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New Zealand politics

Forum Index > General Forum
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Discretionary Duck
Profile Joined July 2011
148 Posts
August 01 2011 14:09 GMT
#1
This is a thread for Kiwis to discuss the upcoming elections. International folk may comment of course but hopefully with some understanding of the parties and their policies.

Which party will you be voting for and why? I have only included the names of those that are currently in Parliament (minus JAP who is retiring at this election) in alphabetical order, any other party that is not currently in Parliament is listed under Other.

Poll: Which party will you be giving your vote to?

Greens (37)
 
35%

National (34)
 
32%

Labour (14)
 
13%

ACT (11)
 
10%

Other (6)
 
6%

United Future (5)
 
5%

107 total votes

Your vote: Which party will you be giving your vote to?

(Vote): ACT
(Vote): Greens
(Vote): Labour
(Vote): National
(Vote): United Future
(Vote): Other



I have selected ACT. The main reason is because having studied economics at university I find it hard to see any other party whose focus is on saving rather than spending.

These are my personal classifications of the various parties:

National (currently polling around 50%) - conservative party that doesn't seem active - their role appears to be to just simply govern. They'd rather just keep everything running as it already is without offending anyone by proposing any reforms. They made minor reforms to employment law by introducing the 90 day trial period where any employees can be sacked within three months for any reason the employer sees fit without recourse to remedies, but this is a very minor tinkering that has little effect on employment (given that it is more the shortage of jobs, rather than the risk of employing someone bad, that is keeping employers from employing more people).

Labour (30%) - their main policy platform appears to be a capital gains tax to fund their spending promises. They basically advocate spending more on all sectors (health, education, welfare) but the CGT by itself is nowhere near enough.

Greens (10%) - socialist party that agrees with everything Labour does. Despite claiming to be an environmentalist party, there really is nothing that differentiates them from Labour. They claim to be further to the left and care more about the environment, but that is more just a title and label rather than any difference in substance to what Labour is already advocating.

ACT (2%) - I support this party because I consider myself a Libertarian. They believe that tax cuts fuel the economy by encouraging investment. Unfortunately the personalities aren't popular so they receive very little share of the votes.

United Future (1%) - basically a one-man party who supports whichever party wins the election and just does some bureaucratic ministerial role in government. The leader appears to see politics as just his dayjob rather than someone who wants to have revolutionary policies to change the country.

Feel free to disagree and state your reasons.
Discretionary Duck
Profile Joined July 2011
148 Posts
August 01 2011 14:11 GMT
#2
Fuck, I completely forgot to include the Maori Party...
Discretionary Duck
Profile Joined July 2011
148 Posts
August 01 2011 14:14 GMT
#3
"It’s a shame likeability is so crucial in politics. It’s the quality that allows John Key to con his countrymen more royally than any other leader in the world right now" - John Ansell, former advertising executive to the National Party (under Brash) and ACT.
Deleted_143
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia256 Posts
August 01 2011 14:14 GMT
#4
--- Nuked ---
Discretionary Duck
Profile Joined July 2011
148 Posts
August 01 2011 14:21 GMT
#5
On August 01 2011 23:14 Klesky wrote:
Is the senate ready?
[image loading]

Lower house?
[image loading]

Speaker?
[image loading]

Alright, let's discuss politics.


New Zealand only has one house of Parliament, unlike Australia with two:

[image loading]

User was temp banned for this post.
Deleted_143
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia256 Posts
August 01 2011 14:23 GMT
#6
--- Nuked ---
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
August 01 2011 14:25 GMT
#7
Would be interesting how the economic stagnation is addressed.. GDP going from a high end 1st world country a few decades ago to a below-par low-end 1st world current status is a huge deal.
Aah thats the stuff..
Ledo
Profile Joined May 2011
Australia31 Posts
August 01 2011 14:25 GMT
#8
I steer clear of the greens, they have some good ideals but imo have a really stupid way of achieving things and have no idea how to handle fiscal issues.

Pictures very related ^.
I am a big deal
Matharos
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada211 Posts
August 01 2011 14:40 GMT
#9
This is sort of off topic, but it is in the spirit of Australia - New Zealand relations. :D

I assure you I don't have ferrets in my pants
Archaron
Profile Joined June 2011
New Zealand8 Posts
August 01 2011 14:58 GMT
#10
gotta love that act has the smae amount of votes as national and labours winning some people must be trolling or its just a terribly squed poll which is more likely
Discretionary Duck
Profile Joined July 2011
148 Posts
August 02 2011 01:41 GMT
#11
On August 01 2011 23:58 Archaron wrote:
gotta love that act has the smae amount of votes as national and labours winning some people must be trolling or its just a terribly squed poll which is more likely


There's only been a few votes so far...
whaty0uwant
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
New Zealand346 Posts
August 02 2011 01:48 GMT
#12
On August 01 2011 23:14 Klesky wrote:
Is the senate ready?
[image loading]

Lower house?
[image loading]

Speaker?
[image loading]

Alright, let's discuss politics.


You're a faggot.

User was temp banned for this post.
Belgo
Profile Joined September 2009
United States721 Posts
August 02 2011 01:54 GMT
#13
Wow, that didn't take long. I don't think shitting up a post, or even responding to that is a smart idea.
12 gateways being thrown down, which is standard transition after the two observatory opening
edwahn
Profile Joined March 2011
New Zealand121 Posts
August 02 2011 02:25 GMT
#14
always pleasantly surprised by the number of nzers on this forum...
Alethios
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
New Zealand2765 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-02 02:31:31
August 02 2011 02:30 GMT
#15
This thread seems more like a podium for the OPs personal opinions than a place for discussion.

Personally I support the uniformed Australian's derailment attempt. EDIT: In his defence, we used to have a senate!
When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love.
StendHalArt
Profile Joined May 2011
New Zealand55 Posts
August 02 2011 02:44 GMT
#16
ok going back to topic. there has been a lot of heat on national as they promised that unemployment would decrease, however since they have been in power the unemployment has increased. however we are in a recession, so unemployment was going to go up no matter who is in power. I feel that the policies of the other parties (especially labour) would worsen the recession problems in NZ. therefore at the moment I think that national are best party for NZ.
Bands that will change your life: The National, Arcade Fire, Phoenix (More to come)
Discretionary Duck
Profile Joined July 2011
148 Posts
August 02 2011 02:51 GMT
#17
On August 02 2011 11:30 Alethios wrote:
This thread seems more like a podium for the OPs personal opinions than a place for discussion.


The whole purpose of this thread though is to get the ideas started and then if people disagree with me they can post rebuttals and debate about it. I hardly went into detail as I could have easily talked about what my feelings are on the health system, the education system, the welfare system, etc... But all I did was give a broad summary of the different political philosophies of the various parties.
Aetherial
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia917 Posts
August 02 2011 02:51 GMT
#18
It's like choosing between a douche and a turd sandwich...

Note: I'm a kiwi citizen living in Australia, I may vote but they all seem like poor choices.
ggrrg
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Bulgaria2716 Posts
August 02 2011 05:10 GMT
#19
On August 02 2011 11:51 Aetherial wrote:
It's like choosing between a douche and a turd sandwich...


Isn't this always the case? Seems like it's rare for somebody to be happy about their choices of representation, but don't forget that not voting is the worst way to go about it, since you might end up with the worst possible outcome.
Anyway, just pick the douche, else you'll get the stinking turd...
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 04:10 GMT
#20
[image loading]

User was warned for this post
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 04:11 GMT
#21
"Let's stop Don-Key running loose" - Goff.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
RogerX
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
New Zealand3180 Posts
August 21 2011 04:14 GMT
#22
Lol wtf? Why did this turn into a thread where members based each other from where there from, even worse OP puts up biased pictures as a counter argument???... Weak...

Anyway, I have always trusted National, and I will stick with the National party
Stick it up. take it up. step aside and see the world
sickle
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
New Zealand656 Posts
August 21 2011 05:34 GMT
#23
I don't care too much about politics but I'll be voting for ACT because they are the only semi-decent party in NZ.
Flaunt
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
New Zealand784 Posts
August 21 2011 05:47 GMT
#24
http://sc2ranks.com/us/2946506/HelenClark she plays sc2. vote labour.
What? You seek something? You wish to multiply yourself tenfold, a hundredfold? You seek followers? Seek zeros!
FataLe
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand4492 Posts
August 21 2011 05:56 GMT
#25
On August 21 2011 14:47 Flaunt wrote:
http://sc2ranks.com/us/2946506/HelenClark she plays sc2. vote labour.
Hahaha. HAHAHAHA. Idk, that just struck a chord with me, ahh. Too young to vote, not mature enough to care about polotics at this stage.
hi. big fan.
Phyrigian
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
New Zealand1332 Posts
August 21 2011 06:05 GMT
#26
--- Nuked ---
iko
Profile Joined February 2010
New Zealand137 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 06:12:42
August 21 2011 06:11 GMT
#27
apolitical. i'm interested in getting more involved in national politics but it comes off as a daunting task as i don't know anyone else with a mutual interest who's knowledgeable enough on the subject. rather put my effort towards other tasks instead.

until then, i'm abstaining due to a largely uninformed opinion. american and european politics, however...
Avaek
Profile Joined June 2011
New Zealand49 Posts
August 21 2011 06:14 GMT
#28
ALCP

User was warned for this post
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 06:20 GMT
#29
Not only did you forget the Maori party, you forgot the Mana party. Shambolic OP all-round IMO.

