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On October 24 2018 19:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 19:11 Gorsameth wrote:On October 24 2018 19:01 TheDwf wrote:On October 24 2018 07:33 Xamo wrote:
Italy receives 5 billion euros every year from EU cohesion funds. The EU can freeze them if Italy does not cooperate. That is a pretty big punishment... In which case Italy would simply suspend its contribution to the EU budget... I find it absolutely insane that you're talking about unelected bureaucrats freezing billions of euros simply because Italy's deficit—after a democratic vote—will be 2.4% instead of 1.6%, all while a fascist is gaining momentum and polling near 30%. Do you have any idea how dangerous this is? Agreements were made about the deficit, this budget breaks those agreements. I fail to see the problem. As a new government you inherit commits made by your predecessor and you break those commitments at your own risk. That is how the world works. The agreements were made by the previous government, which heavily lost elections. They're worthless. Democracy is the possibility to undo through votes what others previously did, and partisans of neoliberal theocracies would be well advised to remember that before bigger and bigger political disasters happen
If you are serious about this then that's the end of the European union lol.
@big j. I did read your response,i don't think its worth going into it deeper for now as I have problems with pretty much everything you said. I am progressive myself on some political subjects,but also conservative on some other political isues. Its all part of political discourse,which is anything but a disgrace imo. Conservative for the sake of conservative is bad yes. But there are often very good and valid reasons to be conservative about an issue. Stability can (not is per definition) be one of those reasons. I think you see it as being much more black and white then I do.
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Italy I don't know,its an interesting situation to see what will happen. There doesn't seem to be much panic about Italy in Europe yet. Juncker even made a joke about it sort of.
Having another crisis right when we are finally climbing out of the previous one would be horrible,curious about a solution but I think Italy will make a few small changes with the budget and Europe will then accept the budget which will still be out of line but just for the sake of not wasting the progress that has been made,maybe deal with it at a later time.
Or eu can put pressure on inexperienced government of Italy. It would be a sort of bluff because if Europe pushes hard and Italy doesn't fold then we have another euro crisis which would be pretty much the end of the eu.Italy is to big to fail. Italy doesn't have that much choice either though,eu falling apart would be more horrible for Italy then it would be for Germany. I don't think this will lead to euro crisis,but there is some risk.
Brexit is different:england can afford to leave,italy can not (at least that's what I think).
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For the EU vs Italy conflict, financial markets will ultimately decide, since the ruling classes were clever enough to settle them as the great arbiter in case peoples rebel.
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On October 25 2018 07:46 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 19:44 TheDwf wrote:On October 24 2018 19:11 Gorsameth wrote:On October 24 2018 19:01 TheDwf wrote:On October 24 2018 07:33 Xamo wrote:
Italy receives 5 billion euros every year from EU cohesion funds. The EU can freeze them if Italy does not cooperate. That is a pretty big punishment... In which case Italy would simply suspend its contribution to the EU budget... I find it absolutely insane that you're talking about unelected bureaucrats freezing billions of euros simply because Italy's deficit—after a democratic vote—will be 2.4% instead of 1.6%, all while a fascist is gaining momentum and polling near 30%. Do you have any idea how dangerous this is? Agreements were made about the deficit, this budget breaks those agreements. I fail to see the problem. As a new government you inherit commits made by your predecessor and you break those commitments at your own risk. That is how the world works. The agreements were made by the previous government, which heavily lost elections. They're worthless. Democracy is the possibility to undo through votes what others previously did, and partisans of neoliberal theocracies would be well advised to remember that before bigger and bigger political disasters happen If you are serious about this then that's the end of the European union lol. @big j. I did read your response,i don't think its worth going into it deeper for now as I have problems with pretty much everything you said. I am progressive myself on some political subjects,but also conservative on some other political isues. Its all part of political discourse,which is anything but a disgrace imo. Conservative for the sake of conservative is bad yes. But there are often very good and valid reasons to be conservative about an issue. Stability can (not is per definition) be one of those reasons. I think you see it as being much more black and white then I do.
