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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
On August 30 2013 11:58 jeremycafe wrote: Seems like every week he is releasing yet more information. This guy needs to be hunted down... Right. Shoot the messenger - not the parties responsible for creating the embarrassment he's exposing. | ||
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Nacl(Draq)
United States302 Posts
Or since he wrote a letter to Putin that could be labeled as treason for talking with someone outside of the US government. The umbrella those two crimes fall under are huge. We can now kill US citizen terrorists without a trial so who cares if he is guilty or not. I say we just sit back and let if affect the US society as much as we all know it will. | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1366 Posts
On August 30 2013 11:58 jeremycafe wrote: Seems like every week he is releasing yet more information. This guy needs to be hunted down... Not sure how anyone can still think someone who got a job in his field for the sole purpose of leaking info wasn't trying to commit treason. Russia got us good on this one. its not about russia or any other country, its about the us do you guys not respect your ancestors at all? they risked their lives for the freedoms youre giving away without much trouble as it seems | ||
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Nacl(Draq)
United States302 Posts
On August 30 2013 13:24 imperator-xy wrote: its not about russia or any other country, its about the us do you guys not respect your ancestors at all? they risked their lives for the freedoms youre giving away without much trouble as it seems I think the occupy movement is still on-going just not getting any air time. Nothing is happening because people don't want to riot, they want peaceful protest and those kinds of actions take years and years before they accomplish things. We can't just overthrow one of the most powerful military governments with force, too many deaths. Anyone who does try will get labeled a terrorist. Do not try to start an angry mob, the death toll will be abhorrent and peaceful protest while slow lasts longer. I advocate peaceful protest over any other method. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 30 2013 13:19 Nacl(Draq) wrote: He's guilty of treason/terrorism, which are both crimes that have non-specific labels meaning he is guilty of doing something the government doesn't like. So anyone the government says is guilty of those crimes, they are guilty of those crimes because the crime could be chewing gum on a bus that has people afraid of gum chewing. That would bring fear aka terror. Or since he wrote a letter to Putin that could be labeled as treason for talking with someone outside of the US government. The umbrella those two crimes fall under are huge. We can now kill US citizen terrorists without a trial so who cares if he is guilty or not. I say we just sit back and let if affect the US society as much as we all know it will. Guilty of terrorism has many grades of punishment. Treason only has one punishment--the death penalty. It depends on how his actions are argued. If he is seen as a citizen of the united states deciding, on his own, to give secret information to enemy states, then he is trialed for treason. If he is seen as an agent of an enemy body performing acts to destabilize or harm the United states, then he will be trialed for terrorism. The Government doesn't just throw accusations wily nily--it's based off of precedent. He is currently being chased after for being a government employee running off in hiding in a foreign nation, and accused of trading secrets for his asylum. That makes it treason, not terrorism. If he was just branded a terrorist, they would just send in secret forces and kill him. He isn't branded a terrorist, so he has to be discussed more publicly. Treason is the death penalty, but only after a trial of his peers. Him being a citizen and not a soldier means that he has to be trialed by public courts and not martial courts. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 30 2013 13:32 Nacl(Draq) wrote: I think the occupy movement is still on-going just not getting any air time. Nothing is happening because people don't want to riot, they want peaceful protest and those kinds of actions take years and years before they accomplish things. We can't just overthrow one of the most powerful military governments with force, too many deaths. Anyone who does try will get labeled a terrorist. Do not try to start an angry mob, the death toll will be abhorrent and peaceful protest while slow lasts longer. I advocate peaceful protest over any other method. The occupy movement attempted to do what the civil rights movement did--cause a ruckus through sit ins and protests. MLK, Malcolm X, alabama walks, the bus tours, all of those things that happened during the civil rights movement was violent and bloody, and led to deaths and riots. The occupy movement attempted to bring that back to the fold--but as Malvina Reynolds said, "it isn't nice to go to jail." As much as people *think* that they don't like America as it is, they actually feel okay enough about the America to just ignore the movements happening right now. In CA alone occupy movements are everywhere protecting schools, libraries, and parks. It has students, youth, etc... all part of it. It is alive and well, but ever since police started hitting protesters Americans stopped wanting to fix its problems. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 30 2013 13:24 imperator-xy wrote: do you guys not respect your ancestors at all? they risked their lives for the freedoms youre giving away without much trouble as it seems I find it slightly odd that more often than not, it is a non-American that uses this line in this thread. The answer to an intelligence organization overstepping reasonable bounds is not to revolt. The NSA was already being investigated for potential overreach even before Snowden came into the picture - he just made the case more public. For good measure: Manning's trial was what it was because he was a soldier. He voluntarily agreed to give up many civil liberties when he joined the military. Snowden would get a normal trial. | ||
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LeeDawg
United States1306 Posts
