On March 03 2012 01:00 bode927 wrote: I think the reason people vote here in the US is so they have a right to complain about it. Because if you don't vote, you have no right to complain.
Yeah this kind of somes up how I feel about the situation. If you don't vote, you don't really have a right to complain about the state of your nation. Voting is a vital part of our government and whether or not you "feel" like your vote matters it does. The voice of the people is their ability to cast their opinion in ballot form to help guide the future of our country.
I do agree with what some people have mentioned earlier that people voting without educating themselves first is a problem because they are not actually representing anything, they are just arbitrarily adding votes to someone or something that they know nothing about. As an American it's our duty to participate in our government. Educate yourself on candidates/issues and make your opinion known with your vote. It may not feel like your vote matters in this massive country full of voters but if everyone gives up the voice then who is making the decisions?
The fact is that the more people who educate themselves on these matters and cast intelligent votes that actually represent how they feel the better off our country will be in the long run. It's voter negligence and apathy that's the biggest threat to our government.
EDIT:
On March 03 2012 01:20 Silidons wrote: the entire reason the electoral college system was set up was for the elite to make sure that the lower class citizens would be able to change nothing. the more you know.
Wow this is so unbelievably false. It was created primarily so that smaller states still had a voice in the election. As someone already mentioned, if it was based solely on populace votes elections would be decided by 3 states more or less. With the electoral college the number of votes, although still weighted, allows every state to have a valid stake in the election. The "elite" as you call them are representatives of their state. If they ignore the majority vote of their states voters they won't find themselves in that position much longer since their position is elected as well.
On March 03 2012 01:12 Smat wrote: Without the electoral college system in place you would see presidential races spend 90 percent of their time in Texas, NY, and Cali and candidates wouldn't give a shit what someone in Iowa thinks.
the entire reason the electoral college system was set up was for the elite to make sure that the lower class citizens would be able to change nothing. the more you know. [/QUOTE] Doesn't change my point
On March 03 2012 01:12 Smat wrote: Without the electoral college system in place you would see presidential races spend 90 percent of their time in Texas, NY, and Cali and candidates wouldn't give a shit what someone in Iowa thinks.
As opposed to the current system where candidates spend 90% of their time in states like Iowa and don't bother with Texas, NY and Cali? Only a few battleground states matter in every presidential election. In fact, one of the biggest reasons politics is screwed up is because politicians don't represent the demographics of America properly.The majority of Americans have lived in urban settings since 1900 yet the majority of our politicians come from rural parts of the country. They're creating policies that favor small towns in the middle of nowhere, which is very inefficient.
On March 03 2012 01:00 bode927 wrote: I think the reason people vote here in the US is so they have a right to complain about it. Because if you don't vote, you have no right to complain.
Yeah this kind of somes up how I feel about the situation. If you don't vote, you don't really have a right to complain about the state of your nation. Voting is a vital part of our government and whether or not you "feel" like your vote matters it does. The voice of the people is their ability to cast their opinion in ballot form to help guide the future of our country.
I do agree with what some people have mentioned earlier that people voting without educating themselves first is a problem because they are not actually representing anything, they are just arbitrarily adding votes to someone or something that they know nothing about. As an American it's our duty to participate in our government. Educate yourself on candidates/issues and make your opinion known with your vote. It may not feel like your vote matters in this massive country full of voters but if everyone gives up the voice then who is making the decisions?
The fact is that the more people who educate themselves on these matters and cast intelligent votes that actually represent how they feel the better off our country will be in the long run. It's voter negligence and apathy that's the biggest threat to our government.
Its funny to me when i read things like this. I am not bashing you Achaia I am just saying that people really think like you do. Its funny because a lot of it educating yourself over the policies and stuff is great i agree you should do that. However I disagree with the fact you feel that if more people did this we would have better presidents or a better way of life. I think that people need to understand that the president is just one big liar and his policies really just mean how many people can I get to vote for me. Maybe he will act and change some things.. hell even Obama changed some things... but look at the state we are in now with the war just ending .. when we were told that was going to end the first year Obama was in office.. we ended up sending 20,000 more troops.. IF THAT WAS IN THE POLICIES I BET YOU OBAMA WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ELECTED. Do you see what I mean? Things are just an illusion so we feel safe and get a new president who we feel represents us.... however the people are not really the ones putting him in office, yes we may vote for him, but if I gave you a loan for a new house... right? Then I said well I want you to cut your grass a certain way because it makes the house look nicer.. or I want you to NOT park in the driveway because I don't want oil to stain it... would you really say no to that? After I just paid for your loans on this house?
