EPTI dont really see myself wanting to go into a class action lawsuit against valve. I only use it for dota 2(dont buy anything there) and orange box.
Steam Blocks Class Action Lawsuits with ToS Change - Page 5
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dartoo
India2889 Posts
I dont really see myself wanting to go into a class action lawsuit against valve. I only use it for dota 2(dont buy anything there) and orange box. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 05 2012 17:32 Tyree wrote: Somebody asked: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YM7Hq.png) Aka those games you "own" are there for rent, as i and many have always suspected. Its strange that despite having similar clauses, you can still opt out of any updates on your PS3 and Xbox 360 and still be able to re download and play your games. I mean this is Sony and Microsoft we are talking about, greedy companies that are "out of touch" with what gamers want, yet offer a far more flexible service than the so called generous Valve who understand our supposed needs I recently re downloaded UFC 2009 on my 360, i dont even have Xbox Gold and have not had it for the past 5 years. Yet i was still easily able to re download my old purchase and play it. And i could do so if i had another 360 aswell Bizarro world where Microsoft of all companies does digital far better than Valve, its suppose to be the opposite way around. You do realize that every time you buy a game you're buying a license for the game, even if it's a hard copy. Whenever you purchase a game you're actually acquiring a license that enables you to use the software. You don't actually "own" the game you buy. To draw an analogy to your PS3 and Xbox360 example, a more apt comparison would be if you decided to trash your PS3 and Xbox 360 but have an emulator and you ask Sony/Microsoft if they would give you the data files for the game so you can play on an emulator. The answer will almost always be no. On August 05 2012 18:05 dartoo wrote: Is it actually possible to put a clause that prevents a group of people from claiming justice? that is really weird, isnt that a violation of basic rights? Actually a class action law suit is just a group of people claiming something right? I dont really see myself wanting to go into a class action lawsuit against valve. I only use it for dota 2(dont buy anything there) and orange box. A class action lawsuit is when a group of people (a class) bring a lawsuit against a company suing for damages in (generally) a broader sense. If the class wins the lawsuit, they usually charge the company a large amount of money for damages. These lawsuits can and usually will be something like say a security leak at Valve compromises a bunch of cc numbers. What makes class action lawsuits different than a regular lawsuit is that the money from the damages assuming the lawsuit is won, is split among every member of the class, even if you had no part in the lawsuit itself. As long as you fit into the definition of the class, you get something. HOWEVER, class action lawsuits are generally not all that great for most people since a LOT of the money won from the lawsuit ends up going to the lawyers. Then, in order to get your share of the damages, you occasionally have to jump through a bunch of hoops. When you do get the money, it's often mere pennies. If shit happens, you're usually better off suing them individually. Class action lawsuits are usually better for big big big cases that have millions to billions of dollars on the line and/or have some extremely hot controversial topic. That said, they can be helpful for allowing people with little money to get something out of a bad situation where they wouldn't have seen any compensation otherwise. | ||
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skipgamer
Australia701 Posts
On August 05 2012 17:32 Tyree wrote: Somebody asked: Aka those games you "own" are there for rent, as i and many have always suspected. Its strange that despite having similar clauses, you can still opt out of any updates on your PS3 and Xbox 360 and still be able to re download and play your games. I mean this is Sony and Microsoft we are talking about, greedy companies that are "out of touch" with what gamers want, yet offer a far more flexible service than the so called generous Valve who understand our supposed needs I recently re downloaded UFC 2009 on my 360, i dont even have Xbox Gold and have not had it for the past 5 years. Yet i was still easily able to re download my old purchase and play it. And i could do so if i had another 360 aswell Bizarro world where Microsoft of all companies does digital far better than Valve, its suppose to be the opposite way around. What are you talking about? the games aren't for rent, you purchase them, and they are bound to your account. If your account gets suspended for whatever reason or you cancel it, of course you can't access them. There is literally no way to find out which games you own if you cancel your account. I really don't know what you expect. As for the comparison to Microsoft and Sony, they also have updated their agreements for their online services to prevent class action suits. It was even mentioned in the link in the OP! So yes, you can download your UFC, but you would have also had to agree to Microsofts updated TOS also... You probably just didn't even realise it. So I really have no idea wtf you are talking about... I don't think you do either. Bizarro world where keyboard-warriors run to internet forums to hang shit on companies that have their best interests at heart while championing shitty, backwardly-managed corporations... It's supposed to be the other way round. (also comparing a PC game distribution platform, to a console-only online service is just about heresy in its own right.) | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On August 02 2012 08:04 gubbstrut wrote: Agree to terms online by checking a box is about as binding as signing a document without having to show ID, theirs no proof its something you did. They assume that only you log on with your account , which should be the case . | ||
