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On June 29 2014 18:18 vndestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 16:43 Duvon wrote:On June 29 2014 14:59 L1ghtning wrote:On June 29 2014 00:50 urboss wrote:
@itsjustatank
While I'm also not too fond of academic elitism, your academic-bashing is completely out of place here.
You may think of the article whatever you want, the crux that remains is quite clear:
Even though most manual labor has been automated, people are still working the same amount of time as 100 years ago.
Isn't this a little paradoxical? This is not a paradox at all. We may work the same hours, but we also produce more than 100 years ago. Ideally most ppl would like to work as little as possible, but the problem is that the less you work, the less you're producing for our society. If you work as a construction worker, you can build a house on half the amount of days, on a 8 hours day of work compared to a 4 hours day of work. This is why we still have 8 hour workdays. People would rather work more, and produce more luxuries for society, in exchange for other luxuries. If you actually enjoy your work this makes a lot of sense. For the ppl who don't enjoy their work, it makes less sense, but it's always a balance. I wholeheartedly reject the idea that finance, marketing and law are useless fields. All of those fields creates stability for companies. A company who handles their finances well will make more good decisions and less bad decisions, which increases their profit and improves their survivability. This means lower prices, greater potentials of expansion (more jobs+more goods/new type of goods), and more job stability. You guys may think that the finance sector is mostly useless, but the invention of the dutch stock exchange was crucial in propelling the western world forward, because it made resource planning more efficient. The investment sector makes sure that money is always where it needs to be. For instance, take Microsoft stocks in the 90's as an example. When the demand for computers rose, the demand of their stock rose as well, which drove up the prices of their stocks, which lead to more investments in the company, which lead to more products on the market. Microsoft would not have been able to grow as fast as it did, without efficient investment mechanisms, and without the spread of computers (to the same extent), most fields today would have been worse off today. The spread of computers have made 99% of all the companies in the world more efficient. This is why Bill Gates made so much money. All of those companies who bought Microsofts products, realized that the short term cost of buying a number of computers would be nothing compared to the long term gains. This is a good example of the power of invention. A company with good marketing will make sure that their products reaches the ppl who want them. You can't sell anything if ppl don't know it exists. Marketing is thus vital when it comes to introducing inventions to the buyers, and it's invention that moves our society forward, enabling us to produce more stuff without having to add more workhours. Law is important for similar reasons as finance. The lawyers pretty much makes sure that the company "behaves" correctly according to our laws. Corporate law would not exist if it wasn't economically justified (creates profit for the companies, by for instance preventing lawsuits). I do think that corporate law ideally shouldn't be such a big affair as it is, but the only reason why it is because of law making. If you want to blame anyone for this, then you can only blame the state. The state is necessary (atleast I think so), and bureaucracy is not necessarily bad, but if you ask me, then it's the state that is leeching on our society, that is keeping us down, but it's our own faults, because we let them do it. A company has to be productive and efficient enough to make a profit in order to survive, but the state can create and subsidize jobs at their whim. This is where the challenge of today lies. Jobs that are financed by the state are what is dragging us down. Not all jobs. I support the state using tax money to fund vital areas like law and order, healthcare and education, atleast to some extent, but a huge portion of the tax money goes to fluff, jobs that doesn't help our society prosper, and in some cases even has a negative effect. There's also no form of quality measuring mechanism for these jobs. In the free market, there are no jobs that are fluff, because you don't make any money creating fluff, and, this is why the free market is a much fairer and more ethical "authority" than the government. This is why we should strive towards a society where as many jobs as possible are on the free market, and where the free market are allowed to operate as independently as possible, without the government dictating the rules. All fair points within the box. Think a bit wider, and ask "why?" on each point you make. Because people don't like status quo and always strive for better? Maybe you should think outside the box then
So what is better? Maybe that you feel that the job you do is worth something?
That you can pursue hobbies and dreams (due to more free time)?
And this status quo - in what is it measured? must it be measured? Can't you just feel for yourself?
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Do you agree with his views?
Yes, I agree
Why are we having so many jobs no one truly needs nowadays?
You have to keep people working until they are tired so they don't think too much, and pay them only what they need to cover their expenses and afford for their leisure. It is called economic slavery.
Can we change things to get rid of those useless jobs?
