthermore, you can’t even advance to the real question because you have problems with the foundations. How else will you get the message out that right-of-center immigration policy and America-first foreign policy are things you support, but nobody fights for them? Nobody even looks at the record of the party WHEN ASKED to look at it. The easiest point to make is politicians for multiple decades promised in campaign platforms or speeches to move the embassy to Jerusalem, and Trump did it. He pushed back on the narrative that it would incite imminent violence and won (more paper tigers).
You may not accept the “good” in his actions because it’s surrounded by so much “bad,” but maybe in time you’ll see the point to it all. It sure as hell beats the racism and deception narrative for why he was elected and why he enjoys a base of support today.
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