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On March 02 2012 02:47 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Only considering national elections. President, senator, etc.
I live in the USA, and I have never voted, though I've been of age for the last three presidential elections. At first it was because I lived in a state which has always been completely lopsided for one party. I felt like my vote didn't matter, which I realize is a point that many will argue. But, fu, the fact is that my state would elect republicans for national offices no matter what, period.
In the past few years, however, my reasons have changed a bit. Now I realize that I just have no faith in the electoral system. As much as I hate sounding like a long-boarding, clove-smoking,, hipster douche, I feel like the fact of the matter is that the wealthy elite of the country really do control everything. Business moguls and celebrities become senators, governors, and president. Our laws, regulations, and taxes are thought up and created by people who are wealthy and powerful. They've proven time and time again that they're willing to use their position to advance their own ends.
And of course, lobbyists. Whatever company, group, or individual has the most money can trade that cash in for political influence. Oil companies wine, dine, and bribe for the rights to drill in previously protected environmental areas. Religions collect hundreds of billions annually, tax-free mind you, and then turn around and pump that money right back into congress to support bills that they find morally correct.
I know that this is nothing new. Classes have existed since the beginning of civilization. What's infuriating is that Democracy is touted as a government of the people, where decisions and policies are made based on the will of the general public.
It's not. That's why I don't vote.
Is this a blog?
In the end whoever gets in doesn't really matter. Sure some of their ideas lean towards left/right, but what difference does it make to the individual in their daily life? I live in South Carolina, so no use voting I see your point there. Also we're not a democracy. A true democracy means everyone votes on everything which isn't possible.
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On March 02 2012 22:10 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 02:47 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Only considering national elections. President, senator, etc.
I live in the USA, and I have never voted, though I've been of age for the last three presidential elections. At first it was because I lived in a state which has always been completely lopsided for one party. I felt like my vote didn't matter, which I realize is a point that many will argue. But, fu, the fact is that my state would elect republicans for national offices no matter what, period.
In the past few years, however, my reasons have changed a bit. Now I realize that I just have no faith in the electoral system. As much as I hate sounding like a long-boarding, clove-smoking,, hipster douche, I feel like the fact of the matter is that the wealthy elite of the country really do control everything. Business moguls and celebrities become senators, governors, and president. Our laws, regulations, and taxes are thought up and created by people who are wealthy and powerful. They've proven time and time again that they're willing to use their position to advance their own ends.
And of course, lobbyists. Whatever company, group, or individual has the most money can trade that cash in for political influence. Oil companies wine, dine, and bribe for the rights to drill in previously protected environmental areas. Religions collect hundreds of billions annually, tax-free mind you, and then turn around and pump that money right back into congress to support bills that they find morally correct.
I know that this is nothing new. Classes have existed since the beginning of civilization. What's infuriating is that Democracy is touted as a government of the people, where decisions and policies are made based on the will of the general public.
It's not. That's why I don't vote.
Is this a blog? In the end whoever gets in doesn't really matter. Sure some of their ideas lean towards left/right, but what difference does it make to the individual in their daily life? I live in South Carolina, so no use voting I see your point there. Also we're not a democracy. A true democracy means everyone votes on everything which isn't possible.
Holy shit is this a horrible cycle. Civic inactivity leads to civic ignorance which leads to civic inactivity, and that is what you find yourself in. You as a US citizen should know that you don't live in a democracy, you live in a Republic, as defined by the constitution and all subsequent legislative affirmations.
There are substantial gaps between left and right candidates, you should educate yourself on some of them, and make an appropriate voting action based on your personal beliefs. If everyone was like you then we would be in an even worse state than we are in presently.
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On March 02 2012 20:50 Xapti wrote:I'm not saying there's anything magical. I'm saying it's disgusting if you say and think 1 thing, but do nothing about it.
Personally, I find it disgusting when people cast a worthless vote and congratulate themselves for doing something meaningful.
On March 02 2012 20:50 Xapti wrote:I'm not talking about only independents, I'm talking about parties. If you think voting for a 3rd party is like abstaining, then it's all the more reason to vote 3rd party. Revolutions don't happen with people sitting on their asses doing dick-all being too lazy to go out and vote. If there's 40+ % of people not voting, that could mean 40+% of the population who could vote for 3rd parties. If such people don't vote for a third party because their popular rate in a previous election was only 0.1% instead of 2, 6, or 15% then the 3rd party will never get a foothold because the lazy dicks don't care enough.
Revolutions don't happen because people throw away their votes. Revolutions happen when people actually, y'know, revolt. Casting worthless votes is just a BS way to feel good about yourself without actually making sacrifices to do something real.
