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Banks - Somebody more educated fill me in? - Page 4

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contraSol
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States185 Posts
October 26 2012 15:05 GMT
#61
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 26 2012 15:32 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:
In the course of a conversation with a friend, I did my best to understand Quantitative Easing through an Austrian perspective. This was the fruit of that labor and I did my best to convey what I learned using a simple vocabulary. So for whatever it's worth, here you go:

(1)It's true that without "money" the economy would stagnate (bartering is relatively inefficient). But just what" money" is and how it's "value" is determined is, in essence, the entire point at stake because in the case of QE, you have an institution creating, out of thin air, something that is supposed to have value. Unfortunately it can't do this. Yes, it can create the money. But no, it can't create actual values. To understand why it can't do this, you've got to recognize that the only reason markets exist is because things that have value are not free. Anything that's free is not on the market (who would buy something that's free?) Anything that's not free cannot be be magically created, for example, by punching numbers into a computer at the fed. Elaborating on this fact is the bulk or my reply below.

I'm going to start the bulk of my reply by focusing on your conclusion proper. First, if you want me to accept as true your claim that growth in the money supply is necessary for economic growth then you need to explain why that's true (You don't provide an argument, you just state your conclusion). (2) You'll also need to explain why the fed doesn't "print" a trillion-trillion dollars right now to "grow" the economy at a great rate. Finally, (3) in order to differentiate a policy difference between printing 600 billion and a trillion-trillion dollars, you'll need to at least lay out the justification behind the basic methodology used to formulate the "correct" amount of dollars to fabricate.

It seems to me that my task is much easier because my view of what causes growth in an economy is simpler: economic growth is nothing but the result of more profit for the same or less effort. Period (e.g., a hoe, a plow, a tractor in relationship to growing food). My view recognizes that -demand- is, of course, the driver of an economy (because without demand there's no point to any kind of effort), but that supply is the primary indicator of what level of demand (read, consumption) can be satisfied. In my view, any market distortion that leads individuals (and institutions) to believe they can consume more than they -actually- can is problematic. And that's precisely what QE does. How so?

First I'm going to give you a very basic explanation of how QE distorts the market and then I'll give illustrate this with a concrete example.

(4) QE reduces the rate of interest. (5)The problem is that the rate of interest, before government intervention, reflects something real: consumer time preference. If the participants of a market are more eager to save than to consume, then there will be a surge in the amount of savings available. This surge will mean that the rate of interest at which those savings can be loaned out will go down. On the other hand, if the participants of a market of more eager to consume than save, then there will be less savings available for loans and investments and, thus, the interest rate on these loans and investments will be high. The problem is that the fed QE'ing does not fundamentally change the time-preference of the market participants. Thus, surface level change in the interest rate (due to the increase in the money supply) doesn't actually reflect the preferences of the consumers. The result of the incongruity between the rate of interest and the -actual- time preference of market participants is a destructive, inefficient boom-and-bust. This boom-and-bust occurs because investors are relying on the new interest rate for information about consumer preferences when, in fact, they are not getting information about consumer preferences but, instead, are only getting information about immediate changes in the money supply. In short, QE is economically destructive.

To concretely illustrate this process, I'll use your example of the factory. You agreed with me that banks get the money first. The "expectation" is that the banks will invest the new money into new productive enterprises. And this, I believe, is where you should already be suspecting something fishy. Why?

Remember, the fed did not create any new -actual- value. They typed a number into a computer and -bingo- that number became dollars. Obviously you'll agree that the fed could not design a factory in a drawing program on a computer (you know, the kind of program with a "pencil" and a "spray paint" can), print it out and then hope for the factory to magically appear. So how is it that the fed typing in a number and then sending some of those numbers over a wire is going to create a real-life factory?

Well, in essence, QE allows those who first touch the money to be able to build the factory at a reduced price because they've access to the money first (before market prices are able to rise in response to the increased money supply). It's this reduced price, and only this reduced price, that makes the construction of the factory (or whatever venture) economically viable. It has to be this way because if the factory was economically viable -before- the QE, then why did the QE need to happen in order to cause the factory to be built?

