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I recently had yet another big blowout with my parents so I am gonna take this opportunity to let my bile ooze out a bit.
LGBT Rights and Gender Equality Thread - Page 23
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
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farvacola
United States18855 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:13 Klondikebar wrote: Most Christians are fine ignoring the Old Testament. They like to quote Paul from the New Testament where he says gay sex is a sin. Now, if this were a rational discussion, you could point to the entire fucking chapter where Paul says slaves should love and obey their masters...or the part where he says even heterosexual sex is just an indulgence of sin and we would all conclude that Paul is not an authority on human rights or any relationships...but this is not a rational discussion. If they are like my parents they will say that those passages are open to interpretation and that those parts don't count. At which point I conclude that the only thing I can do is wait for them to die and the world will be a better place. It is worth nothing that many, many Christians take issue with Paul and his teachings, and the manner with which we are to understand his place in Christian dogma/doctrine is a major point of contention. A lot of how one regards institutions like that Catholic church comes down to how one theorizes a "perfect" world. Many would like to live in a world where everyone adheres to some fundamental understanding of human rights, and it is with this in mind that they condemn conservative establishments like the Catholic Church, even when they "seem" to make forward progress. This is a fine view, albeit one that succumbs to a bit too much optimism imo. My personal take is something more like a toleration of "wrong" attitudes so long as they are kept from harming others. Edit: I'll also add that, depending on ones view, "slightly less evil" in the context of the Catholic Church IS an awesome gift lol | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:18 Klondikebar wrote: Yeah. But why are we acting like this Pope is super tolerant? The reaction I'm seeing on Reddit and other news sites is "THIS POPE IS AWESOME!!" No guys, this pope is slightly less evil than the last pope. We take what we can get, but stop acting like we're getting an awesome gift. We don't know how tolerant he is at that point, but he appears to want to make the church more tolerant and accepting. You never get clear statments from the Catholic Church and they is a lot of infighitng going with them right now. No Pope has stepped down in a very, very long time and the fact that it happened without much cause or reason makes me think is a section of the CC that wants to make the Chuch more open and accepting. Which makes it an internal conflct between the bigots of the CC and those who are willing to accecpt gay members of into the Church. Calling the man evil won't get you anything you are looking for. He is unproven in my book and we will have to see what he does over time. But there isn't going to be a huge change or a speach that changes everything. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
Yeah. But why are we acting like this Pope is super tolerant? The reaction I'm seeing on Reddit and other news sites is "THIS POPE IS AWESOME!!" No guys, this pope is slightly less evil than the last pope. We take what we can get, but stop acting like we're getting an awesome gift. I don't think it makes any sense to call the current pope (or the last one, or the one before him) "evil" in any real sense. Incorrect about a very fundamental question, yes, but to the credit of the CC's doctrines themselves, they really don't have anything to do with malice. In addition, the CC does teach that one should under no circumstances do anything to homosexual people. I'm not saying that there aren't serious flaws with this, but "evil" implies some sort of really egregious hatred, which, in the case of the doctrines/popes themselves, isn't really there. I mean, when I first learned about homosexuality (when I was like 15 or whatever and it was an issue in Canadian politics) I was against homosexuals getting married, not because I didn't like them, but because I thought that it was wrong. I was incorrect, of course, but calling me evil, as opposed to, say, ignorant, is pretty ridiculous. I fully admit to having been ignorant and to having been wrong. But evil I never was, and it would be rather specious to claim so. There's also the point that, by your apparent metric of holding an incorrect moral belief = evil, no person in the history of forever (except maybe a couple of ascetics/martyrs?) wasn't evil. I mean, are we really going to be that hyperbolic, and equate pope Francis, a guy who spent a shitload of time helping the poor, to legitimately awful and obviously evil people like Idi Amin? Say what you will, but I prefer to use the word evil to refer to people who actively try to invalidate the premise that all human beings having ontological dignity; I don't think morons who think gay marriage is wrong, or people who think that the creationism is science, or people who think that premarital sex are evil; I just think they're wrong, and the reason that I don't think they're evil is because the effects of opposing same-sex marriage aren't really obvious to a lot of people (including the CC, which has a tonne of dissidents within it) whereas something really straightforward like killing people is really obviously wrong because the effects are clearly attached to the cause. I think pope Francis is a good person. I think he is a human being, and that he has flaws; some of these flaws are relatively