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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On February 09 2019 23:36 explosivekangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 22:38 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:25 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 21:52 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 21:23 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 20:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 20:38 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 03:56 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn’t say the fun is motivated by hate of a specific group of people. Not at all. The “fun” is found in watching folks live up to the expectations you have of them. Like the people who claim they defend free speech at all costs, but instantly disappear when it comes to defending an NFL player’s right to protest during a mandated playing of the national anthem. It is stratifying to be right, even if being right means folks are just as terrible as you feared they were.
Personally, I don’t hate conservatives or care what they do. My issue with conservatives is that they are constantly trying to screw me over through their policies and political goals. Which would be fine on its own. Politics is a game of winners and losers. But part of their tactic is to adopt this faux grievance and oppression by the “The Left”, while also attacking any grievance that people have with conservative policies. And that fucking sucks.
So sometimes it is enjoyable to watch them twist in the wind trying to square being all about “Law and Order” while attacking the FBI. Or wanting freedom of association while also arguing that unions have to represent non-union employees. It’s a small comfort. Well I'd wager most conservatives don't hate liberals or care what they do. Their issue is that liberals are constantly trying to screw them over with their policies. And part of their tactic is to paint everyone on the right as racist, bigoted etc. The GOP is more corrupt than the Democratic party, but I really don't think their voters are anymore evil. Oh I love this. Please name the policies liberals favor that screw over conservatives. I'm not one but it's really not hard to see things from other perspectives: - Higher taxes -> a lot of people don't like it, not just the rich - Increasing regulations -> hurts coorporations - Being more open to immigation -> low skilled workers are displaced - Increasing minimum wages -> hurts small business owners - Taxing carbon emissions -> loss of jobs in the mining industry - A the fiscally Conservative, funny how the people they vote for keep increasing the deficit by handing out tax cut to corperations and somehow it still hasn't trickled down. The government needs money to pay for stuff, hence taxes. If you have to worry about your money on a regular basis your unlikely to be effected by a tax increase. - yes regulations hurt corporations ability to exploit employers and customers. Are you saying the 2007 bank crisis was a good thing according to conservatives? Because shit like that is why we have regulations. -https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/541321716/fact-check-have-low-skilled-immigrants-taken-american-jobs?t=1549716293446 Seems like the jury is very much still out on that one. - Not being payed a liveable wage also hurts people, a lot more. Plus there is the amount of subsidising of companies who pay less then a liveable wage through government assistance keeping their workforce alive (that is payed for through taxes). Thought conservatives were against that aswell? - less jobs in the mining industry or less planet to live on. Gee tough choice. The conservative doesn't get to destroy the planet for 7.5 billion other people. I know, lets sell some more 'clean coal. - Trickle down economics doesn't work and the recent tax cut largely favors coorporations and the wealthy. But this does not negate that middle class earners also received tax cuts. - Generally yes, and personally I'm in favor of tight regulations. Greedy corporate executives, however trashy they are, have the right to vote for their self interest. - Sure, it is up to debate, which means there are people reaching opposite conclusions and acting based on that. - As far as I know conservatives are generally in favor of cutting social security. There's an argument that social security enables corporations paying these low wages. - People don't want to lose their jobs. You asked me to name policies that screw conservatives over, it looks like we can agree that executives, small business owners, coal workers, and other groups that tend to identify as 'conservative' are disfavored by liberal policies. I consider myself a centrist and I do think that liberal policies tend to be altruistic while conservative policies tend to be selfish. But people generally vote for their self interest and they have a right to do so. Your aware the middle and lower class tax cuts are set to expire and turn into a tax increase to pay for the corporate tax cuts that will not expire to make the whole thing 'revenue neutral' after 10 years right? giving you 10 dollars today and in return taking 5 dollars from you every month starting next year is not me giving you a gift of 10 dollars. Those mine workers afraid to lose their job were offered training to get another job as something else. And they a chose to become miners 'like their dads before them'. The preservation of the world for more then 7 billion people is not beholding to the moronic. If 'the conservative' is being consistently screwed over by policies designed to stop exploitation (be it of people or the planet) then maybe 'the conservative' should think about stopping exploiting people. I'm glad liberals didn't stop to think about the poor conservatives in their fight to end slavery. Or we would still be reading about how the poor cotton farmer can't survive without a plantation full of black people working for him for free. And I see no reason why they should stop this time. Look I'm not arguing for conservative policies. All I'm saying is that most conservatives are just normal people voting for their self interest.
Normal people who think themselves to be voting for their self interest*
Whether or not that's actually true is the basis for the objections above.
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On February 09 2019 23:36 explosivekangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 22:38 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:25 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 21:52 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 21:23 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 20:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 20:38 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 03:56 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn’t say the fun is motivated by hate of a specific group of people. Not at all. The “fun” is found in watching folks live up to the expectations you have of them. Like the people who claim they defend free speech at all costs, but instantly disappear when it comes to defending an NFL player’s right to protest during a mandated playing of the national anthem. It is stratifying to be right, even if being right means folks are just as terrible as you feared they were.
Personally, I don’t hate conservatives or care what they do. My issue with conservatives is that they are constantly trying to screw me over through their policies and political goals. Which would be fine on its own. Politics is a game of winners and losers. But part of their tactic is to adopt this faux grievance and oppression by the “The Left”, while also attacking any grievance that people have with conservative policies. And that fucking sucks.