Yes, quit those useless jobs and find other means to live, there is no how-to, it is your problem.
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How is this new? This is what neo-marxists have been saying for ages...
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For me the main fault of these theories seems to be the point of view. They might be right from a society point of view but most people act out of personal interest. These so called "bullshit-jobs" are genereatet mainly because someone thinks they get himself a profit and not because they are usefull for the whole society. If for example the owner of a company thinks he can sell more of his goods and make therefore more money if he install a marketing departement he will do so. And if someone thinks he get a better amount of money working in that departement instead of doing something more "productive" for the society he will do it too.
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The only interesting question is: When will the majority say its enough and do what happened so many times in history. Chop heads off people that abuse a system that should bring wealth to all in their favour. I kind of hope to see it in my life time. But it will happen. It happend so many times.
Manipulation / terror / frightening people does not work for ever. never did.
The real sad part. after such a system reset the cycle starts again  humanity to stupid to learn.
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On June 29 2014 20:16 tadL wrote:The only interesting question is: When will the majority say its enough and do what happened so many times in history. Chop heads off people that abuse a system that should bring wealth to all in their favour. I kind of hope to see it in my life time. But it will happen. It happend so many times. Manipulation / terror / frightening people does not work for ever. never did. The real sad part. after such a system reset the cycle starts again humanity to stupid to learn.
There are too many complacent and/or stupid people. Calling for others to chop heads off would also only get you into prison, unfortunately. There is also the problem that the benefactors of the current system control most of the media, so you can't even reach people without your message getting distorted or ridiculed.
In Germany our whole education system is designed so that at least 60% of all kids don't get a good education (i.e learning to think for themselves), This ensures we will always have a stupid workforce, who will do what they are told. From what I know, the education systems almost everywhere have ways to ensure a decent amount of stupid people.
I wish there were a way to start a global revolution, but I don't think there is.
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On June 29 2014 20:34 nimbim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 20:16 tadL wrote:The only interesting question is: When will the majority say its enough and do what happened so many times in history. Chop heads off people that abuse a system that should bring wealth to all in their favour. I kind of hope to see it in my life time. But it will happen. It happend so many times. Manipulation / terror / frightening people does not work for ever. never did. The real sad part. after such a system reset the cycle starts again humanity to stupid to learn. There are too many complacent and/or stupid people. Calling for others to chop heads off would also only get you into prison, unfortunately. There is also the problem that the benefactors of the current system control most of the media, so you can't even reach people without your message getting distorted or ridiculed. In Germany our whole education system is designed so that at least 60% of all kids don't get a good education (i.e learning to think for themselves), This ensures we will always have a stupid workforce, who will do what they are told. From what I know, the education systems almost everywhere have ways to ensure a decent amount of stupid people. I wish there were a way to start a global revolution, but I don't think there is.
What al load of elitist bullshit. I guess you are a highschool graduate who thinks hw knows everything now.
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On June 29 2014 20:38 cmdspinner1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 20:34 nimbim wrote:On June 29 2014 20:16 tadL wrote:The only interesting question is: When will the majority say its enough and do what happened so many times in history. Chop heads off people that abuse a system that should bring wealth to all in their favour. I kind of hope to see it in my life time. But it will happen. It happend so many times. Manipulation / terror / frightening people does not work for ever. never did. The real sad part. after such a system reset the cycle starts again humanity to stupid to learn. There are too many complacent and/or stupid people. Calling for others to chop heads off would also only get you into prison, unfortunately. There is also the problem that the benefactors of the current system control most of the media, so you can't even reach people without your message getting distorted or ridiculed. In Germany our whole education system is designed so that at least 60% of all kids don't get a good education (i.e learning to think for themselves), This ensures we will always have a stupid workforce, who will do what they are told. From what I know, the education systems almost everywhere have ways to ensure a decent amount of stupid people. I wish there were a way to start a global revolution, but I don't think there is. What al load of elitist bullshit. I guess you are a highschool graduate who thinks hw knows everything now.
My point is, even in highschool you are unlikely to learn anything about making political decisions. Individual thoughts are discouraged, while following orders is indoctrinated. For example, memorize these facts and write them down later, you will be graded for how much time you spent memorizing - that's school and it doesn't teach you anything about your decisions in life, except you should really obey that order unless you want a worse job than the next guy.
