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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
Re Open Arms:
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It does seem that this particular signal was faked. Nevertheless, the overall strategy of the NGOs is to wait just outside Libyan waters for the migrants who then sink/abandon their boats in order to be collected. It's pretty clear that this incentivises smugglers not only to continue smuggling, but also to instruct the migrants to sink their own boats. I really feel for Italy. The failure of the EU to accurately represent this situation and of the Italian state to take its own unilateral precautions will have serious consequences for generations to come.
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On August 02 2017 17:17 SoSexy wrote:
Noone in Europe gives a fuck about this situation.
This is not true. We do care. And i think most of eastern europeans also care. But we cant really do much. Not with Germany and co& puting plugs in ears and screaming EVERYTHING is ok.
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That video is bullshit. No proofs and the guy talking is an amateur. Check their twitter comments to see how people are responding.
Also check the comments here, especially the guy asking for a technical report on the 'hacking':
In addition, it would not be the first time NGOs push that deep: https://vid.me/9shyI
Ockham's razor has to be applied.
Thanks for the solidarity on the rest, though.
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On August 02 2017 18:34 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 17:17 SoSexy wrote:
Noone in Europe gives a fuck about this situation.
This is not true. We do care. And i think most of eastern europeans also care. But we cant really do much. Not with Germany and co& puting plugs in ears and screaming EVERYTHING is ok.
"Just close the mediterranean." I don't think anyone in the EU will stop Poland from setting up refugee camps in Lybia.
You don't feel obligated to actually do something? Guess what, "Germany and co" neither. It's not them blocking a reform of the Dublin System, so they also don't hold any obligations.
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'Germany and co' created this situation and showered money all over the people smugglers.
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Yes, Merkel herself ignored Dublin regulations and did so openly and in public. On top of that she asked people to do the same.
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The tragedy is that a NGO is openly challenging the Italian government. The idea that you can say 'fuck off, I won't accept your law' YET continue to ferry people to its harbours and sail in its waters is an open challenge to sovereignty. Italy should just bring the Navy out and warn them with fake shots if they approach: you are not welcome here.
Criminality is deeply involved. During the trial of Mafia Capitale (a huge investigation concerning a criminal organization in Rome, with political connections and Massimo Carminati, an old exponent of the Banda della Magliana as leader), there were tapes of Carminati explicitly saying 'With immigrants, we make more money than with drug trafficking')
OT Side note on (bad) justice in Italy
+ Show Spoiler +To make you understand why we can't be a serious country, a former terrorist, friend of Carminati, was arrested in 1982 and sentenced to 9 life sentences, 84 years and 8 months in prison for the killing of 96 people.
In 2013, she was freed. 9 life sentences reduced to 16 years (she got parole and 'home jail', don't know how to translate that). Imagine if you are condemned to 5 years - you won't even see the jail.
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On August 02 2017 19:34 Silvanel wrote:
Yes, Merkel herself ignored Dublin regulations and did so openly and in public. On top of that she asked people to do the same.
How so? And if so, why not go to court about it?
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Germany should have done what exactly? Deport all the refugees back to Syria?
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The article is plainly wrong. Every EU country can take over the responsibility for a refugee if they actually want to. Dublin III does explicitely grant such a freedom to EU countries. As long as I don't hear hungary or greece or whatever entrance country cry about Germany taking all the good refugees away from them, there is no legal challenge to the fully legal self-proclaimed German responsibility. Even moreso, the factual collaboration (e.g. all the buses the hungarian government chartered to bring refugees to the Austrian border) and cries for solidarity pretty much rule out that the border crossings were illegal by EU-law.
Tldr: Germany didn't drop the law, the law is way more nuanced than "herpderp, first country".
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On August 02 2017 21:01 warding wrote:
Germany should have done what exactly? Deport all the refugees back to Syria?
Most aren't refugees nor from Syria.
The problem "Germany and co" caused is that they sent a message and created a huge influx.
Just watch what happened in the US since Trump, just by saying he'll take a hard stance on illegal immigration, he cut illegal border crossings by more than half. Basically it discouraged people from coming, while in Europe we encourage them and then let them down.
