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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1270

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10806 Posts
April 02 2019 08:12 GMT
#25381
Uhm... That China is building coal plants like mad is common knowledge, China was never depictet anywhere as a renewable powerhouse.
And why wouldn't "westerners" focus on, well, the west?

Your fighting against strawmen that don't exist and your argument in the end boils down to: "LOOK CHINA IS BAD!".
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11629 Posts
April 02 2019 09:29 GMT
#25382
It is a win for boths sides of anti-enviroment assholes.

Us guys point at China: "Look, they are polluting, we don't need to do anything"
China guys point at US: "Look, they are polluting (and have been, why should we stop first?"

And thus, none of them need to do anything. It is amazing in the stupidity.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18112 Posts
April 02 2019 10:11 GMT
#25383
On April 02 2019 16:23 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2019 08:59 xDaunt wrote:
On April 02 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:
People always forget about hydro as well. And it is not like pursuing clean energy means you will instantly lose the market for the fossil fuels, especially things like natural gas. It is just moving towards it that is important.

Sure, I'm in favor of more hydro. As are most people on my side. Lord knows places like California need more reservoirs anyway. But let's get real -- building hydro plants is damned near impossible thanks to many of the same environmentalist hippies that are demanding that we get off of fossil fuels in the first place. They won't tolerate the environmental and habitat damage that hydro power causes. Hell, they obstruct damned near every highway, railway, or pipeline project of note in the courts due to trumped up environmental impact concerns. Yet these same idiots want us to switch to solar and wind power, notwithstanding the fact that solar and power have huge environmental impacts due to their huge geographic footprints.

Yes, western climate fanatics like to croak how China is a renewables powerhouse while failing to mention the massive three gorges dam is the worlds largest power plant.Actually news just came out that China was using 17% more coal than claimed by their government.Many new coal power plants being built there.Westerners focused on Europe where emissions peaked in 90’ and USA where emissions peaked in 07’.

You do realize the three gorges power plant is hydroelectric, right? And thus fully renewable. It has nothing to do with China's addiction to coal and is actually quite a powerful argument against it.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10131 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-02 14:58:29
April 02 2019 11:46 GMT
#25384
On April 02 2019 16:23 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2019 08:59 xDaunt wrote:
On April 02 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:
People always forget about hydro as well. And it is not like pursuing clean energy means you will instantly lose the market for the fossil fuels, especially things like natural gas. It is just moving towards it that is important.

Sure, I'm in favor of more hydro. As are most people on my side. Lord knows places like California need more reservoirs anyway. But let's get real -- building hydro plants is damned near impossible thanks to many of the same environmentalist hippies that are demanding that we get off of fossil fuels in the first place. They won't tolerate the environmental and habitat damage that hydro power causes. Hell, they obstruct damned near every highway, railway, or pipeline project of note in the courts due to trumped up environmental impact concerns. Yet these same idiots want us to switch to solar and wind power, notwithstanding the fact that solar and power have huge environmental impacts due to their huge geographic footprints.

Yes, western climate fanatics like to croak how China is a renewables powerhouse while failing to mention the massive three gorges dam is the worlds largest power plant.

Before hitting the reply button you should re-read your post.

Now, come again at the discussion about renewable energies withouth going on a "but whatabout" tangent please that is also so stupid that it's making my head spin, you won't find anybody in here that doesn't agree that China should lower its emissions aswell.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18838 Posts
April 02 2019 15:26 GMT
#25385
If Trump actually goes through with closing the southern border, the resulting shitshow will be truly remarkable. The economic effects cannot be overstated.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9629 Posts
April 02 2019 15:34 GMT
#25386
some people have to touch the stove.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15723 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-02 15:37:59
April 02 2019 15:35 GMT
#25387
On April 03 2019 00:26 farvacola wrote:
If Trump actually goes through with closing the southern border, the resulting shitshow will be truly remarkable. The economic effects cannot be overstated.


Won't happen. There are clearly a few people who are always able to step on his neck when he gets truly out of line. He just wanted to feel powerful, so here we are.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
April 02 2019 15:40 GMT
#25388
Guess it could be a useful practice run for when the climate change migrants start coming North.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43210 Posts
April 02 2019 15:48 GMT
#25389
On April 03 2019 00:35 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 03 2019 00:26 farvacola wrote:
If Trump actually goes through with closing the southern border, the resulting shitshow will be truly remarkable. The economic effects cannot be overstated.


