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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 17 2013 04:21 TheRealArtemis wrote:MSNBC Contributor: More White Kids Must Die Before We Understand Racism + Show Spoiler +Don't even know how to react to this..
/facepalm
I agree with a lot of people that we need to have a serious conversation about race and the economic situation in the Black community, but we can't do that when the "leaders" have a vested interest in making that conversation be about emotions and not fact.
Scapegoating Zimmerman is not doing a damn thing for the Black community and it sure as hell isn't doing anything to help us towards a constructive conversation on race. You'll also notice that many of the "leaders" speaking up in these instances have an incentive to keep the Black community where it is as it is what pays the bills for them.
An example, how many Black leaders push for school choice which helps minority and poor communities? Instead, they're in bed with the teacher's unions and Democrats and continue to force those that can't pay for a private education to stay in failing government run schools.
Don't get me wrong, the Republicans aren't doing themselves any favors either. I don't blame minorities for not voting for us just based on a lot of the rhetoric that gets used.
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On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:33 Fusa wrote:what you all fail to realize is the moment zimmerman "stalked" treyvon, was the moment he was the aggressor. The argument is such that treyvon could have simply just "walked away", well he was actively walking away the whole time. It a pretty f***** up world when I can run down someone, confront them, begin to defend/attack rather then avoiding confrontation, begin to lose the mutual combat, then shoot the person to death 300 meters away from where I started running after the kid. Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place.
I see a theme in our brother and sisters from Europe. People are not allowed to play police, unless they do good stuff, which then its ok. But if they make mistakes, it should be against the law. So if you have good intentions, leave them at home in Europe, they are not welcome because you could make something worse.
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On July 17 2013 04:35 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:26 kmillz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:22 MrCon wrote:On July 17 2013 04:17 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 04:15 MrCon wrote:On July 17 2013 04:10 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MrCon wrote:
You can use a pepper spray against knife crime. And it's not like a gun would change anything anyway. lol at pepper spray to thwart a knife crime. what a joke. Come on, don't be dumb on purpose. If I point my gun on you from 3-5 meters, you do nothing. I can't do that with a knife, and if I do, my opponent has ample time to spray me. Wth is this discussion where people are trying to tell you that a knife is the same thing as a gun. Have you ever been sprayed with pepper spray? Its not magic. If that person wants to stab you, they are going to do it, pepper spray or not. If they are drunk or on drugs, it is every more likely that spray will do nothing. I have been on both end. You suddenly can't breath anymore, it's like your throat is blocked, which usually induce such a panic that you don't do anything because you want to stay alive (spray isn't lethal, but its effect make you think you'll die of asphyxiation). Also you can't see anymore because your eyes are too wet. Not sure it's pepper pray, we call that "lacrymogene" C'mon dude at least watch the video I posted. That girl didn't look like she thought she was gonna die. Don't police and military personnel, especially those taking up security roles, train for situations where they are getting sprayed with mace or pepper spray in case it is turned against them?
There is no "training", you just get hit and power through. My brother has been blasted with tear gas like 7 times and can reload a rifle right through it and fire. It still sucks, but he just powers through.
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On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:33 Fusa wrote:what you all fail to realize is the moment zimmerman "stalked" treyvon, was the moment he was the aggressor. The argument is such that treyvon could have simply just "walked away", well he was actively walking away the whole time. It a pretty f***** up world when I can run down someone, confront them, begin to defend/attack rather then avoiding confrontation, begin to lose the mutual combat, then shoot the person to death 300 meters away from where I started running after the kid. Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. He followed someone carrying a gun being told he should not. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place.
Ye, i agree. As some people said before, involuntary manslaughter would seem reasonable. I also never meant that people shouldn't defend themselves, but the situation could have been avoided and that should influence the sentence.
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On July 17 2013 04:34 Gunther wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:33 Fusa wrote:
[quote]
what you all fail to realize is the moment zimmerman "stalked" treyvon, was the moment he was the aggressor. The argument is such that treyvon could have simply just "walked away", well he was actively walking away the whole time.
It a pretty f***** up world when I can run down someone, confront them, begin to defend/attack rather then avoiding confrontation, begin to lose the mutual combat, then shoot the person to death 300 meters away from where I started running after the kid. Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place. Well, nothing occurring to the actual FACTS suggest he played police. Following someone is not playing police no matter how you look at it. How do you think he played police, I'm curious?