It simply not logistically possible, some days up to 15000 or even 20000 persons from Africa arrive in Italy.
Have you ever seen a 20000 person town ? Do you realize how much infrastructure is needed to accommodate so many people. And now it's every day ?
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On August 02 2017 21:40 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 21:01 warding wrote:
Germany should have done what exactly? Deport all the refugees back to Syria? Most aren't refugees nor from Syria. The problem "Germany and co" caused is that they sent a message and created a huge influx. Just watch what happened in the US since Trump, just by saying he'll take a hard stance on illegal immigration, he cut illegal border crossings by more than half. Basically it discouraged people from coming, while in Europe we encourage them and then let them down. It simply not logistically possible, some days up to 15000 or even 20000 persons from Africa arrive in Italy. Have you ever seen a 20000 person town ? Do you realize how much infrastructure is needed to accommodate so many people. And now it's every day ?
That has more to do with mass deportations nation wide than Teumps statement. And the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants in the US come here legally and over stay their visa because of our busted visa system. I am sure refugees would stop coming if your country put a well known racist in charge and started shipping them back on mass or threatening to separate them from their children while in detention. Really I wouldn’t use the US as a model for anything but what not to do with immigrants.
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On August 02 2017 21:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 21:40 MrCon wrote:On August 02 2017 21:01 warding wrote:
Germany should have done what exactly? Deport all the refugees back to Syria? Most aren't refugees nor from Syria. The problem "Germany and co" caused is that they sent a message and created a huge influx. Just watch what happened in the US since Trump, just by saying he'll take a hard stance on illegal immigration, he cut illegal border crossings by more than half. Basically it discouraged people from coming, while in Europe we encourage them and then let them down. It simply not logistically possible, some days up to 15000 or even 20000 persons from Africa arrive in Italy. Have you ever seen a 20000 person town ? Do you realize how much infrastructure is needed to accommodate so many people. And now it's every day ? That has more to do with mass deportations nation wide than Teumps statement. And the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants in the US come here legally and over stay their visa because of our busted visa system. I am sure refugees would stop coming if your country put a well known racist in charge and started shipping them back on mass or threatening to separate them from their children while in detention. Really I wouldn’t use the US as a model for anything but what not to do with immigrants.
It's a bit offtopic, but isn't the "illegal migration" issue one that the US has created systematically as to not pay welfare to migrants? Isn't it the old right-wing liberal dogma, that if you have a welfare state you need to make immigration illegal and look away so that only those come who are selfsustaining. Something that far-right populists are now derping about, pretending that those illegals are illegal in the sense, that you never wanted them at all, while America just didn't want welfare migration.
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On August 02 2017 22:00 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 21:45 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2017 21:40 MrCon wrote:On August 02 2017 21:01 warding wrote:
Germany should have done what exactly? Deport all the refugees back to Syria? Most aren't refugees nor from Syria. The problem "Germany and co" caused is that they sent a message and created a huge influx. Just watch what happened in the US since Trump, just by saying he'll take a hard stance on illegal immigration, he cut illegal border crossings by more than half. Basically it discouraged people from coming, while in Europe we encourage them and then let them down. It simply not logistically possible, some days up to 15000 or even 20000 persons from Africa arrive in Italy. Have you ever seen a 20000 person town ? Do you realize how much infrastructure is needed to accommodate so many people. And now it's every day ? That has more to do with mass deportations nation wide than Teumps statement. And the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants in the US come here legally and over stay their visa because of our busted visa system. I am sure refugees would stop coming if your country put a well known racist in charge and started shipping them back on mass or threatening to separate them from their children while in detention. Really I wouldn’t use the US as a model for anything but what not to do with immigrants. It's a bit offtopic, but isn't the "illegal migration" issue one that the US has created systematically as to not pay welfare to migrants? Isn't it the old right-wing liberal dogma, that if you have a welfare state you need to make immigration illegal and look away so that only those come who are selfsustaining. Something that far-right populists are now derping about, pretending that those illegals are illegal in the sense, that you never wanted them at all, while America just didn't want welfare migration.