Won't happen. There are clearly a few people who are always able to step on his neck when he gets truly out of line. He just wanted to feel powerful, so here we are.

He’s been burning through them. Kelly was the one who kept him in NAFTA by hiding his withdrawal papers. Mattis kept him in NATO and resigned in protest over withdrawing unilaterally from the Middle East. Who is left?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
April 02 2019 15:51 GMT
#25390
On April 02 2019 16:17 EnDeR_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2019 07:46 xDaunt wrote:
On April 02 2019 07:24 Velr wrote:
Well, it will get pretty concrete once the wather spills all the trash back into the cities....

I still don't get the argument against "clean" energy or the funding of it. At worst we pollute the enviroment less? What is there to lose? If your not an Oil or Coal company....

Clean energy (solar/wind) is not competitive with fossil fuel energy in terms of price or efficiency. Certain applications will never be satisfied by clean energy. The reality is that we're going to have to invent a brand new form of clean energy (ie fusion or something else) to get rid of reliance on fossil fuels.


Not true as of 2018:
https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-and-levelized-cost-of-storage-2018/

From the article:
Show nested quote +
The low end levelized cost of onshore wind-generated energy is $29/MWh, compared to an average illustrative marginal cost of $36/MWh for coal. The levelized cost of utility-scale solar is nearly identical to the illustrative marginal cost of coal, at $36/MWh.


Investing in renewables is a sound economic plan no matter which way you look at it.

No, it's still true. Those figures don't account for the unique storage and grid costs attendant to renewables due to their inherent unreliability, which is why they also included the separate report on storage. Likewise, the focus on costs does not factor in the geographic requirements of solar and wind power. Converting entirely to solar and wind in the US would require setting aside an amount of land that is bigger than most states. Even partial conversion would have huge geographic requirements. Rampant NIMBYism already makes it difficult to build these facilities. Offshore wind power generation has been hugely hampered by this.

All of that said, yes, the costs of renewables has decreased hugely over the past decade such that, as Lazard points out, renewables are cost competitive with traditional fossil fuels under certain conditions. So I certainly wouldn't advocate that we discontinue expanding renewable energy generation. But renewable energy, as it exists today, is not and cannot be a complete replacement for traditional chemical energy generation for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past several pages.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 02 2019 16:08 GMT
#25391
All the arguments against switching to renewable energy are made by the least imaginative people. There is no way we are going to use all renewable power and completely ditch natural gas, oil or atomic power. But if we used renewable when possible and supplemented them with traditional power it would still make a dent in the climate change problem. This problem will require a lot of creative solutions.

We could have a nation that is powered by the god damn sun and wind. But the best argument people can make against it is that the sun goes down and the wind sometimes doesn’t blow. The unsolvable problems of our era, nighttime and a calm day.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12320 Posts
April 02 2019 16:22 GMT
#25392
One thing that we don't always say about climate change is that it won't affect all places with the same violence. The main image that pops in my head when people go "We won't be able to do anything, so we might as well do nothing" is the image of everyone dying and people shrugging about that, which is weird. But that's not necessarily what they think. Maybe they think a bunch of other people will die elsewhere, and we first world ( / white) folks are mostly going to be fine, but they don't think they can say that out loud because it's politically incorrect.
No will to live, no wish to die
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-02 16:36:05
April 02 2019 16:34 GMT
#25393
Like I said previously, I don't really care about the Joe Biden touchy feely stuff. This Ukraine stuff that has been coming out over the past week, however, is far more interesting and may be a much bigger reason why Biden should stay on the sidelines. From John Solomon:

Two years after leaving office, Joe Biden couldn’t resist the temptation last year to brag to an audience of foreign policy specialists about the time as vice president that he strong-armed Ukraine into firing its top prosecutor.

In his own words, with video cameras rolling, Biden described how he threatened Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko in March 2016 that the Obama administration would pull $1 billion in U.S. loan guarantees, sending the former Soviet republic toward insolvency, if it didn’t immediately fire Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin.

“I said, ‘You’re not getting the billion.’ I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: ‘I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money,’” Biden recalled telling Poroshenko.

“Well, son of a bitch, he got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time,” Biden told the Council on Foreign Relations event, insisting that President Obama was in on the threat.