On March 02 2012 20:50 Xapti wrote:With a huge amount of people who don't vote at all, it gives NO indication of what the people want. If a major party can get someone's vote by incorporating a 3rd party's policy into their own, they could obtain some of such 3rd party's votes, resulting in overall change even if the same major party(ies) are in power. If 5% vote green, 4% vote libertarian, 9% vote communist, it AT LEAST shows the opinions of the populace, and people can work from there.
No one in power cares about the opinions of the populace, beyond the ability of those opinions to threaten their power, and in the American electoral system, third parties are incapable of threatening them. Thus, expressing your opinion in this manner is worth nothing. You're far too optimstic in believing that showing the opinions of the population will achieve anything meaningful. I know this sounds depressing, but such is the cold, hard reality of politics.
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No one in power cares about the opinions of the populace, beyond the ability of those opinions to threaten their power, and in the American electoral system, third parties are incapable of threatening them. Thus, expressing your opinion in this manner is worth nothing. You're far too optimstic in believing that showing the opinions of the population will achieve anything meaningful. I know this sounds depressing, but such is the cold, hard reality of politics.
Good job contradicting your entire assertion in your first sentence. What is the ability to threaten power in the democratic system, if voting is not it?
Go ask the 63 House Democrats who lost their seats in 2010 if the expression of opinion of voters is worth nothing. Don't you think that the Democratic Party would have preferred to keep them in office?
Or the 680 Democrats who lost their seats in State legislatures.
Go ask the Republicans who lost in 2006 and 2008. Those elections had real effects at the state and national level. Huge amounts of new laws and political dreams strengthened, brought alive, weakened and vanquished have occurred.
Sorry that your particular political opinions seem unable to garner support that is strong enough to be made into law, perhaps you should analyze why your fellow citizens don't seem too enamored of doing what you want instead of pathetic QQ about how it doesn't mean anything. And that's all your arguments are, although "arguments" is probably giving them too much legitimacy. It's just QQ. Nothing more. I'm not getting my way so the problem is the system. Funny how the ideology out of power is the one that QQs the hardest, and the longer out of power, the harder the QQ.
It was just so unfair to Republicans that the minority in the Senate could filibuster legislation and judicial nominees from 2001-2007, and how from 2007-present it is now Democrats complaining about the unfairness of the filibuster. It's all the same. Funny how in the late 19th and early 20th centuries it was the labor movement that was QQing about how the system was unfair, and how since then it has largely been capital that has done the QQing. There are literally dozens of examples. And yet, somehow, things changed. Despite the system being oh-so-unfair, both sides of any given issue have gotten victories as well as losses.
It's only when the losses occur that the victories are forgotten and the system becomes unfair. When you're winning, that's certainly not unfair, is it?
Mommy won' t let you stick your hand in the cookie jar, so Mommy is unfair.
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This is why I like Switzerland s political system. We never Vote for 1 Person we vote for 200 people, well we vote per Kanton (like a state) so we only get to vote for a certain amount of those 200. And we vote for another 46 (2 per Kanton).
I like this system because the 200 people are not necessary wealthy, some of them are lawyers and some are farmers.
But I get your point and it bugs me as well, it's not really motivating anyone to go vote for the guy with the most money.
To the other point of not voting because it would not make a difference is like saying: "This plane will fly regardless if I am on it or not" (Assuming you don't like flying with a Plane while you could have taken the train)
And I also think it affects other people around you, because if you are motivated to vote you might be able to motivate others to vote and ofc also the other way around.
But I think you still should vote for your favorite candidate, just because we are lucky to have a semi democracy and actually get to vote.
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Just thought I'd share this graph of voter turnout trends.
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/Turnout.png)
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On March 02 2012 22:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:Good job contradicting your entire assertion in your first sentence. What is the ability to threaten power in the democratic system, if voting is not it?
Read the post I was responding to. He was talking about voting for third parties, which is nearly always pointless. Throwing your vote away is not a way to threaten those in power.
On March 02 2012 22:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:Sorry that your particular political opinions seem unable to garner support that is strong enough to be made into law, perhaps you should analyze why your fellow citizens don't seem too enamored of doing what you want instead of pathetic QQ about how it doesn't mean anything. And that's all your arguments are, although "arguments" is probably giving them too much legitimacy. It's just QQ. Nothing more. I'm not getting my way so the problem is the system. Funny how the ideology out of power is the one that QQs the hardest, and the longer out of power, the harder the QQ.
What the fuck are you talking about? The fact that voting rarely has any effect isn't QQ, it's a statement of fact.
How in the world did you decide that I'm support an "ideology out of power", when I don't identify with any political party? What "ideology" did you somehow conclude that I support?
