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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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United States42256 Posts
Ambitious goals that will be moderated during the process of realization of the plans isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Even if you’ll settle for good you should shoot for great.
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R Kelly might be headed to the jail cell he belongs in. CNN viewed the video and provided graphic details. Its not pretty.
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I wonder how many babies were made to his music. Gotta be one helluva story to tell the kids one day.
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On February 16 2019 08:59 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Crazy Cortez’ green new deal wanted to rebuild/retrofit EVERY building in the USA within 10 years and put high speed rail everywhere to make plane travel obsolete.But Trump wanting 5 billion for a border wall is a waste of money.
Trump going to play golf for a weekend after declaring a national emergency is a waste of money and kind of hilarious.
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Like, the only source they could get is Michael Avenatti? It is very strange that reporters go to that guy for anything at this point. He is the living avatar of the term “cautionary tale”.
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So this guy Kilimnik, who is allegedly connected to Russian intelligence and who Manafort shared polling data with, wanted to shop a Ukraine peace plan. Trumps team made changes to the Republican platform at the convention that favored russia over Ukraine. And trump publicly requested Russia's hacking assistance at a press conference. Manafort and stone worked with trump since the 70s or 80s. Manafort's slogan in 2012 for his Ukraine politician client was "Make Ukraine Great Again." Manafort owned an apartment in trump tower. This investigation is just a hoax right?
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On February 16 2019 11:44 Doodsmack wrote:So this guy Kilimnik, who is allegedly connected to Russian intelligence and who Manafort shared polling data with, wanted to shop a Ukraine peace plan. Trumps team made changes to the Republican platform at the convention that favored russia over Ukraine. And trump publicly requested Russia's hacking assistance at a press conference. Manafort and stone worked with trump since the 70s or 80s. Manafort's slogan in 2012 for his Ukraine politician client was "Make Ukraine Great Again." Manafort owned an apartment in trump tower. This investigation is just a hoax right? https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096578061619920896https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096582646786912256
So this would essentially mean the relationship that already existed in a much smaller scale was taken to the next level when suddenly Trump was a major political figure.
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On February 16 2019 11:44 Doodsmack wrote:So this guy Kilimnik, who is allegedly connected to Russian intelligence and who Manafort shared polling data with, wanted to shop a Ukraine peace plan. Trumps team made changes to the Republican platform at the convention that favored russia over Ukraine. And trump publicly requested Russia's hacking assistance at a press conference. Manafort and stone worked with trump since the 70s or 80s. Manafort's slogan in 2012 for his Ukraine politician client was "Make Ukraine Great Again." Manafort owned an apartment in trump tower. This investigation is just a hoax right? https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096578061619920896https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096582646786912256
This "weakened the platform" stuff is rediculous at this point. Here is what was changed.
"We therefore support maintaining (and, if warranted, increasing) sanctions against Russia until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored," Denman's proposed amendment read. "We also support providing lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine's armed forces and greater coordination with NATO on defense planning. Simultaneously, we call for increased financial aid for Ukraine, as well as greater assistance in the economic and humanitarian spheres, including government reform and anti-corruption."
Denman's amendment also included an introductory paragraph filled with a lot of generic rhetoric. When she proposed the amendment, a Trump national security aide named J.D. Gordon, who was in the room with the platform committee, wanted to edit it. According to Denman, Gordon got on the phone, saying he was calling "New York" to discuss possible changes.
At the behest of the Trump campaign, the platform committee took out the throat-clearing introduction and changed Denman's reference from "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to a pledge to provide "appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine." They left intact Denman's language on NATO, and on continued and possibly tougher sanctions on Russia.
The final, Trump-approved passage read: "We support maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions, together with our allies, against Russia unless and until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored. We also support providing appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and greater coordination with NATO defense planning." That was the amendment the committee approved.
In the end, nothing was taken out of the party's original draft platform on Russia. At Denman's behest, and with Trump's approval, the platform was made tougher with language pledging ongoing and possibly increased sanctions. It was also made tougher with Denman's reference to "NATO defense planning," which had not been in the original draft.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/byron-york-what-really-happened-with-the-gop-platform-and-russia
Also, it should be noted that Trump has, in fact, sold lethal weapons to Ukraine.
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On February 16 2019 10:57 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I wonder how many babies were made to his music. Gotta be one helluva story to tell the kids one day.
I always thought having sex in music is the weirdest thing ever; but on that music in particular, I just don’t understand for the life of me.