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On June 29 2014 20:56 nimbim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 20:38 cmdspinner1 wrote:On June 29 2014 20:34 nimbim wrote:On June 29 2014 20:16 tadL wrote:The only interesting question is: When will the majority say its enough and do what happened so many times in history. Chop heads off people that abuse a system that should bring wealth to all in their favour. I kind of hope to see it in my life time. But it will happen. It happend so many times. Manipulation / terror / frightening people does not work for ever. never did. The real sad part. after such a system reset the cycle starts again humanity to stupid to learn. There are too many complacent and/or stupid people. Calling for others to chop heads off would also only get you into prison, unfortunately. There is also the problem that the benefactors of the current system control most of the media, so you can't even reach people without your message getting distorted or ridiculed. In Germany our whole education system is designed so that at least 60% of all kids don't get a good education (i.e learning to think for themselves), This ensures we will always have a stupid workforce, who will do what they are told. From what I know, the education systems almost everywhere have ways to ensure a decent amount of stupid people. I wish there were a way to start a global revolution, but I don't think there is. What al load of elitist bullshit. I guess you are a highschool graduate who thinks hw knows everything now. My point is, even in highschool you are unlikely to learn anything about making political decisions. Individual thoughts are discouraged, while following orders is indoctrinated. For example, memorize these facts and write them down later, you will be graded for how much time you spent memorizing - that's school and it doesn't teach you anything about your decisions in life, except you should really obey that order unless you want a worse job than the next guy.
That wasnt the case in my school (combined real/gymnasium). I feel most German schools are full of idealistic, ultra tollerant academic women, who have nothing to do with the real world.
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On June 29 2014 20:58 cmdspinner1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 20:56 nimbim wrote:On June 29 2014 20:38 cmdspinner1 wrote:On June 29 2014 20:34 nimbim wrote:On June 29 2014 20:16 tadL wrote:The only interesting question is: When will the majority say its enough and do what happened so many times in history. Chop heads off people that abuse a system that should bring wealth to all in their favour. I kind of hope to see it in my life time. But it will happen. It happend so many times. Manipulation / terror / frightening people does not work for ever. never did. The real sad part. after such a system reset the cycle starts again humanity to stupid to learn. There are too many complacent and/or stupid people. Calling for others to chop heads off would also only get you into prison, unfortunately. There is also the problem that the benefactors of the current system control most of the media, so you can't even reach people without your message getting distorted or ridiculed. In Germany our whole education system is designed so that at least 60% of all kids don't get a good education (i.e learning to think for themselves), This ensures we will always have a stupid workforce, who will do what they are told. From what I know, the education systems almost everywhere have ways to ensure a decent amount of stupid people. I wish there were a way to start a global revolution, but I don't think there is. What al load of elitist bullshit. I guess you are a highschool graduate who thinks hw knows everything now. My point is, even in highschool you are unlikely to learn anything about making political decisions. Individual thoughts are discouraged, while following orders is indoctrinated. For example, memorize these facts and write them down later, you will be graded for how much time you spent memorizing - that's school and it doesn't teach you anything about your decisions in life, except you should really obey that order unless you want a worse job than the next guy. That wasnt the case in my school (combined real/gymnasium). I feel most German schools are full of idealistic, ultra tollerant academic women, who have nothing to do with the real world.
Well, if you have Abitur you belong to the 34% who get it in Germany. I never had a decent class before beginning the Abitur and even then it was memorizing facts for the most part.
If you went to school in Germany, you also know how children, who are mostly influenced by their family background or onset of puberty at the time, are sorted into 3 categories. In a Hauptschule a great part of the teachers has already given up, so even if you had a bad start and want to get somewhere, you get additional bricks thrown in your path. I've never heard from somebody who went to a Hauptschule and thought the lessons were great. The whole environment is designed to be bad.
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Thats because the primary purpose of school is not to educate but to keep the youth occupied (imprisoned seems so harsh :p) so that the parents can work their bullshit jobs
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So I haven't read through the OP yet.
I think the idea of bullshit jobs is ingrained in our system.
I can really only speak for myself here but most of the work in my old QA job was not required for making a better product but rather to make executives look better for their peers. So they can boast they use automated tests.