Now, critical to your position is the view that once the factory is completed, then it will begin producing goods and, thus, grow the economy. This conclusion is the problem because it focus is too narrow and, as a result, omits the destructive effects caused by the construction of this factory.

The -reason- the factory wasn't profitable before QE was because of the aggregate demand of the consumers in relationship to their income. That is, they may have wanted, say, a newer and bigger flat-screen, but they couldn't -afford- it or weren't willing to choose the flat-screen over -other- values they wanted (house, car, cell phone, shoes, whatever). What the QE has done, though, is make flat-screens cheaper (I'll just stick with the idea that it's a flat-screen factory but it applies to whatever factory you like) because it reduced the price of the factory (via the power of newly created money -before- the market reflects the increase in the money supply via increased prices). At this new, cheaper price, more consumers are likely to choose flat-screens than otherwise would have.

But what else results because of these new, cheap flat-screen tvs? Well, relative to the decrease in the price of flat-screens, other goods are now that much more expensive. Why? Well, if the flat-screen factory was to be built then the materials and the labor had to be bid for on the market. And this means every other are of the market had to pay relatively more for that material and labor. Which means that the prices of goods -other- than flat-screens will go up. So QE has resulted in more flat-screens being produced but, at the same time, less monitors, calculators or whatever else the market would have used those materials and labor for.

Even if this were the end of the consequences of QE, it should be enough to advise against it. That is, why not let consumers dictate what the market produces and not give any institutions an unfair access to newly crated money. Unfortunately, the consequences don't stop here.

Now that more people are buying flat-screens (because of their reduced price) instead of, say, cell phones, a cell-phone factory is no longer profitable (because people are spending their money on flat-screens instead of cell phones). So now the cell-phone factory has to shut down. All the workers get laid off and they must be retrained to build flat-screens.

Further, other individuals and businesses may see the new flat-screen factory churning out tvs and selling them for a profit (a profit made possible by the discounted rate of the capital goods used to create those flat screens). They assume that price//demand relationship for flat screens exists in relationship to the real preferences of consumers (not the discounted-price//demand relationship that -actually- allowed the "profitable" construction of the flat-screen factory), and thus they conclude that they too will be able to profit of the construction of a flat-screen factory. So there is a rush to build flat-screen factories (with a correlating rise in the wages of those that build and work at the factories and the materials used in the production, which means a correlating rise in the price of all those other goods, which means a relative amount of factory closings because of the increased cost of production of, say again, cell phones). Now other investors are seeing the "value" of flat-screen factories as rising. So perhaps they put their money into that area of the market as well. And so on. This is the formation of a bubble.

It's only until the prices in the market reflect the newly created money from the QE does the -real- demand for flat screens become apparent. And it's when this real demand becomes apparent (via decreased demand for flat-screens caused by less willingness to buy flat-screens because of the increased prices [and thus less money to spend on flat screens] of a wide variety of other goods on the market) that the uselessness (read, inefficiency) of the newly constructed flat-screen factories becomes apparent. This is the bust.

And in my understanding, this is precisely what happened in the housing market in the early 2000s. And -this- is why QE (and other interest rate manipulation) is destructive.

Sources:

http://mises.org/journals/scholar/Thornton13.pdf

http://mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae9_4_4.pdf



This is what comes from a lot of reading and no direct experience. I'll try to go in order of my emphasises, since I'm too lazy to spoiler everything one at a time:

(1) This may have been true when money was pegged to gold, and it really forms the basis to our current system, but since money is just special paper (and increasingly just 0s and 1s in an electronic account), it's based on purely on the confidence that a dollar today will be able to buy you something tomorrow. Who promises that? The governments of the country/monetary union that prints the paper, and by proxy, their central bank. So, yes, central banks can successfully create something that is traded for value.

(2) Because this would destroy the confidence explained in (1).

(3) Ph.Ds at top schools are expensive, and years of experience as an economist are hard to come by. Still, I don't think they can even give you an exact answer.

(4) No. QE is used by the Fed to stimulate economic activity when their primary tool to stimulate economic activity, actually decreasing the fed funds interest rate, can no longer be used because of the zero lower bound. Whether or not the ZLB is imaginary is up for debate, but that's a different topic.

