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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On August 03 2017 19:40 Ghostcom wrote: You literally wrote: People's kids are literally the next generation. As i said, my bad - in the next posting i'm talking "generations". Partially anyway. But correct, should've said "a couple of generations". Things like capitalism, liberalism, rule of law are not invented/changed by parents for their kids. They generally don't create inheritable institutions either. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
The investigation is advancing and some NGOs are not in a good position. Two weeks ago anyone calling them out was labelled a xenophobe - now people are opening their eyes. Social networks are on fire right now. Trapani's prosecutor showed pictures to the press where the Iuventa met with human traffickers and how they went to load people who weren't in danger situation. Latest post on Jugend Rettet Facebook page (Facebook autotranslate from German): + Show Spoiler + Dear supporters, Thank you for your interest and your questions. Due to the current situation, all of our capacities are focussing on todays events. We also make every effort to revise on the issue and keep you up to date. However, we do not want to tell you any speculation. For this cause we are gathering information on all levels at the moment. We hope to be in touch with the Italian authorities in the near future. For us, the rescue of human life is and will be top priority, so we are very sorry for the fact that we are not able to operate in the Search and Rescue Zone at the moment. We can only assess all the accusations that are currently being made after we collected all the information and can estimate the situation. Thank you for your understanding. We give our best. One of the pictures of the investigation: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9miulVJ.jpg) From the left: Rubber rescue dinghy of the Iuventa ship - immigrants - Traffickers | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5298 Posts
about the claim on <working institutions>, the morality(ethics) of it is so pragmatic, that if one were to go back and look at the evolution of those institutions, at the happenings required for it to unfold, he'll see a deterministic trail of coincidences, leading up to that one and only outcome, pertaining to one specific population(Ex/claim: the haitian population would have never came up with "democracy/democratic institutions"). morality proper should(and does) concern itself with its own survival/continuity and then with fitting in whatever/whomever it can; anyone taking it for granted should be ignored. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On August 03 2017 19:51 xM(Z wrote: you dudes should read up on studies made on populations(from insects to mammals) migration because what you'll find there, as an implied consensus, is that in 99% of cases(actually i haven't read one that says otherwise, but i'm giving it the benefit of the doubt there), the (genetic)fitness of/in the native population decreases; invariably. about the claim on <working institutions>, the morality(ethics) of it is so pragmatic, that if one were to go back and look at the evolution of those institutions, at the happenings required for it to unfold, he'll see a deterministic trail of coincidences, leading up to that one and only outcome, pertaining to one specific population(Ex/claim: the haitian population would have never came up with "democracy/democratic institutions"). morality proper should(and does) concern itself with its own survival/continuity and then with fitting in whatever/whomever it can; anyone taking it for granted should be ignored. Citation for these studies about population fitness? On August 03 2017 19:47 SoSexy wrote: A disclaimer first: I'll try to keep you guys updated on the NGOs vs Italy issue. Bare in mind that most of the time, the sources will be Italian ones (I can provide them if asked), therefore you will have to trust my translation. I honestly do not have time to look for every source in English or translate entire articles. The investigation is advancing and some NGOs are not in a good position. Two weeks ago anyone calling them out was labelled a xenophobe - now people are opening their eyes. Social networks are on fire right now. Trapani's prosecutor showed pictures to the press where the Iuventa met with human traffickers and how they went to load people who weren't in danger situation. Latest post on Jugend Rettet Facebook page (Facebook autotranslate from German): + Show Spoiler + Dear supporters, Thank you for your interest and your questions. Due to the current situation, all of our capacities are focussing on todays events. We also make every effort to revise on the issue and keep you up to date. However, we do not want to tell you any speculation. For this cause we are gathering information on all levels at the moment. We hope to be in touch with the Italian authorities in the near future. For us, the rescue of human life is and will be top priority, so we are very sorry for the fact that we are not able to operate in the Search and Rescue Zone at the moment. We can only assess all the accusations that are currently being made after we collected all the information and can estimate the situation. Thank you for your understanding. We give our best. One of the pictures of the investigation: + Show Spoiler + From the left: Rubber rescue dinghy of the Iuventa ship - immigrants - Traffickers This picture was taken by Italian coastguards in international waters? I hope they will be charged with people smuggling and not some lenient slap of the wrist just because they are NGOs. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/cronaca/2017/08/03/i-contatti-della-nave-dellong-iuventa-con-i-trafficanti-di-migranti_75d11fa0-3e3b-49cc-a29b-189b1a81f707.html | ||
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warding
Portugal2394 Posts
