On December 03 2011 02:43 Prinny-tai wrote: There's nothing wrong with giving something of equal value for what you are receiving, but culture sold through mainstream institutions are worth less then what you pay for them, so they can extract a profit.
A more "fair" from of culture distribution in our society would be something akin to the various humble bundles or so
Simply put, there's no way that would work on a large scale as people would abuse the system and pay significantly less that the products are worth. It's worth noting that most the humble bundles are plagued by people who only pay the bare minimum $0.01 to obtain the games. How fair would that be on a institutional scale for an entire industry where people abuse the system to their own benefit? Essentially you'd only be flipping the scenario you believe to be true so that it favours the broader populace. However, should this occur it will be fairly meaningless as the developers would lose any reason to produce the games as they see all their hard work and time under-valued to the point where it is no longer worth the effort to create games.
The humble bundle 3 now includes a bonus to anyone who can keep up with the average, and then they will add games to the people who payed the average and above. They give the option to pay one cent for a reason, I think they know that some people are cheap, but developers will reward those who spend a bit more.
On December 03 2011 02:20 turdburgler wrote: assuming taking that seat doesnt hurt anyone and it was going to be empty i dont see why its immortal. you are stating its immoral without saying why.
you also rebuffed my claim that putting people out of business isnt inherently immoral the same way. you are just stating things without any explanation
Taking something for nothing without asking or telling is immoral. Even if no one is technically getting hurt, unless you have consent for taking something, or trade money, goods, or services of your own, it's immoral. This is the way it's been for thousands of years. Are you suddenly immune to this morality or above other people? No, you're just ignoring this fact to try to feel better about your actions.
It's not immoral in the same way, because not all morality is the same. It is immoral for you to want something for free and to put people out of a job. By your actions, you are gaining, they are losing. You're also forcing them into this situation by not giving them a choice. They are not choosing to let you pirate. You are choosing your actions, forcing a consequence, and it only benefits you in the long run. That is almost exactly what immorality is.
There's plenty on philosophy elsewhere. If you have such a narrow and self-centered view on morality, and only do anything for your own gain and just say fuck everyone else, then you might want to read up on it.
but the point is im not saying fuck everyone else. these examples specifically state that im not directly hurting anyone and any possible hurt to the business is no different than other financial problems any business faces.
im stating that many people are unwilling to pay X dollars or pounds for a game. if that means the company goes bust for charging that much then so be it. its actually irrelevant to the argument if i then take the game for free while its marketed at that price.
If it's not worth your money, why are you downloading it?
That's basic economics. Have you ever seen a demand curve? Less people will be willing to buy at $60 than at $40, and even more people will be willing to "buy" at the cost of the time it takes to illegally download.
If not for pirate servers such as Iccup starcraft broodwar, and starcraft 2 would never have grown into the esport it is today.
You see? Piracy is fine. It is more than fine and it happens in every industry. I can take the chair my mother brought and refurnish it for years to come. I can borrow clothes from whoever wishes to give, and last but not least I can copy a game or some music that I would otherwise never have gotten and enjoy it.
Just like Brood War, and Skyrim proves the games industry wrong on so many levels. Witcher two and Amnesia does it too.
How is this an issue? Can anyone here say that they can reasonably afford a game, and they just decide to pirate it to be a dick?
Seriously. Even blizzard games are ridiculously priced. SC2 was selling for something like £45. Worse still, they don't convert the currencies, so they absolutely piss on European customers.
Another aspect is that not only do the sceners who make the pirate copies do that, they also make the game better. They even have better "customer" support.
Well even when the people trying so hard to say its bad do it, it makes me have a very hard time trying to justify their point of view.
Well that's silly. Didn't your parents or guardians ever tell you that two wrongs don't make a right? "But they did it too" is not justification for piracy.
On November 30 2011 22:24 SonicTitan wrote: Minecraft has been downloaded illegally over twelve million times. The creator wants less DRM, not more. There are lessons to be learned here.
Well, that data is kind of skewed because the pirates must redownload MC after every update.
Anyhow, I think it's funny what the devs did for DarkSoul, but it really wouldn't work.
Essentially, if they did that on the PC, it would just equate to more DRM.
On December 03 2011 00:59 sc4k wrote: Anyone who pirates and has enough money to buy the games should be ashamed of themselves. Anyone who can't afford games but pirates them shouldn't.
Not really worthy replying to but heck.
Pirating isn't a bad thing, it builds fanbase.
Well, if you are the sort of guy who pirates games first, THEN buys them legitimately, maybe you are okay. But it depends on how strict you are to your principles. If you have a bunch of games with 20+ hours played that you haven't paid for, but could have paid for, you are scum and I feel ashamed on your behalf.
