EPTsenseislibrary.com is an awesome sight- but does anyone have any links to the korean go tv- or any video stuff of go? thnx all!
Baduk School = Chinese GO
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kevisyum
Israel105 Posts
senseislibrary.com is an awesome sight- but does anyone have any links to the korean go tv- or any video stuff of go? thnx all! | ||
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lil.sis
China4650 Posts
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
Anyway I don't speak Japanese/Chinese/Korean so I am only interested in English/French material. I take pro game commentaries from audiogolessions.com and go4go.net (both in English) with reasonable fees. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
On July 11 2006 07:20 lil.sis wrote: go is really neat, i dabbled in it back in high school, like chess, but with more strategic options and less memorization required imo I'm don't agree about the less memorization part. Baduk/Igo requires just as much or more memorization. Take the opening play for instance, in chess you could do decently with fairly little experience if you have very good concentration and deep reading abilities, where as in Baduk, you'd lose the game to an experienced opponent in just a couple of stones in a similar situation. Experience, predefined plays, memorizing shapes and counter moves > game reading ability by far in Baduk. Still I agree it's a very fascinating game and I sometimes enjoy doing best play/ life or death puzzles, but I haven't played much against opponents. Edit: Yeah, I saw a game he broadcasted, but since I don't speak korean, it's kind of pointless since you won't understand their analysis and I'm not gonna kid myself and think that I can understand their plans just by watching the game.  | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On July 11 2006 08:26 Luhh wrote: Experience, predefined plays, memorizing shapes and counter moves > game reading ability by far in Baduk. I quite disagree. In most Korean go schools, children are mostly working on L&D problems and only start studying josekis and pro games when they are high dan players. Using this method, Korean is currently dominating the go scene. On the other hand Japan had never looked so weak, while his teaching is more focused on memorization and conventional wisdom. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
On July 11 2006 08:45 NpG)Explosive wrote: I quite disagree. In most Korean go schools, children are mostly working on L&D problems and only start studying josekis and pro games when they are high dan players. Using this method, Korean is currently dominating the go scene. On the other hand Japan had never looked so weak, while his teaching is more focused on memorization and conventional wisdom. The life and death problems are studied to -memorize- them so you'll instinctly and immediately be able to find them in a game, and know how to deal with them correctly or prevent them from happening or just not waste moves or save them as threats later on. The minor benefit is that you'll improve your reading ability but this is nearly all based on natural talent and your ability to focus and maintain concentration. Also Baduk is way more popular in Korea so the talent pool is bigger, and better competition breeds better competitors. I can agree that studying yoseki too early is bad, because then you haven't been given the opportunity to find out the strengths and benefits of them yourself or alternative methods plus it will hurt your creativity. Just take BW and replays as an example. | ||
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kevisyum
Israel105 Posts
but in go- you can start with the strats of- controll the corners first- seperate your opponents men + prevent him from getting 2 eyes keep your men together- at least give every set of your men 2 eyes and youll do quite well but- somehow GO becomes infinitley more strageticley complex than chess- where as many computer prograhmers can make a good chess AI(as all it does is compute a massive number of future combinations- if its in house records can give no hints)- no GO AI has yet surfaced there are basic patterns you need to memorize when you begin- because you wont understand yet what it means- like the ladder or the net- but as you get better- they make sense- it seems obvious how these positions are unescapable by being overpowered. as far as the kids learning life or death problems- Memorising positions is pretty futile- because it is said there are more game variations than atoms in the universe- And if you took one problem and got the awnser - then just 1! stone is added- the meaning of the entire board can change. So past positions you have studied provide little assistence to duture problems. which is why Japan must eb having a hard time. Because if they did learn my memorization then they would make moves based on the pattern that resembles thier game the closest- many times failing to take into account the extra stone or two- o and her's a fun facts site fo it >_< http://senseis.xmp.net/?FunGoFacts O_O | ||
Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On July 11 2006 08:53 Luhh wrote: The life and death problems are studied to -memorize- them so you'll instinctly and immediately be able to find them in a game, and know how to deal with them correctly or prevent them from happening or just not waste moves or save them as threats later on. The minor benefit is that you'll improve your reading ability but this is nearly all based on natural talent and your ability to focus and maintain concentration. This is wrong IMO. The biggest evidence is that if life and death problems were only about memorizing them, in books the solution would be printed directly on the problem because looking for the solution yourself is useless. I don't mean to be mean, but what is your level? | ||
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WhatisProtoss
Korea (South)2325 Posts
Do you guys actually play? Sounds like just made up theory. -_- Me and my buddies bet for money sometimes (or with Chinese chess). It's very fun and helps waste lots of time. | ||