trivial/benign, whereas others are pretty seriously incorrect (like opposition to homosexual marriage). But there are also a lot more really good things about pope Francis as a person, like his sense of charity, his devotion to people in poverty, his rejection of extravagance, and his ecumenism. To me, being a good person means being, generally speaking, mindful of how you can help people in a selfless fashion. Pope Francis has obviously done this throughout his life. To throw him in the "evil" pile because of a few incorrect (but essentially non-malicious i.e. a product of arrogance/ignorance rather than actual hatred) moral positions which don't even have much weight in Western societies anymore (contraception is legal pretty much everywhere, same-sex marriage is legalized in more places every year etc. I know that it's still a big issue in the US, but I think that's less of a Catholic problem and more of a Christian Right problem) is pretty silly. Believe me Plansix, I have had this discussion with them ad nauseum. I know every response, I know every argument. At some point you just have to accept that they will not change their minds no matter what. When you have a magic book that tells you very specifically how to live your life but also demands that you be very skeptical of all other sources of life knowledge, you set yourself up to never improve or grow. And then before you know it you're on your deathbed and you realize you've never known your son as an adult. Ah, well this explains a lot. I totally see why you'd be upset, and you definitely have a right to be. I just want to say that, while the CC is totally wrong on this issue, there are a lot of Catholics (both clergy and lay people) who totally disagree with this position and support same-sex marriage, myself included. So, in that respect, we'll try to change the CC so that people like you feel more welcome in the world. | ||
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ThreeAcross
172 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:13 Klondikebar wrote: At which point I conclude that the only thing I can do is wait for them to die and the world will be a better place. On July 30 2013 04:06 Klondikebar wrote: Maybe I'm too cynical but "a step in the right direction" has never really been praiseworthy for me when it comes to human rights. Look, the obvious and not bigoted thing to say is "gay people are fine, let's get back to dealing with poverty and shit" but when they say "we'll quit being mean to gays as long as they stop bothering us for their rights" it's this landmark declaration of progress? When a child says 2+2=5 we don't laud them for getting it "almost right." I know human rights aren't mathematics but when the right answer is so damn obvious shouldn't we just be rolling our eyes that they still can't get it right? You show your immaturity and youth in these two posts. To think that the world and anyone living in the world just change views overnight is ridiculous. You point out a 2+2=5 for a child. How about thinking of, we don't expect a child to magically start running the day after they are born. We expect gradually growth, first they roll, they sit up, they crawl, they pull themselves up, they teeter, they walk, they fall, they run. They don't go from rolling to running. Any step forward is a good step, no matter the size. And wishing your parents death is upmost immature. They may have issues, but I'm sure they don't wish you death for disagreeing with them. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
I actually have very little respect for people who tolerate or rely on pure handwaving arguments. I think they do damage to the world. Perhaps evil is too strong a word, but willful ignorance and lack a critical thinking is something I hate...a lot. It's something I have to deal with far too often from people who ought to be smarter. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:38 ThreeAcross wrote: You show your immaturity and youth in these two posts. To think that the world and anyone living in the world just change views overnight is ridiculous. You point out a 2+2=5 for a child. How about thinking of, we don't expect a child to magically start running the day after they are born. We expect gradually growth, first they roll, they sit up, they crawl, they pull themselves up, they teeter, they walk, they fall, they run. They don't go from rolling to running. Any step forward is a good step, no matter the size. And wishing your parents death is upmost immature. They may have issues, but I'm sure they don't wish you death for disagreeing with them. They want to send me to gay conversion therapy and have been donating thousands of dollars to Exodus International ever since I came out to them. Yeah...they kinda want me either straight or dead. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:41 Klondikebar wrote: I don't think holding an incorrect moral belief makes you "evil." But I do think that when you're using an invisible man in the sky to justify treating people as less than doesn't earn you the adjective "benevolent." Part of having a belief is being able to justify it. I might not agree with your logic, but there needs to be some logic. Saying "this guy said it's wrong therefore it's wrong and I have no other sources" is a woeful abandonment of critical thinking and logic. I actually have very little respect for people who tolerate or rely on pure handwaving arguments. I think they do damage to the world. Perhaps evil is too strong a word, but willful ignorance and lack a critical thinking is something I hate...a lot. It's something I have to deal with far too often from people who ought to be smarter. That's not the Catholic Church's morality. Natural law (as flawed as it is) has always emphasized accessibility to reason. It's not like we hold that non-Catholics can't know morality. