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Could a Technocracy be Better than Democracy? - Page 17

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tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
August 13 2011 07:59 GMT
#321
What you are talking about can be called either technological aristocracy, elites, dictatorship of engineers, industrial democracy, econocracy, meritocracy, bureaucracy, scientific socialism, etc, all of which are part of the Price System goulash of corruption. Technocracy is unique. It has no counterpart anywhere else on earth.

"The instances of such misuse of `Technocracy' and `Technocrat' are too numerous for us to cite them specifically; but they are to be found in various propaganda books, in popular magazines, in daily newspapers--from the New York Times down to the Hearst papers--and in the bulletins and house papers of various industrial and service enterprises.
Literally, the word `Technocracy' means government by skill, as contrasted to government by opinion--whether it be an autocracy (government by one man's opinion), an aristocracy (government by the opinions of an upper class), a plutocracy (government by the opinions of the wealthy), or a democracy (government by
everybody's opinion). The word `Technocracy' was synthesized and casually used, but not clearly defined, by others than Technocrats, even before the Twentieth Century, but its current usage and definition pertain properly only to the social concepts, organization,
and membership which grew out of the thinking and writings of Howard Scott. The application of the word in any other connotation today is a clumsy usurpation and a fraud." - http://www.archive.org/det​ails/WhoIsATechnocrat-Wilt​onIvie

‎"The political governments of the United States and Canada are part and parcel of the Price System of this continent. They are the purveyors of scarcity, the merchandisers of national debt and the sowers of national dissolution. They are the ballyhooers of public confidence and the salesmen of sucker bait to their citizens. The political governments of the United States and Canada are the institutional blockades to social progress. They are the strong-arm squads of the merchant of debt and death."

"Technocracy Inc. charges the political administrations, the corporate enterprises, and the debt merchants of the United States and Canada with being in possession of the data and physical facts of the technological progression of this Continental Area. Technocracy Inc. charges these dominant interests with wilful suppression and distortion of the facts."

"It, in its greater patriotism of a New America, will present a clean, hard, bright design for living that will be the glory of all ages. And when the youth of America presents its ultimatum, let no minority, racial, religious, or economic, attempt to bar the highway to the New America; for if one does, the youth of this Continent will concede nothing short of that minority's annihilation."

journals.hil.unb.ca/index.​php/RCMP/article/download/​9628/9683

Here's what Marion King Hubbert had to say to the Board of Economic Warfare, in these Letters and Hearing regarding Hubbert's involvement with Technocracy:

Mr. Brockway: Do you reject the fundamental tenet of democracy that men are equal?
Mr. Hubbert: Yes, if that be the fundamental tenet of democracy, I say I reject that flatly.

http://www.hubbertpeak.com​/hubbert/Technocracy1943.p​df

In the Declaration of Independence there occurs the familiar line: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...’ This concept is philosophic in origin and, as we have seen, has no basis in biologic fact. Upon biologic fact, theories of democracy go to pieces. - Technocracy Study Course

http://ia600400.us.archive​.org/4/items/TechnocracySt​udyCourseUnabridged/Techno​cracyStudyCourse-NewOpened​.pdf
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
August 13 2011 08:09 GMT
#322
"I drew up a kind of a small study course of the basics of what we were talking about, for use in these small groups that were assembling around. That was published in a small booklet without authorship. It was called "Technocracy Study Course." - Marion King Hubbert

http://www.aip.org/history/ohilist/5031_4.html

"The Study Course has received the highest commendation from some of the greatest educators on the continent and has been termed the greatest single contribution to education within a decade."

"One indication of the efficiency of this program is indicated in A. W. Jones' book, Life, Liberty and Prosperity. The book is primarily a study of the attitudes of various groups towards labour and business, and the conflicts between these two. The study was carried out in Akron, Ohio in 1938-1939, and a Technocracy group was intentionally singled out in a sampling. The study is useful for our purpose inasmuch as the author deliberately selected two groups of Technocrats: one group that had completed the Study Course and one that was just beginning it. The “beginners”, he found, were by and large “no different from other citizens in their attitudes towards corporate property”. “Indoctrination, however,” he continues, “changes the individual into a type that we found to be unique.” On a scale that ran from 0 to 32, high scores indicating favourable attitudes towrds corporate property rights, the Technocracy initiates scored “an average of 11.9, which is very near to the average of the representative random sample”. Those who had completed the Study Course, on the other hand, “scored an average of 2.9”. These results indicate the efficiency of the course in changing members' viewpoints, at least so far as attitudes towards corporate property rights are concerned. "

http://ir.lib.sfu.ca/bitst​ream/1892/5072/1/b13876442​.pdf
frantic.cactus
Profile Joined April 2010
New Zealand164 Posts
August 13 2011 10:23 GMT
#323
Having a country run by a purely technocratic government would be a horrible, horrible thing. For example Nazi germany was technocracy in a sense and the anti-semetic policies leading up to the Holocaust, take from that what you will.

