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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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GreenManalishi
Canada834 Posts
On January 04 2013 06:05 StarStrider wrote: With 2 exceptions, in the past 50 years every single mass shooting (4+ people dead) has taken place within a gun free zone. This should tell us something. That correlation doesn't imply causation? | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
On January 04 2013 21:04 fight_or_flight wrote: Here's an important point to consider in any gun debate involving the recent mass shootings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZPS7AdgNgE I'm a little dense, so please forgive me. I don't understand how a video that raises conspiracy theory-esque speculation about the number of shooters involved is an important point to consider. Whether there was 1 shooter or 20, I don't understand how it affects the gun debate and the recent shootings. Can you please explain it to me? | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On January 04 2013 07:31 GreenManalishi wrote: That correlation doesn't imply causation? Surely you're not arguing that it is mere coincidence? | ||
micronesia
United States24701 Posts
On January 05 2013 11:56 StarStrider wrote: Surely you're not arguing that it is mere coincidence? Well you were implying more than what you said... that it should 'tell us something.' The obvious implication is that gun free zones attract mass shootings and thus we should not have gun free zones. Of course, it is actually much more complicated than that. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
My second guess is that crowded places are often gun free zones. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13990 Posts
Statistics are in the end just evidence and not definite proof. That being said though you can't just cast one off beacuse there isn't anything to contradict it. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On January 05 2013 12:00 Rassy wrote: My first guess is that people who are going for a mass shooting, are going to crowded places. My second guess is that crowded places are often gun free zones. ya, Gun free zones, or zones with exercised gun control are put in places where the damage or chance of shootings is considered as high. Locations with high density of people in a small area, like schools, or locations witch contains high valuable objects, like banks. If someone would want to kill allot of people or steal something with the help of weapons then this are the places they would go to. And they would do this regardless if it was a gun free zone or not. | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
On January 05 2013 12:21 Integra wrote: ya, Gun free zones, or zones with exercised gun control are put in places where the damage or chance of shootings is considered as high. Locations with high density of people in a small area, like schools, or locations witch contains high valuable objects, like banks. If someone would want to kill allot of people or steal something with the help of weapons then this are the places they would go to. And they would do this regardless if it was a gun free zone or not. So what's the point of a gun free zone again? | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
1: Why is this thread still running? 2: Oh, look... people are actually not just bashing. There is a ton of great points from both sides 3: Oh nvm... 'merica-bashing, stubborness and general internet lingo is cruising on... Usually, I would just tap into another thread... But this time I just felt I had to address it... It's cool when you can discuss things... But man, there's a lot of bashing - from both sides... | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On January 05 2013 12:42 heliusx wrote: So what's the point of a gun free zone again? If the topic still is suicidal mass shooting, It prolly has very little effect since the culprit who kills himself afterwards won't worry too much about any law he might brake. I mean you can't exactly sentence him to death since... he is already dead. | ||
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micronesia
United States24701 Posts
On January 05 2013 13:47 Integra wrote: If the topic still is suicidal mass shooting, It prolly has very little effect since the culprit who kills himself afterwards won't worry too much about any law he might brake. I mean you can't exactly sentence him to death since... he is already dead. It is possible that a reason why mass shooters are attracted to gun free zones is because they know the odds of someone getting in their way are small. In other words, it's possible having no crowded place where it's unlikely to encounter an opponent with a comparable weapon would reduce attempts at mass shootings. On the other hand, it's difficult to prove this one way or the other due to confounding variables. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On January 05 2013 13:48 micronesia wrote: It is possible that a reason why mass shooters are attracted to gun free zones is because they know the odds of someone getting in their way are small. In other words, it's possible having no crowded place where it's unlikely to encounter an opponent with a comparable weapon would reduce attempts at mass shootings. On the other hand, it's difficult to prove this one way or the other due to confounding variables. Are you sure? I know of gun free zones that has armed guards and metal detectors and such around the or close to the gun free zone? Or am i totally wrong here. To me it would be more risky shooting people close to those who are trained for this kind of situation compared to just go to some random place with "regular" random people. | ||
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micronesia
United States24701 Posts
On January 05 2013 13:51 Integra wrote: Are you sure? I know of gun free zones that has armed guards and metal detectors and such around the or close to the gun free zone? Or am i totally wrong here. To me it would be more risky shooting people close to those who are trained for this kind of situation compared to just go to some random place with "regular" random people. Yea gun free zones have exceptions such as police officers, but the gun free zones near me don't have any guns that I'm aware of. | ||
