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On January 11 2013 03:03 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:56 TheBB wrote:On January 11 2013 02:27 Mikau wrote: I decided to try this out recently as well (after finishing A song of ice and fire). I quit halfway through the first book. Everything seems really slow and tame I don't recognise this at all. More action happens in the first half of Eye of the World than all of Game of Thrones. Like what? I liked the start where they get invaded by (sorry, I forgot names) the orc like creatures and the wannabe Nazgul, but after that it all just seemed like a lot of running while being chased by said creatures. Maybe I gave up on it too soon, but I felt it didn't even come close to all the intrigue, plots and subplots and subtlety of even the first GoT. I might give it another chance after my exams, but I'm also having fun rereading GoT (and picking up on all the clues I missed the first read-through). Well, just off the top of my head (not sure exactly where the midpoint lies tbh):
+ Show Spoiler +Attacked by shadowspawn seven times. Attacked by Mashadar. Attacked by darkfriends twice. Attacked and captured by whitecloaks. Rescue operation. At least three freaky dreams.
And in GoT:
+ Show Spoiler +Prologue fight with Others. Kid attempted killed twice. Dwarf captured, attacked, released after fight. King dead, throne couped and lord executed. Exiled king also killed.
Did I miss anything? Could be, it's been a while since I read it.
I don't think your problem was pacing. It must have been something else. Sure, WoT is not for everyone, but almost everyone who dislikes it agrees that EotW is not the problem.
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That might have been my problem yeah. I remember thinking "I'm halfway through the first book, and nobody has died yet, or pushed out of a window, and no incest either. Well this sucks". I remember having the same problem after reading Harry Potter for the first time. I used to read a LOT when I was a kid but after Harry Potter everything seemed to suck so I just kept rereading those time after time after time. I hope GoT won't have the same effect on me.
On that note: are there any other fantasy series where either the writer isn't afraid to kill off characters (bonus points if they're important characters) or where the story isn't as linear as (the start of) Wheel of Time is?
On that note, does Wheel of Time get less linear at some point? Instead of the whole fellowship moving from a to b thing. Last thing I remember reading was the group fleeing out of the haunted city and being forced to split, with some people ending up on a boat and the rest going god knows where.
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On January 11 2013 03:18 Mikau wrote: On that note, does Wheel of Time get less linear at some point? Instead of the whole fellowship moving from a to b thing. Last thing I remember reading was the group fleeing out of the haunted city and being forced to split, with some people ending up on a boat and the rest going god knows where. People split up in books 2 and 3, though they are gathered again at the ending both times. For the rest of the series, the main characters are never all in the same place again.
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I think it's only fair I give it another shot. I probably should let go of the GoT idea a bit. I just thought both the intrigue/plotting and the killing off of seemingly important characters really refreshing to read. I can't recall being as upset by a book as whenever GRRM killed someone I liked, or as invested in the characters I hoped wouldn't die. Most other fantasy books I read you just kind of know that everything is going to be alright in the end.
edit: Pleaes don't misunderstand me. I *want* to like Wheel of Time. I love fantasy and I love it when series go on for so long you just have thousands of pages of getting to know everything about that world and the characters in it. The longer a series goes on for the better imo. It's just that what I read so far didn't do it for me, just like LotR didn't do it for me. I'm hoping that might change if I finish the first book.
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I know, I liked it too. Then, by the time aDwD rolled around, it was getting a bit tiring that nothing nice ever happens to anyone, ever.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On January 11 2013 03:18 Mikau wrote:
On that note: are there any other fantasy series where either the writer isn't afraid to kill off characters (bonus points if they're important characters) or where the story isn't as linear as (the start of) Wheel of Time is?
There are plenty of series where main characters or a lot of characters die really quickly, but that doesn't necessarily make them good reads. I feel what separates Martin from other writers is that you can tell in his writing how attached he is to a lot of them and when they die a bit of him is physically hurt. But he still pulls the plug because he knows that's how the story is supposed to go.
+ Show Spoiler + Technically speaking, Ned didn't need to die. The story could have gone on without him dying and just going to the Night's Watch and telling Jon about his parents. All signs pointed him to the NW and Martin still killed him. Not out of anything like shock value or apathy, but because he knew that the anarchy set forth from that 1 event was a much better story going forward than a civil war with Ned safely tucked away at the Wall.