What a technocracy does is take the human as an organism (or case number) rather than a being with its own nature created from what socio-cultural formation in which he/she was socilized.This would allow for horrendous atrocities to be committed in the name of some arbitrary statistic, if the situation arose (see holocaust).

Democracy is a way for humans to have a say as the emotional and social beings we are and is a necessary counterbalance to an increasingly technocratic bueraucracy.

It's so weird that this topic came up as i'm currently writing an essay for my public policy class on this very issue!
Terran it up since 2007
tech information
Profile Joined August 2011
105 Posts
August 13 2011 10:38 GMT
#324
Technocracy And Humanism
John A. Waring
1985
Published in:
Section 3 Newsletter, Feb. 1985, No. 18 and Mar. 1985, No. 19

Every politico-economic ideology, like every religious belief, proclaims that it has the one true doctrine and that all others are either entirely different or at "opposite poles."

They are largely successful in this kind of indoctrination and propaganda--with students and the public at large, as well as with philosophers, textbook authors, newspaper publishers, et al--because they incessantly emphasize, exaggerate, and reiterate the minor differences while ignoring what they have in common. This making-a-mountain-out-of-a-molehill game is similar to not seeing the forest for the trees and is just what the leaders of these vast divisions want the public to base their attitudes on; thus, the extremist's desperation where he cries to his followers: "It's either we or they, black or white, good or bad, etc." In the U.S., as a result of the Cold War for instance, the game is so rigged that critical thinking and constructive action have been muted by repetitions of the official propaganda line: "If you don't like what we have here...with all its imperfections...the only other alternative is some form of Marxian socialism or a fascistic dictatorship-- and you don't want them!"

So the socially concerned man and woman, the idealistic youth, are circumvented and their efforts are swerved into one or another ostentatious but petty reform movement, or some outright escapism.

How many, or rather how few, have exclaimed something like--"To Hell with those foreign isms! And with the imported monopolism of high finance misruling and despoiling this Continent...Lets start building a nation fit for everyone to live in--not just exist!"

In effect that is what fifteen men and one woman did in 1918-19 in New York City, led by Howard Scott, a young engineering scientist in his 20s who organized them into what was known as the Technical Alliance. These engineers, mathematicians, architects, foresters, statisticians, educators, chemists, physicists, physicians, et al, had been working in their professional capacities directly or indirectly for the Federal Government during World War I. Among them were Dr. Charles P. Steinmetz, the "Wizard of General Electric"; Professor Richard Tolman, physicist and during World War II vice chairman of the National Research Board that Vannevar Bush headed; Leland Olds, whom President Roosevelt made Chairman of the Federal Power Commission in the 1930s and 40s; the president of the American Institute of Architects; the chief of the Bureau of Chemistry of the U.S. Department of Agriculture; Dr. Alice Barrows Fernandez, who had studied under John Dewey and who later became the Chief of the Division of the Design of School Buildings for the U.S. Office of Education; Professor Thorstein Veblen, the "Stormy Petrel" of American economics; et al...not a group of wishful- thinking philosophers but a nucleus of trained professionals.

These trained professionals recognized what could be accomplished in coordinating the nation's resources for war. Under Howard Scott's leadership they set out to investigate the possibility and feasibility of coordinating the nation's resources in peacetime in order to eliminate waste, increase technical efficiency, mechanize industry to reduce manhours, and multiply production so that a higher standard of living could be provided to everyone, not just a favored few. That was how the idea of Technocracy got its start.

In order to understand the social design that Technocracy proposes as uniquely relevant to our North American Continent, it is first necessary to make clear what it is not. This is because all ideologies of the past and present are variations and branches of one system: the Price/Political System. Thus, whether feudalism or liberal republics, capitalism or socialism, monarchy or democracy, fascism or cooperatives, the most benign commonwealth or the most repressive dictatorial tyranny...all without exception are based on, and take for granted, as being fundamental for any society, a) political rule, and b) economic- monetary-price values.

The socialist-communist countries are no less tied to the ancient anachronisms of money, price, interest, taxes, debt, wages, etc., as are the so-called capitalistic nations, which is only natural since they too are still laboring under scarcity. Only the superficial labels of "ownership" are different. The fiduciary "mechanics" of mankind are essentially the same, however, whether within the Chase Manhattan Bank, Barclays of London, or the Kremlin's Gosbank. The main difference is that the Gosbank is larger--the largest bank in the world in terms of monetary holdings. In fact, "Bolshevik" Russia today has five times as many banks as does the U.S.A., and Red China has three times as many.

Economics in any and all forms rests on the assumption of conditions of natural or artificially enforced scarcity, far less than enough to supply everyone. The study of economics and its everyday business control and transactions tells you how each variation of the Price System makes an ideology of how to divide up that scarcity. You will find economics defined in terms of scarcity in every textbook on the subject, usually in the opening chapter. Without scarcity, some of them candidly admit, there would be no need for economics.

