EPTSteam Blocks Class Action Lawsuits with ToS Change - Page 4
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Jonoman92
United States9110 Posts
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HoMM
Estonia636 Posts
On August 02 2012 19:19 Jonoman92 wrote: Poll needs an "I don't know option" because I'm willing to bet that's what a decent amount of people's actual answer should be, including myself. If you don't know, then you have the option to not vote... | ||
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whiteguycash
United States476 Posts
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Bayyne
United States1967 Posts
On August 02 2012 20:38 whiteguycash wrote: ToS agreements are not enforceable in a court, law or civil. There are 2 types of court: civil and criminal. | ||
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NekoFlandre
United States497 Posts
By locking yourself into a 'Steam' usage and therefore waiving class action abilities as a customer means, you basicaly say. They can shut down a game distribution / electronic activation authentication with no notice (as many companies have / will do f2p mmo's for example). But, Steam is just an electronic distributor of games you can purchase from a retail store and then have a physical hard copy. If Steam were to for example, offer such a service as to send you a full function copy of the game itself on dvd / blu-ray disk on demand that will work with your steam key which you purchased. Honestly? I understand why they would do this, and I also understand why people would use the service, sadly what I cannot understand is the stupidy some people put and the faith they have in companies that would do such a thing to their clientel. For whatever reason when I got to Steam today and saw this, I was bored enough and contacted a lawyer. Discussed the situation with them and came to the conclusion that. 1) Steam is basically stealing from their customers selling a 'lisenced' copy of the game via electronic download and a key. 2) Not offering said content in a hard copy. 3) Being able to shut down said services at whim (or if it isn't making enough money etc.) with out option of refund and or hard copy of a game to be played with out their services running. So, why really do we all use steam? It's convienant and that is about all it comes down to. Have I purchased things from them? Yes, will I in the future? No; as the fundemental aspect of rights comes in play here. The reason we have class action law suits is to protect the consumers. Waiving a right that was established is simply idoitcy on a grand scale (again, this mainly pretains to the USA of which I live) Also, if you agree to waiving a right; same as miranda rights you have a choice to opt out of them. By agreeing to the clause in the new ToS you agree to not join a class action lawsuit. If you do join one against Vaule, you are breaching a contract at that point and they will have the right to sue you, close your accounts, etc. Yes, it is enforceable in a court of law. That is why companies have EULA and ToS. If you agree, you are abiding by their contractual obigations even if you are unaware of what you are agreeing to. | ||
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
I don't give a fuck and clicked continue. Irresponsible of me? Maybe. Will it ever bother me? I highly doubt it. | ||
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Nizaris
Belgium2230 Posts
On August 02 2012 21:02 FliedLice wrote: Hobby lawyers unite and tell me how this is or isn't enforcable ten times per page! I don't give a fuck and clicked continue. Irresponsible of me? Maybe. Will it ever bother me? I highly doubt it. not irresponsible since you don't live in the US. Is there even such a thing as class action lawsuits in Europe? | ||
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
On August 02 2012 08:23 Integra wrote: Legal rights being made illegal through a digital contract. I think you actually could sue valve for this. It's also possible to argue that the realm of informed consent was not met, but that's another debate for another day  | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On August 02 2012 18:18 Yonnua wrote: Too bad you signed a contract saying it's under the jurisdiction of the state of washington and not Canada. I dont know about Canadian law, but this is i.e. completely irrelevant in Germany. German law is always applicable in those cases. source. Origin case | ||
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Nausea
Sweden807 Posts
And now i have to figure out if the 4 last numbers on the end of my card is the same as my old card i had 4 years ago. Fuck em. | ||
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Crissaegrim
2947 Posts
I think this issue is being over-estimated. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8280 Posts
On August 02 2012 21:20 Nausea wrote: Can´t say I´m that much surprised by this. I have a big problem with the steam service. I had not used steam for about 4 years, and about a week ago i was going to log in and was greeted by a message saying that my account had been suspended. No reason what so ever given, so I contacted their support and they want me to prove that the games on my account belong to me by sending in credit card information. I see a big problem with this since they don´t explain why my account was suspended in the first place, so I see no reason why i should have to prove that the games are mine. The account was not hacked, I only had one game on the account and the status of last login is when i was logged in few years ago. And now i have to figure out if the 4 last numbers on the end of my card is the same as my old card i had 4 years ago. Fuck em. If you only have one game on it that you have not played in 4 years, then its not really a loss for you. Besides, steam costumer service are usualyl very reasonable if you explain the situation (ie: I don't have my old credit card anymore, here is my new one. Also I will buy lots more games if you let me log on, etc). You could make an argument that Steams services are detrimental to the industry as a whole because no one can compete with them. but I don't think any argument can be made that the service is bad... Well, I guess you could compare it to drm, but the amount of cheap and free games at your fingertips more than makes up for that. If it didn't, Valve wouldn't be swimming in an ocean of pure money right now. | ||
Nyovne
Netherlands19141 Posts
