UK Politics Mega-thread - Page 639

On June 11 2025 22:43 Razyda wrote:
Seems like NI also have a riot problems:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jun/11/second-night-rioting-ballymena-police-officers-injured-northern-ireland

I really start think that best thing to do for western countries would be to offshore their protest to places like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, or such. I am confident that behaviour of protesters would improve dramatically.

On June 11 2025 23:38 Simberto wrote:


Yeah, but you seem to be very much in favor of oppressive regimes who are "good" at handling protest.

On June 12 2025 17:25 Hat Trick of Today wrote:
?

The far right in Northern Ireland are trying to instigate a response. This is not the same as the majority of people protesting ICE because ICE are generally acting like a bunch of shitlords with zero accountability. The difference here is that I don’t think the government in Northern Ireland want shit to go down so I don’t think it’ll go anywhere substantial.

In the same way as the far right in Northern Ireland, this US administration is purposely boosting tensions by ramping up bullshit ICE raids, intentionally shooting journalists and sending in a pretty unprepared military for the optics. They want shit to go down so they can make a show of force, the chaos is intentional because they’re desperately looking for a reason. It’s dead obvious for anyone who isn’t in the US that the police isn’t even attempting to de-escalate the situation.

These guys aren’t brainiacs, they’re basically one step away from telling everyone they want to run over the “left” with tanks (and many on Twitter are already saying it). If the military did run over protestors with tanks, they’d be more than a couple of people on Teamliquid arguing that said protestors had it coming.

If ICE wanted to help crack down on illegal immigration, they’d have an amazing day cracking down on illegal undocumented Irish immigrants amongst other not-Latino ethnic groups who purposely overstay their Visas. It’d be like shooting fish in a barrel. But they’re intentionally running around purposely making a show of it to a point that people in the administration have unironically floated making ICE raids into a reality TV programme. It’s not really about combatting illegal immigration, it’s about making as much noise as possible.

The suggestion that the “West” should just send protesters to authoritarian regimes for behaviour correction is weird because all of this is intentional.

On June 12 2025 20:54 Razyda wrote:


It is not that, I just believe that once you cross certain threshold in violence you accepting any and each response you get. Also "offshoring protests" comment is somewhat obvious sarcasm.



Bolded - the thing with it is that if you get attacked and have your livelihood destroyed, it doesnt matter whether people who did it were shouting "stop ICE", or "kick out immigrants". See protests themselves are fine, the issue start when protesters start acting violent towards others.

On June 12 2025 21:52 WombaT wrote:
The problem with your threshold is it’s from fantasy land. It’s effectively zero. Which isn’t how shit gets done. I certainly don’t [i]want[/i/] riots either. But some don’t begin that way, they spark due to law enforcement cracking down on peaceful protests too.

It kind of does matter why you get attacked. Or if you’re even attacked at all. Maybe not to an individual, but in the wider sense it does.

As with the Southport riots, these ones we’re seeing in Northern Ireland are explicitly anti-foreign/foreign origin. And completely unrelated people are being targeted. People are terrified, people are sticking up ‘I’m from x country that isn’t Romania’ flags on their residences. Understandable but I think deluded. The knuckle draggers aren’t going to draw a distinction between Bulgaria and Romania.

Now, is that the case with these LA riots, really? Inconvenient yes, illegitimate? Sure some can claim that too. But it is basically left wing protestors versus law enforcement at this juncture.

On June 12 2025 21:58 Jockmcplop wrote:


I don't think its understandable to actually try and kill people because you're frustrated politically though. I get why the protests, but attempted murder is over the line for me.

The thing is, these protests and riots are a prime candidate for concern trolling on all sides of the aisle.

I don't for one second think anyone who is pretending to be outraged about a random stranger's car being on fire is actually outraged about it. They just want to score political points and make immigrants out to be the worst of the worst of humanity.

On June 12 2025 21:46 Jockmcplop wrote:


I think its worth asking how far a protest can go exactly before its gone too far and is definitely over the line.