So sometimes it is enjoyable to watch them twist in the wind trying to square being all about “Law and Order” while attacking the FBI. Or wanting freedom of association while also arguing that unions have to represent non-union employees. It’s a small comfort. Well I'd wager most conservatives don't hate liberals or care what they do. Their issue is that liberals are constantly trying to screw them over with their policies. And part of their tactic is to paint everyone on the right as racist, bigoted etc. The GOP is more corrupt than the Democratic party, but I really don't think their voters are anymore evil. Oh I love this. Please name the policies liberals favor that screw over conservatives. I'm not one but it's really not hard to see things from other perspectives: - Higher taxes -> a lot of people don't like it, not just the rich - Increasing regulations -> hurts coorporations - Being more open to immigation -> low skilled workers are displaced - Increasing minimum wages -> hurts small business owners - Taxing carbon emissions -> loss of jobs in the mining industry - A the fiscally Conservative, funny how the people they vote for keep increasing the deficit by handing out tax cut to corperations and somehow it still hasn't trickled down. The government needs money to pay for stuff, hence taxes. If you have to worry about your money on a regular basis your unlikely to be effected by a tax increase. - yes regulations hurt corporations ability to exploit employers and customers. Are you saying the 2007 bank crisis was a good thing according to conservatives? Because shit like that is why we have regulations. -https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/541321716/fact-check-have-low-skilled-immigrants-taken-american-jobs?t=1549716293446 Seems like the jury is very much still out on that one. - Not being payed a liveable wage also hurts people, a lot more. Plus there is the amount of subsidising of companies who pay less then a liveable wage through government assistance keeping their workforce alive (that is payed for through taxes). Thought conservatives were against that aswell? - less jobs in the mining industry or less planet to live on. Gee tough choice. The conservative doesn't get to destroy the planet for 7.5 billion other people. I know, lets sell some more 'clean coal. - Trickle down economics doesn't work and the recent tax cut largely favors coorporations and the wealthy. But this does not negate that middle class earners also received tax cuts. - Generally yes, and personally I'm in favor of tight regulations. Greedy corporate executives, however trashy they are, have the right to vote for their self interest. - Sure, it is up to debate, which means there are people reaching opposite conclusions and acting based on that. - As far as I know conservatives are generally in favor of cutting social security. There's an argument that social security enables corporations paying these low wages. - People don't want to lose their jobs. You asked me to name policies that screw conservatives over, it looks like we can agree that executives, small business owners, coal workers, and other groups that tend to identify as 'conservative' are disfavored by liberal policies. I consider myself a centrist and I do think that liberal policies tend to be altruistic while conservative policies tend to be selfish. But people generally vote for their self interest and they have a right to do so. Your aware the middle and lower class tax cuts are set to expire and turn into a tax increase to pay for the corporate tax cuts that will not expire to make the whole thing 'revenue neutral' after 10 years right? giving you 10 dollars today and in return taking 5 dollars from you every month starting next year is not me giving you a gift of 10 dollars. Those mine workers afraid to lose their job were offered training to get another job as something else. And they a chose to become miners 'like their dads before them'. The preservation of the world for more then 7 billion people is not beholding to the moronic. If 'the conservative' is being consistently screwed over by policies designed to stop exploitation (be it of people or the planet) then maybe 'the conservative' should think about stopping exploiting people. I'm glad liberals didn't stop to think about the poor conservatives in their fight to end slavery. Or we would still be reading about how the poor cotton farmer can't survive without a plantation full of black people working for him for free. And I see no reason why they should stop this time. Look I'm not arguing for conservative policies. All I'm saying is that most conservatives are just normal people voting for their self interest.
I'd argue that they are normal people who got conned into voting against their own self interest.
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Trump is not replying to senators on the Khashoggi killing, possibly breaking the law by not doing so. Anything to help a paying friend I guess.
The White House on Friday signaled President Donald Trump will ignore a request from a bipartisan group of senators to investigate and report on the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi’s brutal killing.
Senators on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in October invoked the Global Magnitsky Act of 2016 in response to Khashoggi’s killing, which gave the president 120 days to provide Congress with a report on his findings and how he plans to react.
The letter concerning Khashoggi, which was sent to Trump in October, was spearheaded by Sen. Bob Corker, who was the Senate Foreign Relations Committee chairman at the time, and Sen. Bob Menendez, the committee’s ranking member.
Friday marked the deadline for Trump to offer his findings and plan of action, but it appears he will not honor the request.
The official added, “Consistent with the previous administration’s position and the constitutional separation of powers, the president maintains his discretion to decline to act on congressional committee requests when appropriate. The US government will continue to consult with Congress and work to hold accountable those responsible for Jamal Khashoggi’s killing.”
Critics say Trump is ignoring legal obligations and breaking the law by refusing to offer a report.
Juan Pachon, a spokesman for Menendez, in response to the White House statement said, “The law is clear. It requires a determination and report in response to the letter we sent … The president has no discretion here. He’s either complying with the law or breaking it.”
https://www.businessinsider.nl/trump-declines-bipartisan-investigate-khashoggi-killing-2019-2/
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On February 09 2019 23:50 JimmiC wrote:
The right in the states is confusing because I'm not sure that Trump is truly "right" when it comes to politics.
Left and right are not the most clearly defined categories. But what are you missing from trump to declare him as a rightwing politician? He certainly got the nationalism and the religious conservativism (he doesnt seem to be religious himself, but his politics are nonetheless). He makes politics for the elite. What else does he need to be "right" from your perspective?
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On February 09 2019 22:38 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 22:25 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 21:52 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 21:23 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 20:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 20:38 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 03:56 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn’t say the fun is motivated by hate of a specific group of people. Not at all. The “fun” is found in watching folks live up to the expectations you have of them. Like the people who claim they defend free speech at all costs, but instantly disappear when it comes to defending an NFL player’s right to protest during a mandated playing of the national anthem. It is stratifying to be right, even if being right means folks are just as terrible as you feared they were.
Personally, I don’t hate conservatives or care what they do. My issue with conservatives is that they are constantly trying to screw me over through their policies and political goals. Which would be fine on its own. Politics is a game of winners and losers. But part of their tactic is to adopt this faux grievance and oppression by the “The Left”, while also attacking any grievance that people have with conservative policies. And that fucking sucks.
So sometimes it is enjoyable to watch them twist in the wind trying to square being all about “Law and Order” while attacking the FBI. Or wanting freedom of association while also arguing that unions have to represent non-union employees. It’s a small comfort. Well I'd wager most conservatives don't hate liberals or care what they do. Their issue is that liberals are constantly trying to screw them over with their policies. And part of their tactic is to paint everyone on the right as racist, bigoted etc. The GOP is more corrupt than the Democratic party, but I really don't think their voters are anymore evil. Oh I love this. Please name the policies liberals favor that screw over conservatives. I'm not one but it's really not hard to see things from other perspectives: - Higher taxes -> a lot of people don't like it, not just the rich - Increasing regulations -> hurts coorporations - Being more open to immigation -> low skilled workers are displaced - Increasing minimum wages -> hurts small business owners - Taxing carbon emissions -> loss of jobs in the mining industry - A the fiscally Conservative, funny how the people they vote for keep increasing the deficit by handing out tax cut to corperations and somehow it still hasn't trickled down. The government needs money to pay for stuff, hence taxes. If you have to worry about your money on a regular basis your unlikely to be effected by a tax increase. - yes regulations hurt corporations ability to exploit employers and customers. Are you saying the 2007 bank crisis was a good thing according to conservatives? Because shit like that is why we have regulations. -https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/541321716/fact-check-have-low-skilled-immigrants-taken-american-jobs?t=1549716293446 Seems like the jury is very much still out on that one. - Not being payed a liveable wage also hurts people, a lot more. Plus there is the amount of subsidising of companies who pay less then a liveable wage through government assistance keeping their workforce alive (that is payed for through taxes). Thought conservatives were against that aswell? - less jobs in the mining industry or less planet to live on. Gee tough choice. The conservative doesn't get to destroy the planet for 7.5 billion other people. I know, lets sell some more 'clean coal. - Trickle down economics doesn't work and the recent tax cut largely favors coorporations and the wealthy. But this does not negate that middle class earners also received tax cuts. - Generally yes, and personally I'm in favor of tight regulations. Greedy corporate executives, however trashy they are, have the right to vote for their self interest. - Sure, it is up to debate, which means there are people reaching opposite conclusions and acting based on that. - As far as I know conservatives are generally in favor of cutting social security. There's an argument that social security enables corporations paying these low wages. - People don't want to lose their jobs. You asked me to name policies that screw conservatives over, it looks like we can agree that executives, small business owners, coal workers, and other groups that tend to identify as 'conservative' are disfavored by liberal policies. I consider myself a centrist and I do think that liberal policies tend to be altruistic while conservative policies tend to be selfish. But people generally vote for their self interest and they have a right to do so. Your aware the middle and lower class tax cuts are set to expire and turn into a tax increase to pay for the corporate tax cuts that will not expire to make the whole thing 'revenue neutral' after 10 years right? giving you 10 dollars today and in return taking 5 dollars from you every month starting next year is not me giving you a gift of 10 dollars. Those mine workers afraid to lose their job were offered training to get another job as something else. And they a chose to become miners 'like their dads before them'. The preservation of the world for more then 7 billion people is not beholding to the moronic.If 'the conservative' is being consistently screwed over by policies designed to stop exploitation (be it of people or the planet) then maybe 'the conservative' should think about stopping exploiting people. I'm glad liberals didn't stop to think about the poor conservatives in their fight to end slavery. Or we would still be reading about how the poor cotton farmer can't survive without a plantation full of black people working for him for free. And I see no reason why they should stop this time.