EDIT: and im not just calling you out Achaia I am just using an example I hope I didnt come off like YOUR THE PROBLEM type of thing :D but a lot of ppl feel the way you feel and im just grouping it in ... :D no hard feelings just saying.
I used to agree. I've never voted despite having chances. But I will vote this year. Yes the system is corrupt, but the vote is power. its not much, but it some. tell Russian people that American politics are corrupt.
We should be proud of the vote. People died for it. We should work to make it stronger. What do you win by not voting?
On March 03 2012 00:33 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I remember this one Jon Stewart quote - "To the people that think their vote counts - imagine your vote is a deer tick. Now imagine the presidential election is the continent of Asia."
At any rate, I think doing away with the electoral college and counting votes - we have the technology to accurately count the millions of votes these days - would get a lot more people to vote, because they aren't voting Republican in a blue state or voting Democrat in a red state anymore - they're voting against the whole country which is relatively purple.
This isn't true. There are 76 Democratic House Reps in Red States, and 49 Republicans Reps in Blue States. The "votes-don't-count" mindset is one of the reasons Congressional elections aren't competitive anymore. There are so many factors that give incumbents an advantage over competitors already. In order to overcome these advantages, it takes a supreme effort on the part of the voters, not just the challenger.
With regards to OP, I think this whole school of thought is dangerous and irrational. When I say "school of thought," I mean this: theorizing that votes don't matter and that there is no reason to vote except personal satisfaction. With regards to the value of a single vote, it is inarguable that one single vote cannot sway an election. To say, however, that the process doesn't matter is incorrect, however. Certainly one vote doesn't make a difference, but why should it? The concept behind a majoritarian democracy is "the will of the people," not "the will of one man." It is not one motion that affects change in a nation, but rather it is movement-- a continuous push of the people against an injustice or a string of injustices, a relentless struggle to make a nation better. The greatest tool the people have is their votes-- not just one, but a collection, a mass, a whole.
Examining the second sentiment (that people only vote for personal satisfaction), that depends on the lens through which you cast your vote. If one sees his vote as a means through which he or she can personally change the world, then it certainly is an act of self-satisfaction. If, however, one casts his or her vote to make a statement with his or her comrades, to speak with the authority of a plurality or majority, it matters. Change does not come with one voice. Change comes from a multitude of people. Decisions are made by people who show up, and whether or not a person wants to be part of the voice of change is up to him or her.
Additionally, OP and several other posts regarding the meaninglessness of voting struck me as funny. One post in particular showed such a contradiction to rationality that it seemed almost satiric:
On March 02 2012 02:57 D10 wrote: I wish I could not vote, here in Brazil if you dont go vote you lose a lot of rights =(
One of the reasons we elect so many corrupt politicians, so many people with 0 idea of politics voting
I have never ever seen someone wish they couldn't vote. The way I've heard it, it's always been the other way around. People without the freedoms to speak as a whole-- Tibetans, Iranians, North Koreans-- have been denied not only the power to vote, but the ability to speak, to gather, to think. Why should you complain about being allowed to vote?
Finally, as a matter of clarification, I want to talk a little bit about lobbying. Lobbyists are not necessarily evil. They aren't inherently greedy pocketbooks with an agenda. Lobbying is speech through petition, and all major organizations in the United States are represented by lobbyists. This doesn't just mean Big Tobacco, the NRA, Big Oil, and every other pitchfork-wielding devil-worshiping company, but Greenpeace, the NAACP, and the NBA. For every perspective that lobbies in Congress with one agenda, there's another that lobbies Congress with the opposite agenda. My point is that all sides are represented. Politicians don't generally take bribes from lobbyists either. That's a big congressional no-no. Getting wined and dined is different, and, in reality, lobbyists generally only lobby hard on politicians who would vote for them anyway. Like the NRA isn't going to lobby a Massachusetts member of congress for looser gun control-- he or she wouldn't waste his or her time. Lobbyists mostly just try to push their agenda to the top of Congress's minds.
On March 03 2012 01:00 bode927 wrote: I think the reason people vote here in the US is so they have a right to complain about it. Because if you don't vote, you have no right to complain.
Yeah this kind of somes up how I feel about the situation. If you don't vote, you don't really have a right to complain about the state of your nation. Voting is a vital part of our government and whether or not you "feel" like your vote matters it does. The voice of the people is their ability to cast their opinion in ballot form to help guide the future of our country.
I do agree with what some people have mentioned earlier that people voting without educating themselves first is a problem because they are not actually representing anything, they are just arbitrarily adding votes to someone or something that they know nothing about. As an American it's our duty to participate in our government. Educate yourself on candidates/issues and make your opinion known with your vote. It may not feel like your vote matters in this massive country full of voters but if everyone gives up the voice then who is making the decisions?