We're trained from a young age to do bullshit. Get good grades and memorize things because the teachers tell you to. If you disagree, you're immediately shunned.
A speech by a Valedictorian condemning the American Education system.
http://americaviaerica.blogspot.ca/p/speech.html
Capitalism isn't some tight net that catches all inefficiencies in a system. Often the companies that are big are just monopolies who can use their power to buy out and elbow out all competition with prior contracts. Capitalism just like any law really, even evolution tends to just local maxima. Do you think the human body is perfectly engineered? Why do animals have vestigial organs? Similarly our society is not efficient either just because we believe in competition and free labor.
The answer clearly isn’t economic: it’s moral and political. The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger (think of what started to happen when this even began to be approximated in the ‘60s). And, on the other hand, the feeling that work is a moral value in itself, and that anyone not willing to submit themselves to some kind of intense work discipline for most of their waking hours deserves nothing, is extraordinarily convenient for them.
Ok this part I take issue with. He says that the ruling class manipulates the working class to be working all the time. I say he's giving them too much credit like there's an illuminati or secret political meeting to create laws to make people work.
And the idea of people getting reward for their work is something that could date as far back as living in tribes. Unless you're injured or unable, you're expected to gather berries, hunt, or be a mystic. Hell even then we had bullshit "jobs" with shamans interpreting the spirits.
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On June 29 2014 21:16 vuur wrote:
Thats because the primary purpose of school is not to educate but to keep the youth occupied (imprisoned seems so harsh :p) so that the parents can work their bullshit jobs
Typical elitist cynisism world cospiricy blabla. Do you people actually think about the buzzwords you like to say?
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On June 29 2014 09:14 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 07:41 urboss wrote:On June 29 2014 03:44 Cynry wrote:
Ok so I'm actually gonna ask. Someone has some links to alternatives detailed ? I'm interested...
Edit : can be done by PM, as it's off topic One possibility would be the downsizing of the current economic system and the establishment of a steady state economy. I'm pretty convinced that this is the model of the future. However, the economic systems will have to crash a couple more times until the world realizes it. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady_state_economy"The increase of wealth is not boundless. The end of growth leads to a stationary state. The stationary state of capital and wealth… would be a very considerable improvement on our present condition." - John Stuart Mill I think when you're talking about "downsizing the current economic system" you don't actually grasp how big that system actually is. None of us do. Not even the top tier economics. It's too big to comprehend, just like imagining 7 billion people in one place, it just can't be pathomed. I agree stuff has to be reformed aswell but globalization and clogging up this already complex system with more and more rules and administration just makes this infinitely more complex to deal with. I think we're in some kind of slippery slope where the entire system is going to crash down within maximally a generation or two (wether it be from some politcal, economical or environmental cue) and we will have to hard reset everything. Maybe this is an idealistic viewpoint but I certainly hope some kind of negative spiral gets so out of control that some parties will finally have to realize their certain bullshit just can't be happening any longer (data mining for marketing purposes for example)
I agree, there is absolutely no way to change the system other than a complete crash.
+ Show Spoiler +
So here is what I think is going to happen:
- Most of the "service sector" that constitutes 3/4 of today's economy is going to be automatized away.
- As a result, people have to come up with even more useless jobs to fill the void. The economy needs to grow and people need to get paid after all.
- This "bubble of bullshit" will grow to proportions unbeknownst to man.
- There will be a point reached, when there simply is no demand for even more bullshit jobs
- Companies will have to shut down, people get unemployed, economy collapses.
- Rinse and Repeat!