On August 03 2017 19:25 bardtown wrote: Go to the UK thread, we've already had this discussion and I don't want to have it again. @warding, that is a terrible excuse for Iberian colonies being less successful than British colonies. You had too much gold and silver to be as successful as the US? Please. It is clear that British culture/institutions played a huge role in the success of its colonies. What's clear to you is pretty much the opposite of what the field of development economics has come to find. What is it about British culture that enhances economic development - is it the high teenage pregnancy rates, getting drunk by 9pm and farting in pubs? Don't tell me it's cricket. The British were not looking to export their institutions to the colonies, they were looking to extract. Wherever there were resources to plunder - from the slave economy of the American south and Caribbean, to the African colonies to India and Pakistan to China - the British plundered and set up extractive institutions no better than what the Iberians did. The places where pluralist, liberal, Democratic institutions were able to spring up were those where there was simply nothing to plunder. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
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warding
Portugal2394 Posts
On August 04 2017 00:28 bardtown wrote: Extracting resources from a country does not preclude introducing effective institutions or infrastructure. Ironically even in South America there are probably more British built railways than Iberian ones. It actually very much does. Because you didn't send out your folk to go in there and extract diamonds and plant cotton in return for a fair wage, you created economies and societies dependent on slave labor or indentured servants. Those kinds of societies don't tend to flourish into working democracies, they go on and become Jamaicas, Belizes, the confederate states, the apartheid South Africa and so on. You'll never see me defend Portuguese colonialism. I'm sure the argentinians appreciate your railways. Ironically, nowadays you have the worst rail system in Europe, so there. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
 by the time everyone else implements their copies the technology has advanced significantly. | ||
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warding
Portugal2394 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Obviously I know, why; first adopters yadda yadda yadda, but I've found trains on the continent to be universally better so far. Even Slovakia. The only problems I've ever had was trying to work out which train goes where for which platform, but that would be a language issue, not a problem with the railways. Oh and that time my train was delayed in Austria in the middle of the refugee crisis, but the conductor was very apologetic and for some reason handed me a ticket for a refund that I couldn't redeem anyways. In any case these "successful institutions" argument makes no sense. The British Empire didn't come about because we wanted to spread | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
1. It's genetics, 2. It's culture, 3. It's coincidence. Choose your poison, but I think it's pretty obvious that it's culture. It is a shame that the culture along with our train system is deteriorating ;(. Btw there are various kinds of success and I think you could pick almost any country in Europe and it would be a better place to live than the UK right now. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On August 04 2017 06:28 bardtown wrote: So you're voting coincidence. I'm sticking with culture, though, in the same way I think Scandinavian nations are successful because of their culture, even extending to Estonia outperforming its neighbours because it is more Scandinavian culture-wise than they are. Please, tell me all about the Scandinavian influence Estonia has. I am very interested now. Unless you are parroting stuff you don't really understand, that is. To reduce the shitpostiness - Estonia does have Scandinavian influences, but it arguably also had a better starting position than the rest of the Baltic countries. I'd argue for more of a German influence, since most of the Estonian legal system is built on the German model, for example. There's no bigger proponent for German austerity than Estonia either. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On August 04 2017 06:32 mustaju wrote: Please, tell me all about the Scandinavian influence Estonia has. I am very interested now. Unless you are parroting stuff you don't really understand, that is. To reduce the shitpostiness - Estonia does have Scandinavian influences, but it arguably also had a better starting position than the rest of the Baltic countries. I'd argue for more of a German influence, since most of the Estonian legal system is built on the German model, for example. There's no bigger proponent for German austerity than Estonia either. Should say Nordic influence I guess, as I was referring to the bromance with Finland. Looks like Sweden is the next biggest trading partner, too. Also I remember seeing variations on this flag: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://estonianworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/594px-Estonian_alternative_flag_proposal2.svg_.png) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_identity_in_Estonia But yes mostly parroting stuff I don't understand, so feel free to tell me why I'm wrong. On August 04 2017 06:36 Plansix wrote: Culture is a factor in the development of any nation or people. But providing it is the defining factor or one culture is superior in promoting development over the other is…challenge to say the least. Human development and cultural interaction is not a system have the ability to measure with any accuracy, let alone completely understand. This might be of interest to you. https://geert-hofstede.com/countries.html What sets the Anglosphere apart is a heavy focus on individualism. | ||
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