Politics, regardless of what label it goes under, is fundamentally concerned with the manipulation and coercion- control of millions of human beings as well as each individual one. The skill and ability to stay in office, whether a senator, commissar, king, or president, depends on how well he manipulates the people in his domain...usually in terms of how well he has them fooled, as Machiavelli postulated the game.

There are no exceptions to these generalizations; all societies, whether primitive or the most sophisticated and "advanced" today, are run entirely within the framework of the rules of the game of Political government and Economics. The inherent anti- social features of these rules have been obvious to all thinking people throughout recorded history--especially to those humanistically concerned. All they have been able to do is hope for a more benign ruler to be born, or to vote for more "honest" politicians...the wishful thinking futility of these purported choices and alternatives is dreary reading.

Enter Technology: As long as scarcity, the natural scarcity that still prevails throughout the Third World, only partially diminished in East Europe and West Europe, and toil and labor--both concomitants of little or no technological energy--was the lot of humankind, then there was nothing that could be done to ameliorate the poverty and oppression of the majority of the populations. Then a group of scientists, technologists, engineers, and other professionals--the Technical Alliance, 1918-21--pointed out that the development of technological power in the U.S. and Canada had rendered the ancient Price/Political System not only unnecessary and obsolete on this continent but increasingly dangerous for us to tolerate.

Despite their preliminary Energy Survey of North America and their warnings, the prosperity of the 1920s temporarily sidetracked their message. A decade later the Price/Political System in the U.S.A. almost collapsed for the first time anywhere in world history.

To protect the scientific integrity of its brilliant concept, Howard Scott in 1933 incorporated Technocracy Inc. as a non- profit educational and research organization, open to North American citizens from all walks of life and not solely the scientifically trained. Since then many North Americans have become members to study the possibilities, advantages, and the necessity of applying science to social problems, and to write and speak about the idea.

The Design: What Technocracy proposes is the world's first functional society. The first step is for the people of the U.S. and Canada to abandon once and for all the archaic game of Politico-Economic rule over human life on this continent. There is only one sane and orderly way to do this: by national referendum. But remember, it is a matter of survival, not choice; the System's waste of irreplaceable natural and human resources, of air and water pollution with worse depredations to come offer us no alternative.

To succeed the ancient Price-Political System, Technocracy proposes that the functionally trained men and women of this Continent immediately form a coordinating staff for the governance of the entire North American Continent's

34 billion technological Hp in factories, refineries, farm tractors, mining machines, all transportation as well as the coordination of the geological and ecological resources with that technology--for one purpose only: to meet human needs, both material and cultural, of the men, women and children of the entire continent.

Instead of money juggling and politics, interdisciplinary science and engineering at all levels from the top down would make the decisions as to planning and operating all our technology on a balanced load basis. Maximum mechanization and automation would reduce work time, giving people more hours to pursue cultural and recreational interests. Maximum use of renewable resources (hydropower carrying the base electric load instead of coal, oil, or nuclear power). Maximum use of all mining, agricultural, construction and industrial equipment operating at full blast night and day throughout the year would turn out an abundance of only the highest quality of goods since sleazy products waste valuable resources.

Contrary to what the economics textbooks would have us believe, psychologists have found that most people are not working for money. The average man, if lucky enough to be doing the kind of work he enjoys, does it for the satisfaction of accomplishment and social esteem, knowing that the pay he gets will provide a decent standard of living for himself and family. The goal in life for creative minds is to have the facilities for working out their ideas and acceptance of their best works.

Everyone would receive sufficient purchasing power in the form of Energy Certificates since the technological energy input for the production of all consumer and other products is technically measurable and the basis for a continuous Continental accounting. These certificates, having none of the characteristics of money/price/debt, could not be used for anything but acquiring any unit--say a dress or a tie or a book or a dozen oranges, etc., and any order would be instantly tabulated by the technicians whose job it is to keep the supply lines filled with more of the same. The certificate would possess some of the features of a traveler's check, an IBM punch card or electronic imprinted data face and a factory requisition form, none of whose details the citizen-user would have to be bothered with.

Everyone would receive their own annual book of Energy Purchasing Cards free as a right of citizenship no matter what one's occupational status or age or sex or color or race. To science there is only one race: The human race! Nor would these Energy Cards be based on the work you do or whether you work at all. This is simply recognition of the fact that technology is doing 99.9% of all the work so it is only functional and rational to distribute the abundance freely to all on the basis of what the machines are producing. This is democracy on a daily basis with everybody having the same vote and getting exactly what they voted for.