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Tyree
1508 Posts
What are you talking about? the games aren't for rent, you purchase them, and they are bound to your account. If your account gets suspended for whatever reason or you cancel it, of course you can't access them. There is literally no way to find out which games you own if you cancel your account. I really don't know what you expect. I expect to own these games, as i purchased them. Is that too much to ask? As for the comparison to Microsoft and Sony, they also have updated their agreements for their online services to prevent class action suits. It was even mentioned in the link in the OP! So yes, you can download your UFC, but you would have also had to agree to Microsofts updated TOS also... You probably just didn't even realise it. No i wouldnt have to agree with Microsofts ToS, i can decline to update my Xbox 360 from 2010 when i bought that game, i can decline any update, i can simply plug in my cable, download the game, and go offline and play the game all i want. Sounds like you know little of Xbox Live So I really have no idea wtf you are talking about... I don't think you do either. Uh huh. You just showed you didnt know how Xbox Live worked, its not like Steam, you go into your download history and download whatever you bought, regardless of firmware you are on. Bizarro world where keyboard-warriors run to internet forums to hang shit on companies that have their best interests at heart while championing shitty, backwardly-managed corporations... It's supposed to be the other way round. No need to be condescending, you sound like a corporate Valve fanboy who thinks Valve is a divine company that will give you anything you want. Where i outlined exactly how they are forcing your hand to agree to their ToS or they will take your supposed games, as hostage. (also comparing a PC game distribution platform, to a console-only online service is just about heresy in its own right.) Its heresy? Really? You used that word? It is digital distribution, licenses are bougth to these games. The difference is that one company forces you to agree to a ToS and follow in what they want, otherwise your games that you bought under a different ToS and agreement is no longer valid. You are incapable of playing your games. Steam forces you into agreements, and saying no means no access to your games. Services like Live, PSN and especially GOG arent like this at all Infact GOG allows you to download the games and put it on a disc/harddrive/external harddrive til the end of time if i so want to. That is ownership. Everything you wrote is either wrong or absolute drivel, mostly wrong tough. I have no interest in arguing this with Valve fanatics I'm pretty sure the doctrine of equitable unconscionability comes into play here. You agreed to a contract for services and paid money and then the other side unilaterally changed the terms of the contract with no remedy on your end. | ||
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MisterD
Germany1338 Posts
On August 05 2012 18:18 skipgamer wrote: What are you talking about? the games aren't for rent, you purchase them, and they are bound to your account. If your account gets suspended for whatever reason or you cancel it, of course you can't access them. There is literally no way to find out which games you own if you cancel your account. I really don't know what you expect. As for the comparison to Microsoft and Sony, they also have updated their agreements for their online services to prevent class action suits. It was even mentioned in the link in the OP! So yes, you can download your UFC, but you would have also had to agree to Microsofts updated TOS also... You probably just didn't even realise it. So I really have no idea wtf you are talking about... I don't think you do either. Bizarro world where keyboard-warriors run to internet forums to hang shit on companies that have their best interests at heart while championing shitty, backwardly-managed corporations... It's supposed to be the other way round. (also comparing a PC game distribution platform, to a console-only online service is just about heresy in its own right.) the point is not that he wants to be able to play games from a canceled account, the point is he wants to "freeze" the status quo. But valve is basically forcing him to enter a new contract to keep being able to play. They *could* in theory implement a feature that the account gets frozen, as in no more updates of games or steam platform, no longer allowed to purchase anything, only download install and run games in the accounts current state, and users doing this would not automatically be subjected to the new ToS. But they don't, and force people to sign whatever they decide to put in the ToS unless they want to lose dozens of game licenses. Think about it, that kind of means it the ToS contents are actually completely pointless: Whatever you don't sign now, the more games you purchase the more you are hurt if you don't agree to whatever they decide to put in later, to which you did not have to agree the first time. It's basically a free ticket to force you into any contract they want. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