This is a pretty callous viewpoint of the plight of the coal worker. Having this viewpoint demonstrates that you have no idea what it’s like to be in this situation. These coal mining towns are not bustling centers of trade and education with a large, diversified populace; they are small villages with a few hundred people tops whose insular existence and contribution to the nation have been solely dependent on coal mining for the past 175-200 years. There is no reason for these villages to exist without coal; even if the populace were more willing to be retrained, they would learn that their old village is literally worthless for the skills they have now and have to relocate. Forcing a village of people to abandon their way of life and relocate doesn’t stop being monstrous and painful just because the reasons are more ethical than they were in the past, have some empathy.
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nvm idk if maybe i just got trolled.
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On February 10 2019 00:43 Ryzel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 22:38 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:25 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 21:52 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 21:23 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 20:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 20:38 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 03:56 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn’t say the fun is motivated by hate of a specific group of people. Not at all. The “fun” is found in watching folks live up to the expectations you have of them. Like the people who claim they defend free speech at all costs, but instantly disappear when it comes to defending an NFL player’s right to protest during a mandated playing of the national anthem. It is stratifying to be right, even if being right means folks are just as terrible as you feared they were.
Personally, I don’t hate conservatives or care what they do. My issue with conservatives is that they are constantly trying to screw me over through their policies and political goals. Which would be fine on its own. Politics is a game of winners and losers. But part of their tactic is to adopt this faux grievance and oppression by the “The Left”, while also attacking any grievance that people have with conservative policies. And that fucking sucks.
So sometimes it is enjoyable to watch them twist in the wind trying to square being all about “Law and Order” while attacking the FBI. Or wanting freedom of association while also arguing that unions have to represent non-union employees. It’s a small comfort. Well I'd wager most conservatives don't hate liberals or care what they do. Their issue is that liberals are constantly trying to screw them over with their policies. And part of their tactic is to paint everyone on the right as racist, bigoted etc. The GOP is more corrupt than the Democratic party, but I really don't think their voters are anymore evil. Oh I love this. Please name the policies liberals favor that screw over conservatives. I'm not one but it's really not hard to see things from other perspectives: - Higher taxes -> a lot of people don't like it, not just the rich - Increasing regulations -> hurts coorporations - Being more open to immigation -> low skilled workers are displaced - Increasing minimum wages -> hurts small business owners - Taxing carbon emissions -> loss of jobs in the mining industry - A the fiscally Conservative, funny how the people they vote for keep increasing the deficit by handing out tax cut to corperations and somehow it still hasn't trickled down. The government needs money to pay for stuff, hence taxes. If you have to worry about your money on a regular basis your unlikely to be effected by a tax increase. - yes regulations hurt corporations ability to exploit employers and customers. Are you saying the 2007 bank crisis was a good thing according to conservatives? Because shit like that is why we have regulations. -https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/541321716/fact-check-have-low-skilled-immigrants-taken-american-jobs?t=1549716293446 Seems like the jury is very much still out on that one. - Not being payed a liveable wage also hurts people, a lot more. Plus there is the amount of subsidising of companies who pay less then a liveable wage through government assistance keeping their workforce alive (that is payed for through taxes). Thought conservatives were against that aswell? - less jobs in the mining industry or less planet to live on. Gee tough choice. The conservative doesn't get to destroy the planet for 7.5 billion other people. I know, lets sell some more 'clean coal. - Trickle down economics doesn't work and the recent tax cut largely favors coorporations and the wealthy. But this does not negate that middle class earners also received tax cuts. - Generally yes, and personally I'm in favor of tight regulations. Greedy corporate executives, however trashy they are, have the right to vote for their self interest. - Sure, it is up to debate, which means there are people reaching opposite conclusions and acting based on that. - As far as I know conservatives are generally in favor of cutting social security. There's an argument that social security enables corporations paying these low wages. - People don't want to lose their jobs. You asked me to name policies that screw conservatives over, it looks like we can agree that executives, small business owners, coal workers, and other groups that tend to identify as 'conservative' are disfavored by liberal policies. I consider myself a centrist and I do think that liberal policies tend to be altruistic while conservative policies tend to be selfish. But people generally vote for their self interest and they have a right to do so. Your aware the middle and lower class tax cuts are set to expire and turn into a tax increase to pay for the corporate tax cuts that will not expire to make the whole thing 'revenue neutral' after 10 years right? giving you 10 dollars today and in return taking 5 dollars from you every month starting next year is not me giving you a gift of 10 dollars. Those mine workers afraid to lose their job were offered training to get another job as something else. And they a chose to become miners 'like their dads before them'. The preservation of the world for more then 7 billion people is not beholding to the moronic.If 'the conservative' is being consistently screwed over by policies designed to stop exploitation (be it of people or the planet) then maybe 'the conservative' should think about stopping exploiting people. I'm glad liberals didn't stop to think about the poor conservatives in their fight to end slavery. Or we would still be reading about how the poor cotton farmer can't survive without a plantation full of black people working for him for free. And I see no reason why they should stop this time. This is a pretty callous viewpoint of the plight of the coal worker. Having this viewpoint demonstrates that you have no idea what it’s like to be in this situation. These coal mining towns are not bustling centers of trade and education with a large, diversified populace; they are small villages with a few hundred people tops whose insular existence and contribution to the nation have been solely dependent on coal mining for the past 175-200 years. There is no reason for these villages to exist without coal; even if the populace were more willing to be retrained, they would learn that their old village is literally worthless for the skills they have now and have to relocate. Forcing a village of people to abandon their way of life and relocate doesn’t stop being monstrous and painful just because the reasons are more ethical than they were in the past, have some empathy. Yeah its callous, that's life.