The ACT party is pathetic with outdated and unpalatable policies (I study economics too btw so I'm a pro as well).

The National Party is just Labour but with arrogance and a wimpy leader. The average NZer who couldn't care less about politics just throws National their vote because John Key laughs and giggles and says "G'day how ya going?"

The Maori party started good, but has lost all its focus and is now just enjoying the perks of government.

Peter Dunne does fuck all and is only there because of some stupid worm which rose whenever he said "common sense".

I used to support Labour, but now I support the Greens, because it is basically like supporting Labour but with a stronger identity, voice and commitment to the party foundation. Also I just want to say that choosing John Key over Helen Clark (HELEN CLARK FFS) has got to be one of the worst election results in NZ history.
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 06:32 GMT
#30
On August 21 2011 15:20 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Not only did you forget the Maori party, you forgot the Mana party. Shambolic OP all-round IMO.

The ACT party is pathetic with outdated and unpalatable policies (I study economics too btw so I'm a pro as well).

The National Party is just Labour but with arrogance and a wimpy leader. The average NZer who couldn't care less about politics just throws National their vote because John Key laughs and giggles and says "G'day how ya going?"

The Maori party started good, but has lost all its focus and is now just enjoying the perks of government.

Peter Dunne does fuck all and is only there because of some stupid worm which rose whenever he said "common sense".

I used to support Labour, but now I support the Greens, because it is basically like supporting Labour but with a stronger identity, voice and commitment to the party foundation. Also I just want to say that choosing John Key over Helen Clark (HELEN CLARK FFS) has got to be one of the worst election results in NZ history.


If you had read the OP, you would see that he wrote that he was only including parties that were currently in Parliament - Hone is classified as an independent.

What are your economic qualifications? You just sound like someone from the Left who's entire post has been made up of personal attacks rather than actual discussion on policy differences.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
samuraibael
Profile Joined February 2008
Australia294 Posts
August 21 2011 06:33 GMT
#31
On August 01 2011 23:25 Ledo wrote:
I steer clear of the greens, they have some good ideals but imo have a really stupid way of achieving things and have no idea how to handle fiscal issues.

Pictures very related ^.


Opinions like this irritate me. Where is the evidence for this claim? As if some random member of the public understands economics and the mind of every relevant party member well enough to judge an entire political parties competency.
Its as if they imagine governments are like a child playing sim city.

OP when you are unbanned - I am always interested in how people who are strongly libertarian think about examples of successful socialism. How do you discount the correlation between high living standards and high taxes?
aFganFlyTrap
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia212 Posts
August 21 2011 06:41 GMT
#32
tax cuts fuel the economy and encourage investment? oh like over in America? gotcha!
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 07:15:58
August 21 2011 06:55 GMT
#33
On August 21 2011 15:41 aFganFlyTrap wrote:
tax cuts fuel the economy and encourage investment? oh like over in America? gotcha!


Here you go:

+ Show Spoiler +
Rodney Hide MP
Finance Spokesman
http://www.act.org.nz
Office: +64 4 4706630; Mobile: +64 25 772 385
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: 22 FEBRUARY 2000
For more information contact:
Trish Sherson: Office: +64 4 4706644; Mobile: +64 25 570 803
tricia.sherson@parliament.govt.nz
SPEECH
New Zealand On $100 Million A Day
Rodney Hide MP
January 1999


Love, Trade and Guns

+ Show Spoiler +
Aristotle observed that man is a social animal. And that’s certainly true. We spend so
much of our lives, most of our lives, very little of our lives doing anything other than
doing things for other people and having them do things for us. That’s how we live.
And when you think about it for a moment there are three ways and only three ways to
get another human being to do something for you.

The first, and I believe it’s the most powerful, is love. We do things for our wives, for
our husbands, for our children – and likewise they do things for us – simply because
they love us. And we can ask them to do things for us. And they will do them no
questions asked. We have close friends that will do things for us if we just ask them.
Love is an amazingly powerful force for people doing things for other people.

The incredible thing about love is that it quickly attenuates. It doesn’t reach down the
end of the street. So if your neighbour at the farthest end of the street asks you to do
something that your wife or your husband or your children might ask you to do, saying,
“Please, do it for love”, you’re unlikely to be moved that way. So love is powerful but
it’s just for a few people in our lives – our family and our closest friends.

The other great motivator – the other way of getting people to do things for us – is
through trade. “You do this for me and I will give you this. You give me that and I will
give you this”. And that ladies and gentlemen is the most powerful mechanism for
social organisation right around the world. It’s what we do in our work. Look around
this room and realise that everything here was produced by trade, by the capitalist
spirit, by markets, by business, by the search for profits. That’s the power of trade.
And it’s terribly respectful because it recognises that the other person doesn’t have to
do it. And so it gives them something in return and if they choose to do it, and the price
is right, they will.

There is a third way of getting people to do things for you: force, the gun. You put a
gun to a person’s head and you say “Do this, or I’m going to pull the trigger”. That is
the third way of getting people to do things for you.

Ladies and gentlemen, I am an MP, a Member of Parliament, I’m a politician. Today I
stand before you and I represent the gun. I represent the force in our society to get
things out of people.

Page 2

The gun and force have delivered nothing good in the world. This past century has
been a terribly destructive century. Millions have been killed because of the gun,
because of politicians and because of Government. And that’s what I stand before you
to represent and you people, you folks, you represent the traders. The people who
produce, not through the gun, but by getting out, making a living and trading.
The socialist of all descriptions are interesting because they hate trade. They hate the
thought that you can go to someone and do a deal. They hate that. They hate that
people can make money. They think it is somehow exploitative. And they believe that
everything should be done for love. They want all of society organised like we organise
our families.

And what happens when they try that? They quickly discover everywhere it has been
tried, all through the ages, that love doesn’t stretch far enough, that it doesn’t reach
down the street. And so we end up the totalitarian dictators with the gun at the
peoples’ head and saying if you’re not going to do it for love, you’re going to do it for
this reason because if you don’t do it I’ll pull the trigger.


Government Waste, Government Computers

+ Show Spoiler +
I think it’s fair to say talking to people here and listening to the conversations that you
think that Government wastes money. I think it is fair to say that people sitting in the
audience think that we have too much Government, too much bureaucracy. By the
time I finish here today, you’re going to know it. Because I’m going to take you on an
insider’s journey into politics. What the politicians don’t tell you about how it works and
I’m going to take you right back to the very day that I turned up in Parliament and some
of the things that I’ve learnt about what they’re doing with your money.

ACT campaigned for three years to get into Parliament with as a new “less tax, less
government” party and we achieved 6.2% of the vote and got eight seats. I’d worked
very, very hard, but I was like the dog chasing the car, having arrived in Parliament
following the election I didn't know what to do. No MP gets a job description, you don’t
have a boss and I flew to Wellington and I went in and got an office and I was sitting in
my office wondering, “What does an MP do”? There are MPs that have been there for
twenty years and still ask that question.

And there was a telephone there so I rang all my friends in Wellington. He wasn’t
home.

On my desk was a computer, so I turned it on. This to me symbolised so much. And
the computer starts. I’ve never heard a computer like this before. It goes, ga-ching,
ga-ching, ga-ching, ga-ching. It was like it was just not connecting with the network or
something. And I went out – like all Politicians do – to get a cup of coffee. And have a
rest. And I came back with my cup of coffee, and it’s still going, ga-ching, ga-ching, gaching,
ga-ching, ga-ching. And then after several minutes of this, I got “Windows”.

Amazing. And then I pushed the little icon for “Word”. Ga-ching, ga-ching, ga-ching,
ga-ching, ga-ching, and again, I finished my cup of coffee, and then it appeared
“Word”.

I started to type and it couldn’t keep up. “Hey, this isn’t good enough”, I thought. This
isn’t going to work, you know, I’m in Parliament, I’ve got to have the gear. So I got the
parliamentary directory. There’s a thousand people that work in Parliament in New
Zealand. I should say on the payroll in Parliament. A thousand people on the payroll
and I found there is a man in charge of computers called John Preval and I rung him
up. I said “Hello John, it’s Rodney Hide”. He said, “What can I do for you”. I said, “It’s
about my computer”. He said, “Hang on, I’ll be there in a minute”. And the door

Page 4

everyone just yawned – “Oh yeh, who cares?” But they heard about that $29,170 on
cabs and they said, “this is an outrage”. Because that is an amount that we can feel,
that is an amount that represents something and then you have to ask yourself, “how
could you spend $29,000 on a cab?”