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On June 29 2014 20:58 cmdspinner1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2014 20:56 nimbim wrote:On June 29 2014 20:38 cmdspinner1 wrote:On June 29 2014 20:34 nimbim wrote:On June 29 2014 20:16 tadL wrote:The only interesting question is: When will the majority say its enough and do what happened so many times in history. Chop heads off people that abuse a system that should bring wealth to all in their favour. I kind of hope to see it in my life time. But it will happen. It happend so many times. Manipulation / terror / frightening people does not work for ever. never did. The real sad part. after such a system reset the cycle starts again humanity to stupid to learn. There are too many complacent and/or stupid people. Calling for others to chop heads off would also only get you into prison, unfortunately. There is also the problem that the benefactors of the current system control most of the media, so you can't even reach people without your message getting distorted or ridiculed. In Germany our whole education system is designed so that at least 60% of all kids don't get a good education (i.e learning to think for themselves), This ensures we will always have a stupid workforce, who will do what they are told. From what I know, the education systems almost everywhere have ways to ensure a decent amount of stupid people. I wish there were a way to start a global revolution, but I don't think there is. What al load of elitist bullshit. I guess you are a highschool graduate who thinks hw knows everything now. My point is, even in highschool you are unlikely to learn anything about making political decisions. Individual thoughts are discouraged, while following orders is indoctrinated. For example, memorize these facts and write them down later, you will be graded for how much time you spent memorizing - that's school and it doesn't teach you anything about your decisions in life, except you should really obey that order unless you want a worse job than the next guy. That wasnt the case in my school (combined real/gymnasium). I feel most German schools are full of idealistic, ultra tollerant academic women, who have nothing to do with the real world.
Education as an instrument of bureaucratic status-seeking is completely repugnant to the traditional German ideal of Bildung anyway. Let those who wish to pursue a career do so through the Realschule. The test of true dedication to self-cultivation can only be pure if there is no promise of remuneration at the end of the rainbow.
If you went to school in Germany, you also know how children, who are mostly influenced by their family background or onset of puberty at the time, are sorted into 3 categories. In a Hauptschule a great part of the teachers has already given up, so even if you had a bad start and want to get somewhere, you get additional bricks thrown in your path. I've never heard from somebody who went to a Hauptschule and thought the lessons were great. The whole environment is designed to be bad.
Berlin has abolished the Hauptschule in favour of the Gesamtschule, yet a Gesamtschule, which promises social mobility in theory, is a Hauptschule in all but name. In average performance, students at a Gesamtschule are marginally better than those at a Hauptschule, and inferior to those in a Realschule. The inflation of admissions into Gymnasien, of Abitur-graduates, and of people filtering into the Universities are having as great an effect on the degradation of education as any other factor. The level of knowledge of some of the students who study Lehramt today is often shockingly low. For most graduates, teaching is a career, not a vocation.
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To me it's pretty obvious that an universal basic income system that takes care of your food, health, housing & utility bills plus a little extra is the next step in human evolution. Economists have already calculated that such a system is feasible as it can replace major segments of the entirely obsolete and highly corruptible (this cannot be overstated) public administration sector.
You can easily incorporate unconditional income into a relatively liberal capitalist model to provide for the prestige incentives desired by the upper classes, and preserve the general rapid development driven by the good sides of capitalist competition.
A very small minority of people will choose to do absolutely nothing productive, but you should understand these are people who already do nothing productive now, or are petty criminals, or self destructive addicts.
Most people will simply do whatever they truly enjoy - since no functioning adult appreciates being bored or "empty". These activities can range from making art to coding shareware to exploring science for the greater good to hanging out with little children or the elderly, care for animals, or keep doing whatever economic activity it is that they do so they can purchase extra perks like bionic limbs, hair transplants, trips to Mars and ferraris if they need to satisfy their ego ^_^
On the other hand, not only are poor people no longer forced to choose between starvation and radically underpaid jobs / crime (making the job market actually work the way it's supposed to in the minds of libertarians), the added benefit of people working only because they want to creates workers who are drastically better at whatever they do.
This way, everyone wins. I'm especially tired of getting a shit service because the guy doing it clearly hates his job.
Make corporations respect the same laws individuals, and we're on our way to utopia and space colonization 
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On June 29 2014 22:31 urboss wrote:I agree, there is absolutely no way to change the system other than a complete crash. So here is what I think is going to happen: - Most of the "service sector" that constitutes 3/4 of today's economy is going to be automatized away.
- As a result, people have to come up with even more useless jobs to fill the void. The economy needs to grow and people need to get paid after all.
- This "bubble of bullshit" will grow to proportions unbeknownst to man.
- There will be a point reached, when there simply is no demand for even more bullshit jobs
- Companies will have to shut down, people get unemployed, economy collapses.
