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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 26 2018 09:13 superstartran wrote: And the UK homicide stats would look quite differently if they recorded them like the FBI does. As would many other countries. Citation please and please show your work. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 26 2018 09:15 Plansix wrote: Citation please and please show your work. Homicide Index data are based on the year when the offence was recorded as a crime, not when the offence took place or when the case was heard in court. While in the vast majority of cases the offence will be recorded in the same year as it took place, this is not always the case. Caution is therefore needed when looking at longer-term homicide trend figures. For example, the 172 homicides attributed to Dr Harold Shipman as a result of Dame Janet Smith’s inquiry took place over a long period of time but were all recorded by the police during the year ending March 2003. Also, where several people are killed by the same suspect, the number of homicides counted is the total number of victims killed rather than the number of incidents. For example, the victims of the Cumbrian shootings committed by Derrick Bird on 2 June 2010 are counted as 12 homicides rather than one incident in the year ending March 2011 data. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2016/homicide AFAIK also, the ONS also happens to just magically not include Scotland and Northern Ireland in their statistics. | ||
KwarK
United States43987 Posts
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KwarK
United States43987 Posts
On May 26 2018 09:13 superstartran wrote: In the vast majority of cases the offence will be recorded in the same year as it took place The Harold Shipman exception they mention is similar to pointing out that September 2001 may be misleading when looking at homicides in New York. When comparing 2015 to 2015 (for example) neither would apply. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
So unless you're saying that the UK fails to report 80% of its homicides every year, I'm not sure what your argument is supposed to be. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 26 2018 09:28 WolfintheSheep wrote: The US has about 5x as many homicides as the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country So unless you're saying that the UK fails to report 80% of its homicides every year, I'm not sure what your argument is supposed to be. My argument is that you cannot just cross compare homicide rates because of how both sides report homicide. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On May 26 2018 09:30 superstartran wrote: My argument is that you cannot just cross compare homicide rates because of how both sides report homicide. Again, unless you're claiming that the UK's system causes an under-reporting of 500%, I fail to see how your quotes are remotely relevant. Monthly trends may be off. Yearly trends could be off by several percentage points. But there would need to be about 2500 forgotten murdered people every year in the UK to come close to the US'. Of 13000 made-up American murders. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On May 26 2018 07:43 superstartran wrote: Neither Plansix (nor anyone else for that matter that I noticed) argued: "Bring on fully automatic weapons!" like you keep claiming.That pisses me off big time though. They are absolutely hypocritical, want to ban bumpstocks (which I actually agree with, there's 0 reason to have a fully automatic weapon), but then suddenly want to say it's ok to have relatively easy access to fully automatics? What? What multiple people argued is fully automatic weapons would be totally fine, if combined with a similar approach to guns in general like for example Switzerland. You can't just take the first portion of that sentence and pretend the stance of the other side is hypocritical because they would be massively against fully automatic weapons for civilians under the current laws and approaches the US has. Well, you can. But that sounds quite a bit like this selective reading and cherry picking you seem to be strongly against. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9057 Posts
On May 26 2018 09:36 WolfintheSheep wrote: Again, unless you're claiming that the UK's system causes an under-reporting of 500%, I fail to see how your quotes are remotely relevant. Monthly trends may be off. Yearly trends could be off by several percentage points. But there would need to be about 2500 forgotten murdered people every year in the UK to come close to the US'. Of 13000 made-up American murders. If a person dies in the US due to gun deaths, it is reported and logged. If you are convicted of murder in the UK, it is logged. Unsolved murders or missing persons could be a case for that error. I can see his argument in that way. But still, it's hard to compare the two and say the UK is anywhere close to the US. If we compare gun related crimes, to knife related crimes, then maybe the UK is on par. We also have to be careful to not include involuntary manslaughter into that. Just trying to give super some benefit of the doubt here. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 26 2018 09:59 r.Evo wrote: Neither Plansix (nor anyone else for that matter that I noticed) argued: "Bring on fully automatic weapons!" like you keep claiming. What multiple people argued is fully automatic weapons would be totally fine, if combined with a similar approach to guns in general like for example Switzerland. You can't just take the first portion of that sentence and pretend the stance of the other side is hypocritical because they would be massively against fully automatic weapons for civilians under the current laws and approaches the US has. Well, you can. But that sounds quite a bit like this selective reading and cherry picking you seem to be strongly against. The current approach for fully automatic weapons in the U.S. is much more strict than in Switzerland. Also, you cannot with a straight bold face tell me you want to ban assault weapons/ban bump stocks/high capacity magazines, etc. but suddenly be ok with laws that are arguably more laxed in some ways then even the U.S. laws. Silencers for example are almost practically impossible to get in the U.S. Not saying you, I'm saying everyone else here who is suddenly pro-Swiss gun laws which wouldn't have prevented most of the mass shootings in the first place. And he did say "bring on fully automatic weapons the police can deal with them." | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12461 Posts