That’s enough to go from Auckland to London and in Jonathan’s case, still have the
odd trip into town for dinner.

Five billion dollars that’s what the Government had just announced. Does anyone
know what a billion dollars looks like? Well, I will tell you. Imagine you have a bundle
of a hundred-dollar notes, it’s a centimetre thick. There’s ten thousand dollars in it.
You slap it down on the table, bang, put another bundle on top, there’s twenty
thousand, another bundle on top, that’s thirty thousand, that’s Jonathan’s taxi bill; it’s
only three centimetres high. Another bundle, forty, fifty, sixty thousand. How high does
a billion reach? It’s a kilometre. It’s a kilometre. We were worried about three
centimetres and the Government had just announced spending of five kilometres high
of hundred dollar notes. That’s how much a billion dollars represents. And so behind
that campaign to clean up the MPs and fund them properly and to reveal their
accounts, was a very serious message that these guys have got to get real with your
money which seems a reasonable ask I would have thought.


Building a Palace and the Beehive on Wheels

+ Show Spoiler +
The next big thing that happened and highlights about Government was the plans to
build the new executive wing. I moved into a new office tower and it is very nice and I
got wind of the fact that they were planning a new executive wing. And, I asked
around, it was going to cost one hundred million dollars, and I have to say I was new to
politics and a hundred million still sounded like a lot of money to me. So I inquired a bit
more and then discovered that we didn’t need this building. So the ACT caucus, eight
MPs met, and convinced ourselves that we didn’t need it and we would organise a
campaign against it.

Richard Prebble dubbed it the Parliamentary Palace, which did more to kill it than
anything else we did. Over 200,000 New Zealanders in three weeks signed a petition
opposing the Palace. That’s 10% of the voting public, against the Palace – mad
Socialists signed it, right wingers signed it, everyone signed it. People like us signed it
too. Sane, reasonable, intelligent people like us – signed that petition. That petition
came into Parliament and we forced a parliamentary inquiry. I forced it into the public
and so the select committee had to sit there and we heard from every interest group
under the sun, from the CTU, that is the Union, the hard core union, to the Business
Roundtable which is the sort of hard core business representative interest group lobby
in New Zealand, and they’re all against the Palace. Submission after submission after
submission said this Palace is nuts. There was only one submission that we got by the
way that was in favour of it and that was from a little union in the construction industry
based in Wellington. And they had some very cogent arguments that the committee
picked up on. We had three days of public hearings and we went back into committee.
Back in the Committee room, the MPs were all in favour of the Palace. “Well,” I said,
“that’s all right. Let’s vote on it. I’m against, who is for?” “Oh, I’m not going to vote,”
they said. I said, “Why not?” “Well, you will just tell everyone how we voted. You are
just going to go into our electorate and leaflet everyone and say, you know, that this
MP and that MP, and we all voted for the Palace.” And I said, “that’s right. Let’s vote.”
Oh, no one wanted to vote. We need to talk about it some more. We met for three

Page 5

further weeks to discuss it. Who is in property development in the audience? OK,
who’s done a hundred million-dollar development, that’s big, one hundred million is big.
I said let’s have a look at the financials. Don McKinnon who is the senior National
party politician on the fiscally-conservative side, he said, “You know it’s not a lot of
money Rodney, what are you beefing about?” It’s a hundred million. I now know what
he was getting at. Politicians in New Zealand spend one hundred million dollars each
and every day – three hundred and sixty five days of the year. A hundred million to a
politician is not a lot of money. But it’s a million New Zealanders paying one hundred
dollars. And a hundred dollars is a lot. And a million people is certainly a lot, and a
hundred million dollars is a lot.

We discovered that there were no financials done. There was no comparison of costs.
I kicked up about this and the financials were duly prepared. I have seen numbers,
ladies and gentlemen, that have been cooked. These weren’t cooked; they were
poached, they were fried, they were scrambled – the benefits were double-counted,
costs were netted out. It was just garbage. Turned out that we would have built this
one hundred million-dollar building for nothing – which is pretty impressive even by
New Zealand Government standards. We had the Minister in front of us and I started
to question him and his officials about these numbers. I got three minutes into it ladies
and gentlemen and the chairman of the select committee said, “Look, we don’t want to
get bogged down in the minutiae do we”, and shut me up. Talking about spending one
hundred million dollars to a politician is getting bogged down in the minutiae. Can you
believe that?

I was brought up a Protestant, I’m not religious now, but my parents were Methodist,
Presbyterian and Anglican, sounds like I had three parents, no, we moved around in
the country. And it has left me with this terrible thing about having fun. I don’t know
what Methodism was like outside of North Canterbury, but in North Canterbury having
fun was sinful and the next thing was spending money. And to this day I still struggle
spending money. I was brought up that you just earned money, I don’t what you did
with it, you just put it in your sock, like my father did, and you just let inflation take care
of it. And so I have this terrible problem about spending money and here I am a
politician spending millions and millions and millions.

I go home most nights with a knot in my stomach just from watching millions and
millions being spent, you can imagine how it feels. And you walk out of Parliament or
you come home to Auckland or you go on the road and you go to the Taranaki or to
Gisborne, or you go anywhere, and you see how hard people work and you see what
ten or twenty or thirty dollars a week means to them and you view and realise the
contempt with which Government and politicians spend that money and it makes me
personally ill. Because it is not our money to spend. It’s your money. And I think you
should spend other people’s money much more carefully than you spend your own. Of
course, we do the reverse.

By the way, politicians enjoy it. Just like the IRD enjoy watching you shiver and shake,
politicians enjoy spending money and I know this for a fact because I was sitting in a
committee once and a politician slumped down beside me and to give him his due, he
was from the left wing party and so I guess by wasting money he was following their
policy line, but he just said “You won’t believe what has just happened in the meeting
we just had”. I said “What’s that?” He said “We just agreed to spend another two
million dollars, imagine that,” and he started laughing and I said “What on?” And he
said, “Buggered if I know. But two million, can you imagine it?” I said, “I might tell
audiences that”, and he shut up.

Page 6

Five months previously he had been an ordinary bloke, toiling away. Got elected to
Parliament, suddenly had access to the back pocket of all the people in this room. And
he had just raided it and spent some dough and it felt good. It felt great. Felt that he
was doing God’s work and improving the Ministry of Women’s Affairs. Because they
work hard, do lots of good work.

But back to this Palace. So we struggled around with it and they didn’t want to vote.
And we got all the plans out and everyone was trying to look for a way forward and I
was obstinate. And what I have decided to do in politics is that I don’t fight all the
battles that one can fight, I just pick one or two, and I just be obstinate on those one or
two. They had all the plans out and you will know that Parliament has this beautiful old
stone building, built in the depression, and then beside that, that ugly Beehive built in
sixties, and someone said, “Isn’t it a shame that the Beehive is right where it is,
because if it wasn’t there we could finish Parliament”. So I said “Well, why don’t we
shift the Beehive.” I said it as a joke. The next week we came back and the officials
had prepared plans for shifting the Beehive. The Beehive weighs 20,000 tons, it’s solid
concrete, it would have been the third largest building in the world ever to have been
shifted. All you need to know about the economics of shifting large buildings is that the
other two were all in the former USSR. I am sitting there with a typical political
dilemma. What do I do now? Everyone is jumping about, saying, “Yeah, we’ll shift the
Beehive, what do you think Rodney?”

I decided on a cunning plan. I said, “That’s a good idea, let’s look at it.” We would
write the report saying, “We would shift the Beehive subject to getting the costs
checked out” and that would get the committee moving, everyone would laugh like you
did about shifting the Beehive and it would kill it, and would kill the Palace with it,
because we recommended against the Palace. So all that happened, the report was
prepared, and New Zealanders, you will remember this, they just roared with horror,
laughter, disgust, that here they had prepared a 200,000 signed petition, they had gone
to the select committee and beaten up the politicians, and the politicians had gone
away and thought about it saying, “The people of New Zealand don’t want to waste
money on a Palace, so we will spend twice that and we will shift the Beehive”.
At that point voters started to think that their government was out of touch. And I
thought – that’s great, that’s it dead!

Three weeks later I get a phone call from the Holmes Show saying, “The Prime
Minister has just announced that as part of the millennium project, the Government is
going to shift the Beehive”. I couldn’t believe it. I went on the Holmes Show with the
Prime Minister. And he was losing. I didn’t have to say much. I just kept saying “put it
on wheels Prime Minister, put it on wheels Prime Minister?” And I just shook my head
like this guy is nuts. I didn’t say anything, I just shook my head – what is wrong with
this guy? And then Prime Minister Bolger, got on the attack and he said “But Rodney
Hide, Rodney Hide, you were part of the committee that recommended this”. And I
was just sitting there and the camera just went on me, and I felt like saying “It was only
a joke Prime Minister – I never thought anyone would be stupid enough to ever take it
seriously.” But I faded at the critical moment and I said something a bit softer than that.
And of course, the public were outraged and that was killed.