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fuzzy_panda
New Zealand1681 Posts
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skipgamer
Australia701 Posts
On August 05 2012 18:47 Tyree wrote: I expect to own these games, as i purchased them. Is that too much to ask? How do you Expect to own them when there would be nothing linking you to them. Your account is what allows Steam to know what games you own... Do you expect them to bind to IP or CPU ID or something? On August 05 2012 18:47 Tyree wrote: No i wouldnt have to agree with Microsofts ToS, i can decline to update my Xbox 360 from 2010 when i bought that game, i can decline any update, i can simply plug in my cable, download the game, and go offline and play the game all i want. Sounds like you know little of Xbox Live Updating your firmware has nothing to do with agreeing to an updated ToS... I'm certain you have agreed to it, it probably popped up when you connected to live and you forgot about it. Also, I can decline to update my pc from 2010 when I bought any number of steam games, I can go offline, play the game all I want... The features are the same and have nothing to with what we are talking about (the updated ToS)... On August 05 2012 18:47 Tyree wrote: Uh huh. You just showed you didnt know how Xbox Live worked, its not like Steam, you go into your download history and download whatever you bought, regardless of firmware you are on. I have no idea how Xbox live works? what the fuck are you smoking? you can do the exact same thing on steam... you're tripping man... If you're trying to imply you can download games on xbox live without agreeing to their updated (non opt-out) policy, then you are flat out bullshitting. On August 05 2012 18:47 Tyree wrote: No need to be condescending, you sound like a corporate Valve fanboy who thinks Valve is a divine company that will give you anything you want. Where i outlined exactly how they are forcing your hand to agree to their ToS or they will take your supposed games, as hostage. Its heresy? Really? You used that word? It is digital distribution, licenses are bougth to these games. The difference is that one company forces you to agree to a ToS and follow in what they want, otherwise your games that you bought under a different ToS and agreement is no longer valid. You are incapable of playing your games. Steam forces you into agreements, and saying no means no access to your games. Services like Live, PSN and especially GOG arent like this at all Infact GOG allows you to download the games and put it on a disc/harddrive/external harddrive til the end of time if i so want to. That is ownership. Everything you wrote is either wrong or absolute drivel, mostly wrong tough. .... Live and PSN have both had non-ignorable ToS updates which you are required to accept which have had similar ramifications to this Steam update... I still don't know why you think you will be able to access your content on Live or PSN without your accounts for these services, which you would not have if you have not agreed to the updated ToS... Your only half-decent point is with GoG, but even then, the majority of games there are (or at least were when the service launched) old games, hence the title, what would have in the past been referred to as Abondonware... GoG provides a way to access these games, of course they will provide full copies of them because they are losing nothing if they don't. They would be on torrent sites anyway, unlike the majority of recent AAA titles which the publishers want to ensure are purchased by users and not just shared... Steam DRM (although not bulletproof) provides these publishers with a relatively safe place to sell their games. On August 05 2012 18:47 Tyree wrote: I'm pretty sure the doctrine of equitable unconscionability comes into play here. You agreed to a contract for services and paid money and then the other side unilaterally changed the terms of the contract with no remedy on your end. Almost all ToS have clauses which allow them to change at any time, without notifying you... It's bullshit, yes... But its a part of life in this digital age, suck it up... | ||
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Tom Cruise