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On February 16 2019 16:05 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2019 11:44 Doodsmack wrote:So this guy Kilimnik, who is allegedly connected to Russian intelligence and who Manafort shared polling data with, wanted to shop a Ukraine peace plan. Trumps team made changes to the Republican platform at the convention that favored russia over Ukraine. And trump publicly requested Russia's hacking assistance at a press conference. Manafort and stone worked with trump since the 70s or 80s. Manafort's slogan in 2012 for his Ukraine politician client was "Make Ukraine Great Again." Manafort owned an apartment in trump tower. This investigation is just a hoax right? https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096578061619920896https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096582646786912256 This "weakened the platform" stuff is rediculous at this point. Here is what was changed. Show nested quote +"We therefore support maintaining (and, if warranted, increasing) sanctions against Russia until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored," Denman's proposed amendment read. "We also support providing lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine's armed forces and greater coordination with NATO on defense planning. Simultaneously, we call for increased financial aid for Ukraine, as well as greater assistance in the economic and humanitarian spheres, including government reform and anti-corruption."
Denman's amendment also included an introductory paragraph filled with a lot of generic rhetoric. When she proposed the amendment, a Trump national security aide named J.D. Gordon, who was in the room with the platform committee, wanted to edit it. According to Denman, Gordon got on the phone, saying he was calling "New York" to discuss possible changes.
At the behest of the Trump campaign, the platform committee took out the throat-clearing introduction and changed Denman's reference from "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to a pledge to provide "appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine." They left intact Denman's language on NATO, and on continued and possibly tougher sanctions on Russia.
The final, Trump-approved passage read: "We support maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions, together with our allies, against Russia unless and until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored. We also support providing appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and greater coordination with NATO defense planning." That was the amendment the committee approved.
In the end, nothing was taken out of the party's original draft platform on Russia. At Denman's behest, and with Trump's approval, the platform was made tougher with language pledging ongoing and possibly increased sanctions. It was also made tougher with Denman's reference to "NATO defense planning," which had not been in the original draft. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/byron-york-what-really-happened-with-the-gop-platform-and-russiaAlso, it should be noted that Trump has, in fact, sold lethal weapons to Ukraine.
It’s an opinion peace, take it with a grain of salt that lacks any manafort.
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So the guy who managed a campaign whose unofficial slogan was about locking the other candidate up ends up getting life two years after. If that ain’t the absolute definition of karma..
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On February 16 2019 18:38 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2019 16:05 Introvert wrote:On February 16 2019 11:44 Doodsmack wrote:So this guy Kilimnik, who is allegedly connected to Russian intelligence and who Manafort shared polling data with, wanted to shop a Ukraine peace plan. Trumps team made changes to the Republican platform at the convention that favored russia over Ukraine. And trump publicly requested Russia's hacking assistance at a press conference. Manafort and stone worked with trump since the 70s or 80s. Manafort's slogan in 2012 for his Ukraine politician client was "Make Ukraine Great Again." Manafort owned an apartment in trump tower. This investigation is just a hoax right? https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096578061619920896https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096582646786912256 This "weakened the platform" stuff is rediculous at this point. Here is what was changed. "We therefore support maintaining (and, if warranted, increasing) sanctions against Russia until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored," Denman's proposed amendment read. "We also support providing lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine's armed forces and greater coordination with NATO on defense planning. Simultaneously, we call for increased financial aid for Ukraine, as well as greater assistance in the economic and humanitarian spheres, including government reform and anti-corruption."
Denman's amendment also included an introductory paragraph filled with a lot of generic rhetoric. When she proposed the amendment, a Trump national security aide named J.D. Gordon, who was in the room with the platform committee, wanted to edit it. According to Denman, Gordon got on the phone, saying he was calling "New York" to discuss possible changes.
At the behest of the Trump campaign, the platform committee took out the throat-clearing introduction and changed Denman's reference from "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to a pledge to provide "appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine." They left intact Denman's language on NATO, and on continued and possibly tougher sanctions on Russia.
The final, Trump-approved passage read: "We support maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions, together with our allies, against Russia unless and until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored. We also support providing appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and greater coordination with NATO defense planning." That was the amendment the committee approved.
