On March 28 2013 08:51 SkelA wrote: I still wonder why USA bombed Japan cities instead of bombing a unpopulated area which would have the same effect in the surendering of Japan.
I always felt there could had been a successful diplomat talk after the first bomb. Why Japanese didn't surrender was, imo, partly because they would have no 'steps' to fell back behind, meaning if they surrender, they have to look utter crap and that is not do-able to a proud and strong nation like Japan, especially with the Emperor who has to face the population.
opps. mod note at top.
apparently some n korea officials are on weibo (like a chinese facebook twitter thing) and they are not yet verified. It is possible however since we had the first tweet just not too long ago from NK. And there had been worrying news that NK is really considering to do something to USA (aiming missiles target etc) but there are also reports saying the missile silos are fake (or not functional)
It's a very difficult situation for China right now since NK is still his allies and if he doesn't show support, China's allies will have doubts. but if he shows support, we know the international would hate on China
The U.S military says two nuclear-capable B-2 bombers have completed a training mission in South Korea amid threats from North Korea that include nuclear strikes on Washington and Seoul.
This is the first time that I know of that we've done Nuclear strike practice drills over there. If we're stationing nuclear capabilities in SK because they don't have their own, we could be creating NK's version of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
On March 28 2013 20:56 calgar wrote: The B-2s are an interesting move. I'm pretty sure this is the last thing NK wants because the whole bark and bluff strategy only works until someone calls your bluff. And sending stealth bombers capable of nuking Pyongyang is calling their bluff pretty strongly. Does Pyongyang have radar anyways? I guess it does but it still brings up an image of sending a professional thief to steal a child's candy. Interesting to see how Kim Jr responds when he realizes the tough guy act is going to be ignored and responded to in force...
I believe the idea is that it is difficult to see stealth bombers using typical radar systems.
On March 28 2013 21:46 sCCrooked wrote: Just thought I should go ahead and update with some actual Korean news on the situation since its gotten off topic to Japan.
The U.S military says two nuclear-capable B-2 bombers have completed a training mission in South Korea amid threats from North Korea that include nuclear strikes on Washington and Seoul.
This is the first time that I know of that we've done Nuclear strike practice drills over there. If we're stationing nuclear capabilities in SK because they don't have their own, we could be creating NK's version of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Not really, i don't think anyone doubts that the US could hit any point in NK with nuclear weapons at the present, which means that stationing those in SK would not add any additional threat, which was the whole point of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Logically, the reason why NK has been positioning all of their artillery and putting it on the ready is so that they can open fire in a matter of a few seconds in case of an incoming attack. Preventing NK from getting off lots of shots would require synchronized damage to NK's entire offensive capability in a matter of a couple of seconds, which is no small feat!
On March 28 2013 23:12 micronesia wrote: Logically, the reason why NK has been positioning all of their artillery and putting it on the ready is so that they can open fire in a matter of a few seconds in case of an incoming attack. Preventing NK from getting off lots of shots would require synchronized damage to NK's entire offensive capability in a matter of a couple of seconds, which is no small feat!
You are right. This is what makes the NK situation so delicate. Seoul is in range of a lot of artillery. This is what could happen:
OK, maybe I'm slightly exaggerating. NK probably doesn't have nukes in it's artillery.... probably.
On March 28 2013 20:56 calgar wrote: The B-2s are an interesting move. I'm pretty sure this is the last thing NK wants because the whole bark and bluff strategy only works until someone calls your bluff. And sending stealth bombers capable of nuking Pyongyang is calling their bluff pretty strongly. Does Pyongyang have radar anyways? I guess it does but it still brings up an image of sending a professional thief to steal a child's candy. Interesting to see how Kim Jr responds when he realizes the tough guy act is going to be ignored and responded to in force...
I believe the idea is that it is difficult to see stealth bombers using typical radar systems.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the concept of stealth My point is that I found the idea humorous that NK, not being able to afford to heat their buildings in the winter, might not even have radar, making the use of $750 million stealth planes hilariously overkill. According to wiki they do have radar with soviet SAMs, though, so my musings are fictitious.
NK better be ready to launch SAMs at anything showing up as bigger than a beach ball if they want a chance. But they would probably mostly be destroyed in preemptive strikes so I doubt they would do much good anyways. I'll put my faith in cutting-edge countermeasure flares over 40 year old missile technology, anyways.