Exchange value for measurement and 95% of crime that the FBI states are for money, either directly or indirectly, would be eliminated at once without passing a single law or without any moral reformation in the individual. (The remaining 5% of crime is pathological and will take time to diminish.) This historically unprecedented act of removing the incentive for crime is worth a functional social system for this reason alone. But Technocracy is concerned more with social crimes such as the waste of natural resources, poverty, accidents, pollution, the Cold War, and disease, all of which are engendered by the Price System.

What of the social and cultural consequences? For the first time in human history there would be no more fear of deprivation and poverty; no more fear of political persecution or injustice; no more wastage of human talent; no more financial or other limitations on education; no more sex discrimination; no more racial discrimination; no more crime in the streets or anywhere else. No more commercialization of the arts and sex; no more financialization of health care; no more welfare or charity or poor; no more child labor or child beating or wife beating (remember, she has her own Energy Certificate, so you'd better be good, brother!); no more rackets of any kind from Mafia to gambling to the munitions/war promoters and drug dealers. The list of social depredations is almost endless, the new freedoms unbounded. All goods and services would be free to everyone: no prices, debts, taxes, profits, wages, charity, graft, insurance, banking, swindling, advertising, or any other kind of chiseling, disadvantages, or exploitation either of people or our natural resources.

This means engineering with Nature, not against her as Economics and Politics do, because in a Technate the agricultural and ecological specialists, the hydrologists and technologists would constantly be meshing their knowledge in an interdisciplinary functional way to obtain the most finished products for the minimum expenditure of energy and the minimum use of nonrenewable raw materials.

Scientists and engineers aren't trained to tell people what to do. They concentrate on getting the job done, solving problems. Those who do prefer controlling people--politicians, businessmen, bankers, etc., will all be retired or off to Spain or some likely place with all the gold bars they can carry and where they can still practice business.

What will happen to religion? Take the mortgage from the outside of the church and the collection plate from the inside, and only those clergymen sincerely interested in the spiritual welfare of their parishioners will stay on the job, automatically weeding out a lot of sanctimonious Pharisees now pontificating. People will become attuned to the rationality and reality of human life and achievement.

http://www.technocracy.org/archives/236-waring
Asymmetric
Profile Joined June 2011
Scotland1309 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 11:23:44
August 13 2011 11:17 GMT
#325
I've always liked the concept of thermoeconomics and technocracys criticisms of scarity. Since I studied physics at uni, theres a certain elegance and rationale to it the appeals to me more than the apparent schizophrenic inconsistency of more mainstream economics.
Fyodor
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada971 Posts
August 13 2011 11:28 GMT
#326
I think nations and groups should have at least some focused direction. Not sure how this can happen when specialists with narrow knowledge come together. Sounds like nonsense to me.

What happens when you have a decision that's not narrowly scientific such as those regarding value (for example the value of freedom, equality, dignity or culture). Do you appoint a Philosophy expert? This is problematic because Philosophy is not consolidated in its art. What he decides won't be predictable or otherwise self-serving.

Considering what I outlined in the previous paragraph, any conception about the end of discrimination is doomed to fail. Admittedly, such conceptions are strange to begin with. Discrimination is at the heart of human activity and I don't mean that humanity is essentially evil. I mean that any creature or society that is finite in power and resources must at some point make decisions about what is more important or desired.

Philosophically, what "tech information" posted is heavily biased by common western-world thought. Inspired by Christian tenets even though it might not be consciously aware of it, this view states without justification the equal value of men, the postulation of human rights, etc. There's also some Marxist rhetoric in there. Well nevermind that, it's polluted by a wealth of different philosophical sources none of which are a rational consequence of a government of specialists.

I think that essentially technocracy is a confusion. Political decisions can't possibly be positivist in nature. It's the kind of nonsense that comes out of a person trained in the ways of science but is not otherwise properly educated. Either that or it comes from the strange and very dead "positivist" period of philosophy.
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
faruq
Profile Joined August 2011
United Arab Emirates116 Posts
August 13 2011 11:44 GMT
#327
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253940&currentpage=12#240

Why is this thread still open? The OP is very weakly constructed to the point of irrelevance, even ignorance. Ever direct argument to the OP simply reinforces the ignorance.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 12:00:01
August 13 2011 11:57 GMT
#328
On August 13 2011 19:23 frantic.cactus wrote:
Having a country run by a purely technocratic government would be a horrible, horrible thing. For example Nazi germany was technocracy in a sense and the anti-semetic policies leading up to the Holocaust, take from that what you will.

What a technocracy does is take the human as an organism (or case number) rather than a being with its own nature created from what socio-cultural formation in which he/she was socilized.This would allow for horrendous atrocities to be committed in the name of some arbitrary statistic, if the situation arose (see holocaust).

Democracy is a way for humans to have a say as the emotional and social beings we are and is a necessary counterbalance to an increasingly technocratic bueraucracy.

It's so weird that this topic came up as i'm currently writing an essay for my public policy class on this very issue!