- Rinse and Repeat!
in my opinion as long as there is interest on debt, there is no changing anything.
first you have to get rid of the 30 trillion debt, europe and america has, then we can think about changing goals and what is profit for companys.
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The basic question here is "does everyone need to work/have a job in modern society?"
In terms of producing what is needed to survive, the answer is no. If we limit the discussion to developed countries, automated machines can handle most of the productive jobs. From a macro perspective, most people don't need to work. But from an individual perspective, no job = no income, so unless you are super rich, you need to work to earn a living. If there aren't enough meaningful and productive jobs, then society needs to create some in order to get these people employed. This is what led to the creation of so many "bullshit jobs."
If you're thinking about eliminating bullshit jobs, then you need to solve the question of how everyone can afford to live if not everyone works. This begins with a discussion about whether everyone should have the right to a universal basic living allowance. That would provide the financial freedom for people to do what they like, and remove the need for pointless and meaningless jobs. If people wanted to make more than the basic allowance, then they could choose to work.
If you think about it, a large percent of the unemployable population is already effectively living off the state, if you include those on some form of welfare (sickness benefits etc) or in prison. It wouldn't be a huge jump to extend this to people who could work but don't particularly want to and are willing to accept a low standard of living. The problem is that regardless of the merits of the argument, you end up with a huge debate about tax, government handouts and freeloading.
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On June 30 2014 00:03 Kickboxer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +To me it's pretty obvious that an universal basic income system that takes care of your food, health, housing & utility bills plus a little extra is the next step in human evolution. Economists have already calculated that such a system is feasible as it can replace major segments of the entirely obsolete and highly corruptible (this cannot be overstated) public administration sector. You can easily incorporate unconditional income into a relatively liberal capitalist model to provide for the prestige incentives desired by the upper classes, and preserve the general rapid development driven by the good sides of capitalist competition. A very small minority of people will choose to do absolutely nothing productive, but you should understand these are people who already do nothing productive now, or are petty criminals, or self destructive addicts. Most people will simply do whatever they truly enjoy - since no functioning adult appreciates being bored or "empty". These activities can range from making art to coding shareware to exploring science for the greater good to hanging out with little children or the elderly, care for animals, or keep doing whatever economic activity it is that they do so they can purchase extra perks like bionic limbs, hair transplants, trips to Mars and ferraris if they need to satisfy their ego ^_^ On the other hand, not only are poor people no longer forced to choose between starvation and radically underpaid jobs / crime (making the job market actually work the way it's supposed to in the minds of libertarians), the added benefit of people working only because they want to creates workers who are drastically better at whatever they do. This way, everyone wins. I'm especially tired of getting a shit service because the guy doing it clearly hates his job. Make corporations respect the same laws individuals, and we're on our way to utopia and space colonization
And then when you're on the verge of your viewpoints being carried out, they get lobbied to death by the evil corporations. And yes, I am using this old cliche of them being evil, but this fact is one of the clearest things there is at the moment. The monopolies holding all the cash have the recourses to push their agenda and their agendas only. Anything outside of the box or which smells a little too much like reform will just get pushed into the ground where it belongs (according to them) because it would put a halt to their expansionist behaviour.
One of the biggest paradoxal things I just don't seem to grasp about economy (but that's just because I'm not an economist I guess) is the thought that things absolutely have to keep growing. Which raises a few questions for me, with some of them being:
-Where do all the resources come from?
-Where does all the money come from?
-How big is big enough?
-Where does all the money go to?
-Why do they keep enlarging the gap between the wealthy and the lesser- to none-wealthy? Don't/shouldn't they already know it's unethical and immoral?
And to close out, some conspiracy thoughts:
+ Show Spoiler +Ofcourse I do know all these huge ass companies have a big team of analists "able" to predict and calculate most of the immediate and less immediate future goals of said companies, but sometimes I think it's all just blown smoke. Like, for instance, with the bank crises started in 2009 (or was it a bit before that?) with all these rating bureaus shrooming out of the ground stamping their labels on certain countries of how financially stable they were. Well, I'm positive that some of these bureaus just rated for the sake of manipulating certain aspects of the economy at that time.
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The author of the article really seems to have unique views about these so-called "bullshit jobs".
According to his views, most service sector related jobs are "bullshit jobs".
Hard to agree with.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0sJGUGV.png)
