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United States41980 Posts
On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered.
A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring.
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Northern Ireland23800 Posts
On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring.
Why not a sizeable minority at least? I'm I know it exists to a degree, but would like to see something more substantial, for my own personal curiosity as to what degree
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United States41980 Posts
On August 25 2012 14:26 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Why not a sizeable minority at least? I'm I know it exists to a degree, but would like to see something more substantial, for my own personal curiosity as to what degree
Every time rape comes up on tl there are always plenty of people happy to explain why the woman should have to do more or avoid acting a certain way to avoid getting raped. I couldn't give you a percentage (maybe we could make an anonymous poll in the topic) but there are no shortage of them. And tl represents a younger and more exposed to liberal views demographic than the rest of the society.
Every now and then you get one of these
On April 05 2011 03:49 AlexDeLarge wrote:
P.S. Funny story. One night i had some girl alone over my place. She ended up smoking a lot of weed and passed out almost completely (was maybe 10% conscious).
then i started getting a little bit horny. So i said, ahh what the hell. Fucked the shit out of her while she was 90% unconscious.
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Northern Ireland23800 Posts
On August 25 2012 14:29 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Why not a sizeable minority at least? I'm I know it exists to a degree, but would like to see something more substantial, for my own personal curiosity as to what degree Every time rape comes up on tl there are always plenty of people happy to explain why the woman should have to do more or avoid acting a certain way to avoid getting raped. I couldn't give you a percentage (maybe we could make an anonymous poll in the topic) but there are no shortage of them. And tl represents a younger and more exposed to liberal views demographic than the rest of the society.
That would probably explain my relative lack of experience in such a mentality given the mindset of my friends/acquaintances.
That guy you posted sounds like a moron/sociopath. That said I do see girls frequently put themselves in danger with that kind of drinking/taking other substances, it's quite disturbing to see guys isolate them from their friends with the full intention of fucking them. I do my best to try and intervene but sometimes it's not possible.
I just don't really understand the mentality of a rapist at all, probably never will.
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On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring.
Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence.
If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported.
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United States41980 Posts
On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported.
Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc.
In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists.
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Northern Ireland23800 Posts
On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists.
No he hasn't really. People hold that view, some of them influential, but not a large amount proportionally, and the influential individuals may not use their influence to try to influence the views of others. You could clear that anti-semitism is a big part of our culture, or overt racism or any number of unsavory things. That something exists and has adherents is beyond dispute in those instances, but to claim they are culturally influential is overstating their impact.
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On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists.
Let me put it this way, do you have any citations showing the prevalence of rape culture, or is it simply anecodotal evidence based on sexist posts on TL? Any studies or numbers at all, or at least some sort of reasonably well-written article which persuasively argues its institutional or social prevalence?
Rape culture debunked:
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2012/02/if-we-lived-in-rape-culture-how-would.html
http://www.shrink4men.com/2011/09/14/our-so-called-rape-culture/
http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/mens-issues/rape-culture-female-scam-male-nightmare/
http://www.grahamtempleton.com/?p=477
http://jmnzz.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/again-with-the-rape-culture/
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United States41980 Posts
On August 25 2012 14:52 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists. Let me put it this way, do you have any citations showing the prevalence of rape culture, or is it simply anecodotal evidence based on sexist posts on TL? Any studies or numbers at all?
I'll go to my feminist sites and get mine and then you'll dismiss my sources and get yours and I'll dismiss your sources and we'll cycle around. At this point we're just doing this for the entertainment and education of potential observers.
Must we go to our respective blogs to gather ammunition that will never hit the mark?
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Northern Ireland23800 Posts
On August 25 2012 14:52 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists. Let me put it this way, do you have any citations showing the prevalence of rape culture, or is it simply anecodotal evidence based on sexist posts on TL? Any studies or numbers at all, or at least some sort of reasonably well-written article which persuasively argues its institutional or social prevalence? Rape culture debunked: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2012/02/if-we-lived-in-rape-culture-how-would.htmlhttp://www.shrink4men.com/2011/09/14/our-so-called-rape-culture/http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/mens-issues/rape-culture-female-scam-male-nightmare/
I'm not sure those conclusively debunk anything either though and lean on anecdotal or individual illustrative examples to make their point.