Nazi Germany was as far from technocracy as democracy is. Probably farther. In your argument you go from Nazi Germany being technocracy (without saying why) to holocaust without any logical steps showing any connection.

Second paragraph seems to show that you have no idea what technocracy is as your premise is just wrong.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 13 2011 11:59 GMT
#329
On August 13 2011 19:38 tech information wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Technocracy And Humanism
John A. Waring
1985
Published in:
Section 3 Newsletter, Feb. 1985, No. 18 and Mar. 1985, No. 19

Every politico-economic ideology, like every religious belief, proclaims that it has the one true doctrine and that all others are either entirely different or at "opposite poles."

They are largely successful in this kind of indoctrination and propaganda--with students and the public at large, as well as with philosophers, textbook authors, newspaper publishers, et al--because they incessantly emphasize, exaggerate, and reiterate the minor differences while ignoring what they have in common. This making-a-mountain-out-of-a-molehill game is similar to not seeing the forest for the trees and is just what the leaders of these vast divisions want the public to base their attitudes on; thus, the extremist's desperation where he cries to his followers: "It's either we or they, black or white, good or bad, etc." In the U.S., as a result of the Cold War for instance, the game is so rigged that critical thinking and constructive action have been muted by repetitions of the official propaganda line: "If you don't like what we have here...with all its imperfections...the only other alternative is some form of Marxian socialism or a fascistic dictatorship-- and you don't want them!"

So the socially concerned man and woman, the idealistic youth, are circumvented and their efforts are swerved into one or another ostentatious but petty reform movement, or some outright escapism.

How many, or rather how few, have exclaimed something like--"To Hell with those foreign isms! And with the imported monopolism of high finance misruling and despoiling this Continent...Lets start building a nation fit for everyone to live in--not just exist!"

In effect that is what fifteen men and one woman did in 1918-19 in New York City, led by Howard Scott, a young engineering scientist in his 20s who organized them into what was known as the Technical Alliance. These engineers, mathematicians, architects, foresters, statisticians, educators, chemists, physicists, physicians, et al, had been working in their professional capacities directly or indirectly for the Federal Government during World War I. Among them were Dr. Charles P. Steinmetz, the "Wizard of General Electric"; Professor Richard Tolman, physicist and during World War II vice chairman of the National Research Board that Vannevar Bush headed; Leland Olds, whom President Roosevelt made Chairman of the Federal Power Commission in the 1930s and 40s; the president of the American Institute of Architects; the chief of the Bureau of Chemistry of the U.S. Department of Agriculture; Dr. Alice Barrows Fernandez, who had studied under John Dewey and who later became the Chief of the Division of the Design of School Buildings for the U.S. Office of Education; Professor Thorstein Veblen, the "Stormy Petrel" of American economics; et al...not a group of wishful- thinking philosophers but a nucleus of trained professionals.

These trained professionals recognized what could be accomplished in coordinating the nation's resources for war. Under Howard Scott's leadership they set out to investigate the possibility and feasibility of coordinating the nation's resources in peacetime in order to eliminate waste, increase technical efficiency, mechanize industry to reduce manhours, and multiply production so that a higher standard of living could be provided to everyone, not just a favored few. That was how the idea of Technocracy got its start.

In order to understand the social design that Technocracy proposes as uniquely relevant to our North American Continent, it is first necessary to make clear what it is not. This is because all ideologies of the past and present are variations and branches of one system: the Price/Political System. Thus, whether feudalism or liberal republics, capitalism or socialism, monarchy or democracy, fascism or cooperatives, the most benign commonwealth or the most repressive dictatorial tyranny...all without exception are based on, and take for granted, as being fundamental for any society, a) political rule, and b) economic- monetary-price values.

The socialist-communist countries are no less tied to the ancient anachronisms of money, price, interest, taxes, debt, wages, etc., as are the so-called capitalistic nations, which is only natural since they too are still laboring under scarcity. Only the superficial labels of "ownership" are different. The fiduciary "mechanics" of mankind are essentially the same, however, whether within the Chase Manhattan Bank, Barclays of London, or the Kremlin's Gosbank. The main difference is that the Gosbank is larger--the largest bank in the world in terms of monetary holdings. In fact, "Bolshevik" Russia today has five times as many banks as does the U.S.A., and Red China has three times as many.

Economics in any and all forms rests on the assumption of conditions of natural or artificially enforced scarcity, far less than enough to supply everyone. The study of economics and its everyday business control and transactions tells you how each variation of the Price System makes an ideology of how to divide up that scarcity. You will find economics defined in terms of scarcity in every textbook on the subject, usually in the opening chapter. Without scarcity, some of them candidly admit, there would be no need for economics.

Politics, regardless of what label it goes under, is fundamentally concerned with the manipulation and coercion- control of millions of human beings as well as each individual one. The skill and ability to stay in office, whether a senator, commissar, king, or president, depends on how well he manipulates the people in his domain...usually in terms of how well he has them fooled, as Machiavelli postulated the game.