We all as nerds should be uniting and paying into the brilliant industry that has provided so much enjoyment. And if you are against the commercialisation of the industry then put money into indie developers like TaleWorlds.
And if you complain about what you get nowadays, for 40 dollars...look at the sort of shit we were paying for back in the 80's. Games that would now be considered too bad to put on a free-to-play flash website costing 30 dollars, and counting for inflation that 30 dollars is probably around 40 modern dollars anyway??
Personally I think games are fine prices and especially with Steam discounts. If you have the money to buy games but pirate anyway, so you can afford more ramen noodles and fleshlights, then I stick to my guns and say that you should be ashamed of yourself and you probably deserve to fall over and chip your tooth.
On December 03 2011 07:03 FIStarcraft wrote: DRM is bad.
The inability of DRM to work very well on PC's has caused the PC game industry to gradually die off. On the other hand, DRM on consoles (and portables) works like a charm and all the money is heading in that direction. It's too bad pirates have their heads too far up their asses to realize they've made their bed and now must lie in it.
On December 03 2011 07:03 FIStarcraft wrote: DRM is bad.
The inability of DRM to work very well on PC's has caused the PC game industry to gradually die off. On the other hand, DRM on consoles (and portables) works like a charm and all the money is heading in that direction. It's too bad pirates have their heads too far up their asses to realize they've made their bed and now must lie in it.
This is so unbelievably wrong....holy crap. There's some games that get pirated more on the 360 than PC depending on if the releases are delayed or if support for the PC is bad etc. You think just like some CEO or ubisoft. "Better DRM will make us more money." Not one company has the courage to admit they simply suck at making PC games and that's why they sold poorly. It's a different market and they dont adapt, yet think they've made no mistakes in selling their product.
On December 03 2011 03:42 seppolevne wrote: You are forgetting that this is intellectual property, not real objects.
Read the thread, it's been done a dozen times or more. There's a reason IP laws exist, and it's because taking ideas or other non-physical things that don't belong to you is still stealing.
I dont see how there can be so much discussion on this topic everywhere. Pirating or illegally downloading any games/music movie or w/e is stealing. Its illegal. Those are just facts. Its a personal choice as to whether you want to do it though as there is really nothing keeping you from doing it. Whether its "wrong" or not is allso a matter of opinion. But really, I find it quite hilarious how much people can defend what they do with hilarious justifications and pretending its not stealing. Someday I want to see someone who just says, "I steal all these games because I can get away with it, they do nothing about it, and then I can spend my money somewhere else." I mean, an hour of reading this thread provides DOZENS of lolworthy reasons why its ok for so and so to steal some game.
But really, I have a huge library of pc and 360 games representing thousands of dollars of hard earned money of mine. I generally don't have a lot of respect for someone who steals anything rather than cutting their budget somewhere else or something. To be honest if you can't afford a videogame, then you probably can't afford the time spent playing either and should work on improving your financial situation. But to each their own. I really don't mean this as harshly as it sounds, its just kind of a theoretical observation. I obviously know situations are different for everyone and its quite possible that were my situation to change and I really could not afford a game I might think diffrently.
P.S. (I think the same about music and movies also btw, haven't downloaded music illegally since I was an idiot highschooler and even then it wasn't about the money it was that I wanted music my parents prohibited. Never pirated a movie. You like to watch movies get NetFlix.)
On December 03 2011 13:28 Atreides wrote: I dont see how there can be so much discussion on this topic everywhere. Pirating or illegally downloading any games/music movie or w/e is stealing. Its illegal. Those are just facts. Its a personal choice as to whether you want to do it though as there is really nothing keeping you from doing it. Whether its "wrong" or not is allso a matter of opinion. But really, I find it quite hilarious how much people can defend what they do with hilarious justifications and pretending its not stealing. Someday I want to see someone who just says, "I steal all these games because I can get away with it, they do nothing about it, and then I can spend my money somewhere else." I mean, an hour of reading this thread provides DOZENS of lolworthy reasons why its ok for so and so to steal some game.
But really, I have a huge library of pc and 360 games representing thousands of dollars of hard earned money of mine. I generally don't have a lot of respect for someone who steals anything rather than cutting their budget somewhere else or something. To be honest if you can't afford a videogame, then you probably can't afford the time spent playing either and should work on improving your financial situation. But to each their own. I really don't mean this as harshly as it sounds, its just kind of a theoretical observation. I obviously know situations are different for everyone and its quite possible that were my situation to change and I really could not afford a game I might think diffrently.
P.S. (I think the same about music and movies also btw, haven't downloaded music illegally since I was an idiot highschooler and even then it wasn't about the money it was that I wanted music my parents prohibited. Never pirated a movie. You like to watch movies get NetFlix.)