What did Zimmerman do in your opinion, I'm curious.
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On July 17 2013 04:38 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:33 Fusa wrote:
[quote]
what you all fail to realize is the moment zimmerman "stalked" treyvon, was the moment he was the aggressor. The argument is such that treyvon could have simply just "walked away", well he was actively walking away the whole time.
It a pretty f***** up world when I can run down someone, confront them, begin to defend/attack rather then avoiding confrontation, begin to lose the mutual combat, then shoot the person to death 300 meters away from where I started running after the kid. Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. He followed someone carrying a gun being told he should not. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place. Ye, i agree. As some people said before, involuntary manslaughter would seem reasonable. I also never meant that people shouldn't defend themselves, but the situation could have been avoided and that should influence the sentence.
Involuntary manslaughter does not exist in Florida.
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On July 17 2013 04:38 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:33 Fusa wrote:
[quote]
what you all fail to realize is the moment zimmerman "stalked" treyvon, was the moment he was the aggressor. The argument is such that treyvon could have simply just "walked away", well he was actively walking away the whole time.
It a pretty f***** up world when I can run down someone, confront them, begin to defend/attack rather then avoiding confrontation, begin to lose the mutual combat, then shoot the person to death 300 meters away from where I started running after the kid. Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. He followed someone carrying a gun being told he should not. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place. Ye, i agree. As some people said before, involuntary manslaughter would seem reasonable. I also never meant that people shouldn't defend themselves, but the situation could have been avoided and that should influence the sentence.
involuntary and voluntary manslaughter are two completely different things. in florida, they dont have involuntary manslaughter.
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On July 17 2013 04:38 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:34 Gunther wrote:On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place. Well, nothing occurring to the actual FACTS suggest he played police. Following someone is not playing police no matter how you look at it. How do you think he played police, I'm curious? What did Zimmerman do in your opinion, I'm curious.
well, in the jury's opinion, he reasonably defended himself.
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On July 17 2013 04:35 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:26 kmillz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:22 MrCon wrote:On July 17 2013 04:17 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 04:15 MrCon wrote:On July 17 2013 04:10 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MrCon wrote:
You can use a pepper spray against knife crime. And it's not like a gun would change anything anyway. lol at pepper spray to thwart a knife crime. what a joke. Come on, don't be dumb on purpose. If I point my gun on you from 3-5 meters, you do nothing. I can't do that with a knife, and if I do, my opponent has ample time to spray me. Wth is this discussion where people are trying to tell you that a knife is the same thing as a gun. Have you ever been sprayed with pepper spray? Its not magic. If that person wants to stab you, they are going to do it, pepper spray or not. If they are drunk or on drugs, it is every more likely that spray will do nothing. I have been on both end. You suddenly can't breath anymore, it's like your throat is blocked, which usually induce such a panic that you don't do anything because you want to stay alive (spray isn't lethal, but its effect make you think you'll die of asphyxiation). Also you can't see anymore because your eyes are too wet. Not sure it's pepper pray, we call that "lacrymogene" C'mon dude at least watch the video I posted. That girl didn't look like she thought she was gonna die. Don't police and military personnel, especially those taking up security roles, train for situations where they are getting sprayed with mace or pepper spray in case it is turned against them?
I served 4 years in the Marine Corps. No I've never had any training related to pepper spray. Being a Marine or Police Officer doesn't make you impervious to the effects of pepper spray. The point is simply pepper spray is not an effective way to stop someone from killing you with a knife.
On July 17 2013 04:38 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:33 Fusa wrote:
[quote]
what you all fail to realize is the moment zimmerman "stalked" treyvon, was the moment he was the aggressor. The argument is such that treyvon could have simply just "walked away", well he was actively walking away the whole time.
It a pretty f***** up world when I can run down someone, confront them, begin to defend/attack rather then avoiding confrontation, begin to lose the mutual combat, then shoot the person to death 300 meters away from where I started running after the kid. Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. He followed someone carrying a gun being told he should not. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place. Ye, i agree. As some people said before, involuntary manslaughter would seem reasonable. I also never meant that people shouldn't defend themselves, but the situation could have been avoided and that should influence the sentence.
Really?
You are also allowed to defend your own home. The difference is we don't define our home as "where you currently stand" so that everyone can go around and play cowboy.
You clearly implied that you are only allowed to defend yourself in your house where you are from.