So, what do you think of the swiss system, would you like to see it implemented in the US? | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 26 2018 13:39 Nebuchad wrote: Yeah that's all very interesting. So, what do you think of the swiss system, would you like to see it implemented in the US? Couldn't implement registry without blowing up the 2nd Amendment. I've already gone over why. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haynes_v._United_States Good luck with that. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8865 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 26 2018 14:04 evilfatsh1t wrote: i have to give massive respect to superstratran for standing up for his opinions. youre literally playing 1 v everyone in this thread, in my opinion, getting dumpstered, and youre still arguing. good for you mate Good thing no one here has proven anything. It's the same ol "man brah guns are bad" arguments repetitively. On May 26 2018 09:36 WolfintheSheep wrote: Again, unless you're claiming that the UK's system causes an under-reporting of 500%, I fail to see how your quotes are remotely relevant. Monthly trends may be off. Yearly trends could be off by several percentage points. But there would need to be about 2500 forgotten murdered people every year in the UK to come close to the US'. Of 13000 made-up American murders. Control for a few things and you'll find that it's actually the comparisons are quite equal. If you for example were just simply comparing white America to white UK (which you know, makes up over like 90% of the UK) you'll find that both of their statistics are quite comparable, and in fact if I remember right, depending on the years, there's less homicide for the U.S. then the U.K. if you're simply comparing the white populations. It's one you start adding the African American population that you start to have serious issues, since you know, like 15% of the country commits over 50% of the homicides in America. It's a statistical fact too that African Americans commit far more crime/murders then any other ethnic group in America. Obviously this is due to numerous factors like poor education, poverty, disenfranchisement, etc. So before anyone goes and claims I'm a racist for whatever reason, you can look at the FBI 2016 statistics by race down below. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21 When you start considering that white males are the dominant group that owns guns, and yet aren't killing each other with guns all the time (at least, not at statistically significant levels compared to the total population), should probably tell you that guns really aren't the issue. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12461 Posts
On May 26 2018 14:00 superstartran wrote: Couldn't implement registry without blowing up the 2nd Amendment. I've already gone over why. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haynes_v._United_States Good luck with that. "Look at the swiss system, it works, so clearly it's not about the guns it's about the culture." "So would you like to change the culture to get to something that works, like the swiss system?" "Oh no of course not." | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8865 Posts
On May 26 2018 14:07 superstartran wrote: Good thing no one here has proven anything. It's the same ol "man brah guns are bad" arguments repetitively. there is no definitive proof, there cant be. there can only be convincing arguments for and against | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 26 2018 14:11 Nebuchad wrote: "Look at the swiss system, it works, so clearly it's not about the guns it's about the culture." "So would you like to change the culture to get to something that works, like the swiss system?" "Oh no of course not." You asked about what I would like to implement from the Swiss law system, not about Swiss gun culture. Changing gun culture is a dramatically different question, and much harder to accomplish. Part of the reason why Swiss gun culture works / is fine is because of the fact that military service is a requirement, so pretty much everyone understands the basic operations of a gun, the capabilities of guns, and how to respect it. Requiring a 6 week mandatory course before getting a gun would probably be the first step into accomplishing that goal. The national registry laws would be struck down as unconstitutional under current interpretation of the constitution. Haynes vs U.S. pretty much already shuts down most state gun registry schemes. Without national registry, the license/permit system pretty much is worthless. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12461 Posts
On May 26 2018 14:23 superstartran wrote: You asked about what I would like to implement from the Swiss law system, not about Swiss gun culture. Changing gun culture is a dramatically different question, and much harder to accomplish. Part of the reason why Swiss gun culture works / is fine is because of the fact that military service is a requirement, so pretty much everyone understands the basic operations of a gun, the capabilities of guns, and how to respect it. Requiring a 6 week mandatory course before getting a gun would probably be the first step into accomplishing that goal. The national registry laws would be struck down as unconstitutional under current interpretation of the constitution. Haynes vs U.S. pretty much already shuts down most state gun registry schemes. Without national registry, the license/permit system pretty much is worthless. I didn't ask you if the law could pass tomorrow, I asked you if you would be in favor of it. The military service, I guess it can have some influence but it's not really what you think it is. One third of us ditch it, then in the percentage that actually does the service a bunch of people don't fire guns, you could be a cook or play in the brass band or be in communications, and so on. The laws play a much bigger part. | ||
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KwarK
United States43987 Posts
On May 26 2018 14:14 evilfatsh1t wrote: there is no definitive proof, there cant be. there can only be convincing arguments for and against I feel like there is pretty definitive proof on the whole "is the UK in the grips of a knifing epidemic" question. | ||
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