On August 02 2012 20:38 whiteguycash wrote: ToS agreements are not enforceable in a court, law or civil. Absolute flat out nonsense. The part after the comma just illustrates your expertise on the matter. On August 02 2012 21:15 Zocat wrote: I dont know about Canadian law, but this is i.e. completely irrelevant in Germany. German law is always applicable in those cases. source. Origin case Correct, and is applicable to the entirety of mainland Europe. Excellent and actual case example. On August 02 2012 16:41 Bayyne wrote: Binding arbitration agreements are very common. You've all probably signed one when visiting a doctor. These kind of agreements only tend to hold up in the EU when they are a seperate and explicite agreement. If they are a clause in a larger agreement, especially boiler plate ones they are summilarly dismissed by courts in at least 4 countries in western europe. Since this line of reasoning is based on EU regulation this probably applies in the whole of EU, except perhaps the UK (EUs common law black sheep). In the US they are valid (such as the ones in Blizzards ToSToU). On August 02 2012 18:18 Yonnua wrote: Too bad you signed a contract saying it's under the jurisdiction of the state of washington and not Canada. Too bad most people don't live in the US and are protected by binding clauses in their national law which entails that as far as people acted in the capacity of a consumer their national (and EU in case of EU) laws and regulations (or part thereof) are always applicable and the national judges will always have jurisdiction in the matter. Aka if I have an issue with Valve of Blizzard Entertainment as a gamer/consumer I can and will bring the case before a Dutch court on the base of Dutch law + the contract in question and will seek (and most likely succeed) in destroying the relevant clauses violating my rights as a European consumer. No forum clause will protect against this. The only real problem here is getting your judgement enforced in the US. Albeit not impossible, it will prove challenging and mostly too costly to prove feasible for consumers as legal fees/costs in the US are astronimical and will amount to impossible costs for consumers while being peanuts for large companies just trying to stall the proceedings until the claimant fails to be able to continue due to financial reasons. Being right and getting your right are two entirely different things in todays legal reality. It's been clearly visible the last decade that large software companies, gaming or otherwise, have been moving towards more specific agreements tailored towards consumers from specific parts of the world. As well they should. Luckily for most consumers in this world they do not live in the US which is pretty much rock bottom as far as consumer rights go in the Western world/Asia/SEA. On August 02 2012 21:31 Crissaegrim wrote: Whatever, until Valve drops down to the current apathetic and even downright scornful level of Blizzard, I dont really care. Until they start doing things that actively hurt the player base, I see no reason to judge them yet. Sure this does limit your options but for the better or worse I cant really say. I think this issue is being over-estimated. I fail to see how this is apatetic or scornful. A company such as Valve, Blizzard Entertainment, EA etc are greatly exposed due to the kind of service and goods they provide for todays consumer base. The inherent risks are of such magnitude that one minor mistake can escalate easily over millions of users into straight bankrupcy for the company if allowed to persist unchecked. These companies have to protect themselves within the boundaries available to them as they should. It is in my opinion the national/regional legislator that should make sure that while companies protect themselves (especially since they have an unequal barganing position, aka you can not accept but lose access to your goods) they protect the consumer interests. But as always, corruption is a danger where large sums of money are involved and large business runs into the legislator. If this kind of practice from these companies (software/service in general) can persist blame the legislator, not the company, for allowing it. The companies merely aim to protect themselves from the consequences of their mistakes as would each and any of us put into the same situation. You work with the tools which are provided to you. Blame the toolmaker/provider (the national/regional legislator) for allowing these kinds of (perceived) abuse and unfairness to continue. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6323 Posts
On August 02 2012 21:10 Nizaris wrote: not irresponsible since you don't live in the US. Is there even such a thing as class action lawsuits in Europe? Yes there is but not in belgium according to the Dutch wiki http://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-action#section_5 | ||
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Cutlery
Norway565 Posts
I can understand like small-claims, if steam fks up your order or your account, and hesitates to respond on customer service; but it's not like they're gonna wrong you in any other way, is there? Down time and patching? You didn't get to play for 3 hours, so now you're getting the whole world in on a class action suit ? | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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Goshawk.
United Kingdom5338 Posts
On August 04 2012 02:15 TheRabidDeer wrote: Since I cant access any of my games without agreeing to this, is it possible to get a refund on my purchases? No, and you are massively over reacting to the change if you decline. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On August 04 2012 02:16 Goshawk. wrote: No, and you are massively over reacting to the change if you decline. Hey, we gotta stick up for our rights at some point. Its fine and dandy if you dont agree with me, and I know its not a huge deal because I would never see more than pennies if a class action suit happened. | ||
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Tyree
1508 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YM7Hq.png) Aka those games you "own" are there for rent, as i and many have always suspected. Its strange that despite having similar clauses, you can still opt out of any updates on your PS3 and Xbox 360 and still be able to re download and play your games. I mean this is Sony and Microsoft we are talking about, greedy companies that are "out of touch" with what gamers want, yet offer a far more flexible service than the so called generous Valve who understand our supposed needs I recently re downloaded UFC 2009 on my 360, i dont even have Xbox Gold and have not had it for the past 5 years. Yet i was still easily able to re download my old purchase and play it. And i could do so if i had another 360 aswell Bizarro world where Microsoft of all companies does digital far better than Valve, its suppose to be the opposite way around. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
I don't think Steam should try to decide for its users what they can and cannot do outside of Steam itself. Especially making up some bullshit about what's supposed to be better for us. | ||
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