EPTThen again, it's not like it's the first time that reckless loaning has nasty repercussions. Of course, the bankers aren't the ones dealing with the consequences of their acts, nor is the greek government.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 60
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Then again, it's not like it's the first time that reckless loaning has nasty repercussions. Of course, the bankers aren't the ones dealing with the consequences of their acts, nor is the greek government. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On February 22 2015 14:10 Wegandi wrote: The Baltics have much more freer economies, and a better tax structure. Why you ignore that, and decide to focus only on one aspect makes little sense other than perhaps for ideological purposes. Then there is the argument that the IMF and Euro-banks entice poorer countries to make poor economic decisions knowing they're likely to default because they can take the countries assets for relatively cheap due to the nature of fiat currency. The same is true of the Fed in the US. They're more like Corporate Welfare regimes and redistributive wealth schemes than institutions fostering 'good will'. It's not like people didn't see Greece from a million miles away, just like the situation that has been plaguing Africa for a long time now. What are you talking about? Africa is a corporate welfare regime? | ||
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A3th3r
United States319 Posts
On February 22 2015 12:46 JonnyBNoHo wrote: It's a unit labor costs thing. Wages are low relative to output, not low relative to other nations. ![[image loading]](http://www.maximise.dk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/euro_zone_unit_labour_costs.jpg) This feeds into Germany's large trade surplus. This viewpoint makes the most sense from an economic perspective [rest of post redacted due to threats] | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 22 2015 15:44 IgnE wrote: What are you talking about? Africa is a corporate welfare regime? What I cleaned from that portion is that he is of the belief (I have not really investigated this, but have heard it before) that the IMF/UN/ETC issue predatory loans to poor countries in Africa that they more or less expect them to default on. Also shouldn't that graph of Germany vs. Portugal/Italy/Ireland/Greece include a country that actually is anything like Germany? Say France/Netherlands? | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 22 2015 17:51 cLutZ wrote: What I cleaned from that portion is that he is of the belief (I have not really investigated this, but have heard it before) that the IMF/UN/ETC issue predatory loans to poor countries in Africa that they more or less expect them to default on. Also shouldn't that graph of Germany vs. Portugal/Italy/Ireland/Greece include a country that actually is anything like Germany? Say France/Netherlands? Jonny's graph and mine two page ago are actually the same thing more or less, so you see France there above Italy as it should. | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
On February 22 2015 17:54 WhiteDog wrote: Jonny's graph and mine two page ago are actually the same thing more or less, so you see France there above Italy as it should. France is not like Germany though. Its a southern country in disguise. They will be the next to fall after Italy. The Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Finland, Sweden and Denmark are comparable countries. Id exclude UK as well since its just one big financial service industry nowadays. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 23 2015 16:48 Yuljan wrote: France is not like Germany though. Its a southern country in disguise. They will be the next to fall after Italy. The Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Finland, Sweden and Denmark are comparable countries. Id exclude UK as well since its just one big financial service industry nowadays. Yeah France is not like Germany : they have increased wages with production, unlike Germany, and in this regard play their role in Europe. Germany play a nationalist economical game in a deeply flawed union. As for France falling economically, you're clueless. But it's right that it's not part of the "north". Ethically, culturally and from the point of view of the language it's closer to the south (thankfully). | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10764 Posts
Germany spits out awesome numbers but thats about it. These numbers don't do shit for their own populance and are actively hurting other eurozone members. The Germans have "killed" their own rent System (Rister), have officially created a "lower class" (Hartz IV) and are now demanding the same from other countries which can't really defend themselves because they share a currency. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
France's economy is in shambles right now, not sure what you're talking about. Surely having some work is better than having none at all? France IS a southern country. High unemployment and no economy. Everyone just whines instead of working their ass off to fix the problem. Our labor laws do more to stifle the poor sobs which work rather than protect employment and work conditions. I turn on the radio and I all I hear is bullcrap the politicians are spouting, bullcrap which places ideologies in front of actual, practical and working solutions. One guy, that guy Emmanuel Macron, said it would be nice if young people should want to be successful. You have the entire political cast which comes in and shits on the poor guy. It's like, we shouldn't have a French Bill Gates, Steve Jobs or Zuckerburg. Fuck the idiots who had a good idea and managed to turn that into success. We should ABSOLUTELY NOT ENCOURAGE successful people in France. Or that other idiot, Hollande, who just says "I don't like rich people". The idiot himself is rich, what a filthy hypocrite. In the mean time our debt has never been higher, the young population of France is inheriting a country which has massive unemployment, no industry and a massive debt. Our education is garbage as well: http://www.shanghairanking.com/FieldENG2014.html I worked in a garage last summer, you won't find a single mechanic in there who has positive thoughts for the socialist clique which is currently killing France as a country. I'm currently doing a Master's degree in mechanical / industrial engineering, no one is really happy with the socialist clique either. Only blind ideologists and the idiot people who work for the government find anything good to say about what socialism is doing in France. The actual working population doesn't have a lot to say. There's a metric shit-ton of money is going into paying off the massive debt which the current government and the one before instilled. It's very nice, defending worker rights and wages and all that horseshit, but if at the same time you're buying American Apple products produced by slave labor in China, you find yourself with a pretty stupid double standard. I'm getting angry just typing this post. "thankfully we're not from the north". what the actual fuck. thankfully we don't have jobs or a working industry, thankfully we have a pseudo-intellectual elite which decides for us what we should think and say | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