There are no exceptions to these generalizations; all societies, whether primitive or the most sophisticated and "advanced" today, are run entirely within the framework of the rules of the game of Political government and Economics. The inherent anti- social features of these rules have been obvious to all thinking people throughout recorded history--especially to those humanistically concerned. All they have been able to do is hope for a more benign ruler to be born, or to vote for more "honest" politicians...the wishful thinking futility of these purported choices and alternatives is dreary reading.

Enter Technology: As long as scarcity, the natural scarcity that still prevails throughout the Third World, only partially diminished in East Europe and West Europe, and toil and labor--both concomitants of little or no technological energy--was the lot of humankind, then there was nothing that could be done to ameliorate the poverty and oppression of the majority of the populations. Then a group of scientists, technologists, engineers, and other professionals--the Technical Alliance, 1918-21--pointed out that the development of technological power in the U.S. and Canada had rendered the ancient Price/Political System not only unnecessary and obsolete on this continent but increasingly dangerous for us to tolerate.

Despite their preliminary Energy Survey of North America and their warnings, the prosperity of the 1920s temporarily sidetracked their message. A decade later the Price/Political System in the U.S.A. almost collapsed for the first time anywhere in world history.

To protect the scientific integrity of its brilliant concept, Howard Scott in 1933 incorporated Technocracy Inc. as a non- profit educational and research organization, open to North American citizens from all walks of life and not solely the scientifically trained. Since then many North Americans have become members to study the possibilities, advantages, and the necessity of applying science to social problems, and to write and speak about the idea.

The Design: What Technocracy proposes is the world's first functional society. The first step is for the people of the U.S. and Canada to abandon once and for all the archaic game of Politico-Economic rule over human life on this continent. There is only one sane and orderly way to do this: by national referendum. But remember, it is a matter of survival, not choice; the System's waste of irreplaceable natural and human resources, of air and water pollution with worse depredations to come offer us no alternative.

To succeed the ancient Price-Political System, Technocracy proposes that the functionally trained men and women of this Continent immediately form a coordinating staff for the governance of the entire North American Continent's

34 billion technological Hp in factories, refineries, farm tractors, mining machines, all transportation as well as the coordination of the geological and ecological resources with that technology--for one purpose only: to meet human needs, both material and cultural, of the men, women and children of the entire continent.

Instead of money juggling and politics, interdisciplinary science and engineering at all levels from the top down would make the decisions as to planning and operating all our technology on a balanced load basis. Maximum mechanization and automation would reduce work time, giving people more hours to pursue cultural and recreational interests. Maximum use of renewable resources (hydropower carrying the base electric load instead of coal, oil, or nuclear power). Maximum use of all mining, agricultural, construction and industrial equipment operating at full blast night and day throughout the year would turn out an abundance of only the highest quality of goods since sleazy products waste valuable resources.

Contrary to what the economics textbooks would have us believe, psychologists have found that most people are not working for money. The average man, if lucky enough to be doing the kind of work he enjoys, does it for the satisfaction of accomplishment and social esteem, knowing that the pay he gets will provide a decent standard of living for himself and family. The goal in life for creative minds is to have the facilities for working out their ideas and acceptance of their best works.

Everyone would receive sufficient purchasing power in the form of Energy Certificates since the technological energy input for the production of all consumer and other products is technically measurable and the basis for a continuous Continental accounting. These certificates, having none of the characteristics of money/price/debt, could not be used for anything but acquiring any unit--say a dress or a tie or a book or a dozen oranges, etc., and any order would be instantly tabulated by the technicians whose job it is to keep the supply lines filled with more of the same. The certificate would possess some of the features of a traveler's check, an IBM punch card or electronic imprinted data face and a factory requisition form, none of whose details the citizen-user would have to be bothered with.

Everyone would receive their own annual book of Energy Purchasing Cards free as a right of citizenship no matter what one's occupational status or age or sex or color or race. To science there is only one race: The human race! Nor would these Energy Cards be based on the work you do or whether you work at all. This is simply recognition of the fact that technology is doing 99.9% of all the work so it is only functional and rational to distribute the abundance freely to all on the basis of what the machines are producing. This is democracy on a daily basis with everybody having the same vote and getting exactly what they voted for.

Exchange value for measurement and 95% of crime that the FBI states are for money, either directly or indirectly, would be eliminated at once without passing a single law or without any moral reformation in the individual. (The remaining 5% of crime is pathological and will take time to diminish.) This historically unprecedented act of removing the incentive for crime is worth a functional social system for this reason alone. But Technocracy is concerned more with social crimes such as the waste of natural resources, poverty, accidents, pollution, the Cold War, and disease, all of which are engendered by the Price System.