(5) No. It reflects how often the lender expects not to be paid back, the lender's cost of funds, and what the lender's competition is doing.

The rest follows the faulty assumptions outlined above, so I won't go into it. For some reason, I feel the need to dispel this stuff... maybe it's because people start conversations in bars about LIBOL (sic) and how the Fed is "giving" away money. Or how QE is designed to raise interest rates and the life-long economists making these decisions somehow are less qualified than a guy who talked to an Austrian and read a few articles off of Google Scholar. My apologies MEDiA, nothing personal.


Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-26 16:13:49
October 26 2012 16:10 GMT
#62
If the banks realy have that manny reserves, then why did they need to be bailed out with tarp and other programs?
My guess is the reserves are all loans from the fed wich at one point have to be paid back.
Think the banks needed the extra funds to restore the faith in the system.
At the same time this is a transfer of monney to the banks.
The interest they get on the "reserves" (wich are not theirs) is probably higher then the interest they have to pay to the fed.
In the end when the monney has to be paid back the banks have made a small profit on it because of this difference in interest.

Also:you say the banks dont lend out this monney BUT:
If they dont lend out this monney, then who is paying them the interest you say they collect on it?
It has to be lend out in some way, maybe a deposit back at the fed lol.

Dont realy have enough information to further comment on this, not realy sure what the definition of these reserves and required reserves is here.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
October 26 2012 16:14 GMT
#63
On October 27 2012 00:05 contraSol wrote:
(1) This may have been true when money was pegged to gold, and it really forms the basis to our current system, but since money is just special paper (and increasingly just 0s and 1s in an electronic account), it's based on purely on the confidence that a dollar today will be able to buy you something tomorrow. Who promises that? The governments of the country/monetary union that prints the paper, and by proxy, their central bank. So, yes, central banks can successfully create something that is traded for value.


Right, isn't that the point though? The Government creates fictitious capital by printing money. That fictitious capital gets traded as an exchange value. But it has yet to be realized as a value, that is, it has yet to produce something that would fulfill the expectations of future value created by a larger money supply. The government can create exchange values by printing money, but not values...
shikata ga nai
Holy_AT
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria978 Posts
October 26 2012 16:29 GMT
#64
The whole financial and monetary system is flawed. I thas been prooven that this system ith interrest can not work and that the finacial markes have to crash every century or half a century.
There is this example when you put a dollar or a peny, I dont quite remember it in the bank when jesus christ died this deposit would be worth gold in the size of planet earth multiple times.
Also a financial system that has nothing todo with the real market and industry is also doomed to fail and is not needed. Making money by doing literally nothing ? If it was energy it would violate several axioms.
Our today system is flawed and needs to be replaced with a fundamentally new system.

And why do banks stack up reserves ? Because the crisis escalated when people wanted to withdraw huge amount of money that the banks didn't have. Banks only have a small percentage of own capital, and when large amounts of money are withdrawn the bubbles begin to burst because there is no money.
aka_star
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United Kingdom1546 Posts
October 26 2012 16:39 GMT
#65
Don't be a sucker, take lots of risks with other peoples money and you'll be fine....

That's what the financial system is telling us... flawed piece of shit, anyone else want to retreat from the madness of society?
FlashDave.999 aka Star
contraSol
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States185 Posts
October 26 2012 16:43 GMT
#66
On October 27 2012 01:14 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2012 00:05 contraSol wrote:
(1) This may have been true when money was pegged to gold, and it really forms the basis to our current system, but since money is just special paper (and increasingly just 0s and 1s in an electronic account), it's based on purely on the confidence that a dollar today will be able to buy you something tomorrow. Who promises that? The governments of the country/monetary union that prints the paper, and by proxy, their central bank. So, yes, central banks can successfully create something that is traded for value.


Right, isn't that the point though? The Government creates fictitious capital by printing money. That fictitious capital gets traded as an exchange value. But it has yet to be realized as a value, that is, it has yet to produce something that would fulfill the expectations of future value created by a larger money supply. The government can create exchange values by printing money, but not values...


It can create exchange values, which are used by the private sector to create real value in terms of goods and services. Whether or not this is "fair" or optimal is a tangent to this discussion that I don't want to go down.