But think about it, hundred million. We spend a hundred times that in New Zealand on
welfare a year. A hundred times that, on welfare in a year and what do we buy?
Misery, broken homes, kids not being looked after. Do we see a petition being
generated about that – no.

But these examples illustrate the politician’s propensity to spend money without regard
to the people who earned it. To the people that it actually belongs to, to the people that

Page 7

we represent and who give us this money, presumably for good purpose, not for bad
purpose. And that’s what’s happened around Governments around the world.


The Spending Culture

+ Show Spoiler +
About this time in Parliament I realised I was suffering some sort of cultural shock.
When you do any job, it has a culture and you quickly learn it and you get comfortable
with it. I used to drive trucks a lot as a living and when you are a truck driver, you meet
other truck drivers and you talk about horse power, and tonnage, and the quickest
routes, and who can carry the most the fastest, and you have that smell of diesel about
you. I then went in and taught at university, and the same thing. You talk about
lecturing and about students learning and about research. And that has a culture too.
If you’re in business, it has a culture of profit and loss, of talking about customers, of
talking about what works and here I was in Parliament, and this culture just didn’t fit. It
didn’t make sense, I was out of tune with it. I felt like a person behind enemy lines.
The language was all different. The social mores were all different. Everything was
different about it to what anything I had ever experienced in my life.

And I have discovered what it is. It is because Parliament and politics and
Governments and politicians, we don’t produce anything actually. We don’t produce
anything. And it is very hard to have a culture like that you are familiar with if you’re not
producing something, because that’s what you talk about, that’s your reason for getting
up in the morning, to go there and get in that truck and shift some freight, or teach
some kids, or make some money. Politics? The only thing we do is spend and that is
the culture, it is a spending culture. There’s not a problem out there that a politician
can’t fix by throwing more of your money at it. He knows actually, and she knows, that
it won’t fix it, but it looks good. There you go, throw some money, that will fix it.
Where’s the next one? And people love you when you throw money at them even
though it is their money. Sort of with about 50% siphoned off on the way through. So
it’s a spending culture.

There is another thing about politics that I discovered. I call politics “decision making
without property rights” because no politician or Government Official owns anything.
They don’t have any assets, and they don’t have any liabilities, as we understand the
phrase. So, no one fixes problems. No one says yeah, that’s a problem let’s fix it.
People in this room, you all have assets and liabilities. If your business or your
property is in trouble you have got to put your hand up and fix it, because it is your
responsibility, you know it, and if you don’t fix it, it is going to cost you. In politics we’re
not like that. Ho, here’s a problem, oh good, shove it to that guy, flick, and he gets it
and oh, oh, I don’t want this problem, so flick. And then finally what we do is we just
shuffle problems into the future for someone else to deal with and then we think that’s a
solution. And you can see problems being shunted around in sound bites on TV.

It is nothing like the capitalist process where there is an owner, where there is an
asset, where future income streams are being capitalised in the value of that asset and
you have to respond to the costs and benefits of that stream and do something about
them. Nothing like that exists in politics. It is all fluff and no substance and that’s why,
that’s why, we look through the veil of politics and feel so deeply frustrated and so
irritated because we know there are real problems in education and health and in
welfare and with Government spending and with bureaucrats out of control, but no-one
in Government will put their hand up and say, “yes, I am responsible for that, watch me,
I’ll fix it”. Never. They shift the problem on to someone else.

Page 8


Politicians’ Life Blood

+ Show Spoiler +
And of course, the root cause of all of this is tax. Tax, it is the lifeblood of the political
process. It’s our ability to get money out of peoples’ pay packets, out of their weekly
budgets, out of the petrol that they buy, out of everything that they do, that feeds us
and allows us to survive. And the tax laws are hugely complex, no one can follow
them. I recently had the New Zealand Inland Revenue Commissioner Graham Holland
before a select committee. And I said, “Commissioner, do you understand the tax laws
of New Zealand”. He just looked at me. Then the committee chairman beat me up and
said, “Oh, you can’t abuse the Commissioner of Inland Revenue like that”. “I wasn’t
abusing him, I was just interested, does he understand the law that here we are
passing”. He doesn’t. The Commissioner of Inland Revenue doesn’t understand all
the tax laws. The dairy owner has to. The plumber has to. Every property developer
has to. But no one can, no-one can sit in this room and feel comfortable that they’ve
obeyed the tax laws of New Zealand because you don’t understand them and take it
from me folks, I sit on the Committee and in the Parliament that passes these things,
and we don’t understand them. We do not understand the tax laws that pass in New
Zealand, it is the same in Australia, the same in Canada, it’s the same in the United
States.

We had to employ a QC on the select committee to advise us about what the IRD were
telling us about the law because we couldn’t understand it. He got confused. They
ended up concluding that the law, this was on international tax, they concluded that it
wasn't perfect, it had a lot of mistakes in it, but we would pass it anyway and fix it up
next year. Can you imagine running your business like that. And we’re running the
country. We not only spend money ladies and gentlemen, we make laws just to put
you in the right box.

Tell you one law we passed, it was under urgency. Urgency is a big deal. It goes into
urgency, important things to be done. You sit there all hours and everyone fights and
scraps – I love it. And came up under urgency and people may have missed this. But
we passed in 1997, under urgency, the Medical Auxiliary (Podiatrists) Amendment Bill.
Now podiatrists are foot doctors, you know they blow your corns off and cut your
toenails. And we had a very serious problem confronting New Zealand. Because, we
have a Podiatrists’ Board just to check that the people that are doing podiatry are
kosher, and they have a set of exams and a certificate that you get and in 1984 the
Government changes the rules and said, because we had immigrant podiatrists, and
they just used to come in and they would satisfy the board and they would get a
certificate too. But the Government in 1984 changed the rules and said, that they
could no longer just come in willy nilly, but they have to sit the New Zealand exam for
podiatry in order to be duly qualified. That was great, that passed in 1984. However,
no one told the Podiatrists’ Board. And of course, you remember the 1984-1996
period, podiatrists were just sweeping into New Zealand from overseas and the
Podiatrists’ Board was giving them their certificates if they said they said that they had
been taught at Harvard or somewhere. But this was illegal. And so what we had to do
was pass under urgency, retrospective legislation that would enable eleven immigrant
podiatrists to practice here in New Zealand like they had been doing for several years.
I don’t know about you folks but I find it sort of scary that we have a Podiatrists’ Board.
I find it sort of scary that you need a licence to cut someone’s toenails for a fee. I find it
sort of scary that Parliament had to pass a law to make it legal for eleven immigrant
podiatrists to practice here. What I find really scary was that our Parliament spent one
hour and forty minutes debating it.

At the time, our schools are in crisis, kids are going there spending years and years of
school not getting educated, our health system is a mess, 120,000 people queued up

Page 9

in agony — paid tax all their life, can’t get treated. Pension schemes busted with a
bang, it’s bankrupt. We had the downturn that was winding down the economy,
provincial New Zealand was bleeding, but don’t worry, we’re in Parliament under
urgency debating for one hour and forty minutes the Medical Auxiliary (Podiatrists)
Amendment Bill to make sure eleven podiatrists weren’t here acting illegally. If you
ever wonder why politicians are so boring, you try talking for ten minutes about
podiatry. And about the effect illegal immigrants practising podiatry has on the social
fabric of New Zealand. I watched it done.

So we pass laws, we pass laws, we pass tax laws and the tax laws that we have in
New Zealand, we don’t understand them, thousands and thousands of pages of these,
we’re supposed comply, God knows how you can. And think about the power that they
shift across to the tax department. The awesome powers and the comparison is to the
Police.


IRD Powers

+ Show Spoiler +
In New Zealand, the IRD can bust into your business, into your dairy, into your
plumbing shop, into your farm, they can bust into it, any hour of the day and they don’t
need a warrant. The Police can’t do that. The Police might be chasing Son of Sam
and they’ve got to get a warrant. They might be chasing the worst rapist in history and
they’ve got to get a warrant, and they are trained. But these IRD officers with very little
training, who are up against, you know, really scary people like plumbers and
paperhangers, people that work for a living. They have powers to enter your business
at the drop of a hat and do a search. Your Parliament gave that department those
powers. They have powers to require you to answer every question that they put to
you. If you are scumbag murderer or rapist, you can say, “I’m not answering that
question”, but if you are a dairy owner you had better, and it’s the IRD you have to,
because if you don’t they can hit you with a fine for $25,000.

Are we starting to talk like our values are upside down. That we have rights to protect
the criminal class but the productive class, the working class, the people that create all
the wealth have no rights when confronted with the tax department after its pound of
flesh and pint of blood.