On March 02 2012 22:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:It's only when the losses occur that the victories are forgotten and the system becomes unfair. When you're winning, that's certainly not unfair, is it?
Did you confuse me for someone else? When did I ever complain that the system was unfair?
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What the fuck are you talking about? The fact that voting rarely has any effect isn't QQ, it's a statement of fact.
Before proclaiming it a fact, you might want to provide even the slightest bit of backing for it.
Plenty of things have changed in the USA as a result of voting and popular protest.
Your suggestion that what the USA really need is to decapitate some of its elected officials is beyond foolish. It's childish.
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On March 02 2012 23:14 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +What the fuck are you talking about? The fact that voting rarely has any effect isn't QQ, it's a statement of fact. Before proclaiming it a fact, you might want to provide even the slightest bit of backing for it. Plenty of things have changed in the USA as a result of voting and popular protest. Your suggestion that what the USA really need is to decapitate some of its elected officials is beyond foolish. It's childish.
You aren't even trying anymore zalz, come on.
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On March 02 2012 23:14 zalz wrote:Before proclaiming it a fact, you might want to provide even the slightest bit of backing for it.
The paradox of voting is well-established as fact by academics.
On March 02 2012 23:14 zalz wrote:Plenty of things have changed in the USA as a result of voting and popular protest.
Obviously. That's not the point being discussed here, which is that the benefits of voting to an individual citizen are outweighed by the costs except in rare circumstances where a race is closely contested.
On March 02 2012 23:14 zalz wrote:Your suggestion that what the USA really need is to decapitate some of its elected officials is beyond foolish. It's childish.
When the fuck did I suggest that?
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Democracy is the best government in the long run for unscrupulous people and corporations to deceive and get their way.
It's a government of and by actors - In the name of freedom: and so you can't argue against it...
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For me, voting is more about spreading a good mindset about voting rather than trying to affect the current election outcome. I'd rather tell all my friends that I'm going to vote and then not actually do it, than telling my friends that I'm not going to vote and then secretly sneak away and do it.
I simple believe that election outcomes become better the more people that vote. And I believe that how people talk about it is more important than how they act(vote).
Then again, if you live in one of the heavily skewed states of US, with the amazing democratic system you have over there, I can understand the frustration. But I'd probably vote anyway.
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I remember this one Jon Stewart quote - "To the people that think their vote counts - imagine your vote is a deer tick. Now imagine the presidential election is the continent of Asia."
At any rate, I think doing away with the electoral college and counting votes - we have the technology to accurately count the millions of votes these days - would get a lot more people to vote, because they aren't voting Republican in a blue state or voting Democrat in a red state anymore - they're voting against the whole country which is relatively purple.
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you know what the saddest thing is about this thread? it's that there have been people in here that have written over 1,000 words justifying why they shouldn't vote, or why they don't vote, or why their vote doesn't matter. in my life, i've probably met ~100 people that feel that exact same way. i've noticed that they are all willing to spend, on average, 30-60 minutes arguing about it.
if you spent 30-60 minutes on arguing why the issues you care about should be payed attention to, and each wrote a 1,000 word letter to your congressman, your senator, and the President; you might get something done. you might see some results. if you were willing to put in half the effort you put in on convincing us that you shouldn't vote because it doesn't change anything on actually changing something, you might actually see what you want.
i don't know why i'm wasting my time on this, because the honest truth is, 90% of the people who feel that way, who feel that their vote doesn't matter for whatever reason; 90% of them disagree with me politically. they would vote for and support things and candidates that i wouldn't. so i guess i should be thanking all of you. if you all decided to actually do something instead of being apathetic, i might have to do more than vote and give minimal effort. but you won't. you wanna know why you won't? because you don't actually care. when people really care about an issue, they are willing to put in effort for that issue. but you people aren't willing to put in the five minutes it takes to register to vote and the five minutes it takes to actually vote. half of you won't even vote for local elections, where 1 vote does matter, and where you actually can change things. the other half is willing to vote for local elections, but won't even take the one and a half extra second to put a pen on a paper and mark down the candidate you would rather have.
then you come in here and complain that the system doesn't recognize you? you put in almost no effort when you just vote. in what fantasy world does almost no effort give you huge results? in what fantasy world should you be able to do absolutely nothing at all for yourself, but still get the results you want? and instead of saying: "ok, maybe my one vote doesn't make a huge difference, maybe i should put in a little more effort if i really care"; you're gonna go out and spend all that effort and all that time telling us why we shouldn't vote. and what did you change, except for gauranteeing that you will never get what you want? but that's the saddest thing, is that you will sometimes get what you want, whether you know it or not, because of all of us who do go out there and vote and campaign and lobby for you. you give us the responsibility for yourself and then you complain because you don't feel represented? well then go out there and force them to represent you. and don't give me this bs about "i can't do anything!". there are a million and a half things you could do, but you don't want to do them because they require more than ten minutes of your time.