Is setting fire to cars where people are drawing the line? Because to be honest, setting fire to a car is property damage, which in comparison to having a guy bust in your door and send you to an El Salvadorian torture camp because he saw a tattoo of an M on your arm and M is for Mexico really isn't that bad.

Am I expected to virtue signal and pretend that I'm outraged when I see cars on fire?

Businesses is obviously a step further. Not a fan of random businesses being burned down. If its targeted that's a little more comparable.

Of course, the Ireland protests are much worse than burning cars or property. They are trying to burn places down that currently home refugees, asylum seekers and illegal immigrants, which is attempted mass murder.

On June 12 2025 21:46 Jockmcplop wrote:


I think its worth asking how far a protest can go exactly before its gone too far and is definitely over the line.

Is setting fire to cars where people are drawing the line? Because to be honest, setting fire to a car is property damage, which in comparison to having a guy bust in your door and send you to an El Salvadorian torture camp because he saw a tattoo of an M on your arm and M is for Mexico really isn't that bad.

Am I expected to virtue signal and pretend that I'm outraged when I see cars on fire?

Businesses is obviously a step further. Not a fan of random businesses being burned down. If its targeted that's a little more comparable.

Of course, the Ireland protests are much worse than burning cars or property. They are trying to burn places down that currently home refugees, asylum seekers and illegal immigrants, which is attempted mass murder.

On June 12 2025 21:52 WombaT wrote:
The problem with your threshold is it’s from fantasy land. It’s effectively zero. Which isn’t how shit gets done. I certainly don’t [i]want[/i/] riots either. But some don’t begin that way, they spark due to law enforcement cracking down on peaceful protests too.

It kind of does matter why you get attacked. Or if you’re even attacked at all. Maybe not to an individual, but in the wider sense it does.

As with the Southport riots, these ones we’re seeing in Northern Ireland are explicitly anti-foreign/foreign origin. And completely unrelated people are being targeted. People are terrified, people are sticking up ‘I’m from x country that isn’t Romania’ flags on their residences. Understandable but I think deluded. The knuckle draggers aren’t going to draw a distinction between Bulgaria and Romania.

Now, is that the case with these LA riots, really? Inconvenient yes, illegitimate? Sure some can claim that too. But it is basically left wing protestors versus law enforcement at this juncture.

On June 12 2025 23:25 Razyda wrote:


I think this is fair point to decide that protest went to far. Similarly as looting shops, breaking and entering homes or assaulting people.

"Is setting fire to cars where people are drawing the line? Because to be honest, setting fire to a car is property damage, which in comparison to having a guy bust in your door and send you to an El Salvadorian torture camp because he saw a tattoo of an M on your arm and M is for Mexico really isn't that bad."

This 2 are separated issues though. The fact that someone send someone to torture camp doesnt justify burning a John Smith car, or destroying Jack Black business.

I wouldnt say virtue signaling or outraged (although I guess you would be mildly annoyed if it happened to be your car). I think it is not exactly controversial opinion, that being part of the mob doesnt mean you are free to destroy others property.



"The problem with your threshold is it’s from fantasy land. It’s effectively zero. Which isn’t how shit gets done. I certainly don’t [i]want[/i/] riots either. But some don’t begin that way, they spark due to law enforcement cracking down on peaceful protests too. "

I disagree, would say that burning cars, looted stores and assaults are decent indicators. Yes some do begin due to law enforcement cracking down on peaceful protest, (although I would say in UK, most of EU an US it is rather rare), but I would say more start just because bunch of idiots feels untouchable when they are part of large group of people.

"It kind of does matter why you get attacked. Or if you’re even attacked at all. Maybe not to an individual, but in the wider sense it does. "

I am talking about situation where you get attacked because you happen to live on the street where riots happen.

"As with the Southport riots, these ones we’re seeing in Northern Ireland are explicitly anti-foreign/foreign origin. And completely unrelated people are being targeted. People are terrified, people are sticking up ‘I’m from x country that isn’t Romania’ flags on their residences. Understandable but I think deluded. The knuckle draggers aren’t going to draw a distinction between Bulgaria and Romania.