Then you are not conservative. If you have a rational argument you are not conservative, your opinion is simply represented by keeping things as they are. You use conserving things as a means to an end.
Conservativism is when you have no rational argumentation and all you do is repeat the phrase: "I don't want X to change.", usually in different tautologies like "stability", "tradition", "cultural heritage", "destiny" etc.
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...you realise that declaring your own narrow fringe definition of a word in question doesn't actually count as an argument, right?
So far we've had one no-true-Scotsman per page on democracy and then conservatism. I'm interested to see what's next.
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He's right though, not wanting to change thing X or Y doesn't automatically make you "conservative"
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On October 25 2018 20:57 TheDwf wrote:
He's right though, not wanting to change thing X or Y doesn't automatically make you "conservative"
Declaring you're conservative because you oppose change for many things for "reasons" probably does though...
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On October 25 2018 19:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 07:46 pmh wrote:On October 24 2018 19:44 TheDwf wrote:On October 24 2018 19:11 Gorsameth wrote:On October 24 2018 19:01 TheDwf wrote:On October 24 2018 07:33 Xamo wrote:
Italy receives 5 billion euros every year from EU cohesion funds. The EU can freeze them if Italy does not cooperate. That is a pretty big punishment... In which case Italy would simply suspend its contribution to the EU budget... I find it absolutely insane that you're talking about unelected bureaucrats freezing billions of euros simply because Italy's deficit—after a democratic vote—will be 2.4% instead of 1.6%, all while a fascist is gaining momentum and polling near 30%. Do you have any idea how dangerous this is? Agreements were made about the deficit, this budget breaks those agreements. I fail to see the problem. As a new government you inherit commits made by your predecessor and you break those commitments at your own risk. That is how the world works. The agreements were made by the previous government, which heavily lost elections. They're worthless. Democracy is the possibility to undo through votes what others previously did, and partisans of neoliberal theocracies would be well advised to remember that before bigger and bigger political disasters happen If you are serious about this then that's the end of the European union lol. @big j. I did read your response,i don't think its worth going into it deeper for now as I have problems with pretty much everything you said. I am progressive myself on some political subjects,but also conservative on some other political isues. Its all part of political discourse,which is anything but a disgrace imo. Conservative for the sake of conservative is bad yes. But there are often very good and valid reasons to be conservative about an issue. Stability can (not is per definition) be one of those reasons. I think you see it as being much more black and white then I do. Then you are not conservative. If you have a rational argument you are not conservative, your opinion is simply represented by keeping things as they are. You use conserving things as a means to an end. Conservativism is when you have no rational argumentation and all you do is repeat the phrase: "I don't want X to change.", usually in different tautologies like "stability", "tradition", "cultural heritage", "destiny" etc.
Guess if you have a rational argument in favor of change you are not progressive then? ;-)
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On October 25 2018 21:14 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 19:22 Big J wrote:On October 25 2018 07:46 pmh wrote:On October 24 2018 19:44 TheDwf wrote:On October 24 2018 19:11 Gorsameth wrote:On October 24 2018 19:01 TheDwf wrote:On October 24 2018 07:33 Xamo wrote:
Italy receives 5 billion euros every year from EU cohesion funds. The EU can freeze them if Italy does not cooperate. That is a pretty big punishment... In which case Italy would simply suspend its contribution to the EU budget... I find it absolutely insane that you're talking about unelected bureaucrats freezing billions of euros simply because Italy's deficit—after a democratic vote—will be 2.4% instead of 1.6%, all while a fascist is gaining momentum and polling near 30%. Do you have any idea how dangerous this is? Agreements were made about the deficit, this budget breaks those agreements. I fail to see the problem. As a new government you inherit commits made by your predecessor and you break those commitments at your own risk. That is how the world works. The agreements were made by the previous government, which heavily lost elections. They're worthless. Democracy is the possibility to undo through votes what others previously did, and partisans of neoliberal theocracies would be well advised to remember that before bigger and bigger political disasters happen If you are serious about this then that's the end of the European union lol. @big j. I did read your response,i don't think its worth going into it deeper for now as I have problems with pretty much everything you said. I am progressive myself on some political subjects,but also conservative on some other political isues. Its all part of political discourse,which is anything but a disgrace imo. Conservative for the sake of conservative is bad yes. But there are often very good and valid reasons to be conservative about an issue. Stability can (not is per definition) be one of those reasons. I think you see it as being much more black and white then I do. Then you are not conservative. If you have a rational argument you are not conservative, your opinion is simply represented by keeping things as they are. You use conserving things as a means to an end. Conservativism is when you have no rational argumentation and all you do is repeat the phrase: "I don't want X to change.", usually in different tautologies like "stability", "tradition", "cultural heritage", "destiny" etc. Guess if you have a rational argument in favor of change you are not progressive then? ;-)
It should be precised that "change" doesn't necessarily mean "progress" either. (Just saying.)