In the end, nothing was taken out of the party's original draft platform on Russia. At Denman's behest, and with Trump's approval, the platform was made tougher with language pledging ongoing and possibly increased sanctions. It was also made tougher with Denman's reference to "NATO defense planning," which had not been in the original draft. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/byron-york-what-really-happened-with-the-gop-platform-and-russiaAlso, it should be noted that Trump has, in fact, sold lethal weapons to Ukraine. It’s an opinion peace, take it with a grain of salt that lacks any manafort.
that's the laziest dismissal and makes it look like you didnt even read it. York is a well known Republican columnist and actually, you know, talked to people. It's under "opinion" because it's his column space.
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The fact still remains that the Trump campaign made requests to change the language around Ukraine and Russia in the Republican platform. And those changes have widely been viewed as softening the stance against Russia. The nitpicking over the language of those changes isn’t that relevant since a party platforms do not directly transition into foreign policy, unlike domestic platforms. But the reporting around it would be a boon to a dictator like Putin and his domestic PR machine.
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Read the article again, the platform was stronger than the one in 2012 and they changed one phrase (originally proposed by a single delegate), while adding some harsher ones.
The only "softening" was between drafts. It's a non story. especially considering that Trump has done the thing that was described by the first draft language.
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On February 17 2019 01:38 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2019 18:38 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 16 2019 16:05 Introvert wrote:On February 16 2019 11:44 Doodsmack wrote:So this guy Kilimnik, who is allegedly connected to Russian intelligence and who Manafort shared polling data with, wanted to shop a Ukraine peace plan. Trumps team made changes to the Republican platform at the convention that favored russia over Ukraine. And trump publicly requested Russia's hacking assistance at a press conference. Manafort and stone worked with trump since the 70s or 80s. Manafort's slogan in 2012 for his Ukraine politician client was "Make Ukraine Great Again." Manafort owned an apartment in trump tower. This investigation is just a hoax right? https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096578061619920896https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096582646786912256 This "weakened the platform" stuff is rediculous at this point. Here is what was changed. "We therefore support maintaining (and, if warranted, increasing) sanctions against Russia until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored," Denman's proposed amendment read. "We also support providing lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine's armed forces and greater coordination with NATO on defense planning. Simultaneously, we call for increased financial aid for Ukraine, as well as greater assistance in the economic and humanitarian spheres, including government reform and anti-corruption."
Denman's amendment also included an introductory paragraph filled with a lot of generic rhetoric. When she proposed the amendment, a Trump national security aide named J.D. Gordon, who was in the room with the platform committee, wanted to edit it. According to Denman, Gordon got on the phone, saying he was calling "New York" to discuss possible changes.
At the behest of the Trump campaign, the platform committee took out the throat-clearing introduction and changed Denman's reference from "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to a pledge to provide "appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine." They left intact Denman's language on NATO, and on continued and possibly tougher sanctions on Russia.
The final, Trump-approved passage read: "We support maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions, together with our allies, against Russia unless and until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored. We also support providing appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and greater coordination with NATO defense planning." That was the amendment the committee approved.
In the end, nothing was taken out of the party's original draft platform on Russia. At Denman's behest, and with Trump's approval, the platform was made tougher with language pledging ongoing and possibly increased sanctions. It was also made tougher with Denman's reference to "NATO defense planning," which had not been in the original draft. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/byron-york-what-really-happened-with-the-gop-platform-and-russiaAlso, it should be noted that Trump has, in fact, sold lethal weapons to Ukraine. It’s an opinion peace, take it with a grain of salt that lacks any manafort. that's the laziest dismissal and makes it look like you didnt even read it. York is a well known Republican columnist and actually, you know, talked to people. It's under "opinion" because it's his column space.
It’s under opinion because he be as bias as he wants. This would never pass as a featured article because it has no real foundation. I actually read it but it’s not worth my time to debate over.
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On February 17 2019 02:02 Introvert wrote:
Read the article again, the platform was stronger than the one in 2012 and they changed one phrase (originally proposed by a single delegate), while adding some harsher ones.
The only "softening" was between drafts. It's a non story. especially considering that Trump has done the thing that was described by the first draft language.
Given that between 2012 and 2016 Russia made military incursions into Ukrainian territory, I would sure as hell hope that the 2016 platform draft was stronger than the 2012 one on the Russia-Ukraine issue. Making the benchmark "was the end 2016 platform tougher than the 2012 one" is a fascinating obfuscation here.
And the article describes "proposed strengthening -> Trump campaign coordination stripped out language on lethal aid -> still strengthened." In no way is that "Trump strengthened."