I'm not saying these people should be abandoned and left for themselves, the government should be there to help them transition into something. It should have been there over a decade ago to start a slower and less painful process.
But we can't keep all the coal mines open indefinitely just to avoid hurting the feelings of wanne be coal miners.
Sure call it callous, I ask. What would you do instead, considering the mine is likely to close soon regardless because of dwindling demand?
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United States43905 Posts
On February 09 2019 23:36 explosivekangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 22:38 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:25 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 21:52 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 21:23 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 20:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 20:38 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 03:56 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn’t say the fun is motivated by hate of a specific group of people. Not at all. The “fun” is found in watching folks live up to the expectations you have of them. Like the people who claim they defend free speech at all costs, but instantly disappear when it comes to defending an NFL player’s right to protest during a mandated playing of the national anthem. It is stratifying to be right, even if being right means folks are just as terrible as you feared they were.
Personally, I don’t hate conservatives or care what they do. My issue with conservatives is that they are constantly trying to screw me over through their policies and political goals. Which would be fine on its own. Politics is a game of winners and losers. But part of their tactic is to adopt this faux grievance and oppression by the “The Left”, while also attacking any grievance that people have with conservative policies. And that fucking sucks.
So sometimes it is enjoyable to watch them twist in the wind trying to square being all about “Law and Order” while attacking the FBI. Or wanting freedom of association while also arguing that unions have to represent non-union employees. It’s a small comfort. Well I'd wager most conservatives don't hate liberals or care what they do. Their issue is that liberals are constantly trying to screw them over with their policies. And part of their tactic is to paint everyone on the right as racist, bigoted etc. The GOP is more corrupt than the Democratic party, but I really don't think their voters are anymore evil. Oh I love this. Please name the policies liberals favor that screw over conservatives. I'm not one but it's really not hard to see things from other perspectives: - Higher taxes -> a lot of people don't like it, not just the rich - Increasing regulations -> hurts coorporations - Being more open to immigation -> low skilled workers are displaced - Increasing minimum wages -> hurts small business owners - Taxing carbon emissions -> loss of jobs in the mining industry - A the fiscally Conservative, funny how the people they vote for keep increasing the deficit by handing out tax cut to corperations and somehow it still hasn't trickled down. The government needs money to pay for stuff, hence taxes. If you have to worry about your money on a regular basis your unlikely to be effected by a tax increase. - yes regulations hurt corporations ability to exploit employers and customers. Are you saying the 2007 bank crisis was a good thing according to conservatives? Because shit like that is why we have regulations. -https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/541321716/fact-check-have-low-skilled-immigrants-taken-american-jobs?t=1549716293446 Seems like the jury is very much still out on that one. - Not being payed a liveable wage also hurts people, a lot more. Plus there is the amount of subsidising of companies who pay less then a liveable wage through government assistance keeping their workforce alive (that is payed for through taxes). Thought conservatives were against that aswell? - less jobs in the mining industry or less planet to live on. Gee tough choice. The conservative doesn't get to destroy the planet for 7.5 billion other people. I know, lets sell some more 'clean coal. - Trickle down economics doesn't work and the recent tax cut largely favors coorporations and the wealthy. But this does not negate that middle class earners also received tax cuts. - Generally yes, and personally I'm in favor of tight regulations. Greedy corporate executives, however trashy they are, have the right to vote for their self interest. - Sure, it is up to debate, which means there are people reaching opposite conclusions and acting based on that. - As far as I know conservatives are generally in favor of cutting social security. There's an argument that social security enables corporations paying these low wages. - People don't want to lose their jobs. You asked me to name policies that screw conservatives over, it looks like we can agree that executives, small business owners, coal workers, and other groups that tend to identify as 'conservative' are disfavored by liberal policies. I consider myself a centrist and I do think that liberal policies tend to be altruistic while conservative policies tend to be selfish. But people generally vote for their self interest and they have a right to do so. Your aware the middle and lower class tax cuts are set to expire and turn into a tax increase to pay for the corporate tax cuts that will not expire to make the whole thing 'revenue neutral' after 10 years right? giving you 10 dollars today and in return taking 5 dollars from you every month starting next year is not me giving you a gift of 10 dollars. Those mine workers afraid to lose their job were offered training to get another job as something else. And they a chose to become miners 'like their dads before them'. The preservation of the world for more then 7 billion people is not beholding to the moronic. If 'the conservative' is being consistently screwed over by policies designed to stop exploitation (be it of people or the planet) then maybe 'the conservative' should think about stopping exploiting people. I'm glad liberals didn't stop to think about the poor conservatives in their fight to end slavery. Or we would still be reading about how the poor cotton farmer can't survive without a plantation full of black people working for him for free. And I see no reason why they should stop this time. Look I'm not arguing for conservative policies. All I'm saying is that most conservatives are just normal people voting for their self interest.
If they were voting for their self interest they wouldn't be conservative voters.
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The thing we are planning to do in Germany (because we have to do the same structural changes to get rid of coal), and which has historically worked pretty well with similar structural changes, is to do stuff that the government would do anyways in those areas instead of in other places. So, for example, a new scientific institute or government agency will be placed in an area that used to do coal mining. Also money will be spent on general infrastructure in those areas.
Basically, using public funds to help the areas that will be struggling due to the intended structural changes by providing new reasons for people to be there. This helps preventing those areas from becoming desolate wastelands, and might actively change those areas from coal mining towns to be other kinds of clusters.
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United States43905 Posts
On February 10 2019 00:43 Ryzel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 22:38 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:25 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 21:52 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 21:23 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 20:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 20:38 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 03:56 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn’t say the fun is motivated by hate of a specific group of people. Not at all. The “fun” is found in watching folks live up to the expectations you have of them. Like the people who claim they defend free speech at all costs, but instantly disappear when it comes to defending an NFL player’s right to protest during a mandated playing of the national anthem. It is stratifying to be right, even if being right means folks are just as terrible as you feared they were.
Personally, I don’t hate conservatives or care what they do. My issue with conservatives is that they are constantly trying to screw me over through their policies and political goals. Which would be fine on its own. Politics is a game of winners and losers. But part of their tactic is to adopt this faux grievance and oppression by the “The Left”, while also attacking any grievance that people have with conservative policies. And that fucking sucks.