Denmark482 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On August 05 2012 19:11 skipgamer wrote: How do you Expect to own them when there would be nothing linking you to them. Your account is what allows Steam to know what games you own... Do you expect them to bind to IP or CPU ID or something? Updating your firmware has nothing to do with agreeing to an updated ToS... I'm certain you have agreed to it, it probably popped up when you connected to live and you forgot about it. Also, I can decline to update my pc from 2010 when I bought any number of steam games, I can go offline, play the game all I want... The features are the same and have nothing to with what we are talking about (the updated ToS)... I have no idea how Xbox live works? what the fuck are you smoking? you can do the exact same thing on steam... you're tripping man... If you're trying to imply you can download games on xbox live without agreeing to their updated (non opt-out) policy, then you are flat out bullshitting. .... Live and PSN have both had non-ignorable ToS updates which you are required to accept which have had similar ramifications to this Steam update... I still don't know why you think you will be able to access your content on Live or PSN without your accounts for these services, which you would not have if you have not agreed to the updated ToS... Your only half-decent point is with GoG, but even then, the majority of games there are (or at least were when the service launched) old games, hence the title, what would have in the past been referred to as Abondonware... GoG provides a way to access these games, of course they will provide full copies of them because they are losing nothing if they don't. They would be on torrent sites anyway, unlike the majority of recent AAA titles which the publishers want to ensure are purchased by users and not just shared... Steam DRM (although not bulletproof) provides these publishers with a relatively safe place to sell their games. Almost all ToS have clauses which allow them to change at any time, without notifying you... It's bullshit, yes... But its a part of life in this digital age, suck it up... Just because a ToS has something doesn't mean it's legal. For example this class action lawsuit thingy seems illegal / unbinding to me with my limited understanding of the law. That's like having a ToS "We aren't responsible for your credit card information and you hereby forfeit your rights to sue us for your credit card being used" and then when you buy something with your credit card the company steals your info and empties your account. You definitely could sue them for that even with the ToS. On August 05 2012 19:23 Tom Cruise wrote: do you guys even know what a license is? when u buy a game on steam, u buy a license. that license says u do not own the game. license = permission. Btw if you don't accept the new ToS you are supposed to have the right to have your money back for all the games you've bought | ||
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Tom Cruise
Denmark482 Posts
Btw if you don't accept the new ToS you are supposed to have the right to have your money back for all the games you've bought quote the TOS where it says that plz. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
On August 05 2012 19:37 Shikyo wrote: Just because a ToS has something doesn't mean it's legal. For example this class action lawsuit thingy seems illegal / unbinding to me with my limited understanding of the law. That's like having a ToS "We aren't responsible for your credit card information and you hereby forfeit your rights to sue us for your credit card being used" and then when you buy something with your credit card the company steals your info and empties your account. You definitely could sue them for that even with the ToS. Btw if you don't accept the new ToS you are supposed to have the right to have your money back for all the games you've bought You are being missinformed. A class action lawsuit is not the same as a normal lawsuit. If you scroll up its been explained to you in this very page. You can still sue them, just not with a deeply flawed class action one. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
On August 05 2012 19:23 Tom Cruise wrote: do you guys even know what a license is? when u buy a game on steam, u buy a license. that license says u do not own the game. license = permission. While somewhat broken language, yes, this is correct. Even when you buy a hardcopy of a game, you don't buy the game, you buy a license to play it. Hence why there is a cd key involved, which can be banned. The only difference is that most games can not be banned in singleplayer mode unless some kind of drm is involved. But that is what the steam service is: a big awesome drm that gives you amazing games for cheap and sometimes free. They have the ability to ban you licences, even for singleplayer. They have the legal rights to change the ToS at any time (although it has to be withing reason. They can not change it to "and now you have to give us all ur money lolz!"), and they have the legal rights to ban class action lawsuits, but not regular lawsuits. Which is good for Valve and good for the costumers. I see no reason why anyone would be so upset about this that they refuse to accept and leave out their accounts with thousands of dollars of games on them. | ||
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noobcakes
United States526 Posts
On August 02 2012 16:34 Filter wrote: Class action lawsuits are useless 99% of the time, and they are just for lawyers to get rich. Remember a Lawyer get a 10-25% cut of $10/person lawsuit that involves 100,000,000 people is crazy. The Lawyer walks away with 25mil, and everybody else gets 10 bucks. Why do you think there are class action lawsuits against Tobacco companies for billions of dollars all the time? Are these numbers with proof or are you just guesstimating? | ||
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