I also find it objectionable to an extent that this counter-response of 'oh we as males are so maligned' after feminism got similarly slated earlier on for doing the same thing (although perhaps not by you). Why can't we just fucking be civil people without indulging in this 'oh I'm so oppressed' pissing contest?
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On August 25 2012 14:57 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:52 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists. Let me put it this way, do you have any citations showing the prevalence of rape culture, or is it simply anecodotal evidence based on sexist posts on TL? Any studies or numbers at all, or at least some sort of reasonably well-written article which persuasively argues its institutional or social prevalence? Rape culture debunked: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2012/02/if-we-lived-in-rape-culture-how-would.htmlhttp://www.shrink4men.com/2011/09/14/our-so-called-rape-culture/http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/mens-issues/rape-culture-female-scam-male-nightmare/ I'm not sure those conclusively debunk anything either though and lean on anecdotal or individual illustrative examples to make their point.
You're right, but the burden of proof is on feminists to prove that there is a rape culture, not the other way around. On top of that, the logical arguments I've provided which suggest they are wrong only increase the necessity for some sort of evidence to substantiate their claims.
On August 25 2012 14:57 Wombat_NI wrote:
I also find it objectionable to an extent that this counter-response of 'oh we as males are so maligned' after feminism got similarly slated earlier on for doing the same thing (although perhaps not by you). Why can't we just fucking be civil people without indulging in this 'oh I'm so oppressed' pissing contest?
My personal intuition suggests that the nature of feminism and mens rights activism attracts some of the worst misandrists and misogynists, respectively, to their causes. It's similar to how a black rights group will also attract people who genuinely hate whites. On top of this, the nature of politics means that the most extreme people within any movement will be the loudest and the ones who wield the most power; it's no different from how political parties in most countries attract some of the worst possible types as supporters.
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United States41980 Posts
On August 25 2012 15:02 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 25 2012 14:52 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:
Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement.
I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
[quote]
[quote]
He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists. Let me put it this way, do you have any citations showing the prevalence of rape culture, or is it simply anecodotal evidence based on sexist posts on TL? Any studies or numbers at all, or at least some sort of reasonably well-written article which persuasively argues its institutional or social prevalence? Rape culture debunked: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2012/02/if-we-lived-in-rape-culture-how-would.htmlhttp://www.shrink4men.com/2011/09/14/our-so-called-rape-culture/http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/mens-issues/rape-culture-female-scam-male-nightmare/ I'm not sure those conclusively debunk anything either though and lean on anecdotal or individual illustrative examples to make their point. You're right, but the burden of proof is on feminists to prove that there is a rape culture, not the other way around. On top of that, the logical arguments I've provided which suggest they are wrong only increase the necessity for some sort of evidence to substantiate their claims. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:57 Wombat_NI wrote:
I also find it objectionable to an extent that this counter-response of 'oh we as males are so maligned' after feminism got similarly slated earlier on for doing the same thing (although perhaps not by you). Why can't we just fucking be civil people without indulging in this 'oh I'm so oppressed' pissing contest? My personal intuition suggests that the nature of feminism and mens rights activism attracts some of the worst misandrists and misogynists, respectively, to their causes. It's similar to how a black rights group will also attract people who genuinely hate whites. On top of this, the nature of politics means that the most extreme people within any movement will be the loudest and the ones who wield the most power; it's no different from how political parties in most countries attract some of the worst possible types as supporters.
I don't feel feminism and men's rights activism are mututally exclusive, the two are founded in the same basic principles of equal treatment and respect. I identify as a feminist because I believe that the causes espoused by feminism address serious deficiencies in modern society and because MRA groups are frankly far more unpleasant. Obviously both sides have their extremes but there are differences in degrees. Basically if a humanist accepts the feminist narrative of gender relations in society then the conclusion that something must be done to address these wrongs is natural. I don't agree with everything said by every feminist ever but I am convinced that there are serious problems within society which should be dealt with.
We agree on a number of issues and I've begun banning for glorying prison rape in response to your point made yesterday in this topic.
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On August 25 2012 14:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:52 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists. Let me put it this way, do you have any citations showing the prevalence of rape culture, or is it simply anecodotal evidence based on sexist posts on TL? Any studies or numbers at all? I'll go to my feminist sites and get mine and then you'll dismiss my sources and get yours and I'll dismiss your sources and we'll cycle around. At this point we're just doing this for the entertainment and education of potential observers. Must we go to our respective blogs to gather ammunition that will never hit the mark?