but again, why am i saying this? you people don't agree with me politically, i can already tell. if you took one tenth the effort you put in telling me why the system is broken and put that effort into "fixing" the system, i would never get what i want. so on behalf of all those candidates and policies that you hate, let me thank you for not voting, and not lobbying, and not campaigning, and not putting in the slightest effort. let me thank your friends who do the same. let me thank the people who spend a million dollars making a documentary about it, the people who write 3 articles about it, the people who spend more time whining about the system than they do trying to fix it. let me not only thank you, let me encourage you to keep not voting, to keep whining, to keep complaining, and to keep doing nothing.
why should any of us care about anything that you want? you won't even put in the tiniest shred of effort and time into caring about it.
"oh but the electoral college!?!"
that's the system we use. that's the system we have always used. you want to complain now because the guy you didn't like didn't win, or because you live in a state that doesn't agree with you poltically? well boohoo. i'm a conservative republican in CALIFORNIA! don't come crying to me about a state's electoral votes going toward the candidate you don't like. don't come complaining to me about candidates you like ignoring your state because it's already a lost cause for them. and don't come crying to me about the electoral system when you won't spend three minutes finding out who the hell doesn't like the electoral system and voting for them, and supporting them, and rallying for them. god forbid that you do, because i hate the idea of a popular vote system. but you all love it! if you love it so much, why don't you support it?
and don't even try to give me the argument of "oh but it will never change anyway."
so what? so the world should always give you what you want? you want it this way so we should all just bend over backward to give you it without you putting in a shred of effort? you don't even try to change it, who the hell are you to tell us that we should? you know why you don't change it? because you like it. you like having an excuse as to why you should get something for nothing.
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I think the reason people vote here in the US is so they have a right to complain about it. Because if you don't vote, you have no right to complain. 
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I am reading a LOT of things kind of bashing on ppl that say voting doesn't matter.. well lets see Does a country really want the right for our government to establish a military presents anywhere in the united states? I would say that most of our country doesn't .. does our country really think that Marijuana is a HORRID drug? I really dont think our country thinks its that bad compared to other HORRID drugs... people keep saying that the Government does care about what the people think... The people have been taken out of the action. Change isnt done by voting like we think it is.. change is done like we handled SOPA however ... SOPA isn't over yet and if you think it is you are wrong.
The American people have to STAND UP to the problem we face in our country... and we dont we think that voting for a new president will make shit better it doesn't. That president has the interests of the Major Company that put him in that office and gave him MILLIONS of dollars for his campaign. Even Obama we fell for the "change" part when he just made things a lot worse.. Now people are saying "I don't care who is in office just as long as its not Obama" so they pick Romney problem is Romney agrees with almost everything Obama has done.
VOTING isn't the problem to be honest its the people of America turning blind eyes to a lot of issues we dont address. If we want something done we have to do it... but we are busy working paying bills and taking care of families ... I am not saying don't vote.. I am not saying voting matters or doesn't matter. I am saying there needs to be something done and we are arguing over the wrong thing.
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Without the electoral college system in place you would see presidential races spend 90 percent of their time in Texas, NY, and Cali and candidates wouldn't give a shit what someone in Iowa thinks.
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On March 03 2012 01:03 SeizeTheDay wrote:
I am reading a LOT of things kind of bashing on ppl that say voting doesn't matter.. well lets see Does a country really want the right for our government to establish a military presents anywhere in the united states? I would say that most of our country doesn't .. does our country really think that Marijuana is a HORRID drug? I really dont think our country thinks its that bad compared to other HORRID drugs... people keep saying that the Government does care about what the people think... The people have been taken out of the action. Change isnt done by voting like we think it is.. change is done like we handled SOPA however ... SOPA isn't over yet and if you think it is you are wrong.
The American people have to STAND UP to the problem we face in our country... and we dont we think that voting for a new president will make shit better it doesn't. That president has the interests of the Major Company that put him in that office and gave him MILLIONS of dollars for his campaign. Even Obama we fell for the "change" part when he just made things a lot worse.. Now people are saying "I don't care who is in office just as long as its not Obama" so they pick Romney problem is Romney agrees with almost everything Obama has done.
VOTING isn't the problem to be honest its the people of America turning blind eyes to a lot of issues we dont address. If we want something done we have to do it... but we are busy working paying bills and taking care of families ... I am not saying don't vote.. I am not saying voting matters or doesn't matter. I am saying there needs to be something done and we are arguing over the wrong thing.
