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Idiots exist. What other breaking news do you have in store?
Unless we see evidence of immigrants being given leeway after doing such things (which "alternative" media allege is the case, but I haven't really seen much beyond that), this is not a big story. Idiocy-fuelled violence happens literally all the time between white european christians and nobody raises and eyebrow.
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Right. Idiots exist. Now if you multiply the average idiocy with a cancerous, fundamentalist ideology and you get what we're going to have to deal with more and more.
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On June 09 2016 22:29 DickMcFanny wrote:
Right. Idiots exist. Now if you multiply the average idiocy with a cancerous, fundamentalist ideology and you get what we're going to have to deal with more and more.
I see nothing stupider in this than Christians intimidating and attacking abortion clinics. It is terrible, but also nothing that humanity has not dealt with before. Claims that “this is what appeasement gets you” are just hyperbolic. Do you really expect a productive discussion about tolerance when you lump all 1.5 billion Muslim in with these two idiots?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On June 09 2016 13:29 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 10:42 oneofthem wrote:
there is really egregious language at the head of it, and also the expulsion act itself is a black letter no in asylum law. this mass expulsion without individualized examination would require extraordinary justification because of the procedural defect
so an alarming reaction to this deal is very justified. either the court will strike it down or it would be acting outside of core asylum law principle in upholding the deal. On the other hand, many of the migrants do not want to be registered in Greece because they want to get to Germany by whatever means necessary, or know that they barely make a chance of obtaining refugee status because they come from countries that are at peace (Iran, Bangladesh, Morocco ...). This makes them illegal immigrants, not asylum seekers (per Dublin regulations you are required to register in the country of entry, not whichever country you find most suitable). If I'm not mistaken, Greece only sends back those who either refuse registration or had their asylum requests denied.
greece is sending pending petitioners to turkey. those who 'refuse registration' would be absconding to the north already, so greece has no control over these. greece has right to return ineligible petitioners after an individual assessment, so there would not be controversy with the second kind of situation.
main problem is there is lack of an individualized assessment whether for dublin determination or asylum/subsidiary protection. even in the dublin system, if someone is say in germany and really should be in greece, there has to be an individual assessment, as opposed to returning groups of people indiscriminately.
greece is already overwhelmed with asylum petitions that there is a fair claim to be made that returning some of the higher status claims (like, from syria/afghanistan etc) to greece would also be in violation of the system's design. this is why some countries suspended the dublin rules partially. refugees would still have to register at the place of entry, but they have incentive to run away. greece does not want to process the petitioners without receiving financial assistance, and the process itself is pretty complicated and slow already, so the people they cite as deportable to turkey are really those who are stuck in the limbo of the asylum system.
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quite symptomatic of the huge social pressure you get coming from a muslim environment
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
they need to fight against radical/unworkable ideas like sharia law stuff. not up to the level of deporting these people but certainly more positive education and deislamization.
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On June 09 2016 22:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 22:29 DickMcFanny wrote:
Right. Idiots exist. Now if you multiply the average idiocy with a cancerous, fundamentalist ideology and you get what we're going to have to deal with more and more. I see nothing stupider in this than Christians intimidating and attacking abortion clinics. It is terrible, but also nothing that humanity has not dealt with before. Claims that “this is what appeasement gets you” are just hyperbolic. Do you really expect a productive discussion about tolerance when you lump all 1.5 billion Muslim in with these two idiots?
At what point do all those isolated incidents become a trend?
I mean, if 60% of Republicans believe that abortion is murder and that abortion doctors should be killed, would you still use the phrase "lumping in"?
What does it take for people to consider that there might be something wrong with the underlying ideology of Islam?
You think because the Turkish family in your neighborhood is well integrated, there can't be anything wrong with the ideology. But it's a fact that most (as in: a majority of, more than 50%) of Muslims believe that Sharia law should be the law of the land. And that's not a single poll in Saudi Arabia. More than 50% believe that apostates should be killed. More than 15% of English (i. e. living in England) Muslims think that people who insult the prophet should be killed.
The overwhelming majority have an ideology that if it were expressed by a political party, we would call them right wing extremists.
These aren't "isolated incidents", this is systemic insanity.
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On June 09 2016 22:46 oneofthem wrote:
they need to fight against radical/unworkable ideas like sharia law stuff. not up to the level of deporting these people but certainly more positive education and deislamization.
well good luck with that
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On June 09 2016 22:46 oneofthem wrote:
they need to fight against radical/unworkable ideas like the parts of sharia law that are not compatible with western laws and culture. not up to the level of deporting these people but certainly more positive education and deislamization.