(also, the conceit that stripped out an entire undisclosed preamble that is not quoted from in a draft on a subject shouldn't be perceived as weakening is fascinating to me)
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On February 17 2019 02:19 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2019 01:38 Introvert wrote:On February 16 2019 18:38 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 16 2019 16:05 Introvert wrote:On February 16 2019 11:44 Doodsmack wrote:So this guy Kilimnik, who is allegedly connected to Russian intelligence and who Manafort shared polling data with, wanted to shop a Ukraine peace plan. Trumps team made changes to the Republican platform at the convention that favored russia over Ukraine. And trump publicly requested Russia's hacking assistance at a press conference. Manafort and stone worked with trump since the 70s or 80s. Manafort's slogan in 2012 for his Ukraine politician client was "Make Ukraine Great Again." Manafort owned an apartment in trump tower. This investigation is just a hoax right? https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096578061619920896https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096582646786912256 This "weakened the platform" stuff is rediculous at this point. Here is what was changed. "We therefore support maintaining (and, if warranted, increasing) sanctions against Russia until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored," Denman's proposed amendment read. "We also support providing lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine's armed forces and greater coordination with NATO on defense planning. Simultaneously, we call for increased financial aid for Ukraine, as well as greater assistance in the economic and humanitarian spheres, including government reform and anti-corruption."
Denman's amendment also included an introductory paragraph filled with a lot of generic rhetoric. When she proposed the amendment, a Trump national security aide named J.D. Gordon, who was in the room with the platform committee, wanted to edit it. According to Denman, Gordon got on the phone, saying he was calling "New York" to discuss possible changes.
At the behest of the Trump campaign, the platform committee took out the throat-clearing introduction and changed Denman's reference from "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to a pledge to provide "appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine." They left intact Denman's language on NATO, and on continued and possibly tougher sanctions on Russia.
The final, Trump-approved passage read: "We support maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions, together with our allies, against Russia unless and until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored. We also support providing appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and greater coordination with NATO defense planning." That was the amendment the committee approved.
In the end, nothing was taken out of the party's original draft platform on Russia. At Denman's behest, and with Trump's approval, the platform was made tougher with language pledging ongoing and possibly increased sanctions. It was also made tougher with Denman's reference to "NATO defense planning," which had not been in the original draft. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/byron-york-what-really-happened-with-the-gop-platform-and-russiaAlso, it should be noted that Trump has, in fact, sold lethal weapons to Ukraine. It’s an opinion peace, take it with a grain of salt that lacks any manafort. that's the laziest dismissal and makes it look like you didnt even read it. York is a well known Republican columnist and actually, you know, talked to people. It's under "opinion" because it's his column space. It’s under opinion because he be as bias as he wants. This would never pass as a featured article because it has no real foundation. I actually read it but it’s not worth my time to debate over.
he relates what actually happened. holy...it's under opinion because he's not a reporter. yet, as a well known writer on his side, he can talk to people. In the story he quotes the delegate that added the language about lethal weapons. This is a regular occurrence all over the place, by the way.
they added all that other strong language as well, which is something no one knows because it's never part of the story.
This is willfully disbelieving something because you'd prefer that it's not true.
On February 17 2019 02:20 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2019 02:02 Introvert wrote:
Read the article again, the platform was stronger than the one in 2012 and they changed one phrase (originally proposed by a single delegate), while adding some harsher ones.
The only "softening" was between drafts. It's a non story. especially considering that Trump has done the thing that was described by the first draft language. Given that between 2012 and 2016 Russia made military incursions into Ukrainian territory, I would sure as hell hope that the 2016 platform draft was stronger than the 2012 one on the Russia-Ukraine issue. Making the benchmark "was the end 2016 platform tougher than the 2012 one" is a fascinating obfuscation here. And the article describes "proposed strengthening -> Trump campaign coordination stripped out language on lethal aid -> still strengthened." In no way is that "Trump strengthened." (also, the conceit that stripped out an entire undisclosed preamble that is not quoted from in a draft on a subject shouldn't be perceived as weakening is fascinating to me)
The idea that a delegate proposes some language to a platform, that isn't public yet, and isn't the party's official position, and that counts as a news story is amazing. Changing "lethal weapons" to "appropriate assistance" is a legitimate change.
It didn't weaken the platform because the part about lethal weapons was never in the platform.