So sometimes it is enjoyable to watch them twist in the wind trying to square being all about “Law and Order” while attacking the FBI. Or wanting freedom of association while also arguing that unions have to represent non-union employees. It’s a small comfort. Well I'd wager most conservatives don't hate liberals or care what they do. Their issue is that liberals are constantly trying to screw them over with their policies. And part of their tactic is to paint everyone on the right as racist, bigoted etc. The GOP is more corrupt than the Democratic party, but I really don't think their voters are anymore evil. Oh I love this. Please name the policies liberals favor that screw over conservatives. I'm not one but it's really not hard to see things from other perspectives: - Higher taxes -> a lot of people don't like it, not just the rich - Increasing regulations -> hurts coorporations - Being more open to immigation -> low skilled workers are displaced - Increasing minimum wages -> hurts small business owners - Taxing carbon emissions -> loss of jobs in the mining industry - A the fiscally Conservative, funny how the people they vote for keep increasing the deficit by handing out tax cut to corperations and somehow it still hasn't trickled down. The government needs money to pay for stuff, hence taxes. If you have to worry about your money on a regular basis your unlikely to be effected by a tax increase. - yes regulations hurt corporations ability to exploit employers and customers. Are you saying the 2007 bank crisis was a good thing according to conservatives? Because shit like that is why we have regulations. -https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/541321716/fact-check-have-low-skilled-immigrants-taken-american-jobs?t=1549716293446 Seems like the jury is very much still out on that one. - Not being payed a liveable wage also hurts people, a lot more. Plus there is the amount of subsidising of companies who pay less then a liveable wage through government assistance keeping their workforce alive (that is payed for through taxes). Thought conservatives were against that aswell? - less jobs in the mining industry or less planet to live on. Gee tough choice. The conservative doesn't get to destroy the planet for 7.5 billion other people. I know, lets sell some more 'clean coal. - Trickle down economics doesn't work and the recent tax cut largely favors coorporations and the wealthy. But this does not negate that middle class earners also received tax cuts. - Generally yes, and personally I'm in favor of tight regulations. Greedy corporate executives, however trashy they are, have the right to vote for their self interest. - Sure, it is up to debate, which means there are people reaching opposite conclusions and acting based on that. - As far as I know conservatives are generally in favor of cutting social security. There's an argument that social security enables corporations paying these low wages. - People don't want to lose their jobs. You asked me to name policies that screw conservatives over, it looks like we can agree that executives, small business owners, coal workers, and other groups that tend to identify as 'conservative' are disfavored by liberal policies. I consider myself a centrist and I do think that liberal policies tend to be altruistic while conservative policies tend to be selfish. But people generally vote for their self interest and they have a right to do so. Your aware the middle and lower class tax cuts are set to expire and turn into a tax increase to pay for the corporate tax cuts that will not expire to make the whole thing 'revenue neutral' after 10 years right? giving you 10 dollars today and in return taking 5 dollars from you every month starting next year is not me giving you a gift of 10 dollars. Those mine workers afraid to lose their job were offered training to get another job as something else. And they a chose to become miners 'like their dads before them'. The preservation of the world for more then 7 billion people is not beholding to the moronic.If 'the conservative' is being consistently screwed over by policies designed to stop exploitation (be it of people or the planet) then maybe 'the conservative' should think about stopping exploiting people. I'm glad liberals didn't stop to think about the poor conservatives in their fight to end slavery. Or we would still be reading about how the poor cotton farmer can't survive without a plantation full of black people working for him for free. And I see no reason why they should stop this time. This is a pretty callous viewpoint of the plight of the coal worker. Having this viewpoint demonstrates that you have no idea what it’s like to be in this situation. These coal mining towns are not bustling centers of trade and education with a large, diversified populace; they are small villages with a few hundred people tops whose insular existence and contribution to the nation have been solely dependent on coal mining for the past 175-200 years. There is no reason for these villages to exist without coal; even if the populace were more willing to be retrained, they would learn that their old village is literally worthless for the skills they have now and have to relocate. Forcing a village of people to abandon their way of life and relocate doesn’t stop being monstrous and painful just because the reasons are more ethical than they were in the past, have some empathy.
That's what capitalism is. These villages have been judged to be surplus to the requirements of capitalism and therefore the people living in them have no economic value which within a capitalist system means they have no value at all. Capitalism teaches that their salvage value, if any, should be extracted from them (perhaps they could be profitably trafficked, used for organs, or paid below minimum wage in sweatshops) and that what remains should be left to decay.
What would help them is a little bit of socialism. But they don't like the sound of that.
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On February 10 2019 01:00 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2019 00:43 Ryzel wrote:On February 09 2019 22:38 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:25 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 21:52 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 21:23 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 20:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 20:38 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 03:56 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn’t say the fun is motivated by hate of a specific group of people. Not at all. The “fun” is found in watching folks live up to the expectations you have of them. Like the people who claim they defend free speech at all costs, but instantly disappear when it comes to defending an NFL player’s right to protest during a mandated playing of the national anthem. It is stratifying to be right, even if being right means folks are just as terrible as you feared they were.
Personally, I don’t hate conservatives or care what they do. My issue with conservatives is that they are constantly trying to screw me over through their policies and political goals. Which would be fine on its own. Politics is a game of winners and losers. But part of their tactic is to adopt this faux grievance and oppression by the “The Left”, while also attacking any grievance that people have with conservative policies. And that fucking sucks.