Interviews with a half-dozen senior Ukrainian officials confirm Biden’s account, though they claim the pressure was applied over several months in late 2015 and early 2016, not just six hours of one dramatic day. Whatever the case, Poroshenko and Ukraine’s parliament obliged by ending Shokin’s tenure as prosecutor. Shokin was facing steep criticism in Ukraine, and among some U.S. officials, for not bringing enough corruption prosecutions when he was fired.

But Ukrainian officials tell me there was one crucial piece of information that Biden must have known but didn’t mention to his audience: The prosecutor he got fired was leading a wide-ranging corruption probe into the natural gas firm Burisma Holdings that employed Biden’s younger son, Hunter, as a board member.

U.S. banking records show Hunter Biden’s American-based firm, Rosemont Seneca Partners LLC, received regular transfers into one of its accounts — usually more than $166,000 a month — from Burisma from spring 2014 through fall 2015, during a period when Vice President Biden was the main U.S. official dealing with Ukraine and its tense relations with Russia.

The general prosecutor’s official file for the Burisma probe — shared with me by senior Ukrainian officials — shows prosecutors identified Hunter Biden, business partner Devon Archer and their firm, Rosemont Seneca, as potential recipients of money.

Shokin told me in written answers to questions that, before he was fired as general prosecutor, he had made “specific plans” for the investigation that “included interrogations and other crime-investigation procedures into all members of the executive board, including Hunter Biden.”

...

But then, as Biden’s 2020 campaign ramped up over the past year, Lutsenko — the Ukrainian prosecutor that Biden once hailed as a “solid” replacement for Shokin — began looking into what happened with the Burisma case that had been shut down.

Lutsenko told me that, while reviewing the Burisma investigative files, he discovered “members of the Board obtained funds as well as another U.S.-based legal entity, Rosemont Seneca Partners LLC, for consulting services.”

Lutsenko said some of the evidence he knows about in the Burisma case may interest U.S. authorities and he’d like to present that information to new U.S. Attorney General William Barr, particularly the vice president’s intervention.

“Unfortunately, Mr. Biden had correlated and connected this aid with some of the HR (personnel) issues and changes in the prosecutor’s office,” Lutsenko said.

Nazar Kholodnytskyi, the lead anti-corruption prosecutor in Lutsenko’s office, confirmed to me in an interview that part of the Burisma investigation was reopened in 2018, after Joe Biden made his remarks. “We were able to start this case again,” Kholodnytskyi said.

But he said the separate Ukrainian police agency that investigates corruption has dragged its feet in gathering evidence. “We don’t see any result from this case one year after the reopening because of some external influence,” he said, declining to be more specific.

...

But what makes Lutsenko’s account compelling is that federal authorities in America, in an entirely different case, uncovered financial records showing just how much Hunter Biden’s and Archer’s company received from Burisma while Joe Biden acted as Obama’s point man on Ukraine.

Between April 2014 and October 2015, more than $3 million was paid out of Burisma accounts to an account linked to Biden’s and Archer’s Rosemont Seneca firm, according to the financial records placed in a federal court file in Manhattan in an unrelated case against Archer.

The bank records show that, on most months when Burisma money flowed, two wire transfers of $83,333.33 each were sent to the Rosemont Seneca–connected account on the same day. The same Rosemont Seneca–linked account typically then would pay Hunter Biden one or more payments ranging from $5,000 to $25,000 each. Prosecutors reviewed internal company documents and wanted to interview Hunter Biden and Archer about why they had received such payments, according to interviews.


Source.

So to summarize: Joe Biden was appointed to be Obama's point guy in the Ukraine following the Russian invasion of the Crimea. Right afterwards, Joe Biden's son, Hunter, received a highly lucrative appointment to the board of a Ukrainian oil and gas company, Burisma. A Ukrainian prosecutor, Shokin, starts investigating Burisma for corruption. Hunter is a subject of the investigation. Joe Biden then forces the Ukraine to fire Shokin by threatening to withhold $1 billion in US funding for the Ukraine. The investigation is shut down. Joe Biden then runs his mouth off in a speech in 2018 (as an aside, how fucking stupid is this?) about what he did. The new Ukrainian prosecutor, Lutsenko, reopens the investigation on the basis of Biden's comments. A separate US investigation into a bank (what are the odds that this is Deutsch Bank?) has since revealed $3 million in shady payments from Burisma to Hunter Biden's firm, Rosemont Seneca from April 2014 to October 2015 while Hunter is on the board and while Joe Biden is the point guy for Obama in the Ukraine. Fascinating story, eh? And if nothing else, it is certainly far more compelling factually than any of the Trump/Russia nonsense.