They have the ability to assert that you owe a debt and it is your job to prove that you
don’t. Nowhere else in our legal processes do we have that. We believe that we
have a free society, a capitalist society, a democracy where you’re innocent until you
are proven guilty. That’s true if you’re a murderer, that’s true if you’re a rapist, that’s
true if you’re a burglar, that’s true if you’re a thug, but if you’re a taxpayer, it’s not true.
You are guilty until you prove that you are innocent. So the department can allege a
million-dollar debt and you have to prove that you don’t owe it. How can you prove that
you don’t owe it, when you don’t even know what it’s about? And they’re not required
by law to tell you what it’s about. They can just assert it. Not only can they assert a
debt against you, but even before it goes to Court you have to cough up half. Can you
imagine that? You’re paying for your lawyers, you’re paying for your accountants,
you’ve got this big debt, you have to pay half even before your case is heard. This is
an outrage. And these tax laws are having a huge consequence. There are two
problems with tax. It’s too much, and the laws are too vicious.

The IRD made a mistake a few years back. They brought in some overseas
economists to study the economic impact of tax in New Zealand. They discovered,
contrary to what the IRD thought would happen, that tax is way too high. The IRD
believe their propaganda and believe that tax is great and it’s the price we pay for
civilisation. These economists searching in New Zealand said that if we’d had the tax
take of 20% or 25%, which is still too high, but which is what we had post-war through

Page 10

the fifties and sixties, if we had that tax take in New Zealand today, rather than 35%,
that New Zealand would be 50% wealthier. Can you imagine that? Fifty percent
wealthier. It’s not just what they have taken off us that we lose, it is all the lost
opportunities, it’s all the investments, it’s all the businesses, it’s all the jobs that would
have been, if the tax rate hadn’t been so high. Imagine how much richer you would
have been if we hadn’t have had tax for all those years?

You think the department and the politicians would get that report and say, “Oh, this is
great news! We know how to get the economy moving. We know how to create jobs”.
No. They suppressed it. They wouldn’t release it. It took me over twelve months
hounding the department with official information requests as an MP to get my hands
on those documents. This research was paid for with our money. And still they
wouldn’t cough it up, and so tax is having a tremendous impact on our economy, on
our businesses, on our jobs at an economic level but at a personal level too, because
how can you operate in business confidently, concentrating on your customer,
concentrating on your costs when you’ve got this band of thugs, state-sanctioned
thugs, ready to pounce? How can you operate with confidence and with joy as you go
about your job?

I want to end with just one story. There is a guy in New Zealand, he lived on the Kapiti
coast. Ian Lee Mutton was his name. He was a good guy. Father, husband, two little
kiddies, and he was a good sportsman, and he worked and he liked a wee drink and
having fun. And his business was, and he worked hard at it, was putting in air
conditioning units in new office towers. And he had a dream, he dreamt that rather
than working for other people he could go out into business on his own. And he did
that. And he was good at the work, but he was a lousy businessman. He quoted too
low, some of his people didn’t pay, and the costs got out of control. But he persevered
and he learnt. He got to the end of one year 1992, and he owed $6,000 terminal tax.
No big deal, knew he owed it, was going to pay it.

He then had an accident off a ladder at work and broke his ankle and couldn’t work.
He had been assessed for this tax, and the demands kept coming. His ACC, such as it
is for self-employed didn’t come, even though he had been paying it all these years.
So he and his family were suffering no end. Here he was hobbling around on crutches.
He went repeatedly to the IRD with his wife saying, “Look, I can’t pay this”. They
wouldn’t listen to him. He had to pay, they’re the rules. He says, “I’m not working”,
doesn’t matter. He gets back to work, someone smashes his utility up and he has to
spend more money so he can keep working. He pays his tax that year, he pays his tax
the next year, he pays in his next year more tax than he has ever paid in his life as a
percentage. And he gets to the end of that year, and he owes more than he did at the
start. Because the penalties and the interest are just overwhelming him. His
accountant and his business manager go in to see the IRD begging them to give this
guy some relief. He’s working hard, here’s all his accounts, give him some relief. They
wouldn’t.

His marriage split up, his wife couldn’t take the pressure. He was behaving strangely,
the pressure was huge on him. That bills were just being generated by that horrible
computer that the IRD has and they would be arriving at his house in envelopes and in
the finish, he couldn’t even open them, he just threw them in the bin. In his final year,
he went on booze a bit. He didn’t pay any tax, so it mounted, and the debt got to
$45,000. He then snapped out of it, he stopped the drinking, he got back with his wife,
he realised that he had to make his business go bankrupt, stop his dreams, stop his
aspirations. And he got a job working in Queenstown, putting in air conditioning units
working for someone else. All he had in the world at that point was a utility worth
$5,000 and $1,100 worth of tools.

Page 11

On the day that he was to leave to Queenstown to take up his new job, the IRD turned
up. They wanted the ute, and the tools, to offset the debt. They were going to take the
very means that he had to make a living. He drove the utility up to the Otaki Gorge and
killed himself. He penned before he died a message to the IRD, saying that “you are
responsible for this, that you have taken everything that I ever had, that I now leave this
world like I came into it, with nothing, but that I beat you, because you no longer going
to get any more out of me,” and he signed, the last thing he did on earth, was to sign
that note, “one happy man”.

The IRD got that note, they turned up at the widow’s house wanting the ute and the
tools. She then, ladies and gentlemen, goes outside and stands on the porch and sees
her twelve-year-old son hanging dead from the tree. He couldn’t take his father’s
death. The IRD have never apologised, never said they have done wrong.

These laws, ladies and gentlemen, they are not just costing us jobs, they’re not just
putting us in fear, but they’re costing good people their lives. That’s what our tax laws
are doing in this country.

And do you know, the basic amount of money that the IRD were chasing Ian Lee
Mutton for wouldn’t pay for one MP’s taxi for a year. Are our values upside down or
not?

I want to leave you with this message. I’m a politician, I’m in Parliament, we have the
guns. We have the flash cars and we have the flags. It’s great driving in a car with
flags. But we have no moral authority. Because we produce nothing. We generate
nothing. We are parasitical on the taxpayers of New Zealand. We are parasitical on
Ian Lee Mutton and we are parasitical on each and every person in this room. The
moral authority, ladies and gentlemen, rests with each and everyone of you, because,
you are the producers, you are the workers, you are the creators, not Government, not
politicians, not bureaucrats, you are. And we will make progress in knocking back the
state when each of you, and I think every one in this room have already done this, but
you need to get your neighbours to do it, and your friends to do it, and your family to do
it, say, “We are not asking government for anything” – because when you ask
Government for things, that’s when you lose your moral authority, that’s when they get
it, and they’re only going to take more than they ever give. Don’t ask the Government
for anything. That’s the key to getting taxes down, and the key to getting taxes down is
say, “This is my money, I earnt it, don’t you spend it”, and ladies and gentlemen, I truly
believe we are going to have a revolution around the western world and it’s going to
start in New Zealand. Because we’ve had enough. It is going to start in New Zealand
and spread to Australia and Australia is going to start cutting its taxes. And when
people see what that is doing to our economy and to our people, America and Canada
will follow. Europe will follow. Because the world is a competitive place and if one
country starts dramatically cutting its taxes, all countries will have to follow. And let’s
hope and pray and work towards that day. Because ladies and gentlemen, when we
have that day, we will have more love, we will have more trade, and we will have less
gun. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is something worth working towards.

ENDS
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
CaucasianAsian
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
Korea (South)11573 Posts
August 21 2011 07:07 GMT
#34
spoiler that please.
Calendar@ Fish Server: `iOps]..Stark
ThunderGod
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
New Zealand897 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 07:16:48
August 21 2011 07:16 GMT
#35
Yo you forgot page 3!

Edit: I wanted to know what happened to the computer
"Certain forms of popular music nowadays, namely rap and hip hop styles, are just irritating gangsters bragging about their illegal exploits and short-sighted lifestyles." - Shiverfish ~2009
lothar10
Profile Joined June 2011
New Zealand9 Posts
August 21 2011 07:44 GMT
#36
This will be a fun thread I'm sure.

OP, what exact economics did you study that said that the party that focuses on saving rather than spending would govern best? Did you mean reducing expenditure (especially welfare) while lowering taxes especially the marginal rates on high income earners in the hope it will 'trickle down'?

I guess almost every party has a policy or two that make sense and you've got to choose the lesser of many evils unless you choose to not vote

Certainly seems a lot changed in Rodney's views of the evils of overspending bureaucrats in the 12 years since that speech as well.
I could eat a knob at night
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 08:11 GMT
#37
On August 21 2011 15:32 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 15:20 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Not only did you forget the Maori party, you forgot the Mana party. Shambolic OP all-round IMO.

The ACT party is pathetic with outdated and unpalatable policies (I study economics too btw so I'm a pro as well).

The National Party is just Labour but with arrogance and a wimpy leader. The average NZer who couldn't care less about politics just throws National their vote because John Key laughs and giggles and says "G'day how ya going?"

The Maori party started good, but has lost all its focus and is now just enjoying the perks of government.