And the article describes "proposed strengthening -> Trump campaign coordination stripped out language on lethal aid -> still strengthened." In no way is that "Trump strengthened."
in particular this part is bad. No one said Trump strengthened it. The GOP strengthened it, with input and consultation with the Trump campaign.
There is no way a change this small should be a recurring meme over two years later, but it's such a lazy talking point no one wants to let it go.
****
Here is the section titled "Russia" from the 2012 platform:
+ Show Spoiler +The heroism—and the suffering—of the people of Russia over the last century demand the world's respect. As our allies in their Great Patriotic War, they lost 28 million fighting Nazism. As our allies in spirit, they ended the Soviet terror that had consumed so many millions more. They deserve our admiration and support as they now seek to reestablish their rich national identity. We do have common imperatives: ending terrorism, combating nuclear proliferation, promoting trade, and more. To advance those causes, we urge the leaders of their government to reconsider the path they have been following: suppression of opposition parties, the press, and institutions of civil society; unprovoked invasion of the Republic of Georgia, alignment with tyrants in the Middle East; and bullying their neighbors while protecting the last Stalinist regime in Belarus. The Russian people deserve better, as we look to their full participation in the ranks of modern democracies. Russia should be granted Permanent Normal Trade Relations, but not without sanctions on Russian officials who have used the government to violate human rights. We support enactment of the Magnitsky Rule of Law Accountability Act as a condition of expanded trade relations with Russia. https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2012-republican-party-platform
but the meme will live on.
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On February 17 2019 02:28 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2019 02:19 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 17 2019 01:38 Introvert wrote:On February 16 2019 18:38 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 16 2019 16:05 Introvert wrote:On February 16 2019 11:44 Doodsmack wrote:So this guy Kilimnik, who is allegedly connected to Russian intelligence and who Manafort shared polling data with, wanted to shop a Ukraine peace plan. Trumps team made changes to the Republican platform at the convention that favored russia over Ukraine. And trump publicly requested Russia's hacking assistance at a press conference. Manafort and stone worked with trump since the 70s or 80s. Manafort's slogan in 2012 for his Ukraine politician client was "Make Ukraine Great Again." Manafort owned an apartment in trump tower. This investigation is just a hoax right? https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096578061619920896https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096582646786912256 This "weakened the platform" stuff is rediculous at this point. Here is what was changed. "We therefore support maintaining (and, if warranted, increasing) sanctions against Russia until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored," Denman's proposed amendment read. "We also support providing lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine's armed forces and greater coordination with NATO on defense planning. Simultaneously, we call for increased financial aid for Ukraine, as well as greater assistance in the economic and humanitarian spheres, including government reform and anti-corruption."
Denman's amendment also included an introductory paragraph filled with a lot of generic rhetoric. When she proposed the amendment, a Trump national security aide named J.D. Gordon, who was in the room with the platform committee, wanted to edit it. According to Denman, Gordon got on the phone, saying he was calling "New York" to discuss possible changes.
At the behest of the Trump campaign, the platform committee took out the throat-clearing introduction and changed Denman's reference from "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to a pledge to provide "appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine." They left intact Denman's language on NATO, and on continued and possibly tougher sanctions on Russia.
The final, Trump-approved passage read: "We support maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions, together with our allies, against Russia unless and until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored. We also support providing appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and greater coordination with NATO defense planning." That was the amendment the committee approved.
In the end, nothing was taken out of the party's original draft platform on Russia. At Denman's behest, and with Trump's approval, the platform was made tougher with language pledging ongoing and possibly increased sanctions. It was also made tougher with Denman's reference to "NATO defense planning," which had not been in the original draft. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/byron-york-what-really-happened-with-the-gop-platform-and-russiaAlso, it should be noted that Trump has, in fact, sold lethal weapons to Ukraine. It’s an opinion peace, take it with a grain of salt that lacks any manafort. that's the laziest dismissal and makes it look like you didnt even read it. York is a well known Republican columnist and actually, you know, talked to people. It's under "opinion" because it's his column space. It’s under opinion because he be as bias as he wants. This would never pass as a featured article because it has no real foundation. I actually read it but it’s not worth my time to debate over. he relates what actually happened. holy...it's under opinion because he's not a reporter. yet, as a well known writer on his side, he can talk to people. In the story he quotes the delegate that added the language about lethal weapons. This is a regular occurrence all over the place, by the way. they added all that other strong language as well, which is something no one knows because it's never part of the story. This is willfully disbelieving something because you'd prefer that it's not true. Show nested quote +On February 17 2019 02:20 TheTenthDoc wrote:On February 17 2019 02:02 Introvert wrote:
Read the article again, the platform was stronger than the one in 2012 and they changed one phrase (originally proposed by a single delegate), while adding some harsher ones.