Ughhhh, I think the bombers in south korea was a bad move. Why did we need to "stoop to their level" for lack of a better way of saying it? This cant possibly do anything to reduce tensions
On March 29 2013 01:41 Aveng3r wrote: Ughhhh, I think the bombers in south korea was a bad move. Why did we need to "stoop to their level" for lack of a better way of saying it? This cant possibly do anything to reduce tensions
We're not stopping to their level. Their level is threatening to nuke a random country for no reason in order to gain leverage to bargain for more economic aid. It's obviously going to raise tensions, but NK is the clearly the one that is driving it in that direction. They can stop their program at any time but instead they've pissed on any attempt for bargaining by the UN. B-2s having nothing to do with stopping to their level. It's all about calling the new Kim's bluff. He's a new leader and he's been very bold and talked a ton of talk to try and match very high expectations for a leader. Well too bad, if he wants war then he's going to get it because the rest of the world isn't going to tolerate aggressive military action against peaceful countries by a fanatical aggressor.
Its kind of like appeasement in WWII. Hitler makes crazy aggressive claims and then people relent in the hope that they it will be the end of it. When you cave in like that you completely remove any credibility you have and make it clear you will tolerate being walked all over. You have to draw a line in the sand sooner or later.
About Kim Jr... isn't it known he got education from outside the country (thus a quality educaton?)? If so, is he stupid? Is he manipulated? Is he forced to do things because of the power thar "really" rule NK?
On March 29 2013 03:02 XenOmega wrote: About Kim Jr... isn't it known he got education from outside the country (thus a quality educaton?)? If so, is he stupid? Is he manipulated? Is he forced to do things because of the power thar "really" rule NK?
I imagine it's a mix of honor, power, and raw stupidity that drive him to do the things he does.
ElMeanYo You should have used the scene from Dr. Strangelove. The whole scenario is about as silly as that movie ^_^
On March 29 2013 01:41 Aveng3r wrote: Ughhhh, I think the bombers in south korea was a bad move. Why did we need to "stoop to their level" for lack of a better way of saying it? This cant possibly do anything to reduce tensions
We're not stopping to their level. Their level is threatening to nuke a random country for no reason in order to gain leverage to bargain for more economic aid. It's obviously going to raise tensions, but NK is the clearly the one that is driving it in that direction. They can stop their program at any time but instead they've pissed on any attempt for bargaining by the UN. B-2s having nothing to do with stopping to their level. It's all about calling the new Kim's bluff. He's a new leader and he's been very bold and talked a ton of talk to try and match very high expectations for a leader. Well too bad, if he wants war then he's going to get it because the rest of the world isn't going to tolerate aggressive military action against peaceful countries by a fanatical aggressor.
Its kind of like appeasement in WWII. Hitler makes crazy aggressive claims and then people relent in the hope that they it will be the end of it. When you cave in like that you completely remove any credibility you have and make it clear you will tolerate being walked all over. You have to draw a line in the sand sooner or later.
Yeah, you make good points, and Im rethinking my position here.. I mean maybe this scares the piss out of them and they chill out, but idk I wouldnt put anything past these people. The shit that they tell their citizens and the shit that they say makes me think that the leaders over there truly are crazy.
On March 28 2013 08:51 SkelA wrote: I still wonder why USA bombed Japan cities instead of bombing a unpopulated area which would have the same effect in the surendering of Japan.
I always felt there could had been a successful diplomat talk after the first bomb. Why Japanese didn't surrender was, imo, partly because they would have no 'steps' to fell back behind, meaning if they surrender, they have to look utter crap and that is not do-able to a proud and strong nation like Japan, especially with the Emperor who has to face the population.
I think it's generally accepted fact that Japan was going to surrender after the first nuke, and that the second nuke was both a deterrent to the Soviet Union who mobilized troops to occupy mainland Japan, a really big back the fuck off kind of thing, and to hurry the Japanese surrender so that the US could move further into SEA/China/Korea ahead of the Soviets.
On March 28 2013 21:46 sCCrooked wrote: Just thought I should go ahead and update with some actual Korean news on the situation since its gotten off topic to Japan.
The U.S military says two nuclear-capable B-2 bombers have completed a training mission in South Korea amid threats from North Korea that include nuclear strikes on Washington and Seoul.