So sometimes it is enjoyable to watch them twist in the wind trying to square being all about “Law and Order” while attacking the FBI. Or wanting freedom of association while also arguing that unions have to represent non-union employees. It’s a small comfort. Well I'd wager most conservatives don't hate liberals or care what they do. Their issue is that liberals are constantly trying to screw them over with their policies. And part of their tactic is to paint everyone on the right as racist, bigoted etc. The GOP is more corrupt than the Democratic party, but I really don't think their voters are anymore evil. Oh I love this. Please name the policies liberals favor that screw over conservatives. I'm not one but it's really not hard to see things from other perspectives: - Higher taxes -> a lot of people don't like it, not just the rich - Increasing regulations -> hurts coorporations - Being more open to immigation -> low skilled workers are displaced - Increasing minimum wages -> hurts small business owners - Taxing carbon emissions -> loss of jobs in the mining industry - A the fiscally Conservative, funny how the people they vote for keep increasing the deficit by handing out tax cut to corperations and somehow it still hasn't trickled down. The government needs money to pay for stuff, hence taxes. If you have to worry about your money on a regular basis your unlikely to be effected by a tax increase. - yes regulations hurt corporations ability to exploit employers and customers. Are you saying the 2007 bank crisis was a good thing according to conservatives? Because shit like that is why we have regulations. -https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/541321716/fact-check-have-low-skilled-immigrants-taken-american-jobs?t=1549716293446 Seems like the jury is very much still out on that one. - Not being payed a liveable wage also hurts people, a lot more. Plus there is the amount of subsidising of companies who pay less then a liveable wage through government assistance keeping their workforce alive (that is payed for through taxes). Thought conservatives were against that aswell? - less jobs in the mining industry or less planet to live on. Gee tough choice. The conservative doesn't get to destroy the planet for 7.5 billion other people. I know, lets sell some more 'clean coal. - Trickle down economics doesn't work and the recent tax cut largely favors coorporations and the wealthy. But this does not negate that middle class earners also received tax cuts. - Generally yes, and personally I'm in favor of tight regulations. Greedy corporate executives, however trashy they are, have the right to vote for their self interest. - Sure, it is up to debate, which means there are people reaching opposite conclusions and acting based on that. - As far as I know conservatives are generally in favor of cutting social security. There's an argument that social security enables corporations paying these low wages. - People don't want to lose their jobs. You asked me to name policies that screw conservatives over, it looks like we can agree that executives, small business owners, coal workers, and other groups that tend to identify as 'conservative' are disfavored by liberal policies. I consider myself a centrist and I do think that liberal policies tend to be altruistic while conservative policies tend to be selfish. But people generally vote for their self interest and they have a right to do so. Your aware the middle and lower class tax cuts are set to expire and turn into a tax increase to pay for the corporate tax cuts that will not expire to make the whole thing 'revenue neutral' after 10 years right? giving you 10 dollars today and in return taking 5 dollars from you every month starting next year is not me giving you a gift of 10 dollars. Those mine workers afraid to lose their job were offered training to get another job as something else. And they a chose to become miners 'like their dads before them'. The preservation of the world for more then 7 billion people is not beholding to the moronic.If 'the conservative' is being consistently screwed over by policies designed to stop exploitation (be it of people or the planet) then maybe 'the conservative' should think about stopping exploiting people. I'm glad liberals didn't stop to think about the poor conservatives in their fight to end slavery. Or we would still be reading about how the poor cotton farmer can't survive without a plantation full of black people working for him for free. And I see no reason why they should stop this time. This is a pretty callous viewpoint of the plight of the coal worker. Having this viewpoint demonstrates that you have no idea what it’s like to be in this situation. These coal mining towns are not bustling centers of trade and education with a large, diversified populace; they are small villages with a few hundred people tops whose insular existence and contribution to the nation have been solely dependent on coal mining for the past 175-200 years. There is no reason for these villages to exist without coal; even if the populace were more willing to be retrained, they would learn that their old village is literally worthless for the skills they have now and have to relocate. Forcing a village of people to abandon their way of life and relocate doesn’t stop being monstrous and painful just because the reasons are more ethical than they were in the past, have some empathy. Yeah its callous, that's life. I'm not saying these people should be abandoned and left for themselves, the government should be there to help them transition into something. It should have been there over a decade ago to start a slower and less painful process. But we can't keep all the coal mines open indefinitely just to avoid hurting the feelings of wanne be coal miners. Sure call it callous, I ask. What would you do instead, considering the mine is likely to close soon regardless because of dwindling demand?
I don’t disagree that it needs to happen, and I agree that the transition process should have happened years ago. My issue is solely with calling them morons for acting in accordance with the beliefs on which they were raised.
FWIW, I think Trump offering ultimately false hope at maintaining their dying way of life for votes is cruel and manipulative. Democrats have an opportunity to win them over by advocating more federal attention and support (more than just retraining; financial/logistical support with relocating villages to more prosperous areas and keeping them together, for example), which ironically most Republicans would likely balk at.
EDIT - I agree with both posts above.
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On February 09 2019 23:38 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 23:36 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 22:38 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:25 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 21:52 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 21:23 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 20:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 20:38 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 03:56 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn’t say the fun is motivated by hate of a specific group of people. Not at all. The “fun” is found in watching folks live up to the expectations you have of them. Like the people who claim they defend free speech at all costs, but instantly disappear when it comes to defending an NFL player’s right to protest during a mandated playing of the national anthem. It is stratifying to be right, even if being right means folks are just as terrible as you feared they were.
Personally, I don’t hate conservatives or care what they do. My issue with conservatives is that they are constantly trying to screw me over through their policies and political goals. Which would be fine on its own. Politics is a game of winners and losers. But part of their tactic is to adopt this faux grievance and oppression by the “The Left”, while also attacking any grievance that people have with conservative policies. And that fucking sucks.
So sometimes it is enjoyable to watch them twist in the wind trying to square being all about “Law and Order” while attacking the FBI. Or wanting freedom of association while also arguing that unions have to represent non-union employees. It’s a small comfort. Well I'd wager most conservatives don't hate liberals or care what they do. Their issue is that liberals are constantly trying to screw them over with their policies. And part of their tactic is to paint everyone on the right as racist, bigoted etc. The GOP is more corrupt than the Democratic party, but I really don't think their voters are anymore evil. Oh I love this. Please name the policies liberals favor that screw over conservatives. I'm not one but it's really not hard to see things from other perspectives: - Higher taxes -> a lot of people don't like it, not just the rich - Increasing regulations -> hurts coorporations - Being more open to immigation -> low skilled workers are displaced - Increasing minimum wages -> hurts small business owners - Taxing carbon emissions -> loss of jobs in the mining industry - A the fiscally Conservative, funny how the people they vote for keep increasing the deficit by handing out tax cut to corperations and somehow it still hasn't trickled down. The government needs money to pay for stuff, hence taxes. If you have to worry about your money on a regular basis your unlikely to be effected by a tax increase. - yes regulations hurt corporations ability to exploit employers and customers. Are you saying the 2007 bank crisis was a good thing according to conservatives? Because shit like that is why we have regulations. -https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/541321716/fact-check-have-low-skilled-immigrants-taken-american-jobs?t=1549716293446 Seems like the jury is very much still out on that one. - Not being payed a liveable wage also hurts people, a lot more. Plus there is the amount of subsidising of companies who pay less then a liveable wage through government assistance keeping their workforce alive (that is payed for through taxes). Thought conservatives were against that aswell? - less jobs in the mining industry or less planet to live on. Gee tough choice. The conservative doesn't get to destroy the planet for 7.5 billion other people. I know, lets sell some more 'clean coal. - Trickle down economics doesn't work and the recent tax cut largely favors coorporations and the wealthy. But this does not negate that middle class earners also received tax cuts. - Generally yes, and personally I'm in favor of tight regulations. Greedy corporate executives, however trashy they are, have the right to vote for their self interest. - Sure, it is up to debate, which means there are people reaching opposite conclusions and acting based on that. - As far as I know conservatives are generally in favor of cutting social security. There's an argument that social security enables corporations paying these low wages. - People don't want to lose their jobs. You asked me to name policies that screw conservatives over, it looks like we can agree that executives, small business owners, coal workers, and other groups that tend to identify as 'conservative' are disfavored by liberal policies. I consider myself a centrist and I do think that liberal policies tend to be altruistic while conservative policies tend to be selfish. But people generally vote for their self interest and they have a right to do so. Your aware the middle and lower class tax cuts are set to expire and turn into a tax increase to pay for the corporate tax cuts that will not expire to make the whole thing 'revenue neutral' after 10 years right? giving you 10 dollars today and in return taking 5 dollars from you every month starting next year is not me giving you a gift of 10 dollars. Those mine workers afraid to lose their job were offered training to get another job as something else. And they a chose to become miners 'like their dads before them'. The preservation of the world for more then 7 billion people is not beholding to the moronic. If 'the conservative' is being consistently screwed over by policies designed to stop exploitation (be it of people or the planet) then maybe 'the conservative' should think about stopping exploiting people. I'm glad liberals didn't stop to think about the poor conservatives in their fight to end slavery. Or we would still be reading about how the poor cotton farmer can't survive without a plantation full of black people working for him for free. And I see no reason why they should stop this time. Look I'm not arguing for conservative policies. All I'm saying is that most conservatives are just normal people voting for their self interest. I'd argue that they are normal people who got conned into voting against their own self interest.