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On October 25 2018 20:39 Belisarius wrote:
...you realise that declaring your own narrow fringe definition of a word in question doesn't actually count as an argument, right?
So far we've had one no-true-Scotsman per page on democracy and then conservatism. I'm interested to see what's next.
You realize that the no true scotsman example is exactly about what happens if you don't use a definition?
I really don't care which definition to use throughout a discussion if someone actually gave one and stuck to it. Since noone does, I am just using those definitions that stem from the meaning of the words:
Democracy - greek word for rulership of the people
Conservativism - the ideology to conserve things as they are
Liberalism - the ideology of freedom (of the individual)
Socialism - the ideology of solidarity (lat. "socialis")
Here is your chance: define those words if you are unhappy with the descriptions above. Go ahead and say that "democracy is if someone elects someone" and then I will happily tell you that the EU is a democracy.
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On October 25 2018 21:14 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 19:22 Big J wrote:On October 25 2018 07:46 pmh wrote:On October 24 2018 19:44 TheDwf wrote:On October 24 2018 19:11 Gorsameth wrote:On October 24 2018 19:01 TheDwf wrote:On October 24 2018 07:33 Xamo wrote:
Italy receives 5 billion euros every year from EU cohesion funds. The EU can freeze them if Italy does not cooperate. That is a pretty big punishment... In which case Italy would simply suspend its contribution to the EU budget... I find it absolutely insane that you're talking about unelected bureaucrats freezing billions of euros simply because Italy's deficit—after a democratic vote—will be 2.4% instead of 1.6%, all while a fascist is gaining momentum and polling near 30%. Do you have any idea how dangerous this is? Agreements were made about the deficit, this budget breaks those agreements. I fail to see the problem. As a new government you inherit commits made by your predecessor and you break those commitments at your own risk. That is how the world works. The agreements were made by the previous government, which heavily lost elections. They're worthless. Democracy is the possibility to undo through votes what others previously did, and partisans of neoliberal theocracies would be well advised to remember that before bigger and bigger political disasters happen If you are serious about this then that's the end of the European union lol. @big j. I did read your response,i don't think its worth going into it deeper for now as I have problems with pretty much everything you said. I am progressive myself on some political subjects,but also conservative on some other political isues. Its all part of political discourse,which is anything but a disgrace imo. Conservative for the sake of conservative is bad yes. But there are often very good and valid reasons to be conservative about an issue. Stability can (not is per definition) be one of those reasons. I think you see it as being much more black and white then I do. Then you are not conservative. If you have a rational argument you are not conservative, your opinion is simply represented by keeping things as they are. You use conserving things as a means to an end. Conservativism is when you have no rational argumentation and all you do is repeat the phrase: "I don't want X to change.", usually in different tautologies like "stability", "tradition", "cultural heritage", "destiny" etc. Guess if you have a rational argument in favor of change you are not progressive then? ;-)
The whole conservative-progressive duality is bullshit.