The fact is that the more people who educate themselves on these matters and cast intelligent votes that actually represent how they feel the better off our country will be in the long run. It's voter negligence and apathy that's the biggest threat to our government.
Its funny to me when i read things like this. I am not bashing you Achaia I am just saying that people really think like you do. Its funny because a lot of it educating yourself over the policies and stuff is great i agree you should do that. However I disagree with the fact you feel that if more people did this we would have better presidents or a better way of life. I think that people need to understand that the president is just one big liar and his policies really just mean how many people can I get to vote for me. Maybe he will act and change some things.. hell even Obama changed some things... but look at the state we are in now with the war just ending .. when we were told that was going to end the first year Obama was in office.. we ended up sending 20,000 more troops.. IF THAT WAS IN THE POLICIES I BET YOU OBAMA WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ELECTED. Do you see what I mean? Things are just an illusion so we feel safe and get a new president who we feel represents us.... however the people are not really the ones putting him in office, yes we may vote for him, but if I gave you a loan for a new house... right? Then I said well I want you to cut your grass a certain way because it makes the house look nicer.. or I want you to NOT park in the driveway because I don't want oil to stain it... would you really say no to that? After I just paid for your loans on this house?
EDIT: and im not just calling you out Achaia I am just using an example I hope I didnt come off like YOUR THE PROBLEM type of thing :D but a lot of ppl feel the way you feel and im just grouping it in ... :D no hard feelings just saying.
Not at all mate, no worries. In all honesty I feel like any discussion that brings more understanding to our government in any way only helps because people learn to think and form their own opinions. While I agree with you that presidents often make promises that they can't necessarily deliver on or omit things that may happen (such as your troops example) that doesn't mean that voting is useless.
If you vote simply for the presidency and do nothing else, of course it's going to feel like the election outcome is meaningless. The point of electing a president is putting your support behind someone that you agree with more on a fundamental level. While campaign promises are all fine and dandy, I personally am more interested in the candidates on a personal level. How have they handled themselves in politics previously? Where do they stand on key issues? What moral guidelines do they use to make decisions. If you buy into a candidate simply because of their campaign promises I feel like most people will be disapointed with the outcome. That being said, if you believe in someone and vote for them our job doesn't end there, it's our duty to continue to stay active and show our support or lack thereof for policies as they're being debated and voted on. The example of SOPA is a shining beacon of how we can have an effect on the proceedings of congress. The entire internet was in an outrage at that trash legislation. We can apply that same line of thought to supporting legislation if we are behind it.
I guess what I'm getting at is that the people have power, but unless they collectively wield it and are wise when doing so, there will always be a perception of ineffective government.
You may be a blue voter living deep in a red state and think your vote doesn't matter. However you look at it, your vote is your voice. Even if you cannot be heard, shout.
What most people don't understand, is that *voting for the president is the least important vote of all*. Your single vote is hardly going to affect the whole nation. It's still good to vote, but just remember your vote is a tiny fraction of a fraction of the vote in the presidential election.
The important votes are for your governor, senators, representatives, etc. But *no one ever votes in these*!! Many people say their state is run by idiots, but they never even participated in the election. These local level elections are much, much more easily swayed by your vote. That's not to mention they probably affect your lives more, because they make the local policies.
This guy is mixing stuff so bad. There are basically 2 major ways of building social order: Democracy and Autocracy (this are the extremes, there's many things inbetween shifting more towards one or the other). Now, what the guy in the video proposes --- not voting, not giving a shit --- is a critical point for Democracy, where it ultimately fails and changes into Autocracy (most likely, it's a point where revolution happens). Critical point for Autocracy is the opposite, when people stop being docile, become aware of what's going on and start participating, that's when Autocracy crumbles.
One of the things in Democracy this guy also forgets about is failsafes built in the sytem, namely: separation of powers (usually into executive, judiciary and legislature). This way, none of the branches can gather all of the state's power in a single hand and they all have to compete with each other over citizen's favor to sway the balance of power where it's needed.
I suggest you first read some on the matter before blindly trusting some guy on YouTube who's mixing facts with fiction and generally confusing things (mixing autocracy and democracy way too much there, and this ridiculous obsession with guns, of course the government is controlling the military but it doesn't mean shit as it's a double-edged sword as history has taught us).
On March 02 2012 02:55 rapidash88 wrote: Things like the resistance to SOPA have shown to me that people can still weild influence in government. In my local election, the vote for a city council seat was decided by two votes, and I was glad to have voted.