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On July 11 2006 10:17 WhatisProtoss wrote: Do you guys actually play? Yes I do, I play in a club in my town and I entered a few tournaments. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 11 2006 08:26 Luhh wrote: I'm don't agree about the less memorization part. Baduk/Igo requires just as much or more memorization. Take the opening play for instance, in chess you could do decently with fairly little experience if you have very good concentration and deep reading abilities, where as in Baduk, you'd lose the game to an experienced opponent in just a couple of stones in a similar situation. Experience, predefined plays, memorizing shapes and counter moves > game reading ability by far in Baduk. Still I agree it's a very fascinating game and I sometimes enjoy doing best play/ life or death puzzles, but I haven't played much against opponents. Edit: Yeah, I saw a game he broadcasted, but since I don't speak korean, it's kind of pointless since you won't understand their analysis and I'm not gonna kid myself and think that I can understand their plans just by watching the game. Mm, then why is it that no one has been able to make a good GO ai? | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
GO is actually being considered as the "next hurdle" for sure algorithms. It would be interesting if they can acutally do such a thing for "Shogi", a chess-like game where you can reuse the pieces you have captured and place them anywhere on the board. (which would expand the possible moves list by at least 30-200 fold every iteration. ) | ||
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gameguard
Korea (South)2131 Posts
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Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
i've never played go i wanna play.. do you have link for an online game or something? or documentation to learn? sounds fun  i played alot of chess in the past | ||
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On July 11 2006 11:28 Pika Chu wrote: :o i've never played go i wanna play.. do you have link for an online game or something? or documentation to learn? sounds fun i played alot of chess in the past http://senseis.xmp.net is wiki site about go so it has lots of information. You can play for free at kgs.kiseido.com . It's also the best place to find beginners. Unfortunately I don't know any good site to learn the rules in English (the site of the French federation does it very well, but it's in French and I doubt you speak French), maybe someone else can help you. | ||
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Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On July 11 2006 11:37 Pika Chu wrote: ne t'inquiete pas, je me debruille en francaise Then you can learn the rules at http://jeudego.org/intro/gointro.htm This part of the site is looking older and older but it's effective. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 11 2006 11:28 Pika Chu wrote: :o i've never played go i wanna play.. do you have link for an online game or something? or documentation to learn? sounds fun i played alot of chess in the past http://www.playgo.to/interactive/index.html | ||
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lil.sis
China4650 Posts
you can also play on yahoo i think | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Well, if he wants to PLAY, there's, to my knowledge, two really big go servers - however I've felt much too intimidated/lazy to play there yet :D. What I linked was simply a great way to learn the rules (imo, it just seemed so fun and easy while learning :O). There's a list here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoServers | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
On July 11 2006 11:21 gameguard wrote: anyone know where i can get video of matches Watch Hikaru no Go - a very good anime They play a lot of different matches, and the moves are explained as they go, altho not too deeply of course. Also, at the end of each episode, there're little introductory lessons about some simpler forms/moves of the game.Watching that anime alone makes you wanna start studying go. -Mynock | ||
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
msn zalforx2@hotmail.com | ||
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kevisyum
Israel105 Posts
only times its annoying is when they dont play go for an entire episode X_X! or when they play go they will have characters faces drift across the screen because they think a plain go board is too boring- but this makes it sort of difficult to read the board- especially if the char has black eyes. but its not oo bad and ill play with you - mabye on the yahoo server? >_< | ||
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Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
and it's really fun | ||
Arbiter[frolix]
United Kingdom2674 Posts
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
Or better yet, like a first person Video of a really good pro, like say the Emperor of Go or the Storm Go? I wonder what kind of APM the pros have.... my APM is around 200, but I bet pro Go players have like 500 APM omg that's crazy just to think about. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 12 2006 06:44 HonestTea wrote: Is there a website where I can download replays or VODs of pros playing Go? Or better yet, like a first person Video of a really good pro, like say the Emperor of Go or the Storm Go? I wonder what kind of APM the pros have.... my APM is around 200, but I bet pro Go players have like 500 APM omg that's crazy just to think about. Lol :D | ||
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
.00001 they honestly spend hours on one move. <_< even days. | ||
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One Page Memory
Bulgaria2145 Posts