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On July 17 2013 04:42 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:35 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 04:26 kmillz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:22 MrCon wrote:On July 17 2013 04:17 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 04:15 MrCon wrote:On July 17 2013 04:10 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MrCon wrote:
You can use a pepper spray against knife crime. And it's not like a gun would change anything anyway. lol at pepper spray to thwart a knife crime. what a joke. Come on, don't be dumb on purpose. If I point my gun on you from 3-5 meters, you do nothing. I can't do that with a knife, and if I do, my opponent has ample time to spray me. Wth is this discussion where people are trying to tell you that a knife is the same thing as a gun. Have you ever been sprayed with pepper spray? Its not magic. If that person wants to stab you, they are going to do it, pepper spray or not. If they are drunk or on drugs, it is every more likely that spray will do nothing. I have been on both end. You suddenly can't breath anymore, it's like your throat is blocked, which usually induce such a panic that you don't do anything because you want to stay alive (spray isn't lethal, but its effect make you think you'll die of asphyxiation). Also you can't see anymore because your eyes are too wet. Not sure it's pepper pray, we call that "lacrymogene" C'mon dude at least watch the video I posted. That girl didn't look like she thought she was gonna die. Don't police and military personnel, especially those taking up security roles, train for situations where they are getting sprayed with mace or pepper spray in case it is turned against them? I served 4 years in the Marine Corps. No I've never had any training related to pepper spray. Being a Marine or Police Officer doesn't make you impervious to the effects of pepper spray. The point is simply pepper spray is not an effective way to stop someone from killing you with a knife.
I don't know why people think that the military trains people to have special powers to resist pepper spray.
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On July 17 2013 04:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:33 Fusa wrote:
[quote]
what you all fail to realize is the moment zimmerman "stalked" treyvon, was the moment he was the aggressor. The argument is such that treyvon could have simply just "walked away", well he was actively walking away the whole time.
It a pretty f***** up world when I can run down someone, confront them, begin to defend/attack rather then avoiding confrontation, begin to lose the mutual combat, then shoot the person to death 300 meters away from where I started running after the kid. Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place. I see a theme in our brother and sisters from Europe. People are not allowed to play police, unless they do good stuff, which then its ok. But if they make mistakes, it should be against the law. So if you have good intentions, leave them at home in Europe, they are not welcome because you could make something worse.
But that is just it. This is beyond mistake.
He was told NOT to follow.
He had every opportunity to NOT put himself in the situation he did but he still did. With a loaded gun I might add.
What was Zimmerman saving other people from? Nothing was happening. He sees something he thinks is suspicious. It's not like there is an ongoing bank robery he discovered and decided to stop.
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On July 17 2013 04:35 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:26 kmillz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:22 MrCon wrote:On July 17 2013 04:17 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 04:15 MrCon wrote:On July 17 2013 04:10 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MrCon wrote:
You can use a pepper spray against knife crime. And it's not like a gun would change anything anyway. lol at pepper spray to thwart a knife crime. what a joke. Come on, don't be dumb on purpose. If I point my gun on you from 3-5 meters, you do nothing. I can't do that with a knife, and if I do, my opponent has ample time to spray me. Wth is this discussion where people are trying to tell you that a knife is the same thing as a gun. Have you ever been sprayed with pepper spray? Its not magic. If that person wants to stab you, they are going to do it, pepper spray or not. If they are drunk or on drugs, it is every more likely that spray will do nothing. I have been on both end. You suddenly can't breath anymore, it's like your throat is blocked, which usually induce such a panic that you don't do anything because you want to stay alive (spray isn't lethal, but its effect make you think you'll die of asphyxiation). Also you can't see anymore because your eyes are too wet. Not sure it's pepper pray, we call that "lacrymogene" C'mon dude at least watch the video I posted. That girl didn't look like she thought she was gonna die. Don't police and military personnel, especially those taking up security roles, train for situations where they are getting sprayed with mace or pepper spray in case it is turned against them?
Some gangs do the same. Some will even shoot each other with guns and bullet proof vests to show how tough they are.
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On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 02:33 Fusa wrote:what you all fail to realize is the moment zimmerman "stalked" treyvon, was the moment he was the aggressor. The argument is such that treyvon could have simply just "walked away", well he was actively walking away the whole time. It a pretty f***** up world when I can run down someone, confront them, begin to defend/attack rather then avoiding confrontation, begin to lose the mutual combat, then shoot the person to death 300 meters away from where I started running after the kid. Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. He followed someone carrying a gun being told he should not. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place.