What of the social and cultural consequences? For the first time in human history there would be no more fear of deprivation and poverty; no more fear of political persecution or injustice; no more wastage of human talent; no more financial or other limitations on education; no more sex discrimination; no more racial discrimination; no more crime in the streets or anywhere else. No more commercialization of the arts and sex; no more financialization of health care; no more welfare or charity or poor; no more child labor or child beating or wife beating (remember, she has her own Energy Certificate, so you'd better be good, brother!); no more rackets of any kind from Mafia to gambling to the munitions/war promoters and drug dealers. The list of social depredations is almost endless, the new freedoms unbounded. All goods and services would be free to everyone: no prices, debts, taxes, profits, wages, charity, graft, insurance, banking, swindling, advertising, or any other kind of chiseling, disadvantages, or exploitation either of people or our natural resources.

This means engineering with Nature, not against her as Economics and Politics do, because in a Technate the agricultural and ecological specialists, the hydrologists and technologists would constantly be meshing their knowledge in an interdisciplinary functional way to obtain the most finished products for the minimum expenditure of energy and the minimum use of nonrenewable raw materials.

Scientists and engineers aren't trained to tell people what to do. They concentrate on getting the job done, solving problems. Those who do prefer controlling people--politicians, businessmen, bankers, etc., will all be retired or off to Spain or some likely place with all the gold bars they can carry and where they can still practice business.

What will happen to religion? Take the mortgage from the outside of the church and the collection plate from the inside, and only those clergymen sincerely interested in the spiritual welfare of their parishioners will stay on the job, automatically weeding out a lot of sanctimonious Pharisees now pontificating. People will become attuned to the rationality and reality of human life and achievement.

http://www.technocracy.org/archives/236-waring


Please if you want to say something, say it with your own words and use links with sources to support your arguments. Do not copy paste loosely related walls of text.
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4329 Posts
August 13 2011 12:07 GMT
#330
On August 12 2011 16:49 AustinCM wrote:
Do you think that a Technocracy could work anywhere in the world?

What is a Technocracy you ask?

A Technocracy is a form of government in which engineers, scientists, health professionals, and other technical experts are in control of decision making in their respective fields.

So do you think that it would be able to accelerate scientific discovery and advancement and how do you think it would affect the economy of the given country?\

I for one feel that this is exactly what we need and will end the OP with a quote from Winston Churchill.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

How about this, I imagine a technocracy having about a dozen represenatives in each field and their decisions would need a scientific research paper sort of outlining why they made their decision, so people in those respective fields can peer review their decisions. I think that would be able to prevent any corruption.

Have you ever seen the movie Metropolis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
whitelly
Profile Joined May 2011
Czech Republic50 Posts
August 13 2011 13:05 GMT
#331
Yes,and No.becouse in the end,all that matter, are people .
But as long as you let them srew your own lives,it does not matter does it?
nihoh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia978 Posts
August 13 2011 13:08 GMT
#332
By this post, would the PRC be a technocracy? The Secretary of the Party, Hu Jintao is an engineer by trade.
Dont look at the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.
Deleted User 124618
Profile Joined November 2010
1142 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 13:42:49
August 13 2011 13:23 GMT
#333
As much as I would love to get a better functioning political system, a degree does not guarantee wisdom or intelligence. No matter how stupid democracy seems to be, equal power vote for everyone is the only way to make sure the insane minority is controlled.

I'd rather live with stupid open but stupid majority, than closed up and exclusive minority. At least if it's stupidity of majority that gives these people the power, then the people got what they deserve.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
August 13 2011 13:31 GMT
#334
Who decides laws regarding corporations, trusts, and business regulation? If it's done by the businesses themselves, I have a hard time believing things like the FDA and anti-trust laws would ever be created.
dcemuser
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3248 Posts
August 13 2011 13:41 GMT
#335
On August 13 2011 22:31 DoubleReed wrote:
Who decides laws regarding corporations, trusts, and business regulation? If it's done by the businesses themselves, I have a hard time believing things like the FDA and anti-trust laws would ever be created.


It would be done carefully by a studied panel of economic experts, of course.

The whole system is based around experts and panels in EVERY field. Economics is a field.
reneg
Profile Joined September 2010
United States859 Posts
August 13 2011 15:44 GMT
#336
On August 13 2011 22:41 dcemuser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2011 22:31 DoubleReed wrote:
Who decides laws regarding corporations, trusts, and business regulation? If it's done by the businesses themselves, I have a hard time believing things like the FDA and anti-trust laws would ever be created.


It would be done carefully by a studied panel of economic experts, of course.

The whole system is based around experts and panels in EVERY field. Economics is a field.


I feel like this takes too much away from the tenant of, "every man is created equal." Yes, experts in certain subject matters can bring a lot of interesting and insightful approaches to the table, but does that mean that someone less educated shouldn't have a voice? Or should have to count on someone else to be his voice?