On July 11 2006 09:18 kevisyum wrote: In chess- there are VERY few oppenings (mabye 2-3) when your advanced- and you win by the degree of moves ahead you can see. but- somehow GO becomes infinitley more strageticley complex than chess- where as many computer prograhmers can make a good chess AI(as all it does is compute a massive number of future combinations- if its in house records can give no hints)- no GO AI has yet surfaced I extract just the two sentences that are very wrong. First one - in chess there AREN'T very few openings. There are five big groups - A, B, C, D and E. Each of them has from 00 to 99 - i.e - A00, B23, etc. Then each of them again branches to many subvariations. One man can't memorize even 20 % of all openings - thats why there are DVD disks with openings. Second - computer software don't rely pure on Brute Force (computing massive number of cobinations). Yes, Brute Force is big part of it, but therefore there are too many chess programs. If it was as you say - then there will be just one program. I dunno about the part that GO is more complexed than chess, so I will not comment it, because I never playe GO. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
The chess algorithms that are out there today (like the one used in Deep Blue) are basically just brute force algorithms placed on machines specifically designed to handle chess and chess only. GO is actually being considered as the "next hurdle" for sure algorithms. QUOTE] Very true. I took a class on advanced algorithms last year, and the professor was preaching litanies of complicated crap about Go. It definitely seems to be the big "super project" for programmers. Deep Blue is a bit more complicated than pure force though. It's some sort of rediculously advanced pattern-matching algorithm. There's a fancy name for the math used in it, but I can't even recall what it was. | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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Jathin
United States3505 Posts
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artofmagic
United States1951 Posts
rank 14 kyu @ kgs  i prefer http://kgs.kiseido.com/ since there are rankings.. There are many high rank players and occasionally pro's giving lessons(must have subscriptions) | ||
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
On July 13 2006 05:40 Jathin wrote: Is this the game Nash plays at the beginning of A Beautiful Mind against that dude at Princeton. Horribly, I might add. Anybody with the most basic of Go ability will laugh when they see that scene. I just hate it when Hollywood says, "fuck it, we're HOLLYWOOD" and don't pay attention to detail. | ||
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maoam
United Kingdom444 Posts
On July 13 2006 05:21 Haemonculus wrote: Deep Blue is a bit more complicated than pure force though. It's some sort of rediculously advanced pattern-matching algorithm. There's a fancy name for the math used in it, but I can't even recall what it was. Deep Blue doesn't really use any sophisticated mathematical tools. It's essentially brute-force, with a certain amount of pruning (e.g. alpha-beta, null-move etc.) of the search tree, and an evaluation function that was optimised using many master games as a reference. On July 13 2006 04:58 One Page Memory wrote: One man can't memorize even 20 % of all openings - thats why there are DVD disks with openings. Kasparov probably knows every variation worth knowing. Of course, some super-GMs like Morozevich choose to play offbeat openings every now and again, but that's for surprise value mostly. Go endgames are very interesting from the game-theoretical viewpoint. In certain cases, you can determine the best play using ideas developed by Berlekamp, which often 9-dans fail to find. I find Go to be far more elegant and aesthetic than Chess, playing over a game of Go on a proper Goban with proper stones makes it feel more like art or poetry to me. I find it fascinating how the players of different nations have such different styles. For example, if you compare the styles of Nie Weiping to Takemiya Masaki, or to Cho Hunhyun. For those who've had a chance to study game records: who're your favourite Go players? Classical and modern. If I had to limit it to two, I'd probably say Fujisawa Shuko (modern) and Honinbo Shuei (classical). | ||
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
On July 13 2006 08:54 maoam wrote: For example, if you compare the styles of Nie Weiping to Takemiya Masaki, or to Cho Hunhyun. Could you please elaborate more on that point? I'm curious about your insight on that topic. Keep in mind, though, that I know very little about Go. | ||
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maoam
United Kingdom444 Posts
Takemiya Masaki is known for his "cosmic" style. This refers to his ability to make very large moyos (territorial frameworks, where he surrounds large areas with his stones) and hold on to them somehow, even though it appears impossible. Japanese players don't think of things in terms of Haengma, but in terms of shape (efficiency, or structure of the stones). Good shapes are groups like the Ikken Tobi (one-space jump), Keima (knight's move) etc. Nie Wieping was the first modern Chinese 9-dan to compete with the Japanese. I think what characterises his play is a whole-board approach, and this is most clear when you look at how he plays the fuseki (opening). As for Chinese players in general, I'm not sure I can put into words what I feel is different about their style. It's difficult for me to describe the differences without being able to make clear the feeling of playing over the games, but I hope that helps. | ||
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kevisyum
Israel105 Posts
i wonder how much a giant go board would cost and youd have to move the pieces with giant sticks >_< | ||
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
the thing ur talking about is like, part of ur house... <_< i'm on KGS btw. fav. go player is Wu Qing Yuan. =) | ||
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IIICodeIIIIIII
China1101 Posts
With that being said. All sports are equally competative, but are so in different ways. A spelling be is just as competative as wrestling, but to be the best, you are spending more time memorizing rote memory. And for chess, to be the best, you are spending more time analyzing variations and remembering ways to think. Time commitment is the same for any competative sport. For people who are competent, everything else fades away and the real strata is determined by person A spends 40 hours a week practicing for 10 years. person B spends 20 hours a week practicing for 10 years. foregone conclusion. A vs B, 5-0. not good game, no rematch noob. | ||