I am sure rallying behind the "voting doesn't matter people" instead of telling them otherwise will accomplish those goals...
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On March 03 2012 01:15 Smat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 01:03 SeizeTheDay wrote:
I am reading a LOT of things kind of bashing on ppl that say voting doesn't matter.. well lets see Does a country really want the right for our government to establish a military presents anywhere in the united states? I would say that most of our country doesn't .. does our country really think that Marijuana is a HORRID drug? I really dont think our country thinks its that bad compared to other HORRID drugs... people keep saying that the Government does care about what the people think... The people have been taken out of the action. Change isnt done by voting like we think it is.. change is done like we handled SOPA however ... SOPA isn't over yet and if you think it is you are wrong.
The American people have to STAND UP to the problem we face in our country... and we dont we think that voting for a new president will make shit better it doesn't. That president has the interests of the Major Company that put him in that office and gave him MILLIONS of dollars for his campaign. Even Obama we fell for the "change" part when he just made things a lot worse.. Now people are saying "I don't care who is in office just as long as its not Obama" so they pick Romney problem is Romney agrees with almost everything Obama has done.
VOTING isn't the problem to be honest its the people of America turning blind eyes to a lot of issues we dont address. If we want something done we have to do it... but we are busy working paying bills and taking care of families ... I am not saying don't vote.. I am not saying voting matters or doesn't matter. I am saying there needs to be something done and we are arguing over the wrong thing. I am sure rallying behind the "voting doesn't matter people" instead of telling them otherwise will accomplish those goals...
Maybe you should read again ... and take smart lil comments you have and keep them to your self...
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On March 02 2012 22:12 TemujinGK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 22:10 NoobSkills wrote:On March 02 2012 02:47 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Only considering national elections. President, senator, etc.
I live in the USA, and I have never voted, though I've been of age for the last three presidential elections. At first it was because I lived in a state which has always been completely lopsided for one party. I felt like my vote didn't matter, which I realize is a point that many will argue. But, fu, the fact is that my state would elect republicans for national offices no matter what, period.
In the past few years, however, my reasons have changed a bit. Now I realize that I just have no faith in the electoral system. As much as I hate sounding like a long-boarding, clove-smoking,, hipster douche, I feel like the fact of the matter is that the wealthy elite of the country really do control everything. Business moguls and celebrities become senators, governors, and president. Our laws, regulations, and taxes are thought up and created by people who are wealthy and powerful. They've proven time and time again that they're willing to use their position to advance their own ends.
And of course, lobbyists. Whatever company, group, or individual has the most money can trade that cash in for political influence. Oil companies wine, dine, and bribe for the rights to drill in previously protected environmental areas. Religions collect hundreds of billions annually, tax-free mind you, and then turn around and pump that money right back into congress to support bills that they find morally correct.
I know that this is nothing new. Classes have existed since the beginning of civilization. What's infuriating is that Democracy is touted as a government of the people, where decisions and policies are made based on the will of the general public.
It's not. That's why I don't vote.
Is this a blog? In the end whoever gets in doesn't really matter. Sure some of their ideas lean towards left/right, but what difference does it make to the individual in their daily life? I live in South Carolina, so no use voting I see your point there. Also we're not a democracy. A true democracy means everyone votes on everything which isn't possible. Holy shit is this a horrible cycle. Civic inactivity leads to civic ignorance which leads to civic inactivity, and that is what you find yourself in. You as a US citizen should know that you don't live in a democracy, you live in a Republic, as defined by the constitution and all subsequent legislative affirmations. There are substantial gaps between left and right candidates, you should educate yourself on some of them, and make an appropriate voting action based on your personal beliefs. If everyone was like you then we would be in an even worse state than we are in presently.
I forget what the name is, but for years and years there has been only certain types of candidates that are chosen into office - those are are neither completely leftist or rightist. there is a long running trend that everyone who will get elected will be more towards the middle of the road, so what you said is pretty much invalid.
also, it's funny when people think what the president says they're going to do actually means anything - they don't actually know the true power of the president. they get lied to because during the campaign the president will say they're going to make this illegal, this legal, and change this, when in reality it's up to the house and senate to decide what happens.
On March 03 2012 01:12 Smat wrote:
Without the electoral college system in place you would see presidential races spend 90 percent of their time in Texas, NY, and Cali and candidates wouldn't give a shit what someone in Iowa thinks.
the entire reason the electoral college system was set up was for the elite to make sure that the lower class citizens would be able to change nothing. the more you know.
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EPT