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iplayBANJO
United States129 Posts
On January 05 2013 12:48 Mentalizor wrote: ...every time I see this thread the same thoughts go through my mind: 1: Why is this thread still running? 2: Oh, look... people are actually not just bashing. There is a ton of great points from both sides 3: Oh nvm... 'merica-bashing, stubborness and general internet lingo is cruising on... Usually, I would just tap into another thread... But this time I just felt I had to address it... It's cool when you can discuss things... But man, there's a lot of bashing - from both sides... There's always a lot of meaningless insults floating around internet discussions. This particular discussion though has a high enough percentage of thoughtful, or at least sincere discussion that I keep coming back to it. As far as stubbornness is concerned, you should never expect people to be flexible in their beliefs. No one here is expecting to change anyone else's mind, just hoping both to better understand opposing viewpoints and illuminate their own as not being ignorant or irrelevant. I will say however, that the frequency with which people use YouTube videos to voice their own opinions is a little disturbing. If I can't properly summarize a point, then I probably don't understand it well enough to formulate a decent enough argument to add to the ongoing discussion. Although there have only been a few in the last couple of pages, I personally am a little disappointed every time I see a YouTube box loading here. On January 05 2013 12:42 heliusx wrote: So what's the point of a gun free zone again? I think the only official "gun free zones" in the United States are public schools. There's exceptions made for on-duty law enforcement and other properly certified security employees, but it's the only example I know of where the majority of individuals, who are otherwise legally permitted to carry firearms, are not allowed to do so. It's my understanding that the media's labeling of other areas where it is often asked of people to not carry firearms, it is not a legal obligation. Some places of business have policies about open carry and will not allow you to enter based on it being private property, and news programs may label them as "gun free zones" even when they are not. The real interesting part of these gun free zones is the radius outside actual school property that is still considered a school zone, and is thus "gun free". I believe it has been ruled that individuals living within the school zone still maintain their constitutional right to own a firearm, but apparently lose their right to carry it; as carrying it into or out of their place of residence becomes an illegal activity. Again though, all of this is from research done out of personal curiosity revolving around discussions I have at gun ranges. I am in no way an expert on any of this, and might be completely misinformed or mistaken. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On January 05 2013 13:58 micronesia wrote: Yea gun free zones have exceptions such as police officers, but the gun free zones near me don't have any guns that I'm aware of. So some zones has exceptions, some have not, interesting. And for the record; I've only been in two gun free zones ever, so my experience should be considered limited. | ||
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micronesia
United States24701 Posts
On January 05 2013 14:02 Integra wrote: So some zones has exceptions, some have not, interesting. No, the rules are the same for all of them. The question is whether or not personnel that meet the exceptions actually are on premises. | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
On January 05 2013 13:47 Integra wrote: If the topic still is suicidal mass shooting, It prolly has very little effect since the culprit who kills himself afterwards won't worry too much about any law he might brake. I mean you can't exactly sentence him to death since... he is already dead. Pretty much, even if it isn't a murder suicide thing people who have the intention to use firearms in gun free zones are going to use them regardless of any laws, signs, or prayers. It does nothing to fix the problem and is not a rational idea considering the current situation in america. On January 05 2013 13:59 iplayBANJO wrote: I will say however, that the frequency with which people use YouTube videos to voice their own opinions is a little disturbing. If I can't properly summarize a point, then I probably don't understand it well enough to formulate a decent enough argument to add to the ongoing discussion. Although there have only been a few in the last couple of pages, I personally am a little disappointed every time I see a YouTube box loading here. Yes... I hate those posts. Whether it's due to sheer laziness or inability to articulate your actual opinions, people are going to assume the latter and ignore "your thoughts". | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
On January 05 2013 13:48 micronesia wrote: It is possible that a reason why mass shooters are attracted to gun free zones is because they know the odds of someone getting in their way are small. In other words, it's possible having no crowded place where it's unlikely to encounter an opponent with a comparable weapon would reduce attempts at mass shootings. On the other hand, it's difficult to prove this one way or the other due to confounding variables. Armed civilians are actually a better deterrent. A shooter can quickly scan a crowd, spot the security, and either shoot them first, or try to avoid them. Civilians armed with concealed weapons are much harder to spot, and thus harder to counter. Even if that doesn't turn out to be a big deal, any deterrent has to be better than no deterrent, right? Every gun-free zone I've ever seen, save for the DMV, had either no armed guards, or far too few to really cover the whole zone. | ||
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Destine3
United States12 Posts
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