Who defines what "the status quo" to preserve is? When I change my mind and buy apples instead of oranges the conservatives will tell me it is "not progress", even though the status quo has clearly changed, because it happened withinthe established rulesystem. If 100.000 Africans migrate according to the rules of the established rulesystem, the same people will tell me that we are changing too much and we need more conservativism.
Also "Progressives" like TheDwf will tell you that not all change is progressive.
I ask you, who are those angels that judge what progress is and what not and what its "speed" is? The decisions of people are what make the world, not some abstract and arbitrary judgement that talks about similarities between recent and previous judgements. It is the centralized planning trap all over again.
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Macronomics still failing: according to the Minister of Labour, unemployment rose by 0.5% in the third trimester in France.
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On October 24 2018 19:01 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 07:33 Xamo wrote:
Italy receives 5 billion euros every year from EU cohesion funds. The EU can freeze them if Italy does not cooperate. That is a pretty big punishment... In which case Italy would simply suspend its contribution to the EU budget... I find it absolutely insane that you're talking about unelected bureaucrats freezing billions of euros simply because Italy's deficit—after a democratic vote—will be 2.4% instead of 1.6%, all while a fascist is gaining momentum and polling near 30%. Do you have any idea how dangerous this is?
The freeze on cohesion funds would be legal, backed up by the EU treaties, signed by Italy. The suspension you theorise about would not, it would brake the treaties. That makes a big difference. None of both will happen though, they are going to negotiate.
Perhaps if you would tone your exaggerations down your arguments would have more chance to prevail... I can talk about anything I want in an Internet forum and it would not be an act of “absolute insanity”. The Comission is not unelected, but elected by indirect democracy. Salvini is at the far right but not a fascist (yet). These kind of interested exaggerations polarise the political discussion and, as a result, favour left- and right-winged populism way more than any action of the EU in defence of the rules that were signed by all its members.
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Great, so now France shares its largest border with a country led by a fascist.
What's going on in Germany? I read that Merkel will not seek again the CDU presidency after the heavy losses of the GroKo in Hesse yesterday?
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Another German state elections, another -10% each for the CDU and SPD and another +9% each for Greens and AfD.
Greens took the symbolic second place with 19.8% and 94 votes more than the SPD (CDU: 27%, AfD: 13.1%, FDP: 7.5%, Left: 6.3%).
Young socialist leader Keving Kühnert calls that the not-so-grand coalition is at its end, Merkel does not want to recandidate for the CDU, the CSU probably needs a new leadership as well, SPD chief Nahles wants programmatic changes but wants to keep on working with the CDU/CSU.
Insert SPD *this is fine* meme.
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England2814 Posts
End of the Merkel era on the horizon. Wow. It's only when you think about her being gone that you realise just how long she's been iin that position.
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Extremes are getting closer: both Macron and Le Pen congratulated the fascist Bolsanoro for his victory.
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England2814 Posts
On October 29 2018 21:21 TheDwf wrote:
Extremes are getting closer: both Macron and Le Pen congratulated the fascist Bolsanoro for his victory.
Isn't that just normal politics though? Or is there something different with Bolsanoro? I'm not familiar with the name.
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On October 29 2018 21:56 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2018 21:21 TheDwf wrote:
Extremes are getting closer: both Macron and Le Pen congratulated the fascist Bolsanoro for his victory. Isn't that just normal politics though? Or is there something different with Bolsanoro? I'm not familiar with the name.
An extremely right wing autocrat, who won the presidential election in Brazil. Kinda reminding of Duterte in his language.
And of course it is normal politics for a PM to congratulate an elected leader of a foreign country, even if one despises him.
But psht! That ruins the story. Obviously the real reason must be that Macron is a secret closet fascist!
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Bolsonaro is the right wing demagogue who won the brazillian president election yesterday. And yeah, it's standard for big political figures to congratulate each other after a win, ideological sympathy or no.
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EPT