Updated that for you. Sharia law, like a lot of religious codes/laws, is a broad topic and has a lot of interpretations. If you bore into the topic with a many Muslims, it's not as perscriptive and set in stone as the media makes it out to be.
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On June 09 2016 22:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 22:46 oneofthem wrote:
they need to fight against radical/unworkable ideas like the parts of sharia law that are not compatible with western laws and culture. not up to the level of deporting these people but certainly more positive education and deislamization. Updated that for you. Sharia law, like a lot of religious codes/laws, is a broad topic and has a lot of interpretations. If you bore into the topic with a many Muslims, it's not as perscriptive and set in stone as the media makes it out to be.
Taking the word of a few sophisticated, western Muslim theologians is hardly representative of the mainstream views of Muslims around the world.
That's just as wrong as taking ISIS' action and claiming they represent the wider Islamic world view.
It's always baffling to me how people like you, who live by liberal ideas bend over backwards to pretend that illiberal ideas aren't pervasive in Islam.
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On June 09 2016 22:48 DickMcFanny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 22:36 Plansix wrote:On June 09 2016 22:29 DickMcFanny wrote:
Right. Idiots exist. Now if you multiply the average idiocy with a cancerous, fundamentalist ideology and you get what we're going to have to deal with more and more. I see nothing stupider in this than Christians intimidating and attacking abortion clinics. It is terrible, but also nothing that humanity has not dealt with before. Claims that “this is what appeasement gets you” are just hyperbolic. Do you really expect a productive discussion about tolerance when you lump all 1.5 billion Muslim in with these two idiots? At what point do all those isolated incidents become a trend? I mean, if 60% of Republicans believe that abortion is murder and that abortion doctors should be killed, would you still use the phrase "lumping in"? What does it take for people to consider that there might be something wrong with the underlying ideology of Islam? You think because the Turkish family in your neighborhood is well integrated, there can't be anything wrong with the ideology. But it's a fact that most (as in: a majority of, more than 50%) of Muslims believe that Sharia law should be the law of the land. And that's not a single poll in Saudi Arabia. More than 50% believe that apostates should be killed. More than 15% of English (i. e. living in England) Muslims think that people who insult the prophet should be killed.
The overwhelming majority have an ideology that if it were expressed by a political party, we would call them right wing extremists.These aren't "isolated incidents", this is systemic insanity.
Sorry, but these numbers are one big "citation needed" poster. Those often turn out to be not quite what they are used to represent.
Don't get me wrong, I think that there is a lot of really bad ideology at work in a lot of countries where Islam is the main religion. But there are two things that the current "refugee hate" movement does wrong. One is dramatic overblowing of every incident that happens, without context, the other is the generalization at personal level. To me, in its core, Islam isn't better or worse than Christianity - because it's as open to interpretation and to cultural influences.
I don't really see what good are you expecting to make by lumping what happens in Saudi Arabia with every other Muslim in the world. I am afraid that what eludes you is the simple observation that in absence of the Islam, the same people who are now imposing "Sharia" would probably subvert any other convenient belief system lying around to their needs.
I have traveled enough Arab countries to be pretty darn sure that I don't want their culture imported (yes, I enjoy me some good shwarma, but that's about it) - but yet I am not really afraid of that happening just because of isolated problems here and there.
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On June 09 2016 22:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 22:29 DickMcFanny wrote:
Right. Idiots exist. Now if you multiply the average idiocy with a cancerous, fundamentalist ideology and you get what we're going to have to deal with more and more. I see nothing stupider in this than Christians intimidating and attacking abortion clinics. It is terrible, but also nothing that humanity has not dealt with before. Claims that “this is what appeasement gets you” are just hyperbolic. Do you really expect a productive discussion about tolerance when you lump all 1.5 billion Muslim in with these two idiots?
Where in Western europe do we see Christians attacking abortion clinics? Maybe this happens in the US but Ive never seen it over here.
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On June 09 2016 22:55 DickMcFanny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 22:53 Plansix wrote:On June 09 2016 22:46 oneofthem wrote:
they need to fight against radical/unworkable ideas like the parts of sharia law that are not compatible with western laws and culture. not up to the level of deporting these people but certainly more positive education and deislamization. Updated that for you. Sharia law, like a lot of religious codes/laws, is a broad topic and has a lot of interpretations. If you bore into the topic with a many Muslims, it's not as perscriptive and set in stone as the media makes it out to be. Taking the word of a few sophisticated, western Muslim theologians is hardly representative of the mainstream views of Muslims around the world. That's just as wrong as taking ISIS' action and claiming they represent the wider Islamic world view. It's always baffling to me how people like you, who live by liberal ideas bend over backwards to pretend that illiberal ideas aren't pervasive in Islam.