Peter Dunne does fuck all and is only there because of some stupid worm which rose whenever he said "common sense".

I used to support Labour, but now I support the Greens, because it is basically like supporting Labour but with a stronger identity, voice and commitment to the party foundation. Also I just want to say that choosing John Key over Helen Clark (HELEN CLARK FFS) has got to be one of the worst election results in NZ history.


If you had read the OP, you would see that he wrote that he was only including parties that were currently in Parliament - Hone is classified as an independent.

What are your economic qualifications? You just sound like someone from the Left who's entire post has been made up of personal attacks rather than actual discussion on policy differences.


This coming from someone whose major contribution to this thread has been posting a picture of Phil Goff with two donkeys?

First of all, I read the OP, and I saw that he wrote that he was only including parties that were currently in Parliament. So I was baffled as to why he didn't include the Mana party, which as you can see here (http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/Parties/) and here (http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/Parties/Mana/4/3/0/00PlibMPPMana1-Mana.htm), is clearly a current party with one member. Why did you say Hone is classified as an independent? I don't understand why you said that.

I guess my sarcasm was too subtle when I said I am a pro because I study economics. The point I should have made was, I have studied economics from Year 10 through to now, my 4th year doing a BCom in Economics and LLB (age 14 to 21). From this. I don't pretend to know enough practical economics to seriously argue in detail on national economics and finance issues (admittedly, my true focus is on law). My point relates to this comment by the OP:

I have selected ACT. The main reason is because having studied economics at university I find it hard to see any other party whose focus is on saving rather than spending.


...indicates that he deems his economic study/knowledge gained at university to be the major factor in deciding which party to vote for (this is what I think the OP meant, ie ACT's economic policy makes the most economic sense to him given his economic knowledge). Actually, reading the quote literally, he says he chose ACT because they are the only party that focuses on saving rather than spending. He was able to identify this BECAUSE HE HAS STUDIED ECONOMICS. Sure, learn as much economics as you want, but I think just reading all the party manifestos would be a quicker way to gauge this!

Seriously though, my major problem with the ACT party is as follows. Sure they want to 'save', but where do they save? Their policy is to give major tax breaks to the wealthiest NZers and to businesses. This is massive spending, not saving. So where are ACT's so-called savings? Oh, well, 'cut the bureaucrats', 'get rid of pointless government agencies' etc. Those are jobs. Those are established services.

Also, their law and order policy is typical, failed and populist 'hard-line sentences' bullshit. Good luck saving with all those extra inmates costing you more to look after than individual dole payments, ACT.
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
FYRE
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
New Zealand314 Posts
August 21 2011 08:17 GMT
#38
Hope the Bill and Ben party run for it again, all the actual parties have policies that are just flat out retarded.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 08:21 GMT
#39
On August 21 2011 17:11 CaptainCharisma wrote:
This coming from someone whose major contribution to this thread has been posting a picture of Phil Goff with two donkeys?


Touche.

First of all, I read the OP, and I saw that he wrote that he was only including parties that were currently in Parliament. So I was baffled as to why he didn't include the Mana party, which as you can see here (http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/Parties/) and here (http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/Parties/Mana/4/3/0/00PlibMPPMana1-Mana.htm), is clearly a current party with one member. Why did you say Hone is classified as an independent? I don't understand why you said that.


Well I don't know whether Hone had officially established the Mana Party yet when the OP was created. He was kicked out of the Maori Party and classified as an independent for a while. Also if you read the OP's post directly below his OP you will note that he said he forgot to include the Maori Party. If you are offended by this, then perhaps you need to lighten your sensitivities.

And the point I am making is this - regardless of whether you or the OP are correct, your attitude is ass and if you actually made an effort to explain why you support the Greens rather than just attacking the PM's personality without any substance to back up your claims then maybe people would think about it and agree with you. Because of your negative attitude, and if such an attitude is common amongst Green campaigners, then they're hardly going to earn any support because people will feel unwelcome and threatened by such an abusive demeanour.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
nodnod
Profile Joined April 2011
New Zealand172 Posts
August 21 2011 08:27 GMT
#40
with all the rugby world cup business i almost forgot we have an election this year lol
Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 08:47:56
August 21 2011 08:37 GMT
#41
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defence for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.

Oh, and the OP's analysis of the Greens is shit. Having subscribed to their newsletter I happen to know that they do A LOT of what they claim to for the environment. Or at least do their best to, which is all you can expect.

Also, 'socialist party that agrees with everything Labour does' is actually not a legitimate criticism of the party, if that's what it was intended to be. Firstly, it's wrong, secondly, so what if Labour and Greens sometimes (or even often) agree? Are parties not allowed to agree on things? You should be criticising the policies they agree on (if you find them disagreeable), not the fact that they agree.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 08:45 GMT
#42
On August 21 2011 17:37 Swede wrote:
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defence for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.


Interesting perspective you have there, that in your opinion it was previously OK to commit child abuse if you used reasonable force. I was not aware of this previous law which said that reasonable force was a defence for child abuse. I had thought that child abuse was against the law, but thanks to you I am now informed that previously it was OK to commit child abuse so long as you used reasonable force.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Nancial
Profile Joined July 2011
197 Posts
August 21 2011 08:48 GMT
#43
I don't live in australia, but im a libertarian too.
Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
August 21 2011 08:54 GMT
#44
On August 21 2011 17:45 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 17:37 Swede wrote:
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defense for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.


Interesting perspective you have there, that in your opinion it was previously OK to commit child abuse if you used reasonable force. I was not aware of this previous law which said that reasonable force was a defense for child abuse. I had thought that child abuse was against the law, but thanks to you I am now informed that previously it was OK to commit child abuse so long as you used reasonable force.


I'm not sure what this post is about. It seems like a really misguided attempt at being an a-hole, but I can't be certain. Clarification?
Dali.
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand689 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 08:56:06
August 21 2011 08:55 GMT
#45
On August 21 2011 17:45 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 17:37 Swede wrote:
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defence for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.


Interesting perspective you have there,that in your opinion it was previously OK to commit child abuse if you used reasonable force. I was not aware of this previous law which said that reasonable force was a defence for child abuse. I had thought that child abuse was against the law, but thanks to you I am now informed that previously it was OK to commit child abuse so long as you used reasonable force.


Its called a loophole. My mother worked with underprivileged kids at a kindergarten who would come in with bruises obviously NOT from childsplay and there was nothing that could be done because CYFS knew there was almost no chance of convicting them unless the situation escalated.

Don't act so smug. Its pathetic, especially when at the expense of abused children.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 08:57:52
August 21 2011 08:55 GMT
#46
On August 21 2011 17:21 Kiwifruit wrote:

Well I don't know whether Hone had officially established the Mana Party yet when the OP was created. He was kicked out of the Maori Party and classified as an independent for a while. Also if you read the OP's post directly below his OP you will note that he said he forgot to include the Maori Party. If you are offended by this, then perhaps you need to lighten your sensitivities.


The Mana party was established in May of this year (see my second link above) and Hone Harawira had won the Te Tai Tokerau by-election by the 25th June according to this article (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5193349/Hone-Harawira-wins-Te-Tai-Tokerau-by-election-slashes-margin). In any event, it was clear some two months ago that Mana would have a seat in Parliament leading up to the next election.

Again, you seem to have a problem with this. I did read that the OP said he forgot the Maori party, as I made clear in the first line of my first post in this thread. I'm not 'offended' by this, I said the OP was shambolic in general. This was driven by the lack of two current parties in the poll and the overall bad quality of the OP in general (e.g. the loaded party descriptions).

On August 21 2011 17:21 Kiwifruit wrote:
And the point I am making is this - regardless of whether you or the OP are correct, your attitude is ass and if you actually made an effort to explain why you support the Greens rather than just attacking the PM's personality without any substance to back up your claims then maybe people would think about it and agree with you. Because of your negative attitude, and if such an attitude is common amongst Green campaigners, then they're hardly going to earn any support because people will feel unwelcome and threatened by such an abusive demeanour.


Don't deflect it to the OP, you, personally, were wrong about Harawira. Also, I think the reason you think my attitude is 'ass' is because I am wiping the floor with you and you don't like it. That last part of your response was just garbage rhetoric.

Stay tuned, an in-depth post from me explaining exactly why I like the Greens may well be forthcoming!

Also, your response to Swede was complete bullshit and I will explain why later when I have the time.

Edit: On the smacking part, the people above have given good responses too. <3

EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 08:56 GMT
#47
On August 21 2011 17:54 Swede wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 17:45 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:37 Swede wrote:
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defense for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.


Interesting perspective you have there, that in your opinion it was previously OK to commit child abuse if you used reasonable force. I was not aware of this previous law which said that reasonable force was a defense for child abuse. I had thought that child abuse was against the law, but thanks to you I am now informed that previously it was OK to commit child abuse so long as you used reasonable force.


I'm not sure what this post is about. It seems like a really misguided attempt at being an a-hole, but I can't be certain. Clarification?