On August 30 2013 13:24 imperator-xy wrote: its not about russia or any other country, its about the us do you guys not respect your ancestors at all? they risked their lives for the freedoms youre giving away without much trouble as it seems sadly, that's the mindset in america these days. in the 1700's a patriot was someone who fought for justice. in 2013, a patriot is a sheep of the government and media | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On August 30 2013 16:10 LeeDawg wrote: sadly, that's the mindset in america these days. in the 1700's a patriot was someone who fought for justice. in 2013, a patriot is a sheep of the government and media I love the founding idea of my country, but this sentiment is all too true. I absolutely hate what the US has become. It's disgusting. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21634 Posts
On August 30 2013 15:10 LegalLord wrote: I find it slightly odd that more often than not, it is a non-American that uses this line in this thread. The answer to an intelligence organization overstepping reasonable bounds is not to revolt. The NSA was already being investigated for potential overreach even before Snowden came into the picture - he just made the case more public. For good measure: Manning's trial was what it was because he was a soldier. He voluntarily agreed to give up many civil liberties when he joined the military. Snowden would get a normal trial. It comes from non-Americans because we think we have a clearer picture of what is going with your liberty's because of extremely biased news coverage inside America. Now you can argue whether or not that is true but that is the reason. As for Snowden compared to Manning. I wish i shared your belief in the justice system. The mere fact he was held for 3 years before trial doesn't bode well for anyone following in his footsteps. Its easy to have faith in a fair trial when its not your life on the line. | ||
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jeremycafe
United States354 Posts
On August 30 2013 13:24 imperator-xy wrote: its not about russia or any other country, its about the us do you guys not respect your ancestors at all? they risked their lives for the freedoms youre giving away without much trouble as it seems How is it not? He reportedly got the job he did for the sole purpose of being able to gain information to leak. He is not just sharing information about our freedoms, he is leaking everything he knows one week at a time. How is our satellite program and cell phone intercepting of Osama Bin Ladan overseas have anything to do with America's rights? It doesn't. How about disclosing the fact he knows where a large number of safe houses are over seas? He wants to harm our country, not support our rights. It is oh so convenient after a man who intentional gained information for the purpose of leaking it goes to china, and now russia. You really think he has America's interest in his concern? give me a break. He is going to live a prosperous life in russia. | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1366 Posts
On August 30 2013 22:48 jeremycafe wrote: How is it not? He reportedly got the job he did for the sole purpose of being able to gain information to leak. He is not just sharing information about our freedoms, he is leaking everything he knows one week at a time. How is our satellite program and cell phone intercepting of Osama Bin Ladan overseas have anything to do with America's rights? It doesn't. How about disclosing the fact he knows where a large number of safe houses are over seas? He wants to harm our country, not support our rights. It is oh so convenient after a man who intentional gained information for the purpose of leaking it goes to china, and now russia. You really think he has America's interest in his concern? give me a break. He is going to live a prosperous life in russia. if going to china and russia after leaking highly secret information is a reason that he just wants to harm the us to you, then i dont think you quite understand this right. if he stayed in the us while leaking those information, he would probably go to prison for decades, which is not what he wants as he is a human being. it could be even worse, they could torture him because he is a huge threat to national security as long as theres still leaked information out there that hasnt been released. | ||
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jeremycafe
United States354 Posts
On August 30 2013 23:01 imperator-xy wrote: if going to china and russia after leaking highly secret information is a reason that he just wants to harm the us to you, then i dont think you quite understand this right. if he stayed in the us while leaking those information, he would probably go to prison for decades, which is not what he wants as he is a human being. it could be even worse, they could torture him because he is a huge threat to national security as long as theres still leaked information out there that hasnt been released. No, leaking highly secret information that no longer has anything to do with what he original "I'm being a hero" claim of information he released in the first place is what paints a clear picture of his intentions. He is doing what Bradly Manning did, release all and everything he could get his hands on. The fact he went to China and Russia, two countries that are the biggest countries when it comes to spying on the United States shows he was probably willing to allow both countries to gain that information. He knew he would be safe with the expectation he continues leaking information. It is common sense. Of course someone who plans to commit treason isn't going to stay in the united states. Their airport debacle was all a show. He won't be leaving russia. | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