As for a book I'd recommend, it would have to be Lies of Locke Lamora.
+ Show Spoiler +The Thorn of Camorr is said to be an unbeatable swordsman, a master thief, a ghost that walks through walls. Half the city believes him to be a legendary champion of the poor. The other half believe him to be a foolish myth. Nobody has it quite right.
Slightly built, unlucky in love, and barely competent with a sword, Locke Lamora is, much to his annoyance, the fabled Thorn. He certainly didn't invite the rumors that swirl around his exploits, which are actually confidence games of the most intricate sort. And while Locke does indeed steal from the rich (who else, pray tell, would be worth stealing from?), the poor never see a penny of it. All of Locke's gains are strictly for himself and his tight-knit band of thieves, the Gentlemen Bastards.
Locke and company are con artists in an age where con artistry, as we understand it, is a new and unknown style of crime. The less attention anyone pays to them, the better! But a deadly mystery has begun to haunt the ancient city of Camorr, and a clandestine war is threatening to tear the city's underworld, the only home the Gentlemen Bastards have ever known, to bloody shreds. Caught up in a murderous game, Locke and his friends will find both their loyalty and their ingenuity tested to the breaking point as they struggle to stay alive...
You can read the prologue here: http://www.scottlynch.us/excerpts.html
It's a really good prologue.
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On January 11 2013 03:34 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 03:18 Mikau wrote:
On that note: are there any other fantasy series where either the writer isn't afraid to kill off characters (bonus points if they're important characters) or where the story isn't as linear as (the start of) Wheel of Time is?
There are plenty of series where main characters or a lot of characters die really quickly, but that doesn't necessarily make them good reads. I feel what separates Martin from other writers is that you can tell in his writing how attached he is to a lot of them and when they die a bit of him is physically hurt. But he still pulls the plug because he knows that's how the story is supposed to go. + Show Spoiler + Technically speaking, Ned didn't need to die. The story could have gone on without him dying and just going to the Night's Watch and telling Jon about his parents. All signs pointed him to the NW and Martin still killed him. Not out of anything like shock value or apathy, but because he knew that the anarchy set forth from that 1 event was a much better story going forward than a civil war with Ned safely tucked away at the Wall. As for a book I'd recommend, it would have to be Lies of Locke Lamora. + Show Spoiler +The Thorn of Camorr is said to be an unbeatable swordsman, a master thief, a ghost that walks through walls. Half the city believes him to be a legendary champion of the poor. The other half believe him to be a foolish myth. Nobody has it quite right.
Slightly built, unlucky in love, and barely competent with a sword, Locke Lamora is, much to his annoyance, the fabled Thorn. He certainly didn't invite the rumors that swirl around his exploits, which are actually confidence games of the most intricate sort. And while Locke does indeed steal from the rich (who else, pray tell, would be worth stealing from?), the poor never see a penny of it. All of Locke's gains are strictly for himself and his tight-knit band of thieves, the Gentlemen Bastards.
Locke and company are con artists in an age where con artistry, as we understand it, is a new and unknown style of crime. The less attention anyone pays to them, the better! But a deadly mystery has begun to haunt the ancient city of Camorr, and a clandestine war is threatening to tear the city's underworld, the only home the Gentlemen Bastards have ever known, to bloody shreds. Caught up in a murderous game, Locke and his friends will find both their loyalty and their ingenuity tested to the breaking point as they struggle to stay alive... You can read the prologue here: http://www.scottlynch.us/excerpts.htmlIt's a really good prologue. I wasn't saying killing off characters makes a good fantasy book, but I do like the feeling that nobody is safe. The feeling that there might not be a happy ending. I think GoT was the first series that gave/gives me that feeling. Even moreso after the events at the end of ADWD.
Thanks for the link, I'll read it soon. I'll also reread The Eye of the World. At what point would you guys say "if you don't like it now, you'll never like it"?
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
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On January 10 2013 01:35 DreamChaser wrote:
The first 3 books are so far my most favorite it starts out with a bang, but now im on book (8? "Path of Daggers") and i just stopped because its brutally slow. So i guess i would say its up to you really, they are an invesment in time and if theres any reason i will strong hand my way through these next 3 books its because i spent so much time reading the first 7 i want to know the damn story.