Saying that "the Fed doesn't create value by injecting liquidity into the economy" is accurate but myopic. The Fed injects liquidity so that the market can create that value.
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
October 26 2012 16:44 GMT
#67
The system is not flawed, the system is essential.
The execution is flawed though, i have to agree with that.

Fractional reserve banking has its origins in the 17th century in europe, and look where we are right now!
A huge part of this enormous growth can be atributed to fractional reserve banking.
Fractional reserve banking (and the inflation it inevitably brings) is essential to prevent monney and people from becoming "lazy"
It is the mechanism that is most suited to extract the absolute max out of all the combined resources on earth (human resources included)
contraSol
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States185 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-26 16:46:28
October 26 2012 16:45 GMT
#68
Deleted by me: I'm not going to respond to incoherent posts.
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-26 17:30:31
October 26 2012 16:49 GMT
#69
Well:that could verry well be, i did end my post with the statement that i didnt had enough information to realy comment.
However i love to learn, so if you can explain to me what these reserves are, i would be realy happy.
The openings post is hardly sufficient for this.

It seems highly unlikely to me that this is the banks own monney, the banks didnt report huge profits, definatly not close to the amount with wich the reserves have risen. So where does the monney come from then if it are not loans from the fed?
Did credit outstanding contract with the same amount as the reserves has risen? that would make sense but i doubt thats the case here.
am serious btw, i realy would like it if you could explain it a bit further, as i already admitted that i dont realy know what these reserves are and where they come from.

Found your verry decent explanation at the previous page.
contraSol United States. October 26 2012 14:20. Posts 176
then my question is: How is what i say different from what you say? (you say it a bit better but i think we basicly say the same here)

@below
It also represents how much profit the lender believes he can make. In other words, the lender will always charge as much interest as possible (to maximize profit).

Comptition will (at least should) keep the interest rates the bank charges at the "right" value.
They cant overcharge because then someone else will take the loan.
As far as i know banks only look at the risk they wont get the monney back, and not at how much the lender think he can make (though this is off course somewhat related to the change to get the monney back)

The other point.
This extra monney does in the end create something, it creates activity.
It creates new opportunities and it forces people to take action, because standing still is the same as walking backward.
People always want to make profit, and the extra monney creates an environment in wich this is possible, it makes it possible for people to start up businesses.
Off course this has to be managed well, we want to make sure that the business wich are started up and get financed are actually contributing to society as a whole, and not a huge dump
Monetary expansion is particulary effecitive when a new technology arives, like in the 90,s with the internet.
It is not so much effective when there is no new technology to devellop, and the risk then is that manny "worthless" businesses get started.

It will be near impossible to work with an economy based on the currency getting more and more buying power with the day (wich it will if no monney gets added, since the amount of goods is always rising)
Manny corporations would have to do business with a loss,(prices are always falling) and make a profit from their left over monney apreciating more in value, then the loss they made on their enterprise.
Still : doing nothing would be even better!


lOvOlUNiMEDiA
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States643 Posts
October 26 2012 16:55 GMT
#70
contraSol,

I don't think you address some critical points from my post, so will you clarify a few things?

1. In your [5] you define interest rates based on confidence of repayment. Interest rates do not only reflect confidence that the loan will be repayed. It also represents how much profit the lender believes he can make. In other words, the lender will always charge as much interest as possible (to maximize profit). The only thing that drives down the rate of interest is the threat of the borrower going somewhere else. My discussion of interest captures this feature because it shows how in a market where participants are more eager to save then to consume, then the rate of interest will go down because an increase in savings means (usually) an increase in loanable capital.

2. Please explain why the example I use of the flat screen factory is wrong.

As far as your discussion of whether or not the fed can create something "real", I cover this in detail in my original post. I am -not- arguing that the creation of money has no effect on the market. Of course it does. If the fed printed a trillion trillion dollars today it would have an effect on the market. My point is that it wouldn't change the underlying, foundational features of the economy (features like consumer time preference).