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:24 Klondikebar wrote: Believe me Plansix, I have had this discussion with them ad nauseum. I know every response, I know every argument. At some point you just have to accept that they will not change their minds no matter what. When you have a magic book that tells you very specifically how to live your life but also demands that you be very skeptical of all other sources of life knowledge, you set yourself up to never improve or grow. And then before you know it you're on your deathbed and you realize you've never known your son as an adult. + Show Spoiler + I recently had yet another big blowout with my parents so I am gonna take this opportunity to let my bile ooze out a bit. That is a more difficult subject. Normally when I break that one out, I don't want to talk to the people ever again. Your problem is more difficult and required a less aggressive approach. My fathers side of the family hated my mother for being Protestant and not Irish Catholic. We have not dealt with them for years because of it and likely never will. If I were to provide some unsolicited advice, I would say that you want to avoid the religious discussions and/or getting angry. It only feeds into the conflict and there will never be a resolution from that angle. I would address it more on what is fact: You are their kid, you’re not going to change and you don’t need their approval. You would like it, but don’t need it. At that point the ball is in their court and they either can decide to change or not, but its not your job to change them. It sucks, but at the end of the day you can't wait for them to come around, but you can tell them you won't be waiting for them. Also, don’t call the pope evil around the, that will go over poorly and just start one of those fights.. I would just say “He seems more tolerant that the last one, but we will have to see.” Always try to be the more mature, level headed party. It helps a lot and its hard to get mad at someone who isn’t getting mad back. | ||
KwarK
United States43719 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:42 Klondikebar wrote: They want to send me to gay conversion therapy and have been donating thousands of dollars to Exodus International ever since I came out to them. Yeah...they kinda want me either straight or dead. I'm so very sorry. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
this respect towards religion, gays, race goes both ways. some of you guys just shit on religion like radicals would shit on heathens. at least they're backing their shit up with religious context, people like bill mahar and some of you guys claim rationality yet shits on religion just because its religion rather than try to understand what religion is and how its weaved into our civilization. spewing garbage like "religion only does harm" doesnt get us anywhere, it is what it is, understand it and try to see common ground. people like bill mahar has so much arrogance and double standards that its facepalm worthy. on the other hand, someone like neil tyson is god level. let us be more like neil tyson, tyson for president! | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On July 30 2013 05:50 jinorazi wrote: the new pope, as far as i can see is humble, progressive and tries to live true to "humility" of the bible...but he is "less evil"? this respect towards religion, gays, race goes both ways. some of you guys just shit on religion like radicals would shit on heathens. at least they're backing their shit up with religious context, people like bill mahar and some of you guys claim rationality yet shits on religion just because its religion rather than try to understand what religion is and how its weaved into our civilization. spewing garbage like "religion only does harm" doesnt get us anywhere, it is what it is, understand it and try to see common ground. people like bill mahar has so much arrogance and double standards that its facepalm worthy. on the other hand, someone like neil tyson is god level. let us be more like neil tyson, tyson for president! My beliefs translate to a colorful sign at protests. Homophobic beliefs translate to laws that oppress and disenfranchise a minority. It's not a two way street when the outcomes are so different. And no, I don't hate all religious people. My roommate is religious and he's a sweetheart. Wouldn't hurt a fly, never judges anyone and has even called out pastors on saying some...less than nice things. I am just severely skeptical of institutional religion and its figureheads. And people subscribe wholesale to whatever dogma their institution preaches, with no thought as to the content whatsoever. When we're talking about religion in the context of homophobia, I think pretty much everyone is assuming we're talking about the asshole religious people. No one thinks we're talking about the nice ones. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:21 Rombur wrote: Well reading the article from the BBC and from Reuters, I understand two different things. According to Reuters, he was just replying to a question about the gay lobby in Vatican and it looks like he's just talking about lobbying in the Vatican. That was what I read too: "The problem is not having this orientation," he said. "We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem." I think he just really hates lobbies. | ||
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DBS