It would have been better if you were honest and said that the change in social policy was to remove reasonable force as a defence for child discipline/spanking. To label it child abuse is saying any parent who smacked their children previously was 'abusing' them, or 'committing child abuse'. In that case, I could go around telling people that because my mum and dad used to smack me I am a victim of child abuse, and that I was abused as a child. Are you also a victim of child abuse?
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 08:58 GMT
#48
On August 21 2011 17:55 Dali. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 17:45 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:37 Swede wrote:
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defence for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.


Interesting perspective you have there,that in your opinion it was previously OK to commit child abuse if you used reasonable force. I was not aware of this previous law which said that reasonable force was a defence for child abuse. I had thought that child abuse was against the law, but thanks to you I am now informed that previously it was OK to commit child abuse so long as you used reasonable force.


Its called a loophole. My mother worked with underprivileged kids at a kindergarten who would come in with bruises obviously NOT from childsplay and there was nothing that could be done because CYFS knew there was almost no chance of convicting them unless the situation escalated.

Don't act so smug. Its pathetic, especially when at the expense of abused children.


I likewise volunteered with Barnardos in 2008. I agree that it was a loophole. I disagree with Swede's labeling of parents who used to smack their kids as child abusers.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
sickle
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
New Zealand656 Posts
August 21 2011 08:58 GMT
#49
On August 21 2011 17:56 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 17:54 Swede wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:45 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:37 Swede wrote:
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defense for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.


Interesting perspective you have there, that in your opinion it was previously OK to commit child abuse if you used reasonable force. I was not aware of this previous law which said that reasonable force was a defense for child abuse. I had thought that child abuse was against the law, but thanks to you I am now informed that previously it was OK to commit child abuse so long as you used reasonable force.


I'm not sure what this post is about. It seems like a really misguided attempt at being an a-hole, but I can't be certain. Clarification?


It would have been better if you were honest and said that the change in social policy was to remove reasonable force as a defence for child discipline/spanking. To label it child abuse is saying any parent who smacked their children previously was 'abusing' them, or 'committing child abuse'. In that case, I could go around telling people that because my mum and dad used to smack me I am a victim of child abuse, and that I was abused as a child. Are you also a victim of child abuse?


The change in the law was completely overblown by the media. In the current law you can still smack your children as long as its reasonable.
Dali.
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand689 Posts
August 21 2011 09:01 GMT
#50
On August 21 2011 17:56 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 17:54 Swede wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:45 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:37 Swede wrote:
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defense for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.


Interesting perspective you have there, that in your opinion it was previously OK to commit child abuse if you used reasonable force. I was not aware of this previous law which said that reasonable force was a defense for child abuse. I had thought that child abuse was against the law, but thanks to you I am now informed that previously it was OK to commit child abuse so long as you used reasonable force.


I'm not sure what this post is about. It seems like a really misguided attempt at being an a-hole, but I can't be certain. Clarification?


It would have been better if you were honest and said that the change in social policy was to remove reasonable force as a defence for child discipline/spanking. To label it child abuse is saying any parent who smacked their children previously was 'abusing' them, or 'committing child abuse'. In that case, I could go around telling people that because my mum and dad used to smack me I am a victim of child abuse, and that I was abused as a child. Are you also a victim of child abuse?


Considering the nature of physical discipline - used to show right from wrong for those unable to make rational decisions for themselves - should we strike mentally disabled peoples of all ages to teach them? Assuming they fit into the above criteria?
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 09:02 GMT
#51
On August 21 2011 17:55 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Don't deflect it to the OP, you, personally, were wrong about Harawira. Also, I think the reason you think my attitude is 'ass' is because I am wiping the floor with you and you don't like it. That last part of your response was just garbage rhetoric.


Actually you are not wiping the floor, all you are doing is making ad hominum attacks on the parties you disagree with. The OP (currently banned) stated that what he had written was his opinion and that people were free to disagree. You on the other hand simply come in here attacking John Key as being weak (not giving examples), state that the majority who voted for him resulted in the worst election result as if it were a self-explaining statement of fact as to why it was the worst result, and discard ACT's policies as being bullshit and hardline populist without explaining what the flaws of those policies are. You are the one who is full of garbage rhetoric and you are unable to see that from a different perspective nothing you say is actually explaining everything - rather all you are doing is attacking personalities without providing facts or substance.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 09:05 GMT
#52
On August 21 2011 18:01 Dali. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 17:56 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:54 Swede wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:45 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:37 Swede wrote:
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defense for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.


Interesting perspective you have there, that in your opinion it was previously OK to commit child abuse if you used reasonable force. I was not aware of this previous law which said that reasonable force was a defense for child abuse. I had thought that child abuse was against the law, but thanks to you I am now informed that previously it was OK to commit child abuse so long as you used reasonable force.


I'm not sure what this post is about. It seems like a really misguided attempt at being an a-hole, but I can't be certain. Clarification?


It would have been better if you were honest and said that the change in social policy was to remove reasonable force as a defence for child discipline/spanking. To label it child abuse is saying any parent who smacked their children previously was 'abusing' them, or 'committing child abuse'. In that case, I could go around telling people that because my mum and dad used to smack me I am a victim of child abuse, and that I was abused as a child. Are you also a victim of child abuse?


Considering the nature of physical discipline - used to show right from wrong for those unable to make rational decisions for themselves - should we strike mentally disabled peoples of all ages to teach them? Assuming they fit into the above criteria?


The question should be asked - can the mentally disabled person learn from being smacked?

If you have a child who runs across the road because he is generally rowdy, and trying to talk rationale and logic into why it is dangerous is not working and he continues to do that - then a smack may work in showing him that doing it is a naughty thing. It is a temporary measure to prevent him from running around on the road until he is mature enough to understand why.

If a mentally disabled person, no matter how you explained it to them, could not understand that concept - perhaps it would be necessary (what's the alternative - to tie them up in a cell)? If smacking them once showed them running across the road with lots of traffic is dangerous and prevents them from doing it, then it is for their benefit.

You are effectively arguing that the parents who smacked their children were doing it because they were committing child abuse. In some cases that was the case, but the way Swede put it - labeling all parents as committing child abuse - is ridiculous.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 09:11:41
August 21 2011 09:05 GMT
#53
On August 21 2011 17:56 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 17:54 Swede wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:45 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:37 Swede wrote:
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defense for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.


Interesting perspective you have there, that in your opinion it was previously OK to commit child abuse if you used reasonable force. I was not aware of this previous law which said that reasonable force was a defense for child abuse. I had thought that child abuse was against the law, but thanks to you I am now informed that previously it was OK to commit child abuse so long as you used reasonable force.


I'm not sure what this post is about. It seems like a really misguided attempt at being an a-hole, but I can't be certain. Clarification?


It would have been better if you were honest and said that the change in social policy was to remove reasonable force as a defence for child discipline/spanking. To label it child abuse is saying any parent who smacked their children previously was 'abusing' them, or 'committing child abuse'. In that case, I could go around telling people that because my mum and dad used to smack me I am a victim of child abuse, and that I was abused as a child. Are you also a victim of child abuse?


No, because the change in social policy wasn't for that purpose. It was changed because people were abusing their children and getting away with it. I'm not talking about people smacking. I'm talking about parents beating their children. I'm not for smacking, but I would certainly never call it child abuse... The fact is that smacking had to be banned in order to remove the ambiguity between these two things (smacking and child abuse). It's no great loss to any decent parent.

My original description was completely accurate.

As a side note, I was smacked as a child and I hold nothing against my parents for disciplining me in that way.

I disagree with Swede's labeling of parents who used to smack their kids as child abusers.


Not what I said at all. It's a shame that your argument relies on misrepresenting peoples' opinions.

If you have a child who runs across the road because he is generally rowdy, and trying to talk rationale and logic into why it is dangerous is not working and he continues to do that - then a smack may work in showing him that doing it is a naughty thing. It is a temporary measure to prevent him from running around on the road until he is mature enough to understand why.


The problem with this argument (which seems to come up so often) is that a smack is not the only alternative to rationale and logic. For example, you could tell your child that he/she will not be allowed out of the house until he/she stops running onto the road. You might not agree with this example (and fair enough, I'm no parent and I just thought of it now), but the point is that there are viable alternatives that are just as effective if not mores so.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 09:10 GMT
#54
On August 21 2011 18:02 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 17:55 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Don't deflect it to the OP, you, personally, were wrong about Harawira. Also, I think the reason you think my attitude is 'ass' is because I am wiping the floor with you and you don't like it. That last part of your response was just garbage rhetoric.


Actually you are not wiping the floor, all you are doing is making ad hominum attacks on the parties you disagree with. The OP (currently banned) stated that what he had written was his opinion and that people were free to disagree. You on the other hand simply come in here attacking John Key as being weak (not giving examples), state that the majority who voted for him resulted in the worst election result as if it were a self-explaining statement of fact as to why it was the worst result, and discard ACT's policies as being bullshit and hardline populist without explaining what the flaws of those policies are. You are the one who is full of garbage rhetoric and you are unable to see that from a different perspective nothing you say is actually explaining everything - rather all you are doing is attacking personalities without providing facts or substance.