maybe they scorn your narrow conception of self-interest and are voting for the sake of the country
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On February 10 2019 01:23 Ryzel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2019 01:00 Gorsameth wrote:On February 10 2019 00:43 Ryzel wrote:On February 09 2019 22:38 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:25 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 21:52 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 21:23 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 20:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 20:38 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 03:56 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn’t say the fun is motivated by hate of a specific group of people. Not at all. The “fun” is found in watching folks live up to the expectations you have of them. Like the people who claim they defend free speech at all costs, but instantly disappear when it comes to defending an NFL player’s right to protest during a mandated playing of the national anthem. It is stratifying to be right, even if being right means folks are just as terrible as you feared they were.
Personally, I don’t hate conservatives or care what they do. My issue with conservatives is that they are constantly trying to screw me over through their policies and political goals. Which would be fine on its own. Politics is a game of winners and losers. But part of their tactic is to adopt this faux grievance and oppression by the “The Left”, while also attacking any grievance that people have with conservative policies. And that fucking sucks.
So sometimes it is enjoyable to watch them twist in the wind trying to square being all about “Law and Order” while attacking the FBI. Or wanting freedom of association while also arguing that unions have to represent non-union employees. It’s a small comfort. Well I'd wager most conservatives don't hate liberals or care what they do. Their issue is that liberals are constantly trying to screw them over with their policies. And part of their tactic is to paint everyone on the right as racist, bigoted etc. The GOP is more corrupt than the Democratic party, but I really don't think their voters are anymore evil. Oh I love this. Please name the policies liberals favor that screw over conservatives. I'm not one but it's really not hard to see things from other perspectives: - Higher taxes -> a lot of people don't like it, not just the rich - Increasing regulations -> hurts coorporations - Being more open to immigation -> low skilled workers are displaced - Increasing minimum wages -> hurts small business owners - Taxing carbon emissions -> loss of jobs in the mining industry - A the fiscally Conservative, funny how the people they vote for keep increasing the deficit by handing out tax cut to corperations and somehow it still hasn't trickled down. The government needs money to pay for stuff, hence taxes. If you have to worry about your money on a regular basis your unlikely to be effected by a tax increase. - yes regulations hurt corporations ability to exploit employers and customers. Are you saying the 2007 bank crisis was a good thing according to conservatives? Because shit like that is why we have regulations. -https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/541321716/fact-check-have-low-skilled-immigrants-taken-american-jobs?t=1549716293446 Seems like the jury is very much still out on that one. - Not being payed a liveable wage also hurts people, a lot more. Plus there is the amount of subsidising of companies who pay less then a liveable wage through government assistance keeping their workforce alive (that is payed for through taxes). Thought conservatives were against that aswell? - less jobs in the mining industry or less planet to live on. Gee tough choice. The conservative doesn't get to destroy the planet for 7.5 billion other people. I know, lets sell some more 'clean coal. - Trickle down economics doesn't work and the recent tax cut largely favors coorporations and the wealthy. But this does not negate that middle class earners also received tax cuts. - Generally yes, and personally I'm in favor of tight regulations. Greedy corporate executives, however trashy they are, have the right to vote for their self interest. - Sure, it is up to debate, which means there are people reaching opposite conclusions and acting based on that. - As far as I know conservatives are generally in favor of cutting social security. There's an argument that social security enables corporations paying these low wages. - People don't want to lose their jobs. You asked me to name policies that screw conservatives over, it looks like we can agree that executives, small business owners, coal workers, and other groups that tend to identify as 'conservative' are disfavored by liberal policies. I consider myself a centrist and I do think that liberal policies tend to be altruistic while conservative policies tend to be selfish. But people generally vote for their self interest and they have a right to do so. Your aware the middle and lower class tax cuts are set to expire and turn into a tax increase to pay for the corporate tax cuts that will not expire to make the whole thing 'revenue neutral' after 10 years right? giving you 10 dollars today and in return taking 5 dollars from you every month starting next year is not me giving you a gift of 10 dollars. Those mine workers afraid to lose their job were offered training to get another job as something else. And they a chose to become miners 'like their dads before them'. The preservation of the world for more then 7 billion people is not beholding to the moronic.If 'the conservative' is being consistently screwed over by policies designed to stop exploitation (be it of people or the planet) then maybe 'the conservative' should think about stopping exploiting people. I'm glad liberals didn't stop to think about the poor conservatives in their fight to end slavery. Or we would still be reading about how the poor cotton farmer can't survive without a plantation full of black people working for him for free. And I see no reason why they should stop this time. This is a pretty callous viewpoint of the plight of the coal worker. Having this viewpoint demonstrates that you have no idea what it’s like to be in this situation. These coal mining towns are not bustling centers of trade and education with a large, diversified populace; they are small villages with a few hundred people tops whose insular existence and contribution to the nation have been solely dependent on coal mining for the past 175-200 years. There is no reason for these villages to exist without coal; even if the populace were more willing to be retrained, they would learn that their old village is literally worthless for the skills they have now and have to relocate. Forcing a village of people to abandon their way of life and relocate doesn’t stop being monstrous and painful just because the reasons are more ethical than they were in the past, have some empathy. Yeah its callous, that's life. I'm not saying these people should be abandoned and left for themselves, the government should be there to help them transition into something. It should have been there over a decade ago to start a slower and less painful process. But we can't keep all the coal mines open indefinitely just to avoid hurting the feelings of wanne be coal miners. Sure call it callous, I ask. What would you do instead, considering the mine is likely to close soon regardless because of dwindling demand? I don’t disagree that it needs to happen, and I agree that the transition process should have happened years ago. My issue is solely with calling them morons for acting in accordance with the beliefs on which they were raised. FWIW, I think Trump offering ultimately false hope at maintaining their dying way of life for votes is cruel and manipulative. Democrats have an opportunity to win them over by advocating more federal attention and support (more than just retraining; financial/logistical support with relocating villages to more prosperous areas and keeping them together, for example), which ironically most Republicans would likely balk at. EDIT - I agree with both posts above. Yeah, i'm going to take a wild wild guess and say that those villagers won't be very receptive to idea's about being relocated.
I seem to remember Clinton already offering a lot more then just re-training but real financial support.
