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Could a Technocracy be Better than Democracy? - Page 35

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tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 02:56 GMT
#681
Well the economy needs access to cheap fossil fuels in order to continue to grow
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 14 2011 03:03 GMT
#682
^ Why do you say that? Right now scarcity has nothing to do with the price of oil, and even factors like drilling and access aren't. The biggest blocks to price right now are government, and when prices start to get too high, believe me, the government will remove those blocks (or they will be voted out with a new government that will - which is something that wouldn't happen under a technocracy/autocracy).

When the price of gas grows, people will go to alternatives (anything from hydrogen power to horseback). Gas is always crucial to the economy, but the supply of oil itself isn't the issue, it's the supply that's the issue (understand? Meaning things oil reserves not being allowed to be drilled in to, oil reserves not being found, political instability, etc).

I mean obviously the economy needs access to fossil fuels, but fossil fuels are very abundant. It's policy that limits access to cheap fuel, not the natural supply of it. But the economy will grow regardless of fossil fuel, and actually, it's a sign of an extremely strong and robust economy when gas prices rise (like they did under the Bush administration in mid-2000s and the 1980's under Reagan). The relationship between fossil fuels and the economy is extremely complex, it's not as simple as "cheap oil = growing economy"
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:08 GMT
#683
"Despite their inherent incompatibilities, these two systems during the last two centuries have had one fundamental characteristic in common, namely, exponential growth, which has made a reasonably stable coexistence possible. But, for various reasons, it is impossible for the matter-energy system to sustain exponential growth for more than a few tens of doublings, and this phase is by now almost over. The monetary system has no such constraints, and, according to one of its most fundamental rules, it must continue to grow by compound interest. This disparity between a monetary system which continues to grow exponentially and a physical system which is unable to do so leads to an increase with time in the ratio of money to the output of the physical system. This manifests itself as price inflation. A monetary alternative corresponding to a zero physical growth rate would be a zero interest rate. The result in either case would be large-scale financial instability."
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
September 14 2011 03:18 GMT
#684
Sigh... I give up on this thread. There's only so much that I can stand of reading an argument that, in essence, boils down to

[image loading]

Before I finally have to give up and accept that it's hopeless. It was funny before, but now it's just sad. Too sad. I hope you're trolling. If not, you need help.
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:23 GMT
#685
Do you think Marion King Hubbert was a troll?
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 03:24:12
September 14 2011 03:23 GMT
#686
Do you think resource exhaustion and corresponding population depletion are funny subjects?
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
September 14 2011 03:25 GMT
#687
I think the problem is more why the eventual depletion of resources necessarily entails a bonkers political system, but I'm inclined to think my time is being wasted.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:26 GMT
#688
That would be to avoid the corresponding population depletion and social fascism it would entail.
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 03:28:36
September 14 2011 03:27 GMT
#689
...which could also be accomplished without putting a ridiculously specific set of people in charge for no especially compelling reason other than 'we've got this, guys'. Do you not see that?

Edit: We can grant every single premise about resources and physical science, and not get the conclusion you're looking for: put the physicists, chemists, and biologists in charge.
kazie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
258 Posts
September 14 2011 03:29 GMT
#690
i dont think anyone would agree on anything and nothing would get done :|
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:30 GMT
#691
Again do you think Marion King Hubbert was trolling the U.S. government when he stated: We
have carried out research in that field, and that, I think, is second to nobody's. We have anticipated a great deal of work by the United States Government by four or five years and obtained the same results.
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 03:32:07
September 14 2011 03:31 GMT
#692
And I can grant that 100% and have it have absolutely no logical effect on why he should be the king of the world. That's why this is so puzzling.

Your argument is equivalent to:

1) The sky is blue.
2) Cows moo.