Books 8, 9, and 10 are widely considered to far and away be the worst books in the series (9 has a good ending though). I'd suggest either skimming or reading the parts of characters you like. Just hang in there. It gets better with 11 (Knife of Dreams), then the last three are all pretty good.
Also, on an unrelated note (Final book spoilers below)
+ Show Spoiler +Did anyone else really like the way they handled Demandred's battles with Gawyn, Galad, and Lan? When they showed Gawyn going to kill him with the Seanchan ring, I was expecting him to kill Demandred, because surely, Gawyn can't lose. Nope. Well, surely Galad will avenge his fallen brother! Nope.
By the time Lan shows up to fight him, you genuinely don't know or feel confident that he's going to succeed. It made that scene really intense, and it was my favorite part of the whole book.
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+ Show Spoiler +I'm kind of shocked that Lan lived. I'm actually surprised that as this many main characters survived
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On January 12 2013 02:25 KOFgokuon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm kind of shocked that Lan lived. I'm actually surprised that as this many main characters survived
+ Show Spoiler +
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On January 11 2013 03:08 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:04 Gendi2545 wrote: I read the first WoT book more than 10 years ago and loved it, the second was ok, and from there I just remember things getting really slow and drawn out, and every page had some male character thinking how women were impossible to understand. I gave up at about book 6.
The best WoT book I've read by far was some sort of encyclopedia which described the world before the fall and explained more about the angreal etc. It was someone else's copy though, but I remember RJ wasn't the (only?) author. Or alternatively have some women crossing their arms under their breasts and sneering at the "woolen headed lummoxes." I've read the first, second, and fourth, but I find the interactions between the genders very irritating. I guess it's supposed to be 'men and women just can't understand each other' but the series pre-occupation with the concept is over-much for me. That said, I have enjoyed pretty much everything else about the series. I'll wade through a few more this summer if they are available at the regional library. (They have far too few copies.) Haha. I actually actively avoided this series because a publishing blurb on the cover said something like 'what Tolkien began, Robert has mastered." And I was like, screw you. Tolkien is the master. And so years later, after reading 3 books, I still think Tolkien is the master, but I now know that was a publisher thing, not a Robert Jordan thing, so I'm okay with it now
The whole reaching for the one power thing with dominance or subission between genders is also kind of interesting. Lots of things like that in the series.
Sanderson seems a lot more humanistic in his approach though. Honestly I like his books better, though not really because of that, even if I loved the first ones like 10-12 years ago.
Thought it was a worthy ending with the last book. Someone thought Mat had changed for the worse with Sanderson and I agree but I liked his parts in this book.
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On January 12 2013 03:49 Sablar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 03:08 Falling wrote:On January 11 2013 02:04 Gendi2545 wrote: I read the first WoT book more than 10 years ago and loved it, the second was ok, and from there I just remember things getting really slow and drawn out, and every page had some male character thinking how women were impossible to understand. I gave up at about book 6.
The best WoT book I've read by far was some sort of encyclopedia which described the world before the fall and explained more about the angreal etc. It was someone else's copy though, but I remember RJ wasn't the (only?) author. Or alternatively have some women crossing their arms under their breasts and sneering at the "woolen headed lummoxes." I've read the first, second, and fourth, but I find the interactions between the genders very irritating. I guess it's supposed to be 'men and women just can't understand each other' but the series pre-occupation with the concept is over-much for me. That said, I have enjoyed pretty much everything else about the series. I'll wade through a few more this summer if they are available at the regional library. (They have far too few copies.) Haha. I actually actively avoided this series because a publishing blurb on the cover said something like 'what Tolkien began, Robert has mastered." And I was like, screw you. Tolkien is the master. And so years later, after reading 3 books, I still think Tolkien is the master, but I now know that was a publisher thing, not a Robert Jordan thing, so I'm okay with it now The whole reaching for the one power thing with dominance or subission between genders is also kind of interesting. Lots of things like that in the series. Sanderson seems a lot more humanistic in his approach though. Honestly I like his books better, though not really because of that, even if I loved the first ones like 10-12 years ago. Thought it was a worthy ending with the last book. Someone thought Mat had changed for the worse with Sanderson and I agree but I liked his parts in this book.
Yeah, for me the Mat thing really hurt because he was always my favorite character by far.
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lagmaster
United States374 Posts
Finished today.