- France in shamble ? That's because you're a clueless guy who eat everything the stupid media is putting in your bowl and who don't understand that all this discourse that france is economically ruined is a plot to make you accept reform that goes against the interests of the 90% - France is the country in europe with the biggest number of millionaire in dollars, it's the second biggest economy of europe, has one of the best productivity in the world, a set of infrastructure well developped, even our economic performance since the 2007 crisis are not that bad, just average for the eurozone. Our economical problems are largely linked to our monetary policies since Mitterand - the shitbag who started at the far right to finish at the far left, who started this strategy of the "strong franc" and then stupidly created the euro - and to be fair politicians don't want to fix our unemployment. - you're well fed by the socialist party to hate your country that much. Congrats on insulting your "brothers" fellow citizens (yeah fraternity right ?), those lazy shitbag who refuse to "work their ass off". That's a good exemple of ignorance, just go outthere in the street and see if people are working or not. Or even better, go live in Germany and live the northern dream, you'll be a proud and productive citizen in a beautiful economy. Also, congratz in resuming "the south" to the economic trouble they are facing today. I guess culture and history are useless for the productive part of our society. I'd actually be pretty proud to be a Greek (if I was), despite the fact that their economy is effectively ruined, just for their history and their culture : can you accept that ? | ||
zatic
Zurich15345 Posts
On February 23 2015 17:50 Velr wrote: Germany had falling "real" wages for the longest time... Now tell me, how should other countries exactly compete with that when the people there are't willing to fuck themselves like the Germans did (or aren't being betrayed as hard by their own goverment like the Germans were?). Germany spits out awesome numbers but thats about it. These numbers don't do shit for their own populance and are actively hurting other eurozone members. Aside from just "awesome numbers" Germany also spits out the best industrial products in the world and is home to over 1000 companies that are world market leaders in their respective niche - and have been in that position well before any Hartz reforms or common currency. I am not disagreeing that pressure on wages and the Euro helped the German industry's competitiveness. But reading this thread it seems like people seem to forget that Germany has become, been, and still is an economic powerhouse on the merit of their outstanding products and services first. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
We all agree that Germany is the strongest economy of europe, but its current situation is also favored by the euro and its nationalist policy. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15345 Posts
On February 23 2015 19:13 WhiteDog wrote: In fact it all start at this point zatic : you cannot expect Greece to be as productive as Germany in ten years. There is such a huge difference, even between France and Greece actually, that a common currency is a stupid idea. I am not expecting that, and I largely share your assessment on why the common currency is a problem. I just like to drop in the occasional advocacy against the blame Germany bandwagon that tends to gather behind the WhiteDog flag. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10764 Posts
On February 23 2015 19:10 zatic wrote: Aside from just "awesome numbers" Germany also spits out the best industrial products in the world and is home to over 1000 companies that are world market leaders in their respective niche - and have been in that position well before any Hartz reforms or common currency. I am not disagreeing that pressure on wages and the Euro helped the German industry's competitiveness. But reading this thread it seems like people seem to forget that Germany has become, been, and still is an economic powerhouse on the merit of their outstanding products and services first. I don't disagree with you. I actually strongly agree. Yeah, Germany was in a crysis for some time, but when taking into account the reunfinication and the cost attached to it, this hardly should be a suprise. Germanies industry was allways highly competetive. So the quesiton is, why were these harsh(!) reforms, that hurt so many People, necessary? Its a prime example of lobbyism "winning" over the common interest of the population. That it was done by the "left" makes it actually kinda "hilarious". | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 23 2015 19:17 zatic wrote: I am not expecting that, and I largely share your assessment on why the common currency is a problem. I just like to drop in the occasional advocacy against the blame Germany bandwagon that tends to gather behind the WhiteDog flag. I critcize German policies but never germans tho. I also believe that the problem is the euro and not Germany. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15345 Posts
On February 23 2015 19:22 Velr wrote: I don't disagree with you. I actually strongly agree. Yeah, Germany was in a crysis for some time, but when taking into account the reunfinication and the cost attached to it, this hardly should be a suprise. Germanies industry was allways highly competetive. So the quesiton is, why were these harsh(!) reforms, that hurt so many People, necessary? Its a prime example of lobbyism "winning" over the common interest of the population. That it was done by the "left" makes it actually kinda "hilarious". We have to take into account that the reforms were implemented in a completely different economic and political climate. The early 2000s were the high time of economic liberalization and a political gravitation towards the liberal-right. It was the time the US and the UK truly did spit out awesome numbers, while continental Europe, mainly Germany, seemed to be falling behind. There was a sort of emotional depression in Germany that was much more severe than what the actual economic situation warranted. Probably something similar to what WhiteDog describes from France today. Together with a very charismatic group in the leadership who understood the public mood very well and were tragically mislead in their agenda the mixture was there to implement the reforms Germany did. I find it more hilarious what the reforms and the opposition to them did to the political right in Germany than it did to the Left. I don't know if many people even remember this, but in 2005 Merkel, prematurely certain of her victory and full of hubris, campaigned on a neo-liberal ticket of an economic radicalism Germany has never seen. It was probably the first time a politician campaigned with the promise "less for everyone, guaranteed". When that campaign essentially lost the elections her conservative party did a complete 180 and practically overnight turned from neo-liberal into social democratic. I guess from the viewpoint of the Euro-crisis we can all be thankful her campaign back then failed so spectacularly, or the slope of competitiveness between Germany and her neighbors would be a sheer cliff today. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On February 23 2015 18:48 WhiteDog wrote: - I never said the north had no culture, far from it (my library is full of german thinkers - Marx, Weber and Nietzsche ?), I'm saying we're closer to the south and thankfully ; - France in shamble ? That's because you're a clueless guy who eat everything the stupid media is putting in your bowl and who don't understand that all this discourse that france is economically ruined is a plot to make you accept reform that goes against the interests of the 90% - France is the country in europe with the biggest number of millionaire in dollars, it's the second biggest economy of europe, has one of the best productivity in the world, a set of infrastructure well developped, even our economic performance since the 2007 crisis are not that bad, just average for the eurozone. Our economical problems are largely linked to our monetary policies since Mitterand - the shitbag who started at the far right to finish at the far left, who started this strategy of the "strong franc" and then stupidly created the euro - and to be fair politicians don't want to fix our unemployment. - you're well fed by the socialist party to hate your country that much. Congrats on insulting your "brothers" fellow citizens (yeah fraternity right ?), those lazy shitbag who refuse to "work their ass off". That's a good exemple of ignorance, just go outthere in the street and see if people are working or not. Or even better, go live in Germany and live the northern dream, you'll be a proud and productive citizen in a beautiful economy. Also, congratz in resuming "the south" to the economic trouble they are facing today. I guess culture and history are useless for the productive part of our society. I'd actually be pretty proud to be a Greek (if I was), despite the fact that their economy is effectively ruined, just for their history and their culture : can you accept that ? I agree with that. Though I have a very difficult time seeing where and how our economy is doing "well", given the massive unemployment we have and the debt we've accumulated. I have a massive dislike for the French government (current and former) as well as the clueless pseudo-intellectual French elites (grandes écoles, franc maçonnerie). Work conditions in France aren't protected at all, our productivity is OK? Maybe? I don't know, we're a LOT less industrialized than we used to be. A lot of factories have been closed down over the past years. I love my country however I reserve the right to criticize it (violently) and I think that saying that France is doing well economically at the moment is kind of a joke. There debt that France is taking on is doing nothing but growing. Let me tell you, friend, the politicians in power today aren't the ones who are going to pay back that loan. France's future generations are. I have no reason whatsoever to be satisfied with the way the country is run. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Dette_publique_France_1979-2014T2.png | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
You talk about the public debt, but what about the fact that we have no inflation since 30 years (sure help for the debt right ?), what about the fact that the state bought out the banks for an absurd amount after the crisis, what about the fact that the current greek debt was entirely detained by banks and private institutions until our glorious politicians decided to make it entirely public because well you know we can't let our banks have risky assets ? You make it seem like the guy working for minimum wage, or worst the unemployed guy who have social security and free card for public transportation is responsible for the debt. Isn't it absurd ? And can you really, today, criticize france and not our system of "grandes écoles" ou "classes préparatoires" that cost a shit ton of public money to give the best education possible to the already most favored and rich part of our society ? Can you really criticize france without criticizing our tax system, heavy on indirect tax such as the TVA ? I'm all for criticizing our government, I actually dislike them so much I'd prefer voting for Sarkozy to prevent Hollande or Valls to get into power again, but at least be fair and don't put the blame on the poor guy that seek a job for a year only to find some short term proposition in a restaurant or a supermarket. We're a lot less industrialized because the euro does that : it force countries into specializing theirselves to gain from competitivity advantage. Germany specialized itself in production of industrialized goods (because it was already the most productive country in europe in this regard), we specialized in services. Is it bad ? Yes. But it was foretold by economists such as Alain Cotta (who was Mitterand economist btw, but against the euro, debate in french that deal with this matter below). + Show Spoiler + http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xh0zmp_euro-le-debat-entre-daniel-cohen-et-alain-cotta_news By the way, I never said we were doing well, I'm saying we're not ruined. We're actually filthy rich compared to most countries. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On February 23 2015 19:55 zatic wrote: ... a politician campaigned with the promise "less for everyone, guaranteed". At least she was being honest about it. | ||
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Alathya
Germany0 Posts
iirc, the baltic states and other easern countries e.g. Slovenia had to undergo drastic reforms and changes as well due to the economic crysis. Still, there had been way less noise about it compared to Greece. Did those changes have been just way less drastic compared to Greece or did "we" just cared less? | ||
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