I never said that they were and of course there are a lot of Muslim countries and nations that I would love to see adopt more progressive views on civil rights, equality and tolerance. I just don’t believe that talking down to them and telling them that the teachings of Islam are regressive is going to change any minds.
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On June 09 2016 23:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 22:55 DickMcFanny wrote:On June 09 2016 22:53 Plansix wrote:On June 09 2016 22:46 oneofthem wrote:
they need to fight against radical/unworkable ideas like the parts of sharia law that are not compatible with western laws and culture. not up to the level of deporting these people but certainly more positive education and deislamization. Updated that for you. Sharia law, like a lot of religious codes/laws, is a broad topic and has a lot of interpretations. If you bore into the topic with a many Muslims, it's not as perscriptive and set in stone as the media makes it out to be. Taking the word of a few sophisticated, western Muslim theologians is hardly representative of the mainstream views of Muslims around the world. That's just as wrong as taking ISIS' action and claiming they represent the wider Islamic world view. It's always baffling to me how people like you, who live by liberal ideas bend over backwards to pretend that illiberal ideas aren't pervasive in Islam. I never said that they were and of course there are a lot of Muslim countries and nations that I would love to see adopt more progressive views on civil rights, equality and tolerance. I just don’t believe that talking down to them and telling them that the teachings of Islam are regressive is going to change any minds.
Right, you're probably not going to change their minds.
But there's two ways to handle this:
1. build Mosques and say: "Our civil rights are less important than your religion, go nuts!"
2. say: "You're welcome to join us, but leave your dark age ideology at the door."
We JUST got rid of most of our own (mostly religious, but some secular) illiberalism, we don't need to invite a new one.
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We need to get control over the education future Imams get (well, we should have taken this control 40 years ago, now the shitshow is allready in full swing...).
One of the main problems is, that Islam in europe is mainly teached by people that studied Islam in some backwather countries.
Going into full "contra" mode won't achieve anything or, more likely, create a big backlash... sadly, because that would be way easier (and faster).
Btw: We didn't get rid of iliberalism, we educated it away over hundreds of years.
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Exactly. It took centuries to deal with this problem in the EU and US. And it’s not completely dealt with. This isn’t an problem you solve by telling people adopt western values or leave. That isn’t a strong case as to why they are better. It will be a slow process that is dealt with case by case.
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On June 09 2016 23:56 Plansix wrote:
Exactly. It took centuries to deal with this problem in the EU and US. And it’s not completely dealt with. This isn’t an problem you solve by telling people adopt western values or leave. That isn’t a strong case as to why they are better. It will be a slow process that is dealt with case by case.
You are right, this is an issue you solve by telling immigrants to adopt the country's values or they won't be granted citizenship...
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On June 10 2016 00:22 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 23:56 Plansix wrote:
Exactly. It took centuries to deal with this problem in the EU and US. And it’s not completely dealt with. This isn’t an problem you solve by telling people adopt western values or leave. That isn’t a strong case as to why they are better. It will be a slow process that is dealt with case by case. You are right, this is an issue you solve by telling immigrants to adopt the country's values or they won't be granted citizenship...
How are you going to enforce it? Ministry of Thought is going to check their EEGs?
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On June 10 2016 00:22 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 23:56 Plansix wrote:
Exactly. It took centuries to deal with this problem in the EU and US. And it’s not completely dealt with. This isn’t an problem you solve by telling people adopt western values or leave. That isn’t a strong case as to why they are better. It will be a slow process that is dealt with case by case. You are right, this is an issue you solve by telling immigrants to adopt the country's values or they won't be granted citizenship...
That is literally the oath people take when they become US citizens. I bet it’s the same for other nations.
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On June 10 2016 00:22 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 23:56 Plansix wrote:
Exactly. It took centuries to deal with this problem in the EU and US. And it’s not completely dealt with. This isn’t an problem you solve by telling people adopt western values or leave. That isn’t a strong case as to why they are better. It will be a slow process that is dealt with case by case. You are right, this is an issue you solve by telling immigrants to adopt the country's values or they won't be granted citizenship...
It's too late for that, guys like Salah Abdeslam already have European citizenship
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EPT