Can we all agree that we have the duty to fight sexual prejudice and "Rape Culture" because on a individualistic level it doesn't matter if the opinion is of the majority or the minority - it is still a dumb opinion (IE we should always fight racism because there is never a reason not to).
The issue is now on a broad public scale where inherent bias may affect cases inappropriately. For instance, I've heard of a number of times when a woman accuses a man of rape/sexual misconduct they throw it aside because they think the woman is too ugly to have this done to her. Or that she is using her sex to tarnish the man's reputation. What I want to know is if that bias does affect cases on the court level (The level where it matters). If you can prove that Kwark then I would agree with you that we have more than just a baseline responsibility of telling people they are stupid when they are sexist (from both sexes) and that we should actively reform public opinion.
(FYI, sorry if my post doesn't make any sense. Its getting really late over here)
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United States41980 Posts
On August 25 2012 14:52 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists. No he hasn't really. People hold that view, some of them influential, but not a large amount proportionally, and the influential individuals may not use their influence to try to influence the views of others. You could clear that anti-semitism is a big part of our culture, or overt racism or any number of unsavory things. That something exists and has adherents is beyond dispute in those instances, but to claim they are culturally influential is overstating their impact.
ICM interviewed a random sample of 1,095 adults aged 18+ by telephone.
They were given a series of scenarios and asked to indicate whether they believed a woman was totally responsible, partially responsible or not at all responsible for being raped.
If the woman was drunk, 4pc said she was totally responsible and 26pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman behaved in a flirtatious manner, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 28pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman failed to say "no" clearly to the man, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 29pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 20pc said she was partially responsible.
If it is known that the woman has many sexual partners, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 14pc said she was partially responsible.
If she is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, 5pc said she was totally responsible and 17pc said she was partially responsible.
Sourced from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369262/Women-blame-raped.html
There's a fairly solid 1/4 of respondents who think women are to blame for their rapes and 1/20 will consistently argue that the victim is entirely to blame for their rape if she flirts. 1/16 think the blame is entirely on a woman for being raped if she has been promiscuous. There's a sickness within society.
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On August 25 2012 15:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists. No he hasn't really. People hold that view, some of them influential, but not a large amount proportionally, and the influential individuals may not use their influence to try to influence the views of others. You could clear that anti-semitism is a big part of our culture, or overt racism or any number of unsavory things. That something exists and has adherents is beyond dispute in those instances, but to claim they are culturally influential is overstating their impact. Show nested quote +ICM interviewed a random sample of 1,095 adults aged 18+ by telephone.
They were given a series of scenarios and asked to indicate whether they believed a woman was totally responsible, partially responsible or not at all responsible for being raped.
If the woman was drunk, 4pc said she was totally responsible and 26pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman behaved in a flirtatious manner, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 28pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman failed to say "no" clearly to the man, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 29pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 20pc said she was partially responsible.
If it is known that the woman has many sexual partners, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 14pc said she was partially responsible.
If she is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, 5pc said she was totally responsible and 17pc said she was partially responsible. Sourced from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369262/Women-blame-raped.htmlThere's a fairly solid 1/4 of respondents who think women are to blame for their rapes and 1/20 will consistently argue that the victim is entirely to blame for their rape if she flirts. 1/16 think the blame is entirely on a woman for being raped if she has been promiscuous. There's a sickness within society.
quoteswithinquoteswithinquotes
I would advance the argument that the percentages above do not matter, and debunk the suggestion that "pervasiveness" precludes "rape culture."
The mere fact that we (as a people) tolerate such language makes us a rape culture. We dont tolerate when people say "its his fault cause hes a nigger," (thusly we aren't a racist culture) but we do tolerate people saying "Well if she didnt want to get raped, maybe she shouldnt have been so flirty." the fact that these views are still observed in the mainstream (our politicians espouse these views) makes us a de facto "rape culture."