Even if you were to set up a council for the "poor uneducated masses," you'd basically have to ensure them a special interest group to make sure you don't just crush them and make them slaves.

You could argue that the experts would make sure that they take steps to ensure that that doesn't happen, but how often do you see yourself criticizing stupid people in your day to day job?

I know that I, personally, roll my eyes at my coworkers sometimes, because they'll do things like delete trades (I work at an investment bank) from our systems, and we'll spend an hour going back and tying everything back to the point where we can re-add them.

Would i take away their power because they don't seem to be able to make educated decisions about their work? No.

And i wouldn't because i would probably fall into the field of "Uneducated masses." I have a degree in Economics. And German. I don't have a PHD from any highly regarded university, or any super advanced degrees. I have a bachelor's.

I feel like a lot of the people who really support this view themselves as being above the masses, and how, yes, the experts would dictate things, but THEY'D still be able to do whatever they wanted, because they're not the slovenly mass that is below them.

I disagree with that sentiment, and feel like YOU would be the ones that are having things dictated to them. You're not going to be a decision maker. Plain and simple.

And frankly, that's not a world i'd like to live in. I'd at least like to have a say in what happens, instead of trusting it to a few elites.

I'd like to at least be able to VOTE for them. If i choose to put an elite in office, over, let's just say Obama, or Bush, or any other president, then good. Let him make his decisions as they best serve the country. But make him stand re-election in 4 years.
moose...indian
jmack
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada285 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 15:52:47
August 13 2011 15:52 GMT
#337
This is what the future should be and we, the children of technology, can see it.

Why not let technology be our servant? Why not allow our most educated and sensible to people make the decisions and not for money or power but to uphold the well-being and long term survival of the human race.

What are our end term goal as a species? At the end of time what do we want to say was our civilization? Is it this world?

Or is it a world in which humans are truly free from burden and have advanced their levels of education, knowledge and happiness to their highest levels.

The future is not actually written in stone and that is a terrifying but exhilarating idea.

" (THEY DID IT THEY DID IT FXO DID IT!!! OMG John Lennon Toto destroyer LOLOLOLOLOL) " - Korean Reaction to QXC all killing team IM and destroying safe bets everywhere.
Deleted User 124618
Profile Joined November 2010
1142 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-13 15:56:46
August 13 2011 15:55 GMT
#338
On August 14 2011 00:52 jmack wrote:
This is what the future should be and we, the children of technology, can see it.

Why not let technology be our servant? Why not allow our most educated and sensible to people make the decisions and not for money or power but to uphold the well-being and long term survival of the human race.

What are our end term goal as a species? At the end of time what do we want to say was our civilization? Is it this world?

Or is it a world in which humans are truly free from burden and have advanced their levels of education, knowledge and happiness to their highest levels.

The future is not actually written in stone and that is a terrifying but exhilarating idea.



And who gets do decide who is intelligent and educated enough? Unsupervised and uncontrolled private schools who are there to make profit and will most likely take generous donations from friends of education? Do people vote for a commitee? Isn't that just democracy by proxy? Do people take some tests? Who gets to make and grade those tests? Do people vote for those?
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
August 13 2011 16:24 GMT
#339
On August 14 2011 00:55 Greentellon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 00:52 jmack wrote:
This is what the future should be and we, the children of technology, can see it.

Why not let technology be our servant? Why not allow our most educated and sensible to people make the decisions and not for money or power but to uphold the well-being and long term survival of the human race.

What are our end term goal as a species? At the end of time what do we want to say was our civilization? Is it this world?

Or is it a world in which humans are truly free from burden and have advanced their levels of education, knowledge and happiness to their highest levels.

The future is not actually written in stone and that is a terrifying but exhilarating idea.



And who gets do decide who is intelligent and educated enough? Unsupervised and uncontrolled private schools who are there to make profit and will most likely take generous donations from friends of education? Do people vote for a commitee? Isn't that just democracy by proxy? Do people take some tests? Who gets to make and grade those tests? Do people vote for those?

We decide who is educated enough every day in matters of life and death already. Doctors, engineers,... And we already have democracy by proxy.

As for details, there are many way, I would definitely propose to keep some democratic mechanisms if implementing it. As some people pointed out the title technocracy vs democracy is kind of misleading as they are not really entirely exclusive.
Ropid
Profile Joined March 2009
Germany3557 Posts
August 13 2011 16:41 GMT
#340
On August 13 2011 22:08 nihoh wrote:
By this post, would the PRC be a technocracy? The Secretary of the Party, Hu Jintao is an engineer by trade.

No, an engineer would vote on decisions for the Department of Energy or Department of Transportation or whatever his specific field is, not be the Secretary of the Party. The Secretary of the Party would be an academic specializing in mediating and interpersonal relationships and sociology or history etc.
"My goal is to replace my soul with coffee and become immortal."
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