And here's one more thing to consider. Given his extensive participation and connections in Ukrainian politics, how much of this do you think Manafort knew? What are the odds that Manafort was targeted by certain persons within the Obama administration precisely because Manafort knew of this stuff? The timing of this story dropping, and the fact that it is coming John Solomon (the same guy who was dropping stuff on the Trump/Russia nonsense), certainly doesn't seem coincidental.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 02 2019 16:40 GMT
#25394
Alternative theory: Both Biden and Biden Jr. and Manafort are grifters, but Manafort spent more than he took in and got stupid and sloppy because of it. Also he is really stupid and brazen.

Seriously, given how Manafort conducted himself during his trial and plea agreement, its pretty clear he was never all that bright to begin with. He just never ran afoul of the FBI until he joined up with a successful president campaign.

But I do agree with the point that Biden should stay on teh sidelines. Not just because of this, but because he represents some of the worst aspects of 90s era democrats.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
April 02 2019 16:42 GMT
#25395
On April 03 2019 01:40 Plansix wrote:
Alternative theory: Both Biden and Biden Jr. and Manafort are grifters, but Manafort spent more than he took in and got stupid and sloppy because of it. Also he is really stupid and brazen.

Seriously, given how Manafort conducted himself during his trial and plea agreement, its pretty clear he was never all that bright to begin with. He just never ran afoul of the FBI until he joined up with a successful president campaign.

But I do agree with the point that Biden should stay on teh sidelines. Not just because of this, but because he represents some of the worst aspects of 90s era democrats.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Manafort is clean. What was uncovered against him certainly proved that he's not.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 02 2019 16:55 GMT
#25396
On April 03 2019 01:42 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 03 2019 01:40 Plansix wrote:
Alternative theory: Both Biden and Biden Jr. and Manafort are grifters, but Manafort spent more than he took in and got stupid and sloppy because of it. Also he is really stupid and brazen.

Seriously, given how Manafort conducted himself during his trial and plea agreement, its pretty clear he was never all that bright to begin with. He just never ran afoul of the FBI until he joined up with a successful president campaign.

But I do agree with the point that Biden should stay on teh sidelines. Not just because of this, but because he represents some of the worst aspects of 90s era democrats.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Manafort is clean. What was uncovered against him certainly proved that he's not.

The money from foreign governments and companies flowing into DC has been a problem for a while now. I think we could trace it back to post 9/11 when all law enforcement's role shifted from white collar crime to fighting terrorism. Along with the agencies US taking its eye off the Eastern Europe in general. The grift in DC is real and will remain real until the parties stop feeling like they can't(or are unwilling to) police their own. But the longer this goes on in the open, the more brazen other countries are going to get with offering bribes for political outcomes.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
April 02 2019 17:37 GMT
#25397
So why is Trump now posting stuff against the release of the Mueller report when it ' totally exonerates' him and he said earlier he was fine with it being released?
Neosteel Enthusiast
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21950 Posts
April 02 2019 17:48 GMT
#25398
On April 03 2019 02:37 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
So why is Trump now posting stuff against the release of the Mueller report when it ' totally exonerates' him and he said earlier he was fine with it being released?
Someone told him what is actually in it?

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8156 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-02 17:51:26
April 02 2019 17:51 GMT
#25399
On April 03 2019 01:22 Nebuchad wrote:
One thing that we don't always say about climate change is that it won't affect all places with the same violence. The main image that pops in my head when people go "We won't be able to do anything, so we might as well do nothing" is the image of everyone dying and people shrugging about that, which is weird. But that's not necessarily what they think. Maybe they think a bunch of other people will die elsewhere, and we first world ( / white) folks are mostly going to be fine, but they don't think they can say that out loud because it's politically incorrect.


What they forget is that the worse the third world is doing, the more immigrants the first world gets. It's even weirder that the same people who doesn't want or believe in climate change are often the ones most against immigration. You'd think they'd work hard to make sure immigrants didn't have a reason to come over in the first place...but nah, wall!
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 02 2019 17:51 GMT
#25400
He knows what is in it. The reality that "Not technically not enough to be convicted of a crime" isn't a compelling argument for the voting public is starting to set in.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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