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On August 25 2012 15:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists. No he hasn't really. People hold that view, some of them influential, but not a large amount proportionally, and the influential individuals may not use their influence to try to influence the views of others. You could clear that anti-semitism is a big part of our culture, or overt racism or any number of unsavory things. That something exists and has adherents is beyond dispute in those instances, but to claim they are culturally influential is overstating their impact. Show nested quote +ICM interviewed a random sample of 1,095 adults aged 18+ by telephone.
They were given a series of scenarios and asked to indicate whether they believed a woman was totally responsible, partially responsible or not at all responsible for being raped.
If the woman was drunk, 4pc said she was totally responsible and 26pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman behaved in a flirtatious manner, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 28pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman failed to say "no" clearly to the man, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 29pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 20pc said she was partially responsible.
If it is known that the woman has many sexual partners, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 14pc said she was partially responsible.
If she is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, 5pc said she was totally responsible and 17pc said she was partially responsible. Sourced from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369262/Women-blame-raped.htmlThere's a fairly solid 1/4 of respondents who think women are to blame for their rapes and 1/20 will consistently argue that the victim is entirely to blame for their rape if she flirts. 1/16 think the blame is entirely on a woman for being raped if she has been promiscuous. There's a sickness within society.
I'm confused by the "failed to say 'no' clearly to the man" part. It's hard to imagine how this could be rape in the first place. Aside from being actually unable to speak at all (and I doubt many people would deny rape if, for instance, the person is unconscious, or if they have a hand over their mouth) it's difficult to imagine a situation where someone can't say "no", and therefore it's hard to imagine the respective responsibilities. Indeed, if someone has no reason to believe they are committing rape, then no rape has occurred, at least legally. This is really a far more difficult topic to get into than such simplistic questions allow.
Other than that, I'd be interested in seeing the percentages of whether, for instance, someone who gets murdered while walking alone in a dangerous area, is seen as partially being responsible.
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United States41980 Posts
On August 25 2012 16:02 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 15:40 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:
Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement.
I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
[quote]
[quote]
He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists. No he hasn't really. People hold that view, some of them influential, but not a large amount proportionally, and the influential individuals may not use their influence to try to influence the views of others. You could clear that anti-semitism is a big part of our culture, or overt racism or any number of unsavory things. That something exists and has adherents is beyond dispute in those instances, but to claim they are culturally influential is overstating their impact. ICM interviewed a random sample of 1,095 adults aged 18+ by telephone.
They were given a series of scenarios and asked to indicate whether they believed a woman was totally responsible, partially responsible or not at all responsible for being raped.
If the woman was drunk, 4pc said she was totally responsible and 26pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman behaved in a flirtatious manner, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 28pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman failed to say "no" clearly to the man, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 29pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 20pc said she was partially responsible.
If it is known that the woman has many sexual partners, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 14pc said she was partially responsible.
If she is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, 5pc said she was totally responsible and 17pc said she was partially responsible. Sourced from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369262/Women-blame-raped.htmlThere's a fairly solid 1/4 of respondents who think women are to blame for their rapes and 1/20 will consistently argue that the victim is entirely to blame for their rape if she flirts. 1/16 think the blame is entirely on a woman for being raped if she has been promiscuous. There's a sickness within society. I'm confused by the "failed to say 'no' clearly to the man" part. It's hard to imagine how this could be rape in the first place. Aside from being actually unable to speak at all (and I doubt many people would deny rape if, for instance, the person is unconscious, or if they have a hand over their mouth) it's difficult to imagine a situation where someone can't say "no", and therefore it's hard to imagine the respective responsibilities. Indeed, if someone has no reason to believe they are committing rape, then no rape has occurred, at least legally. This is really a far more difficult topic to get into than such simplistic questions allow. Other than that, I'd be interested in seeing the percentages of whether, for instance, someone who gets murdered while walking alone in a dangerous area, is seen as partially being responsible.
I believe by clearly they mean "mixed signals" and the like where the woman says stop but she doesn't start screaming when you don't stop. Anything short of a clear and unambiguous "I do not consent to this, stop raping me".
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On August 25 2012 16:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 16:02 FuzzyJAM wrote:On August 25 2012 15:40 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:
[quote]
I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case.
We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists. No he hasn't really. People hold that view, some of them influential, but not a large amount proportionally, and the influential individuals may not use their influence to try to influence the views of others. You could clear that anti-semitism is a big part of our culture, or overt racism or any number of unsavory things. That something exists and has adherents is beyond dispute in those instances, but to claim they are culturally influential is overstating their impact. ICM interviewed a random sample of 1,095 adults aged 18+ by telephone.