515 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:41 Klondikebar wrote: I don't think holding an incorrect moral belief makes you "evil." But I do think that when you're using an invisible man in the sky to justify treating people as less than doesn't earn you the adjective "benevolent." Part of having a belief is being able to justify it. I might not agree with your logic, but there needs to be some logic. Saying "this guy said it's wrong therefore it's wrong and I have no other sources" is a woeful abandonment of critical thinking and logic. I actually have very little respect for people who tolerate or rely on pure handwaving arguments. I think they do damage to the world. Perhaps evil is too strong a word, but willful ignorance and lack a critical thinking is something I hate...a lot. It's something I have to deal with far too often from people who ought to be smarter. Have you ever read Augustine or Aquinas or countless other scholars? They are logical and great critical thinkers. Religious people are not willfully ignorant, at least not all of us. We have just logically thought about it and come to a different conclusion than you have. The catholic church also says that you should follow your conscience over the teachings of the church. I am a huge advocate of gay rights, I was a pride parade early this summer. However, believe it or not, I'm catholic and i respect Pope Francis hugely. When you say that one fault leads to someone being considered not benevolent that is foolish. Benevolent does not mean perfect. So please, just because you disagree with someone, do not assume that it is because they are stupid or have willfully chosen ignorance. There are people who have devoted there entire lives to THINKING LOGICALLY about God and they tend to not end up athiests. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:01 KwarK wrote: Jesus never condemned gays, he was actually pretty good about not condemning people. No further steps are needed for Catholics to stop hating gays, in fact, not hating people is pretty much the core message of Jesus. Jesus did say that homosexual sex is a sin. This is inarguable. Now, believing that homosexual sex is a sin and that homosexual marriage is a sinful practice is not "hating" gays. The Catholic Church does not teach that gays should be hated. In fact, they teach the opposite. Homosexuals should be loved just like any other sinner (we are all sinners). Also, Catholics don't ignore the Old Testament. They interpret it. | ||
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Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
On July 30 2013 06:19 sc2superfan101 wrote: Jesus did say that homosexual sex is a sin. This is inarguable. Now, believing that homosexual sex is a sin and that homosexual marriage is a sinful practice is not "hating" gays. The Catholic Church does not teach that gays should be hated. In fact, they teach the opposite. Homosexuals should be loved just like any other sinner (we are all sinners). Also, Catholics don't ignore the Old Testament. They interpret it. Ofcourse they also teach that gays should not get equal rights, but thats ok cos you love them so damn much right? | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On July 30 2013 06:19 sc2superfan101 wrote: Jesus did say that homosexual sex is a sin. This is inarguable. Now, believing that homosexual sex is a sin and that homosexual marriage is a sinful practice is not "hating" gays. The Catholic Church does not teach that gays should be hated. In fact, they teach the opposite. Homosexuals should be loved just like any other sinner (we are all sinners). Also, Catholics don't ignore the Old Testament. They interpret it. But I always hated that kind of interpretation. I have talked to many Christians who say they are fine with me being queer and they will pray for me, but it is so goddamn condescending and unpleasant and passive aggressive. And they say that we are all sinners and hate is bad, but you know damn well that they mean something different when addressing homosexuality. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On July 30 2013 06:19 sc2superfan101 wrote: Jesus did say that homosexual sex is a sin. This is inarguable. Now, believing that homosexual sex is a sin and that homosexual marriage is a sinful practice is not "hating" gays. The Catholic Church does not teach that gays should be hated. In fact, they teach the opposite. Homosexuals should be loved just like any other sinner (we are all sinners). Also, Catholics don't ignore the Old Testament. They interpret it. Where exactly did Jesus say that homosexual sex is a sin? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 30 2013 06:19 sc2superfan101 wrote: Jesus did say that homosexual sex is a sin. This is inarguable. Now, believing that homosexual sex is a sin and that homosexual marriage is a sinful practice is not "hating" gays. The Catholic Church does not teach that gays should be hated. In fact, they teach the opposite. Homosexuals should be loved just like any other sinner (we are all sinners). Also, Catholics don't ignore the Old Testament. They interpret it. Yeah, well Protestants also interpret both Testaments and I don't agree that Jesus said homosexuality was a sin and neither does anyone in my church. I think some ass hole translated Jesus's teachings and added that line in because he was a bigot. After all, the church made a very good practice of "translating" the bible into modern text over the years and there is NO reason to believe Jesus's words came through unchanged. Also, the Catholics like to ingore the part of the old Testament that says we can't play football. And that makes slavery legal and allowable under god. Those parts they freely ignore. Or interpret as dumb. | ||
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. I don't want to start a religious debate, but I think the future of the church in the light of progressive secular humanist values is really fascinating.