Whatever light you can shed on my points would be appreciated.
To say that I'm missing the point, you would first have to show that such work can have a point.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
October 26 2012 17:27 GMT
#71
On October 27 2012 01:43 contraSol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2012 01:14 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 27 2012 00:05 contraSol wrote:
(1) This may have been true when money was pegged to gold, and it really forms the basis to our current system, but since money is just special paper (and increasingly just 0s and 1s in an electronic account), it's based on purely on the confidence that a dollar today will be able to buy you something tomorrow. Who promises that? The governments of the country/monetary union that prints the paper, and by proxy, their central bank. So, yes, central banks can successfully create something that is traded for value.


Right, isn't that the point though? The Government creates fictitious capital by printing money. That fictitious capital gets traded as an exchange value. But it has yet to be realized as a value, that is, it has yet to produce something that would fulfill the expectations of future value created by a larger money supply. The government can create exchange values by printing money, but not values...


It can create exchange values, which are used by the private sector to create real value in terms of goods and services. Whether or not this is "fair" or optimal is a tangent to this discussion that I don't want to go down.

Saying that "the Fed doesn't create value by injecting liquidity into the economy" is accurate but myopic. The Fed injects liquidity so that the market can create that value.


Yes, but what if there's a deeper problem than a lack of liquidity? I never really hear people addressing that. Everybody seems to figure that if you just get the imaginary stuff working right the real stuff will work right a fortiori, and I tend to think it's the other way around.
shikata ga nai
mikedebo
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada4341 Posts
October 26 2012 18:01 GMT
#72
This is the best thread I've ever seen on TL. Thank you for raising this question, OP :D
I NEED A PHOTOSYNTHESIS! ||| 'airtoss' is an anagram of 'artosis' ||| SANGHOOOOOO ||| "No Korea? No problem. I have internet." -- Stardust
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
October 26 2012 18:04 GMT
#73
On October 27 2012 02:27 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2012 01:43 contraSol wrote:
On October 27 2012 01:14 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 27 2012 00:05 contraSol wrote:
(1) This may have been true when money was pegged to gold, and it really forms the basis to our current system, but since money is just special paper (and increasingly just 0s and 1s in an electronic account), it's based on purely on the confidence that a dollar today will be able to buy you something tomorrow. Who promises that? The governments of the country/monetary union that prints the paper, and by proxy, their central bank. So, yes, central banks can successfully create something that is traded for value.


Right, isn't that the point though? The Government creates fictitious capital by printing money. That fictitious capital gets traded as an exchange value. But it has yet to be realized as a value, that is, it has yet to produce something that would fulfill the expectations of future value created by a larger money supply. The government can create exchange values by printing money, but not values...


It can create exchange values, which are used by the private sector to create real value in terms of goods and services. Whether or not this is "fair" or optimal is a tangent to this discussion that I don't want to go down.

Saying that "the Fed doesn't create value by injecting liquidity into the economy" is accurate but myopic. The Fed injects liquidity so that the market can create that value.


Yes, but what if there's a deeper problem than a lack of liquidity? I never really hear people addressing that. Everybody seems to figure that if you just get the imaginary stuff working right the real stuff will work right a fortiori, and I tend to think it's the other way around.

A lack of money can be a problem. By making more money you take that problem off the table and hope that no other problems remain.

If more problems remain then you fall into a liquidity trap where more money does fuck all. Then the central bank does different stuff (QE, operation twist, etc.) to try to solve some of those issues (again, hopefully).
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
October 26 2012 18:09 GMT
#74
Ok. So in the financial community, what do people think about the idea that there is a problem besides something that can be fixed by straight-up monetary policy and, if so, what do they generally think that problem might be?

Because QE is just what you do when you can't lower the interest rate any more, right? I only kind of understand what that is.
shikata ga nai
KillerSOS
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States4207 Posts
October 26 2012 18:11 GMT
#75
On October 26 2012 12:58 RenSC2 wrote:
I don't work at any of the big banks. I would guess they are having a hard time finding good loans to place all their excess reserves into. That may be part of the reason why they got so aggressively into sub-prime lending in the first place. They kept holding onto more and more money for their clients, but couldn't find enough qualified borrowers to profit from. So they started adding in sub-prime borrowers. Now, they've gotten burned (and maybe regulated) into not lending out to sub-prime borrowers, but they still have a crap ton of people wanting the big banks to hold onto their money.