This is the first time that I know of that we've done Nuclear strike practice drills over there. If we're stationing nuclear capabilities in SK because they don't have their own, we could be creating NK's version of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
I haven't seen anything suggesting that the US is going to station nuclear capabilities in SK. The articles I read said the B-2s left from and returned to the US mainland. I admit I haven't been following super closely, so I may have missed something.
On March 28 2013 07:03 Salazarz wrote: Seriously? Japan wouldn't surrender, and it would be a bloody war with millions of casualties? They had basically no standing army left by the time nukes were bombed. Majority of Japanese troops were stationed in Manchuria and around the Pacific, and they were crushed by that point. They had barely any fuel for what few operating warships and aircraft they had left, food supply was a major issue, and there were no reserves to be called upon. I'm sorry but I'm not going to give you any 'sources' on this because it's not something I just looked up on wikipedia or whatever stupid website just now to prove how valid my argument is. But hey, I'm sure they'd put up a glorious defence with like, ninjas and shurikens.
User was temp banned for the "I'm too cool for sources" bit.
No, the nukes were dropped right before / during when the Soviets were invading Manchuria in August Storm. Easily the most one-sided operation of the war between two military powers. It's very possible that the Japanese would have surrendered without any nukes involved... you know... when they were no longer getting infinite resources from Asia's mainland, but Japanese surrender to both USA and USSR would have meant splitting Japan, and we certainly didn't want that.
In fact, iirc, it's hotly debated how much effect the nukes had on Japanese surrender. The Japanese, who were horribly frightened by the Soviets, not only were terrified that the Soviets engaged in war against them, but were decisively conquered in mainland Asia in 10 days, along with the fact they just lost their last resource base. So, in my opinion, the nukes were unnecessary for Japanese surrender. If we waited a few more days, the Japanese would have surrendered with the addition of the Soviet conquest in the war. The usage of nuclear weapons was necessary however without a shadow of a doubt to enable the US to dominate Japan solely, which we do to this day.
I thought we got past the JP / WW2 discussion. Note the header (at top of thread)...
Anyway, the more we become stationed in SK, I feel the higher the tension will be. There is probably a balance between the direct involvement US has in KR area and how defensive we should be, but it's clearly not visible from any normal citizens perspective. Our current position is pretty passive given the situation. We will really have to wait for a major move to happen before we can really discuss much more on this topic =/
N. Korean leader orders preparations of strategic rockets against the U.S. and S. Korea
North Korean leader Kim Jong-un ordered preparations of strategic rockets targeting the United States and South Korea, the North's state-run media said Friday, as military tensions have escalated on the Korean Peninsula.
The Korean Central News Agency said, "(Kim) convened an urgent operation meeting on the Korean People's Army's Strategic Rocket Force's performance of duty for firepower strike at the Supreme Command at 00:30 Friday."
"He finally signed the plan on technical preparations of strategic rockets of the KPA, ordering them to be on standby to fire so that they may strike any time the U.S. mainland, its military bases in the operational theaters in the Pacific, including Hawaii and Guam, and those in south Korea," the report said.
The decision came a day after the United States Air Force's nuclear-capable B-2 stealth bombers carried out their first-ever bombing drill over the Korean Peninsula in a message of strong warning to North Korea, which has threatened a pre-emptive nuclear attack on the U.S. and South Korea.
North Korean leader Kim Jong-un ordered preparations of strategic rockets targeting the United States and South Korea, the North's state-run media said Friday, as military tensions have escalated on the Korean Peninsula.
The Korean Central News Agency said, "(Kim) convened an urgent operation meeting on the Korean People's Army's Strategic Rocket Force's performance of duty for firepower strike at the Supreme Command at 00:30 Friday."
"He finally signed the plan on technical preparations of strategic rockets of the KPA, ordering them to be on standby to fire so that they may strike any time the U.S. mainland, its military bases in the operational theaters in the Pacific, including Hawaii and Guam, and those in south Korea," the report said.
The decision came a day after the United States Air Force's nuclear-capable B-2 stealth bombers carried out their first-ever bombing drill over the Korean Peninsula in a message of strong warning to North Korea, which has threatened a pre-emptive nuclear attack on the U.S. and South Korea.
EPT
My point is that I found the idea humorous that NK, not being able to afford to heat their buildings in the winter, might not even have radar, making the use of $750 million stealth planes hilariously overkill. According to wiki they do have radar with soviet SAMs, though, so my musings are fictitious. 