+ Show Spoiler +Lanfear's death was anticlimactic. I was hoping she would turn to the light. I don't think Faile should've lived, but that might just be my personal bias against her. I also was unsure how to feel about Rand's new power at the end when he lit his tabac just through imagining it lit.
That being said, I enjoyed the quick pace of the book. I think it allowed me to feel the "pulse" of the battle by having so many quick chapters with so much constantly happening. Sanderson is a great writer and I'm very happy with how the series ended, the only wish I have for him as an author is for him to allow for some grittier scenes and some more erotic scenes. Jordan was far more detailed in describing the sex scenes than Sanderson and even Jordan kept those descriptions sparse and vague.
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As my username suggests, I'm madly in love with Lanfear and I wish shit didn't go down like it did
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Finished it last night, wasn't overly happy with it all. Not the worst, not the best.
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@lagmaster + Show Spoiler + I was really glad that rand had some powers at the end. I hate when books end and either the main character loses all their power, chooses never to use it, etc etc to make the world a better place. If i was anyone in these books, I'd keep all my power and while I wouldn't dominate, I would maybe just check in now and then with it. Was cool that Rand could either be stronger now or at least he has some power.
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Finished it. Finally. Mad chills at the final line.
+ Show Spoiler +Lan killing Demandred was awesome. The battles, fighting and tactics were all masterfully done - and that essentially made up the whole of the book. While a lot of the main characters lived, the ones who did didn't feel like they'd avoided death unnaturally. The only one I think I felt should have died, or was in a position that would've made sense for them to die, was Lan. I hadn't expected him to get back up, and when he did at first I assumed he was a hero of the horn. At the same time, happy he did. All in all, a very satisfying ending. I wasn't sure how Jordan/Sanderson was going to make a final battle against what more or less amounts to a deity of darkness work, but the way they pulled it off was quite brilliant. Happy the series ended so well, sad that it has to be over.
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I personally enjoyed it a lot, but found quite a few irritations in aMoL:
+ Show Spoiler + Sanderson likes to have his characters give cheesy motivational speeches, which I found mar the more solemn tone of Jordan's uiniverse (see Galad's speech to the Whitecloaks in ToM, Elayne's speech in aMoL, among others). They just sounded childish/weakly written. I couldn't imagine the characters, as I've known them over the 11 initial books, spontaneously orating like that (ok, Elayne maybe). While the way Demandred dueled with Gawyn, Galad and Lan really cool to read, I found it unrealistic and illogical that two of the most skilled leaders of the Light throw away their lives so rashly. Also, how the hell would they've been able to get so close to Demandred without being seen, even with the ring ter'angreal's powers? Demandreds considerable powers aside, he was surrounded by channelers and guards, who then just happened to not blast them to pieces the second they revealed; this defiance of the Shadow's nature (unmerciful, opportunistic, dishonorable), I think, overexaggerated Demandred's competitive side, making him seem more arrogant and petty than he should have been. The ending was good, but I found the surprise with Rand surviving to be slightly underwhelming. Whilst it was clear that Sanderson was going for a Rand-riding-off-into-the-sunset-at-peace kind of ending, it didn't resolve a lot of things. The dynamic of Rand's bond with the three women, and his death was terrifically understated, and things happened too quickly at the end for my taste. Also, and I've heard this complaint from other reviewers of the book, I felt somewhat cheated that we didn't have some of the ending hints from the previous books tied up with the climax i.e. Nynaeve's healing of someone 3 days dead. Either I don't understand, or it doesn't make sense, but I don't know how Rand logically 'switched souls" with Moridin, leaving him to die as a decoy in the tent, with Rand himself somewhere else? (since he could no longer channel, using the Mirror of Mists and other complicated weaves to disguise and compel Moridin's body were out of the question) Rand's resolution to seal the Bore, after he said something like "the Dark One isn't the problem", was also confusing, since it didn't make an ultimate end to the Dark One's future influence over the world, since it would still be theoretically possible for someone like Lanfear to drill through the Dark One's prison, making another Bore and letting him influence the world again. Perhaps Sanderson was going for a kind of morally neutral resolution (people have to have both good and evil to be human), but I can't judge that since I know Jordan himself had a hand in how the specifics of the ending would play out before his death. But still 5/5, epic read, was really excited throughout the book. Well done Sanderson and Harriet!
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