Maybe the problem was Clinton and the message, but last time Rural America got to chose between being helped into the 21st century or being promised to bring back the 1800's. They chose the man that promised to turn back the hand of time.
There are only so many times I can see someone vote against their own interests before I shake my head and call him an idiot.
Again, not to say they should be abandoned, I still want the Democratic platform to include support to help those people, even if they convinced themselves they don't want it. But i'm betting you they vote for the next snake-oil salesmen promising to keep their mine open, yet again.
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On February 10 2019 01:35 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 23:38 Simberto wrote:On February 09 2019 23:36 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 22:38 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:25 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 21:52 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 21:23 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 20:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 20:38 explosivekangaroo wrote:On February 09 2019 03:56 Plansix wrote:
I wouldn’t say the fun is motivated by hate of a specific group of people. Not at all. The “fun” is found in watching folks live up to the expectations you have of them. Like the people who claim they defend free speech at all costs, but instantly disappear when it comes to defending an NFL player’s right to protest during a mandated playing of the national anthem. It is stratifying to be right, even if being right means folks are just as terrible as you feared they were.
Personally, I don’t hate conservatives or care what they do. My issue with conservatives is that they are constantly trying to screw me over through their policies and political goals. Which would be fine on its own. Politics is a game of winners and losers. But part of their tactic is to adopt this faux grievance and oppression by the “The Left”, while also attacking any grievance that people have with conservative policies. And that fucking sucks.
So sometimes it is enjoyable to watch them twist in the wind trying to square being all about “Law and Order” while attacking the FBI. Or wanting freedom of association while also arguing that unions have to represent non-union employees. It’s a small comfort. Well I'd wager most conservatives don't hate liberals or care what they do. Their issue is that liberals are constantly trying to screw them over with their policies. And part of their tactic is to paint everyone on the right as racist, bigoted etc. The GOP is more corrupt than the Democratic party, but I really don't think their voters are anymore evil. Oh I love this. Please name the policies liberals favor that screw over conservatives. I'm not one but it's really not hard to see things from other perspectives: - Higher taxes -> a lot of people don't like it, not just the rich - Increasing regulations -> hurts coorporations - Being more open to immigation -> low skilled workers are displaced - Increasing minimum wages -> hurts small business owners - Taxing carbon emissions -> loss of jobs in the mining industry - A the fiscally Conservative, funny how the people they vote for keep increasing the deficit by handing out tax cut to corperations and somehow it still hasn't trickled down. The government needs money to pay for stuff, hence taxes. If you have to worry about your money on a regular basis your unlikely to be effected by a tax increase. - yes regulations hurt corporations ability to exploit employers and customers. Are you saying the 2007 bank crisis was a good thing according to conservatives? Because shit like that is why we have regulations. -https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/541321716/fact-check-have-low-skilled-immigrants-taken-american-jobs?t=1549716293446 Seems like the jury is very much still out on that one. - Not being payed a liveable wage also hurts people, a lot more. Plus there is the amount of subsidising of companies who pay less then a liveable wage through government assistance keeping their workforce alive (that is payed for through taxes). Thought conservatives were against that aswell? - less jobs in the mining industry or less planet to live on. Gee tough choice. The conservative doesn't get to destroy the planet for 7.5 billion other people. I know, lets sell some more 'clean coal. - Trickle down economics doesn't work and the recent tax cut largely favors coorporations and the wealthy. But this does not negate that middle class earners also received tax cuts. - Generally yes, and personally I'm in favor of tight regulations. Greedy corporate executives, however trashy they are, have the right to vote for their self interest. - Sure, it is up to debate, which means there are people reaching opposite conclusions and acting based on that. - As far as I know conservatives are generally in favor of cutting social security. There's an argument that social security enables corporations paying these low wages. - People don't want to lose their jobs. You asked me to name policies that screw conservatives over, it looks like we can agree that executives, small business owners, coal workers, and other groups that tend to identify as 'conservative' are disfavored by liberal policies. I consider myself a centrist and I do think that liberal policies tend to be altruistic while conservative policies tend to be selfish. But people generally vote for their self interest and they have a right to do so. Your aware the middle and lower class tax cuts are set to expire and turn into a tax increase to pay for the corporate tax cuts that will not expire to make the whole thing 'revenue neutral' after 10 years right? giving you 10 dollars today and in return taking 5 dollars from you every month starting next year is not me giving you a gift of 10 dollars. Those mine workers afraid to lose their job were offered training to get another job as something else. And they a chose to become miners 'like their dads before them'. The preservation of the world for more then 7 billion people is not beholding to the moronic. If 'the conservative' is being consistently screwed over by policies designed to stop exploitation (be it of people or the planet) then maybe 'the conservative' should think about stopping exploiting people. I'm glad liberals didn't stop to think about the poor conservatives in their fight to end slavery. Or we would still be reading about how the poor cotton farmer can't survive without a plantation full of black people working for him for free. And I see no reason why they should stop this time. Look I'm not arguing for conservative policies. All I'm saying is that most conservatives are just normal people voting for their self interest. I'd argue that they are normal people who got conned into voting against their own self interest. maybe they scorn your narrow conception of self-interest and are voting for the sake of the country The country would probably be helped by preserving the environment so that its citizens can still live in it.
The country would probably be helped by regulations that seek to stop or limit economic depressions destroying the market every few decades.
The country would probably be helped by people being able to live off of what they earn from a full job.
The country would probably be helped by a healthcare system aimed to keep its citizens healthy and reduce spiralling healthcare costs.
ect ect ect.
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for some reason they don't find any of those arguments persuasive
or rather, they might find some persuasive and disagree about how to achieve them
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On February 10 2019 02:05 IgnE wrote:
for some reason they don't find any of those arguments persuasive
or rather, they might find some persuasive and disagree about how to achieve them
Do you think they're fully aware and active political participants, given the huge number of studies that suggest the bulk of voters (of both persuasions) legitimately have no idea what is going on?
A lot of Americans blindly believe what CNN and Fox tells them, and you know full well that both are full of shit (to differing degrees, perhaps, but hardly a saving grace).
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On February 09 2019 05:39 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 05:28 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
This is the part where we also try to define conservatives and conservatism. The main definition is just the opposite of liberal on an axis that goes like this: Left: socialism Right: capitalism Up: authoritarian Down: anarchist Forward: liberal Backward: conservative Mostly a politically correct term for reactionary.
Thanks for your thoughts on political theory. Not really a useful definition to define conservative as political thought that happens to not be socialist, or capitalist, or authoritarian, or anarchist, or liberal. Some of which could be said not to be different positions on the same axis. And leaves a lot of room elsewhere. Probably more useful to define it as reactionary, but then you'll have to define reactionary, which changes from time to time, from place to place, or simply doesn't exist at all.
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So this green new deal thing actually looks pretty radical. I am surprised all the presidential candidates are signing on to it. That actually makes it look like the party is radicalizing. I hope a candidate comes out against it as a differentiator.
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EPT