On August 30 2013 23:25 jeremycafe wrote: No, leaking highly secret information that no longer has anything to do with what he original "I'm being a hero" claim of information he released in the first place is what paints a clear picture of his intentions. He is doing what Bradly Manning did, release all and everything he could get his hands on. The fact he went to China and Russia, two countries that are the biggest countries when it comes to spying on the United States shows he was probably willing to allow both countries to gain that information. He knew he would be safe with the expectation he continues leaking information. It is common sense. Of course someone who plans to commit treason isn't going to stay in the united states. Their airport debacle was all a show. He won't be leaving russia. You are speculating. What makes you think the Russians don't have the information anyway? Unlike the general population, the Russian secret services are probably very well informed about the NSA's spy programme. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 30 2013 23:36 Maenander wrote: You are speculating. What makes you think the Russians don't have the information anyway? Unlike the general population, the Russian secret services are probably very well informed about the NSA's spy programme. Russia having the information does not mean Snowden isn't trying to sell the information. Just as Snowden providing information to russia does not automatically mean he is trying to harm the US. | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On August 30 2013 23:25 jeremycafe wrote: No, leaking highly secret information that no longer has anything to do with what he original "I'm being a hero" claim of information he released in the first place is what paints a clear picture of his intentions. He is doing what Bradly Manning did, release all and everything he could get his hands on. The fact he went to China and Russia, two countries that are the biggest countries when it comes to spying on the United States shows he was probably willing to allow both countries to gain that information. He knew he would be safe with the expectation he continues leaking information. It is common sense. Of course someone who plans to commit treason isn't going to stay in the united states. Their airport debacle was all a show. He won't be leaving russia. As far as I have read, the continuous leaks are done by journalists at their own discretion. IIRC Mr. Greenwald mentioned that he got tens of thousands of pages to dig through from Snowden so I wouldn't say Snowden has much of the blame to take on the latest leaks. Journalists will be who you should blame for that, but then you are getting into another issue entirely. The fact that he went to China (Hong Kong which is technically a bit different) and Russia is likely more a result of knowing more about them, for obvious reasons and because they are geopolitically strong enough to withstand US pressure for extradition. No EU/common wealth country is capable of that or willing to do that! | ||
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
All Eu countries would give him to the US, all small countries cant do anything against the US killing him with drones or special units. | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
because they are geopolitically strong enough to withstand US pressure for extradition. No EU/common wealth country is capable of that or willing to do that! Noooo, that can't be! That would be a smart assumption and would totally not fit under the tinfoil hat. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On August 30 2013 23:25 jeremycafe wrote: No, leaking highly secret information that no longer has anything to do with what he original "I'm being a hero" claim of information he released in the first place is what paints a clear picture of his intentions. He is doing what Bradly Manning did, release all and everything he could get his hands on. The fact he went to China and Russia, two countries that are the biggest countries when it comes to spying on the United States shows he was probably willing to allow both countries to gain that information. He knew he would be safe with the expectation he continues leaking information. It is common sense. Of course someone who plans to commit treason isn't going to stay in the united states. Their airport debacle was all a show. He won't be leaving russia. If he really wanted to harm the US, he would have taken the information, sold it to China AND Russia, and then stayed hidden in some other country where noone knew who he was. He seems to have covered his tracks in terms of actually getting the information. If he wanted to harm the US by aiding its "enemies", then he could have done so without having the public involved at all. Surely the very fact he went public with the information should be a massive clue that he wasn't trying to aid "opponents" of the US. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Snowden made an enemy of the US when he went PUBLIC, so he went to the logical friends, other people who aren't totally buddy buddy with the US. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can understand why he went to the places he went. They are SAFE. Considering the monumental oversight and information failures with regard to the NSA that have come to light, can you honestly say that you believe he doesn't know more than you that his actions seem reasonable? Initially it may have seemed like it was not necessary to leak all this information publically, but as more and more information comes out, and the NSA gets found lying and wanting again and again, surely you must start to reconsider your position on the whole thing. Snowden was likely already aware of the failures with regard to "the system" which led to crap oversight and complete blindness at the highest levels of accountable and elected government, so he went over their head, to the media, the only real way to get anything out there and considered. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 30 2013 19:42 Gorsameth wrote: It comes from non-Americans because we think we have a clearer picture of what is going with your liberty's because of extremely biased news coverage inside America. Now you can argue whether or not that is true but that is the reason. As for Snowden compared to Manning. I wish i shared your belief in the justice system. The mere fact he was held for 3 years before trial doesn't bode well for anyone following in his footsteps. Its easy to have faith in a fair trial when its not your life on the line. The United States has been like this for over 200 years. Even the founding fathers knew that they would need a strong government with the power to fight its enemies. Most educated Americans take a class on US history and US government. I'm going to go on a limb here and suggest that maybe most foreigners don't, so they misinterpret US ideals quite recklessly. | ||
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