We have an endless history of nativism that has only gotten worse since we ran out of spaces to expand to. We have stuff like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
The fear of overburdening the “welfare state” is a bit myopic and doesn’t really address the economic benefits of immigration. Especially when populations are in decline, shrinking the labor and tax bases. Also immigration from the Mexico area has been in decline long before now. It keeps coming up because it is a long standing political football to throw/kick around.
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On August 02 2017 21:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 21:40 MrCon wrote:On August 02 2017 21:01 warding wrote:
Germany should have done what exactly? Deport all the refugees back to Syria? Most aren't refugees nor from Syria. The problem "Germany and co" caused is that they sent a message and created a huge influx. Just watch what happened in the US since Trump, just by saying he'll take a hard stance on illegal immigration, he cut illegal border crossings by more than half. Basically it discouraged people from coming, while in Europe we encourage them and then let them down. It simply not logistically possible, some days up to 15000 or even 20000 persons from Africa arrive in Italy. Have you ever seen a 20000 person town ? Do you realize how much infrastructure is needed to accommodate so many people. And now it's every day ? That has more to do with mass deportations nation wide than Teumps statement. And the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants in the US come here legally and over stay their visa because of our busted visa system. I am sure refugees would stop coming if your country put a well known racist in charge and started shipping them back on mass or threatening to separate them from their children while in detention. Really I wouldn’t use the US as a model for anything but what not to do with immigrants.
Nope, I'm talking about illegal border crossings, nothing to do with deportations.
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On August 02 2017 23:10 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 21:45 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2017 21:40 MrCon wrote:On August 02 2017 21:01 warding wrote:
Germany should have done what exactly? Deport all the refugees back to Syria? Most aren't refugees nor from Syria. The problem "Germany and co" caused is that they sent a message and created a huge influx. Just watch what happened in the US since Trump, just by saying he'll take a hard stance on illegal immigration, he cut illegal border crossings by more than half. Basically it discouraged people from coming, while in Europe we encourage them and then let them down. It simply not logistically possible, some days up to 15000 or even 20000 persons from Africa arrive in Italy. Have you ever seen a 20000 person town ? Do you realize how much infrastructure is needed to accommodate so many people. And now it's every day ? That has more to do with mass deportations nation wide than Teumps statement. And the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants in the US come here legally and over stay their visa because of our busted visa system. I am sure refugees would stop coming if your country put a well known racist in charge and started shipping them back on mass or threatening to separate them from their children while in detention. Really I wouldn’t use the US as a model for anything but what not to do with immigrants. Nope, I'm talking about illegal border crossings, nothing to do with deportations.
The two are connected. The deportations and aggressive behavior of ICE in the US has resulted in fewer boarder crossings. The number was also going down long before Trump. Correlation is not causation.
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Illegal migrants in the US stalled from 2008 onwards. Trump might have had an effect but I think we don't have numbers for that yet. Either way, citing Trump as an example in the European forum is profane.
If Germany wants to take on migrants - and they have good reasons to - let them. Their unemployment is at 3.9%, GDP growth nearing 2%. Economically it makes a lot of sense. In terms of non-economic aspects I don't have much data to analyse but I'd suspect hummus quality has increased substantially.
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Economically it makes no sense, because they have a developed economy and no use for unskilled labour. If they ever did need unskilled labour it would have come from the millions of people in eastern Europe looking for a better life in Germany/UK/Scandinavia. They have probably spent more money on dentistry for refugees than they have earned in taxes from them. The only possible justification is humanitarian, but that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny either. Refugees live in essentially the same conditions in Turkish camps as they do in Germany for a fraction of the cost, meaning that if Germany had funded camps in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, etc, they could have helped far more people or helped the same number of people with far more provisions. Then you have to understand that they didn't just invite people into their own home, they invited them to trample through their neighbours gardens en route before deciding that, actually, they didn't want any more guests. And so Greece and Italy now have thousands of migrants who they had no role in inviting and have no funds to sustain, and the EU is trying to force countries like Poland to take refugees who have absolutely no desire of going to Poland.
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Germany has developed enough to replace all unskilled labor? When did this happen? Do you now have super awesome garbage robots, robot janitor, robot street cleaners and so on? How about low skill labor? Robot general contractors and construction workers? Why are not endless videos of this cool stuff?
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EPT