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Arbiter[frolix]
United Kingdom2674 Posts
On July 14 2006 19:33 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote: people who talk about one sport being harder than another sport is retarded. same goes for anything competative including video games and school and jobs. All competative things are equally hard because you aren't competing against the chess pieces or the go pieces or your teachers. you are competing against the other people. Actually, I disagree. Isn't it true that some games and sports are easier to become proficient at than others? So in some sense at least, chess is much 'harder' than, for example, noughts and crosses. | ||
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tenbagger
United States1289 Posts
http://igo-kisen.hp.infoseek.co.jp/news.html euqivalent of ygclan for go, has replays of every major tourney. great way to improve is to go over pro games and try to predict each move. Then after you see the move, try to figure out why they played it that way. http://gobase.org/ I guess you can say its like the TL of go. Has replays, although not as thorough or timely as the site above. However, it has many articles, joseki database and many other go resources. I didn't realize so many TL members were also go players. I'm 1dan on IGS, pm me here if you would like a game. Even if you're not so good, I can offer a teaching game. FA, if you read this, I'm sorry I wasn't able to give you that game before. Something came up and I was busy for a few weeks, and then I kinda forgot about it. If you're still interested, I can give you that teaching game we talked about. And my favorite player is Lee Sedol, kinda reminds me of nada for some reason. His play is a little more unorthodox than Lee Changho for example, and a lot of his games involve huge fights. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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maoam
United Kingdom444 Posts
On July 14 2006 20:31 tenbagger wrote: And my favorite player is Lee Sedol, kinda reminds me of nada for some reason. His play is a little more unorthodox than Lee Changho for example, and a lot of his games involve huge fights. I love his nickname: "boy, the unbeatable." | ||
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
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hasuprotoss
United States4612 Posts
Edit: And you would also have to teach me some of the vocabulary... I don't understand most of it T_T. | ||
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maoam
United Kingdom444 Posts
When you've played a few games, I suggest you submit your best effort to the Go Teaching ladder to see what you can improve on. The best way to learn how to play the middle game is studying professional games. Get a game collection book, or find some annotated games online, and play over them. Solve as many tesuji and tsumego problems as you can! I don't recommend studying joseki at first, just learn general principles in the opening (Otake Hideo wrote a very good book on this). The endgame is best studied once you have a firm grasp of tsumego (life and death). | ||
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tenbagger
United States1289 Posts
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maoam
United Kingdom444 Posts
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kevisyum
Israel105 Posts
is pandanet the main server for playing go and climbing up the kyus? | ||
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hasuprotoss
United States4612 Posts
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rawrx
United States380 Posts
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On July 17 2006 08:30 kevisyum wrote: cool those sites look awesome >_< is pandanet the main server for playing go and climbing up the kyus? KGS (kgs.kiseido.com) has more players than IGS. It's the best place to find beginners to play with. It's also the server thaht has the most western player, not many Asian players there. IGS (pandanet) does not have many weak players, mainly high kyu and dan players. Also it's the server thaht has the most Japanese players. Oro (sensei's library explains how to download the client and get an account) is another place to play. It has Japanese, Chinese and Korean servers. I played some games on the Korean server, almost only Asian players (I'd say at least 95%). The style is very specific there (they fight well, but they are usually bad at everything else, so they fight whenever they can). DGS (www.dragongoserver.net) is a turn based server. There is also a Chinese server called TOM but the client is all in Chinese so I did not tried it at all. You can find more information about it on sensei's library. In my opinion, KGS is the best place to start, climbing to about 15 kyu. You will easily find opponents of your strength, and it's the best client to review your games. | ||
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kevisyum
Israel105 Posts
anyone wanna play me jsut msg me - msn kevisyum@hotmail.com A funny thing I've noticed about GO over my year of playing it is the more I play go, the better I get at thinking- especially if what I'm thinking about involves trying to think in 3D and how different parts will relate to each other- For example my chess has become stronger than ever- And my martial arts choreography abilities have gone through the roof- As now I can imagine and mold the fight scenes in my head. >_< Of course I still have a very very long way to go- I just thought that was an interesting phenomena with me- any one else have a similar expierence? Also, based on this, what do you think the chances are that GO can help people play better STarcraft, be better doctors, better prograhmers etc?... or am I running away with this game? >_< | ||
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