The only "softening" was between drafts. It's a non story. especially considering that Trump has done the thing that was described by the first draft language. Given that between 2012 and 2016 Russia made military incursions into Ukrainian territory, I would sure as hell hope that the 2016 platform draft was stronger than the 2012 one on the Russia-Ukraine issue. Making the benchmark "was the end 2016 platform tougher than the 2012 one" is a fascinating obfuscation here. And the article describes "proposed strengthening -> Trump campaign coordination stripped out language on lethal aid -> still strengthened." In no way is that "Trump strengthened." (also, the conceit that stripped out an entire undisclosed preamble that is not quoted from in a draft on a subject shouldn't be perceived as weakening is fascinating to me) The idea that a delegate proposes some language to a platform, that isn't public yet, and isn't the party's official position, and that counts as a news story is amazing. Changing "lethal weapons" to "appropriate assistance" is a legitimate change. It didn't weaken the platform because the part about lethal weapons was never in the platform. Show nested quote +And the article describes "proposed strengthening -> Trump campaign coordination stripped out language on lethal aid -> still strengthened." In no way is that "Trump strengthened." in particular this part is bad. No one said Trump strengthened it. The GOP strengthened it, with input and consultation with the Trump campaign. There is no way a change this small should be a recurring meme almost over two years later, but it's such a lazy talking point no one wants to let it go.
You realize the article says:
At Denman's behest, and with Trump's approval, the platform was made tougher with language pledging ongoing and possibly increased sanctions.
Yet it also says:
When she proposed the amendment, a Trump national security aide named J.D. Gordon, who was in the room with the platform committee, wanted to edit it. According to Denman, Gordon got on the phone, saying he was calling "New York" to discuss possible changes.
At the behest of the Trump campaign, the platform committee took out the throat-clearing introduction and changed Denman's reference from "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to a pledge to provide "appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine."
Their intervention on the chunk was to "take out the throat-clearing introduction" (also referred to dismissively in that opinion piece, never quoted from) and change the language. To pitch this as "the Trump campaign approved making the platform tougher" rather than "the Trump campaign only approved a watered-down version of additions to the platform" is myopic at best and disingenuous at worst.
And please do yourself a favor and stop embarrassing yourself by bringing up the 2012 platform's position on Russia in general (not the Ukraine) written before Russia performed military incursions into Ukraine.
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On February 17 2019 02:49 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2019 02:28 Introvert wrote:On February 17 2019 02:19 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 17 2019 01:38 Introvert wrote:On February 16 2019 18:38 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 16 2019 16:05 Introvert wrote:On February 16 2019 11:44 Doodsmack wrote:So this guy Kilimnik, who is allegedly connected to Russian intelligence and who Manafort shared polling data with, wanted to shop a Ukraine peace plan. Trumps team made changes to the Republican platform at the convention that favored russia over Ukraine. And trump publicly requested Russia's hacking assistance at a press conference. Manafort and stone worked with trump since the 70s or 80s. Manafort's slogan in 2012 for his Ukraine politician client was "Make Ukraine Great Again." Manafort owned an apartment in trump tower. This investigation is just a hoax right? https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096578061619920896https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1096582646786912256 This "weakened the platform" stuff is rediculous at this point. Here is what was changed. "We therefore support maintaining (and, if warranted, increasing) sanctions against Russia until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored," Denman's proposed amendment read. "We also support providing lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine's armed forces and greater coordination with NATO on defense planning. Simultaneously, we call for increased financial aid for Ukraine, as well as greater assistance in the economic and humanitarian spheres, including government reform and anti-corruption."
Denman's amendment also included an introductory paragraph filled with a lot of generic rhetoric. When she proposed the amendment, a Trump national security aide named J.D. Gordon, who was in the room with the platform committee, wanted to edit it. According to Denman, Gordon got on the phone, saying he was calling "New York" to discuss possible changes.
At the behest of the Trump campaign, the platform committee took out the throat-clearing introduction and changed Denman's reference from "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to a pledge to provide "appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine." They left intact Denman's language on NATO, and on continued and possibly tougher sanctions on Russia.