The banks have nowhere profitable to put that money, so the banks are just holding onto their reserves.


The tightened up their requirements to get a loan by an insane margin. It's actually impossible for pretty much anyone to get a loan other than a rich person.

Really quite sad.
contraSol
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States185 Posts
October 26 2012 18:19 GMT
#76
@MEDiA:
(1) You're distilling something complex into a solution that's a function of a single variable. In the micro terms, each loan is priced based on i) the Borrower's creditworthiness, ii) the market rate for the loan facility, and iii) the bank's cost of funds (which are increased when deposits (savings) increase). Yes, higher savings rates affect (ii), but there are other factors at play, even within that particular point. Yes, point (ii) is what drives down market rates.

(2) I never said that your flat screen example was wrong, though it makes quite a few (unstated) assumptions and seems contrived to demonize consumer culture. It seems to imply that QE benefits one industry at the expense of others, which is unfounded to my knowledge.

The use of consumer time preference in this example ignores the causal effects of the macro environment. Consumers tend to be more eager to [save/consume] as a result of their aggregate circumstances, fears, hopes, and desires. Your example seems to assume that consumers have a static time preference, or at the very least that the consumer time preference before QE was desirable. Is that really the case? QE is designed to change that time preference, however indirectly, by changing the market circumstance to which consumers are a party.

Also, the "trillion trillion" example is silly. Obviously, that would destroy confidence in the monetary system.
contraSol
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States185 Posts
October 26 2012 18:35 GMT
#77
On October 27 2012 03:09 sam!zdat wrote:
Ok. So in the financial community, what do people think about the idea that there is a problem besides something that can be fixed by straight-up monetary policy and, if so, what do they generally think that problem might be?

Because QE is just what you do when you can't lower the interest rate any more, right? I only kind of understand what that is.


Monetary policy is only part of the equation. We need improvements in fiscal policy that realign government spending and slowly and sustainably close deficits. We need logical structural reform of the financial sector with clear, coherent regulation.

Basically, QE is what the Fed does in the short term (when they won't, not can't lower rates anymore) in hopes that elected government will solve all of the structural problems for the long term. Monetary policy is more of a bandage than a real solution.
contraSol
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States185 Posts
October 26 2012 18:44 GMT
#78
On October 27 2012 02:27 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2012 01:43 contraSol wrote:
On October 27 2012 01:14 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 27 2012 00:05 contraSol wrote:
(1) This may have been true when money was pegged to gold, and it really forms the basis to our current system, but since money is just special paper (and increasingly just 0s and 1s in an electronic account), it's based on purely on the confidence that a dollar today will be able to buy you something tomorrow. Who promises that? The governments of the country/monetary union that prints the paper, and by proxy, their central bank. So, yes, central banks can successfully create something that is traded for value.


Right, isn't that the point though? The Government creates fictitious capital by printing money. That fictitious capital gets traded as an exchange value. But it has yet to be realized as a value, that is, it has yet to produce something that would fulfill the expectations of future value created by a larger money supply. The government can create exchange values by printing money, but not values...


It can create exchange values, which are used by the private sector to create real value in terms of goods and services. Whether or not this is "fair" or optimal is a tangent to this discussion that I don't want to go down.

Saying that "the Fed doesn't create value by injecting liquidity into the economy" is accurate but myopic. The Fed injects liquidity so that the market can create that value.


Yes, but what if there's a deeper problem than a lack of liquidity? I never really hear people addressing that. Everybody seems to figure that if you just get the imaginary stuff working right the real stuff will work right a fortiori, and I tend to think it's the other way around.


As I said in the post above, there are deeper structural problems. QE, interest rate manipulation, operation twist,etc. are the band aids that the fed is using to stop the hemorrhaging so that we're not all standing in soup lines before those problems are solved.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
October 26 2012 18:48 GMT
#79
Ok, well, that makes sense. back to trying to think about how to try to think about how to solve those problems, then, I suppose...
shikata ga nai
contraSol
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States185 Posts
October 26 2012 18:54 GMT
#80
On October 27 2012 03:01 mikedebo wrote:
This is the best thread I've ever seen on TL. Thank you for raising this question, OP :D


Agreed This thread is getting me through an absurdly boring seminar.
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