Following somebody with a concealed weapon isn't the same as playing police either. From the accounts given in the trial, There is nothing he did prior to the confrontation that was illegal.
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On July 17 2013 04:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:42 kmillz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:35 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 04:26 kmillz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:22 MrCon wrote:On July 17 2013 04:17 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 04:15 MrCon wrote:On July 17 2013 04:10 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MrCon wrote:
You can use a pepper spray against knife crime. And it's not like a gun would change anything anyway. lol at pepper spray to thwart a knife crime. what a joke. Come on, don't be dumb on purpose. If I point my gun on you from 3-5 meters, you do nothing. I can't do that with a knife, and if I do, my opponent has ample time to spray me. Wth is this discussion where people are trying to tell you that a knife is the same thing as a gun. Have you ever been sprayed with pepper spray? Its not magic. If that person wants to stab you, they are going to do it, pepper spray or not. If they are drunk or on drugs, it is every more likely that spray will do nothing. I have been on both end. You suddenly can't breath anymore, it's like your throat is blocked, which usually induce such a panic that you don't do anything because you want to stay alive (spray isn't lethal, but its effect make you think you'll die of asphyxiation). Also you can't see anymore because your eyes are too wet. Not sure it's pepper pray, we call that "lacrymogene" C'mon dude at least watch the video I posted. That girl didn't look like she thought she was gonna die. Don't police and military personnel, especially those taking up security roles, train for situations where they are getting sprayed with mace or pepper spray in case it is turned against them? I served 4 years in the Marine Corps. No I've never had any training related to pepper spray. Being a Marine or Police Officer doesn't make you impervious to the effects of pepper spray. The point is simply pepper spray is not an effective way to stop someone from killing you with a knife. I don't know why people think that the military trains people to have special powers to resist pepper spray.
The reality is all Marines and military personnel are still human beings. Yes we have training to endure more in battle but it doesn't give us super powers lol
On July 17 2013 04:45 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:36 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place. I see a theme in our brother and sisters from Europe. People are not allowed to play police, unless they do good stuff, which then its ok. But if they make mistakes, it should be against the law. So if you have good intentions, leave them at home in Europe, they are not welcome because you could make something worse. But that is just it. This is beyond mistake. He was told NOT to follow. He had every opportunity to NOT put himself in the situation he did but he still did. With a loaded gun I might add. What was Zimmerman saving other people from? Nothing was happening. He sees something he thinks is suspicious. It's not like there is an ongoing bank robery he discovered and decided to stop.
Trayvon Martin had every opportunity to not turn around and confront George Zimmerman as well. Either way, I'm not going to blame Trayvon for turning around and confronting Zimmerman and say that he shouldn't have done that because it doesn't matter. At all. The only thing that matters is that George Zimmerman was in fear of his life and that Trayvon Martin was the one making him fear for his life.
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On July 17 2013 04:45 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:36 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place. I see a theme in our brother and sisters from Europe. People are not allowed to play police, unless they do good stuff, which then its ok. But if they make mistakes, it should be against the law. So if you have good intentions, leave them at home in Europe, they are not welcome because you could make something worse. But that is just it. This is beyond mistake. He was told NOT to follow. He had every opportunity to NOT put himself in the situation he did but he still did. With a loaded gun I might add. What was Zimmerman saving other people from? Nothing was happening. He sees something he thinks is suspicious. It's not like there is an ongoing bank robery he discovered and decided to stop.
An in that exact same line, what is to stop Trayvon from going home or just non-violently confronting Zimmerman? Nothing. They were in a gated community and both parties could have walked away or not confronted the other. But that isn't want happened and its sucks.