The final, Trump-approved passage read: "We support maintaining and, if warranted, increasing sanctions, together with our allies, against Russia unless and until Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are fully restored. We also support providing appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine and greater coordination with NATO defense planning." That was the amendment the committee approved.
In the end, nothing was taken out of the party's original draft platform on Russia. At Denman's behest, and with Trump's approval, the platform was made tougher with language pledging ongoing and possibly increased sanctions. It was also made tougher with Denman's reference to "NATO defense planning," which had not been in the original draft. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/byron-york-what-really-happened-with-the-gop-platform-and-russiaAlso, it should be noted that Trump has, in fact, sold lethal weapons to Ukraine. It’s an opinion peace, take it with a grain of salt that lacks any manafort. that's the laziest dismissal and makes it look like you didnt even read it. York is a well known Republican columnist and actually, you know, talked to people. It's under "opinion" because it's his column space. It’s under opinion because he be as bias as he wants. This would never pass as a featured article because it has no real foundation. I actually read it but it’s not worth my time to debate over. he relates what actually happened. holy...it's under opinion because he's not a reporter. yet, as a well known writer on his side, he can talk to people. In the story he quotes the delegate that added the language about lethal weapons. This is a regular occurrence all over the place, by the way. they added all that other strong language as well, which is something no one knows because it's never part of the story. This is willfully disbelieving something because you'd prefer that it's not true. On February 17 2019 02:20 TheTenthDoc wrote:On February 17 2019 02:02 Introvert wrote:
Read the article again, the platform was stronger than the one in 2012 and they changed one phrase (originally proposed by a single delegate), while adding some harsher ones.
The only "softening" was between drafts. It's a non story. especially considering that Trump has done the thing that was described by the first draft language. Given that between 2012 and 2016 Russia made military incursions into Ukrainian territory, I would sure as hell hope that the 2016 platform draft was stronger than the 2012 one on the Russia-Ukraine issue. Making the benchmark "was the end 2016 platform tougher than the 2012 one" is a fascinating obfuscation here. And the article describes "proposed strengthening -> Trump campaign coordination stripped out language on lethal aid -> still strengthened." In no way is that "Trump strengthened." (also, the conceit that stripped out an entire undisclosed preamble that is not quoted from in a draft on a subject shouldn't be perceived as weakening is fascinating to me) The idea that a delegate proposes some language to a platform, that isn't public yet, and isn't the party's official position, and that counts as a news story is amazing. Changing "lethal weapons" to "appropriate assistance" is a legitimate change. It didn't weaken the platform because the part about lethal weapons was never in the platform. And the article describes "proposed strengthening -> Trump campaign coordination stripped out language on lethal aid -> still strengthened." In no way is that "Trump strengthened." in particular this part is bad. No one said Trump strengthened it. The GOP strengthened it, with input and consultation with the Trump campaign. There is no way a change this small should be a recurring meme almost over two years later, but it's such a lazy talking point no one wants to let it go. You realize the article says: Show nested quote +At Denman's behest, and with Trump's approval, the platform was made tougher with language pledging ongoing and possibly increased sanctions. Yet it also says: Show nested quote +When she proposed the amendment, a Trump national security aide named J.D. Gordon, who was in the room with the platform committee, wanted to edit it. According to Denman, Gordon got on the phone, saying he was calling "New York" to discuss possible changes.
At the behest of the Trump campaign, the platform committee took out the throat-clearing introduction and changed Denman's reference from "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to a pledge to provide "appropriate assistance to the armed forces of Ukraine." Their intervention on the chunk was to "take out the throat-clearing introduction" (also referred to dismissively in that opinion piece, never quoted from) and change the language. To pitch this as "the Trump campaign approved making the platform tougher" rather than "the Trump campaign only approved a watered-down version of additions to the platform" is myopic at best and disingenuous at worst. And please do yourself a favor and stop embarrassing yourself by bringing up the 2012 platform's position on Russia in general (not the Ukraine) written before Russia performed military incursions into Ukraine.
Look at 2012 if you want a throat clearing introduction.
To ignore everything else in there then say it was "watered down" when the SINGLE policy language change requested by the Trump campaign was "lethal weapons" to "appropriate assistance" is myopic at best and disingenuous at worst.
+ Show Spoiler +Especially in light of the fact that this administration has provided lethal weapons to Ukraine.
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