Now, is that the case with these LA riots, really? Inconvenient yes, illegitimate? Sure some can claim that too. But it is basically left wing protestors versus law enforcement at this juncture."

I think this is where we disagree. I dont think rioters and protesters are the same group of people. I am somewhat confident that the same people rioting now to "Stop the ICE" would be rioting if in 1 month time there happen to be protest to "Help the ICE".

On June 12 2025 23:36 WombaT wrote:

Where are you getting that confidence from?

On June 12 2025 20:54 Razyda wrote:


It is not that, I just believe that once you cross certain threshold in violence you accepting any and each response you get. Also "offshoring protests" comment is somewhat obvious sarcasm.



Bolded - the thing with it is that if you get attacked and have your livelihood destroyed, it doesnt matter whether people who did it were shouting "stop ICE", or "kick out immigrants". See protests themselves are fine, the issue start when protesters start acting violent towards others.

On June 15 2025 10:32 Hat Trick of Today wrote:


It absolutely does matter if the goal is to find a way to de-escalate the issue and ensure more violence doesn’t continue or get worse.

The ICE protests can absolutely be neutered if ICE operations weren’t operating on the theory that all media is good media, the idea that specific arrest quotas have to be met, and conducting clearly indiscriminate mass arrests and harassment. You get rid of that and ensure ICE have actual accountability, then you don’t have anti ICE protests erupting all over the country.

The difference here is that the Northern Irish government actually want to deescalate the issue so there will unlikely be a whole load of support for the Northern Irish nationalists going around trying to start shit.

On the other hand, the Trump administration and their cheerleaders are basically screaming from the roof tops that they want to escalate the situation. This ranges from “I don’t give a fuck about courts” to “I’m sending in the actual honest to god military” to “conservative states are telling me I can stand my ground and run over protestors if I say the magic words that I was scared for my life”.

If you haven’t noticed, these protests are getting larger not smaller and starting to protest more than just heavy handed anti-illegal immigration policies. And it’s not going to get any better.

Again, there’s not much sympathy for the Trump Administration in like Australia where it’s clear that the police are being shitlords directly shooting people with rubber bullets to do maximum harm and spread fear rather than to disperse crowds.

We can wring hands over individuals suffering property damage but ultimately all of these protests are a response to failures in governance. These protests don’t exist, get as heated, or have the longevity they seem to be having if the US isn’t basically a failing country beyond individual wealth. People don’t trust anything in the country, including their own communities. You think collateral damage and ever increasing unrest doesn’t occur when an administration runs solely on “fuck everyone that isn’t us”?

On June 15 2025 10:32 Hat Trick of Today wrote:


It absolutely does matter if the goal is to find a way to de-escalate the issue and ensure more violence doesn’t continue or get worse.

The ICE protests can absolutely be neutered if ICE operations weren’t operating on the theory that all media is good media, the idea that specific arrest quotas have to be met, and conducting clearly indiscriminate mass arrests and harassment. You get rid of that and ensure ICE have actual accountability, then you don’t have anti ICE protests erupting all over the country.

The difference here is that the Northern Irish government actually want to deescalate the issue so there will unlikely be a whole load of support for the Northern Irish nationalists going around trying to start shit.

On the other hand, the Trump administration and their cheerleaders are basically screaming from the roof tops that they want to escalate the situation. This ranges from “I don’t give a fuck about courts” to “I’m sending in the actual honest to god military” to “conservative states are telling me I can stand my ground and run over protestors if I say the magic words that I was scared for my life”.

If you haven’t noticed, these protests are getting larger not smaller and starting to protest more than just heavy handed anti-illegal immigration policies. And it’s not going to get any better.

Again, there’s not much sympathy for the Trump Administration in like Australia where it’s clear that the police are being shitlords directly shooting people with rubber bullets to do maximum harm and spread fear rather than to disperse crowds.

We can wring hands over individuals suffering property damage but ultimately all of these protests are a response to failures in governance. These protests don’t exist, get as heated, or have the longevity they seem to be having if the US isn’t basically a failing country beyond individual wealth. People don’t trust anything in the country, including their own communities. You think collateral damage and ever increasing unrest doesn’t occur when an administration runs solely on “fuck everyone that isn’t us”?