The issue in our national government is partly one of corruption (which happens in ALL governments to some extent) and the fact that our election system simple is not a very good one. The two party system that we have been forced into creates more corruption then other systems
Yeah, except if we have to put in that much effort for every bad law and policy that is made to make any difference at all, it already means democracy is totally useless.
Yea, any system where a bum with no education that would trade his vote for food has the same say electing people as aristotle is bound to fail
i just said in an earlier post that faith for humanity was restored. i take that back now.
OP, for what it's worth, democracy isn't the be-all and end-all of government. Even the Greeks, who are generally credited with it's beginnings, thought democracy was one of the "lesser" forms of government, and something better off avoided - for exactly the same reasons you mention.
On March 02 2012 02:55 rapidash88 wrote: Things like the resistance to SOPA have shown to me that people can still weild influence in government. In my local election, the vote for a city council seat was decided by two votes, and I was glad to have voted.
The issue in our national government is partly one of corruption (which happens in ALL governments to some extent) and the fact that our election system simple is not a very good one. The two party system that we have been forced into creates more corruption then other systems
Yeah, except if we have to put in that much effort for every bad law and policy that is made to make any difference at all, it already means democracy is totally useless.
Yea, any system where a bum with no education that would trade his vote for food has the same say electing people as aristotle is bound to fail
i just said in an earlier post that faith for humanity was restored. i take that back now.
Why? The example illustrated may not be the most palatable but it makes a good point about the shortcomings of the system as it is.
On March 03 2012 02:22 NebuLoSa wrote: wow i never thought i'd hear an american say this. i have to admit i feel like faith in humanity has been restored. gogo!
What a bizarre comment. You're aware that the majority of Americans don't vote right?
Op, everything you said about the political structure of the US is true. On top of that, both parties have gone so far right that often it doesn't matter wether a dem or republican is in the whitehouse. But the two parties DO differ significantly in some areas. Sometimes presidential elections come down to only a few hundred votes in a crucial county in a swing state. The 2000 election is a great example. If the supreme court wouldn't have stopped the recounts in Florida, Al Gore would have won Florida by a handful of votes, thus winning the electoral vote as well as the popular vote. Had gore won, there would have been no second Iraq war. Had there been no invasion of Iraq, thousands upon thousands of people would not have been killed and the US would not have sunk billions of dollars into an illegal war based on fraudulent pretexts and bogus evidence. So, while no single individual's vote will determine an election, a few hundred votes in the right region conceivably could. That, to me, is good enough reason to participate in electoral politics. If enough people vote, get involved, drive their friends to the polls, etc, it can determine presidential elections and thus have a massive impact on the course of history.
On March 03 2012 02:22 NebuLoSa wrote: wow i never thought i'd hear an american say this. i have to admit i feel like faith in humanity has been restored. gogo!
What a bizarre comment. You're aware that the majority of Americans don't vote right?
No. I never said I think it's a good thing not to vote. I certainly think it's a right you should take use of (?)..
What i mean with that post was that I'm really surprised an American (guess i am extremely prejudiced) has got that much insight into how the society as a whole works.
And why would you think my post was about him/her not voting? Read it again. Do you really think anyone would use those words about the action someone performs when not voting? No. Of course not.
OP, for what it's worth, democracy isn't the be-all and end-all of government. Even the Greeks, who are generally credited with it's beginnings, thought democracy was one of the "lesser" forms of government, and something better off avoided - for exactly the same reasons you mention.
On March 02 2012 02:55 rapidash88 wrote: Things like the resistance to SOPA have shown to me that people can still weild influence in government. In my local election, the vote for a city council seat was decided by two votes, and I was glad to have voted.
The issue in our national government is partly one of corruption (which happens in ALL governments to some extent) and the fact that our election system simple is not a very good one. The two party system that we have been forced into creates more corruption then other systems
Yeah, except if we have to put in that much effort for every bad law and policy that is made to make any difference at all, it already means democracy is totally useless.
Yea, any system where a bum with no education that would trade his vote for food has the same say electing people as aristotle is bound to fail
i just said in an earlier post that faith for humanity was restored. i take that back now.
Why? The example illustrated may not be the most palatable but it makes a good point about the shortcomings of the system as it is.
I might've read this wrong because my english is pretty bad but doesn't he mean that the voice of poor, uneducated etc etc is worth less than the ones of educated and rich people? If he is I'd just to say that's a retarded view on people and society. There are other aspects than those that has to do with education to this. For example -- don't you think that someone who's been living on the streets for a long time, without a job etc. has got some important insight into how some areas of the society works? Do you really think that that person isn't worth as much (because that's really what it means if you say that their vote isn't worth as much) as someone with a higher education? I'm sorry but I just feel sad when I hear people saying things like that. Really sad.
EPT