I steal all these games because I can get away with it, they do nothing about it, and then I can spend my money somewhere else.
There you go! I used to shoplift when I was in high school, mostly wow game cards/expansions, as well as a few other games (COD:WAW, MW2 and the map packs etc.), I probably got around 2 years worth of game time, very rarely ever paid for a wow subscription. I pirate for the same reason I used to shoplift, I'd rather spend my money on things that I can't get for free, or use to their full extent (Multiplayer on legit servers, for example) plain and simple. I too find it quite funny that so many people try to justify their pirating when in actuality you may as well just be shoplifting the game/movie/cd, stealing is stealing.
I believe piracy is just another example of consequence dictating source of actions (<3 Tool ), the vast majority of those that pirate would also shoplift if the chance of getting caught was equally as low.
I stopped shoplifting because I'm no longer a minor and now have a job, so I'm risking myself more than a slap on the wrist and the purchase cost of the game and eventually everyone gets caught, so I decided to stop while I still had some luck.
Just my 2 cents, of course there are going to be the deluded that still believe what they do isn't wrong and they're just 'trying them out', but oh well, no matter what they do people are still going to find a way to pirate.
The reason Piracy is "so bad" right now, is because the amount of bad developers is enormous. Piracy, as illegal as it is, is more of shit-sifter than a method of stealing. Competition drives innovation, smart developers WILL have ways to combat piracy, while earning the respect of its costumers who then usually buy the product.
Countless companies like EA who slam out 10 games a month of rehashed content deserve a kick in the balls.
Piracy, has given the software using community a lot of leverage, and with the ball in our court, it's clear we appreciate and respect good developers, but loot and pillage those who deceive. Arrrgh!
On December 03 2011 13:58 v3chr0 wrote: The reason Piracy is "so bad" right now, is because the amount of bad developers is enormous. Piracy, as illegal as it is, is more of shit-sifter than a method of stealing. Competition drives innovation, smart developers WILL have ways to combat piracy, while earning the respect of its costumers who then usually buy the game.
Piracy, has given the software using community a lot of leverage, and with the ball in our court, it's clear we appreciate and respect good developers, but loot and pillage those who deceive. Arrrgh!
Could you please give some examples of those that are good developers and those that are deceivers?
Personally, I see this as another way of trying to justify something that is frankly unjustifiable. For instance, a friend of mine was complaining about how Bethesda is probably going to charge for Skyrim mods with the steamworkshop integration and how that is "bullshit" and how charging for mods in Oblivion was also bullshit and is the main reason why Bethesda is a "shitty company". The thing is, he didn't even buy Skyrim, but (like a vast majority of pc gamers in general) feels entitled to not have to pay for any extra content they create in the future. He also says that Skyrim isn't worth buying, yet he's already logged over 40 hours, the game has yet to be out for a month.
This is the way many people try to justify their pirating, maybe to some it makes sense, but to me it just seems like another way to try and play it off like you're not doing something wrong.
On December 03 2011 02:20 turdburgler wrote: assuming taking that seat doesnt hurt anyone and it was going to be empty i dont see why its immortal. you are stating its immoral without saying why.
you also rebuffed my claim that putting people out of business isnt inherently immoral the same way. you are just stating things without any explanation
Taking something for nothing without asking or telling is immoral. Even if no one is technically getting hurt, unless you have consent for taking something, or trade money, goods, or services of your own, it's immoral. This is the way it's been for thousands of years. Are you suddenly immune to this morality or above other people? No, you're just ignoring this fact to try to feel better about your actions.
It's not immoral in the same way, because not all morality is the same. It is immoral for you to want something for free and to put people out of a job. By your actions, you are gaining, they are losing. You're also forcing them into this situation by not giving them a choice. They are not choosing to let you pirate. You are choosing your actions, forcing a consequence, and it only benefits you in the long run. That is almost exactly what immorality is.
There's plenty on philosophy elsewhere. If you have such a narrow and self-centered view on morality, and only do anything for your own gain and just say fuck everyone else, then you might want to read up on it.
I'm with you. The intent to buy the game is completely immaterial. If that person really never intended to buy the game, why is he downloading it? The logic to that thought process is fundamentally flawed. By indicating that the game isn't worth paying for, it's implied that the game isn't of sufficient interest to the buyer. Why obtain the game at all if it's not worth it?
would you pay £1000000 for a game? no. does that mean its worthless, no ofcourse not.
just because i wont pay £40 doesnt mean i think its worthless i just think its worth less
EPT
), the vast majority of those that pirate would also shoplift if the chance of getting caught was equally as low.