Thus, I should be President of the United States. There is absolutely no logical relationship.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:32 GMT
#693
no the same people that are in charge now would be in charge... the technologists who operate our complex technological system that keeps us all alive
ikl2
Profile Joined September 2010
United States145 Posts
September 14 2011 03:32 GMT
#694
Yeah definitely wasting my time. Have a good night.
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:35 GMT
#695
yea have fun trying to live without technology
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
September 14 2011 03:37 GMT
#696
and extraneous energy

User was banned for this post.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 14 2011 03:42 GMT
#697
On September 14 2011 12:08 tech information wrote:
"Despite their inherent incompatibilities, these two systems during the last two centuries have had one fundamental characteristic in common, namely, exponential growth, which has made a reasonably stable coexistence possible. But, for various reasons, it is impossible for the matter-energy system to sustain exponential growth for more than a few tens of doublings, and this phase is by now almost over. The monetary system has no such constraints, and, according to one of its most fundamental rules, it must continue to grow by compound interest. This disparity between a monetary system which continues to grow exponentially and a physical system which is unable to do so leads to an increase with time in the ratio of money to the output of the physical system. This manifests itself as price inflation. A monetary alternative corresponding to a zero physical growth rate would be a zero interest rate. The result in either case would be large-scale financial instability."


The monetary system is not a system that is out of control, it is a system that is completely controlled by the availability of goods, and the wish for people to have such goods. It doesn't matter how much people want things - and bear in mind that in economics, there is no such thing as need (or rather, there is no difference from want and need), if supply is low, prices will go up, and eventually people will not buy it anymore.

The monetary system still grows exponentially, and that's because supply has been growing. When supply drops, the price will rise, and the resource will sell slower and slower and the price will eventually get so high that alternatives (anything from horseback to solar and hydrogen) will be more highly demanded as well as more profitable ventures for businesses to go into.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 14 2011 03:49 GMT
#698
On September 14 2011 12:42 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 12:08 tech information wrote:
"Despite their inherent incompatibilities, these two systems during the last two centuries have had one fundamental characteristic in common, namely, exponential growth, which has made a reasonably stable coexistence possible. But, for various reasons, it is impossible for the matter-energy system to sustain exponential growth for more than a few tens of doublings, and this phase is by now almost over. The monetary system has no such constraints, and, according to one of its most fundamental rules, it must continue to grow by compound interest. This disparity between a monetary system which continues to grow exponentially and a physical system which is unable to do so leads to an increase with time in the ratio of money to the output of the physical system. This manifests itself as price inflation. A monetary alternative corresponding to a zero physical growth rate would be a zero interest rate. The result in either case would be large-scale financial instability."


The monetary system is not a system that is out of control, it is a system that is completely controlled by the availability of goods, and the wish for people to have such goods. It doesn't matter how much people want things - and bear in mind that in economics, there is no such thing as need (or rather, there is no difference from want and need), if supply is low, prices will go up, and eventually people will not buy it anymore.

The monetary system still grows exponentially, and that's because supply has been growing. When supply drops, the price will rise, and the resource will sell slower and slower and the price will eventually get so high that alternatives (anything from horseback to solar and hydrogen) will be more highly demanded as well as more profitable ventures for businesses to go into.


Essentially what I wanted to say, but said better. That whole long blob of text came down to a fundamental misunderstanding about how money works (kinda straw-manning money & the market of goods/services), criticizing the straw man, and putting forth a very hard-to-explain new monetary policy that contains none of these. If this technocracy proponent refuses to understand how money interacts with supply and demand in the market, then I see no point in further debate.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 14 2011 03:57 GMT
#699
^ I spent 4 years of college to become an economics grad just so I could make that post. College was so worth it.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
September 14 2011 04:11 GMT
#700
A Technocracy would be WORSE than our sucky democracy for the simple reason that NONE of the listed professions cares about HUMANS (i.e. citizens). The belief that technology can solve all problems is a myth and it has put us on the road to global destruction by making us waste energy in an insane amount while creating more problems than it solves.

Problems created through technology:
- pollution
- loss of social networks (mobility enforces the loss of contacts in your neighborhood and the "technological social networks" are of a lesser quality)
- loss of social values (yay, free porn on the internet and new and more violent movies every season?)

Technology and globalism basically follow one motto: divide et impera and it divides the population from their family and friends to make the individual weaker when faced with a decision "from those in power" (not just politicians, but company owners as well).
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
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