On June 17 2025 10:17 WombaT wrote:
The Northern Irish authorities sent the police. Who are very good riot police, amongst the best in the world, and who frequently train other law enforcement agencies.

They didn’t send in the army.

Is intimidating and attacking (legal) immigrants remotely equivalent to protests over ICE’s methods?

On June 17 2025 11:52 Razyda wrote:


Yes they did. Thats why I have issue with a claim that side you disagree with should give in, but side you agree with should send police. As for sending an army in it seem like they didnt have to so far.

"Is intimidating and attacking (legal) immigrants remotely equivalent to protests over ICE’s methods?"

See this is interesting question and it kinda shows political split. Is burning shit of one person, so very different from burning shit of another (by that I mean in unrelated countries and neutral people)? I also think you missed significance of the phrase "attached themselves" I used. Because once you separate protestors from rioters, they are very much equivalent.

On June 18 2025 19:20 WombaT wrote:

Where are you getting that idea from? I’m not saying authorities should simply give in if it’s an issue I agree with at all. I’m saying police disturbances, contain them. Something Northern Irish police are really fucking good at, why our lads and lasses train other forces in this specific area around the world.

Don’t escalate the rhetoric, don’t escalate in practice, unless you have the stones, the ability and the buy-in to crush a riot. Which is rarely the case. If you escalate but lack those things, riots quite frequently just get worse.

My criticism of Trump and his various lackeys re LA aren’t really couched in purely moral terms for me, something I disagree with solely on that axis. They don’t work practically either.

Escalation is throwing petrol on the fire. You can escalate, but you need to have a sufficiently powerful water cannon to deal with the increasing size of the fire. If you escalate and either don’t have a powerful enough water cannon, or are unwilling to use it, the net result is just having a tougher fire to deal with.

Yes, depending how and why it is burned.

If it park my car somewhere, go to work and a riot breaks out and my car is torched, yeah that sucks. But is it the same as if a group of riots are walking around and torching businesses and homes of folks they believe to be foreigners?

I’d argue not really, one is incidental, one is deliberate targeting and active intimidation.

On June 19 2025 10:00 Razyda wrote:


"Where are you getting that idea from? I’m not saying authorities should simply give in if it’s an issue I agree with at all. I’m saying police disturbances, contain them. Something Northern Irish police are really fucking good at, why our lads and lasses train other forces in this specific area around the world. " - Seems LA police didnt attend?

"Don’t escalate the rhetoric, don’t escalate in practice, unless you have the stones, the ability and the buy-in to crush a riot. Which is rarely the case. If you escalate but lack those things, riots quite frequently just get worse. " - See the issue is Trump had the ability and used it. [b(Personally I think Newsom was making political play. He clearly either didnt have the ability, or will, to stop the riots, so decided to provoke Trump into sending NG/marines and then complain. As I said personally , so feel free to disagree with me on this, dont have anything but gut feeling to support that)

"My criticism of Trump and his various lackeys re LA aren’t really couched in purely moral terms for me, something I disagree with solely on that axis. They don’t work practically either. " Dont they? how many bricks was thrown at marines?

"Escalation is throwing petrol on the fire. You can escalate, but you need to have a sufficiently powerful water cannon to deal with the increasing size of the fire. If you escalate and either don’t have a powerful enough water cannon, or are unwilling to use it, the net result is just having a tougher fire to deal with." isnt it exactly whats happening? Riots seem to be dying down?

"Yes, depending how and why it is burned.

If it park my car somewhere, go to work and a riot breaks out and my car is torched, yeah that sucks. But is it the same as if a group of riots are walking around and torching businesses and homes of folks they believe to be foreigners?

I’d argue not really, one is incidental, one is deliberate targeting and active intimidation."

And what exactly is the difference it makes to you? Your car still got burned, or, god forbid, your kid got killed (because once you let riots escalate that's what happens). Would you go "Oh it was just random, not targeted so its fine". I know I wouldn't. I would spend every single day of the rest my life making f...s pay.

Edit: some coma missing.