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On July 17 2013 04:45 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:36 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place. I see a theme in our brother and sisters from Europe. People are not allowed to play police, unless they do good stuff, which then its ok. But if they make mistakes, it should be against the law. So if you have good intentions, leave them at home in Europe, they are not welcome because you could make something worse. But that is just it. This is beyond mistake. He was told NOT to follow. He had every opportunity to NOT put himself in the situation he did but he still did. With a loaded gun I might add. What was Zimmerman saving other people from? Nothing was happening. He sees something he thinks is suspicious. It's not like there is an ongoing bank robery he discovered and decided to stop.
based on what we know, zimmerman "following" trayvon was as much related to the death as zimmerman's decision to go to WALMART. it was not the proximate cause of the shooting, and thus, really doesnt matter in the grand scheme of things. it was obviously the "but for" cause, but we dont convict people based on "but for" causes.
lazy google search: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximate_cause
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Should use a different store, I think. >_>;
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On July 17 2013 04:45 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:36 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Did you just make all that up as you went? That isn't the facts of the case at all. You need to read up on it, rather than just believing what other people tell you. "About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]" Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place. I see a theme in our brother and sisters from Europe. People are not allowed to play police, unless they do good stuff, which then its ok. But if they make mistakes, it should be against the law. So if you have good intentions, leave them at home in Europe, they are not welcome because you could make something worse. But that is just it. This is beyond mistake. He was told NOT to follow. He had every opportunity to NOT put himself in the situation he did but he still did. With a loaded gun I might add. What was Zimmerman saving other people from? Nothing was happening. He sees something he thinks is suspicious. It's not like there is an ongoing bank robery he discovered and decided to stop.
"We don't need you to do that" isn't a command to not follow somebody. Even if it was, as has been said countless times in this thread, it doesn't mean shit, and the 3-11 operator testified to that during the trial.
With all the people saying "if Zimmerman didn't follow Trayvon, nothing would have happened!" have you considered the fact that nothing would have happened if Trayvon didn't attack Zimmerman in the first place (if Zimmerman's story is true, that is)?
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On July 17 2013 04:50 Zen5034 wrote:
Should use a different store, I think. >_>;
it is now walmart. ;-) although i think he actually went to target.
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On July 17 2013 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:38 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:34 Gunther wrote:On July 17 2013 04:33 papaz wrote:On July 17 2013 04:08 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 17 2013 03:28 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 17 2013 03:18 Nyxisto wrote:On July 17 2013 03:16 SKC wrote:On July 17 2013 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
"About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[13] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[74] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[75] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[13] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[76] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[13] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[13]"
Sounds pretty much like Zimmerman followed Trayvon.
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation Your own quote says Zimmermann lost him at some point. It doesn't have a timeline. It in no way disproves the fact that Trayvon could have just walked away to his house. If you want more detailed information you need something better than Wikipedia. Trayvon is running and Zimmeran is following him. Zimmerman even confirms this. Then the police advices him to not follow anymore. Then the call ends. Next thing we know is a confrontation happend and one guy is dead. And these are direct parts from the conversations. What exactly is your point? That there is other evidence that Trayvon got into a conflict with Zimmerman, got the upper hand and was beating Zimmerman against the ground. This was backed up by an eye witness and the police reports. The jury members said that they believed Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and he defended himself. The stuff how provided doesn't prove anything except that Zimmerman followed Martin, which isn't illegal. But it should be. Why is an untrained person allowed to play police? For me that sounds like climbing into a tiger cage, killing the tiger when he attacks you and saying: "I didn't do anything wrong, it attacked me!" Of course it's true, but Zimmerman got himself into a dangerous confrontation that escalated because both people didn't know how to handle the situation. I don't see why something like this is not illegal. If the situation could be avoided that should be the first option. If the "defender" willingly engages in the confrontation, he risks the health of himself and others involved. Following someone is not the same as playing police. It's public space and Zimmerman had every right to be there. It would have been smarter for him not to have been there, but it shouldn't be made a crime. Zimmerman played police no matter how you look at the matter. Something is beyond messed up when you actively put yourself in the position Zimmerman did and completely go free because you defended yourself. I'm not saying he is guilty of murder but he is sure guilty of something and what needs to be done so that this tragic event doesn't occur again is that people one way or another is not allowed to play police in the first place. Well, nothing occurring to the actual FACTS suggest he played police. Following someone is not playing police no matter how you look at it. How do you think he played police, I'm curious? What did Zimmerman do in your opinion, I'm curious. well, in the jury's opinion, he reasonably defended himself.
You are either deliberately avoiding the question or just being a wiseguy.
Was Zimmerman stopping an ongoing bank robery, was he stopping a kidnapping?
What was he doing in the FIRST place. What happened after he put himself in a situation with a loaded gun is obvious but if you only look at this tragic event as a snapshot of the moment Zimmerman felt he needed to use a gun then God save us all from every person out there that decides approach someone else with a gun, gets in a fight and then protects himself.
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EPT