They were given a series of scenarios and asked to indicate whether they believed a woman was totally responsible, partially responsible or not at all responsible for being raped.
If the woman was drunk, 4pc said she was totally responsible and 26pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman behaved in a flirtatious manner, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 28pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman failed to say "no" clearly to the man, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 29pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 20pc said she was partially responsible.
If it is known that the woman has many sexual partners, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 14pc said she was partially responsible.
If she is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, 5pc said she was totally responsible and 17pc said she was partially responsible. Sourced from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369262/Women-blame-raped.htmlThere's a fairly solid 1/4 of respondents who think women are to blame for their rapes and 1/20 will consistently argue that the victim is entirely to blame for their rape if she flirts. 1/16 think the blame is entirely on a woman for being raped if she has been promiscuous. There's a sickness within society. I'm confused by the "failed to say 'no' clearly to the man" part. It's hard to imagine how this could be rape in the first place. Aside from being actually unable to speak at all (and I doubt many people would deny rape if, for instance, the person is unconscious, or if they have a hand over their mouth) it's difficult to imagine a situation where someone can't say "no", and therefore it's hard to imagine the respective responsibilities. Indeed, if someone has no reason to believe they are committing rape, then no rape has occurred, at least legally. This is really a far more difficult topic to get into than such simplistic questions allow. Other than that, I'd be interested in seeing the percentages of whether, for instance, someone who gets murdered while walking alone in a dangerous area, is seen as partially being responsible. I believe by clearly they mean "mixed signals" and the like where the woman says stop but she doesn't start screaming when you don't stop. Anything short of a clear and unambiguous "I do not consent to this, stop raping me".
Oh. Well I took it to mean simply not saying anything. In my understanding of the question, I'd say there was no rape. In yours, there clearly is, and the woman has no responsibility. I have no idea what most people understand by the question.
This really just shows how meaningless the results are here, especially considering no comparable was given (e.g. as I said, getting murdered in a dangerous area could be used as a control for "rape culture" vs. "general ideas of personal responsibility"). Questions need to be vastly more clear in an area which is littered with misconceptions in order to give meaningful data on people's views.
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United States41980 Posts
You want unambiguous questions, try the following.
+ Show Spoiler +
(1) Have you ever been in a situation where you tried, but for various reasons did not succeed, in having sexual intercourse with an adult by using or threatening to use physical force (twisting their arm, holding them down, etc.) if they did not cooperate?
(2) Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances (e.g., removing their clothes)?
(3) Have you ever had sexual intercourse with an adult when they didn’t want to because you used or threatened to use physical force (twisting their arm; holding them down, etc.) if they didn’t cooperate?
(4) Have you ever had oral sex with an adult when they didn’t want to because you used or threatened to use physical force (twisting their arm; holding them down, etc.) if they didn’t cooperate?
Lisak & Miller at 77-78.]
Those may not cover every scenario but they're all fairly clear examples of rape or attempted rape and nobody, when posed with those questions, could doubt what was being asked of them. Right?
An ethnically diverse group of 1882 college students, ranging in age from 18 to 71 with a median age of 26.5 was asked those questions. 120 said yes they had.
Are those clear enough for you?
Source http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
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On August 25 2012 15:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 14:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 25 2012 14:48 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:40 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 14:12 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 14:04 sunprince wrote:On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 13:16 sunprince wrote:On August 24 2012 23:33 KwarK wrote:Regarding Sunprince's argument that rape culture is a myth and that men today aren't raised with a massive sense of entitlement. I have actually gotten a series of PM from IceThorn who was originally banned for comparing raping a woman who the man thinks is teasing him with someone that teases a guy starving to death of food and gets it stolen.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it.
Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
PM explaining why the above wasn't offensive:
KwarK that was not what i wrote at all. I wrote that if a woman if a woman literally wanted to stop after forplay, then the man could hardly be blamed if he pushed the issue (by raping her). He explains that I misunderstood his point and he was trying to say that nobody ever would blame a man for ignoring a no if he was turned on because he thought he was getting sex. That obviously you can't just go out and rape someone but if you're really turned on and she made you turned on then you're entitled to her body and that's her fault and you, as the man, get to judge this. That being a man is like starving to death and denying a man sex is akin to teasing someone dying of starvation with food. These people legitimately exist and they don't even get that there's something off about their views. Male entitlement is a real thing. I don't think anyone disagrees that male entitlement is a real thing, nor do we disagree that victim blaming happens. The issue is that feminists and their white knight supporters think that these and similar things happen all the time, but the statistical data, simple logical reasoning, and any familiarity at all with modern culture explains why this is not the case. We have murderers out there too, yet no one takes the idea that we have some sort of "murder culture" seriously, and for good reason. The "nobody says there is a murder culture" argument misses the point. It's not that rape happens, like murder. It's that a lot of members of society will still happily turn around and say "boys will be boys", an apologistic assumption that rape is simply a natural result of gender relations and that women are overreacting, in response to it. This is an assumption, one that is not verified by any evidence. Show me evidence that a majority of society are rape apologists, and then you have a legitimate argument. In order for a culture to exist, this would have to be prevalent, but anyone familiar with first-world culture would tell you that most people consider rape the most heinous of crimes. On August 25 2012 13:58 KwarK wrote:
It doesn't sum up rape culture but it's a good example of the mentality behind it in my opinion. I can think of no comparable expression regarding murder, murder apologism and downplaying the impact of murder have never been pervasive in the same way. If you buy into loaded feminists statistics regarding rape, then of course legitimate statistics from criminological sources will appear to be downplaying murder. As for apologism, you can see a similar amount of murder "victim blaming" every time a murder happens and people give tips for how to avoid being murdered. A majority is not required for my definition of rape culture. Demanding I provide evidence of a majority in order to validate my belief is a red herring. Feminists define rape culture as a culture in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media, normalize/excuse/tolerate/condone sexual violence. If you cannot show that such atttitudes are a majority, then you would at least have to show that they are a substantial minority; otherwise, the notion of prevalence is not supported. Words define prevalent as widespread or powerful. I'm sure you'll agree that there are powerful individuals with idiotic views regarding rape, as for widespread, you'll get people signing on with victim blaming from all walks of life etc. In your attempt to force a strict adherence to the definition you've argued that it exists. No he hasn't really. People hold that view, some of them influential, but not a large amount proportionally, and the influential individuals may not use their influence to try to influence the views of others. You could clear that anti-semitism is a big part of our culture, or overt racism or any number of unsavory things. That something exists and has adherents is beyond dispute in those instances, but to claim they are culturally influential is overstating their impact. Show nested quote +ICM interviewed a random sample of 1,095 adults aged 18+ by telephone.
They were given a series of scenarios and asked to indicate whether they believed a woman was totally responsible, partially responsible or not at all responsible for being raped.
If the woman was drunk, 4pc said she was totally responsible and 26pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman behaved in a flirtatious manner, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 28pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman failed to say "no" clearly to the man, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 29pc said she was partially responsible.
If the woman was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 20pc said she was partially responsible.
If it is known that the woman has many sexual partners, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 14pc said she was partially responsible.
If she is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, 5pc said she was totally responsible and 17pc said she was partially responsible. Sourced from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369262/Women-blame-raped.htmlThere's a fairly solid 1/4 of respondents who think women are to blame for their rapes and 1/20 will consistently argue that the victim is entirely to blame for their rape if she flirts. 1/16 think the blame is entirely on a woman for being raped if she has been promiscuous. There's a sickness within society.
You still haven't proved that these attitudes are culturally influential or persuasive, or that such blame games are peculiar to rape cases with a female victim (which is, of course, the only gender included in the poll).
The crazy part is that even the study you cited (Well, you cited a dailymail news blurb on the study) concludes that, "overall these results suggest that people generally feel a woman’s behaviour does not make them responsible for being raped." It's a study funded by Amnesty International as part of their "Stop Violence Against Women" campaign, and it still concluded that for the most part, no, people do not blame women for being rape victims.
Of course certain "sections of the population," according to the report, fall into this lamentable habit. The two social groups they point out as especially likely are the elderly and the socially disadvantaged, two demographics fabled for their bottomless propensity for warm fellow-feelings.
So anyway, according to your study, that's where the battles against rape culture must be waged, in nursing homes and foodstamp lines. Mount up and charge!
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