The reason I haven't been explaining party policy is because I have been too busy explaining why basically everything you said in response to me has been really bad. Also, it's actually quite hard to write lengthy explanations for why/why I don't support any of 6 parties in my first post, so I wrote general stuff. There's plenty of time before the election to get deeper.
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 09:10 GMT
#55
On August 21 2011 18:05 Swede wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 17:56 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:54 Swede wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:45 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:37 Swede wrote:
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defense for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.


Interesting perspective you have there, that in your opinion it was previously OK to commit child abuse if you used reasonable force. I was not aware of this previous law which said that reasonable force was a defense for child abuse. I had thought that child abuse was against the law, but thanks to you I am now informed that previously it was OK to commit child abuse so long as you used reasonable force.


I'm not sure what this post is about. It seems like a really misguided attempt at being an a-hole, but I can't be certain. Clarification?


It would have been better if you were honest and said that the change in social policy was to remove reasonable force as a defence for child discipline/spanking. To label it child abuse is saying any parent who smacked their children previously was 'abusing' them, or 'committing child abuse'. In that case, I could go around telling people that because my mum and dad used to smack me I am a victim of child abuse, and that I was abused as a child. Are you also a victim of child abuse?


No, because the change in social policy wasn't for that purpose. It was changed because people were abusing their children and getting away with it. I'm not talking about people smacking. I'm talking about parents beating their children. I'm not for smacking, but I would certainly never call it child abuse... The fact is that smacking had to be banned in order to remove the ambiguity between these two things (smacking and child abuse). It's no great loss to any decent parent.

My original description was completely accurate.

As a side note, I was smacked as a child and I hold nothing against my parents for disciplining me in that way.

Show nested quote +
I disagree with Swede's labeling of parents who used to smack their kids as child abusers.


Not what I said at all. It's a shame that your argument relies on misrepresenting peoples' opinions.


It's not a misrepresentation. If you had written that the change in social policy was for the purpose of preventing global warming, that wouldn't change the fact that the effect of the law change was to remove reasonable force as a defence for spanking.

The effect of the law change was to remove reasonable force as a defence for smacking.

Regardless of its purpose, that is its effect.

If you were to give an accurate description of what Sue Bradford accomplished, then that is what you would write.

Instead you encompassed all parents who previously smacked their children as child abusers by saying that it removed the reasonable defence for child abuse.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 09:13 GMT
#56
On August 21 2011 18:10 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:02 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:55 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Don't deflect it to the OP, you, personally, were wrong about Harawira. Also, I think the reason you think my attitude is 'ass' is because I am wiping the floor with you and you don't like it. That last part of your response was just garbage rhetoric.


Actually you are not wiping the floor, all you are doing is making ad hominum attacks on the parties you disagree with. The OP (currently banned) stated that what he had written was his opinion and that people were free to disagree. You on the other hand simply come in here attacking John Key as being weak (not giving examples), state that the majority who voted for him resulted in the worst election result as if it were a self-explaining statement of fact as to why it was the worst result, and discard ACT's policies as being bullshit and hardline populist without explaining what the flaws of those policies are. You are the one who is full of garbage rhetoric and you are unable to see that from a different perspective nothing you say is actually explaining everything - rather all you are doing is attacking personalities without providing facts or substance.


The reason I haven't been explaining party policy is because I have been too busy explaining why basically everything you said in response to me has been really bad. Also, it's actually quite hard to write lengthy explanations for why/why I don't support any of 6 parties in my first post, so I wrote general stuff. There's plenty of time before the election to get deeper.


Before I addressed your post, this is what you wrote:

"The National Party is just Labour but with arrogance and a wimpy leader."

Nothing to back up that statement.

"The Maori party started good, but has lost all its focus and is now just enjoying the perks of government."

Oh OK, we'll just take your word for it then.

"Peter Dunne does fuck all and is only there because of some stupid worm which rose whenever he said "common sense"."

I agree with this part - I have no idea what his party stands for.

"Also I just want to say that choosing John Key over Helen Clark (HELEN CLARK FFS) has got to be one of the worst election results in NZ history."

I was unaware that Helen Clark being better than Key FFS was a self-evident fact. And not just that, it's the worst election result in NZ history... Well, I'd have to say Muldoon winning the election in the 70s was the worst result due to the incredibly way he fucked up the economy back then through price freezes and establishing SOEs but whatever.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 09:19:58
August 21 2011 09:15 GMT
#57
On August 21 2011 18:10 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:05 Swede wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:56 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:54 Swede wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:45 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 17:37 Swede wrote:
I'll probably vote for the Greens based on them being comparatively non-corrupt and their seemingly greater moral integrity. People rule out the Greens because of stereotypes (e.g. they're all hippies and stoners), and yet Gareth Hughes was virtually the only politician with the slightest clue about the recent changes to piracy laws, and Sue Bradford spearheaded one of the most controversial and important changes in social policy in the last few years (removal of reasonable force as a defense for child abuse).

The Greens have their issues, sure, but I feel like they're a lot more focused than National or Labour who's goals basically just seem to be 'do whatever it takes to stay in power'.


Interesting perspective you have there, that in your opinion it was previously OK to commit child abuse if you used reasonable force. I was not aware of this previous law which said that reasonable force was a defense for child abuse. I had thought that child abuse was against the law, but thanks to you I am now informed that previously it was OK to commit child abuse so long as you used reasonable force.


I'm not sure what this post is about. It seems like a really misguided attempt at being an a-hole, but I can't be certain. Clarification?


It would have been better if you were honest and said that the change in social policy was to remove reasonable force as a defence for child discipline/spanking. To label it child abuse is saying any parent who smacked their children previously was 'abusing' them, or 'committing child abuse'. In that case, I could go around telling people that because my mum and dad used to smack me I am a victim of child abuse, and that I was abused as a child. Are you also a victim of child abuse?


No, because the change in social policy wasn't for that purpose. It was changed because people were abusing their children and getting away with it. I'm not talking about people smacking. I'm talking about parents beating their children. I'm not for smacking, but I would certainly never call it child abuse... The fact is that smacking had to be banned in order to remove the ambiguity between these two things (smacking and child abuse). It's no great loss to any decent parent.

My original description was completely accurate.

As a side note, I was smacked as a child and I hold nothing against my parents for disciplining me in that way.

I disagree with Swede's labeling of parents who used to smack their kids as child abusers.


Not what I said at all. It's a shame that your argument relies on misrepresenting peoples' opinions.


It's not a misrepresentation. If you had written that the change in social policy was for the purpose of preventing global warming, that wouldn't change the fact that the effect of the law change was to remove reasonable force as a defence for spanking.

The effect of the law change was to remove reasonable force as a defence for smacking.

Regardless of its purpose, that is its effect.

If you were to give an accurate description of what Sue Bradford accomplished, then that is what you would write.

Instead you encompassed all parents who previously smacked their children as child abusers by saying that it removed the reasonable defence for child abuse.


Your analysis of its effects are incomplete though. It's more like this:

The effect of the law change was to remove reasonable force as a defense for child abuse at the expense of the freedom to smack.

No clear headed person would call that a bad thing. If you are so attached to smacking as a means of discipline that you would have child abusers roam free with no consequences then you are an idiot.

And notice how both of my previous posts have clearly distinguished between smacking and child abuse? I don't consider people who smack to be child abusers.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 09:23 GMT
#58
[QUOTE]On August 21 2011 18:15 Swede wrote:
[quote]The effect of the law change was to remove reasonable force as a defense for child abuse at the expense of the freedom to smack.[/quote]

This is a good summarisation.

[quote]No clear headed person would call that a bad thing. If you are so attached to smacking as a means of discipline that you would have child abusers roam free with no consequences then you are an idiot.
[/QUOTE]

You are the idiot if you think the solution to child abuse is to remove a method of discipline from good parents. It goes far deeper than just smacking. It is the result of family circumstances, poverty, mental illness, stresses in life, etc. This article by Muriel Newman (former ACT MP) explains part of the issues:

[quote]Raising children - using traditional methods of discipline when necessary - has withstood the test of time. There is no evidence to show that such children have grown up to be anything but normal, balanced, healthy, contributing members of society (click here to read a Berkeley University study on this). Whereas hostile youths, who have not been adequately disciplined or socialised, have long been the scourge of any community.

A British study “Broken Homes and Battered Children” by Robert Whelan, carried out in 1994, shed light on the real causes of child abuse. The study found that the incidence of child abuse is 20 times higher for children living with their cohabiting parents and 33 times higher among children living with their mother and her boyfriend compared to children living with their biological, married parents. With child deaths, the situation is even worse children living in households in which the child's biological mother is cohabiting with someone who is unrelated to the child were 73 times more likely to be killed than those living in a traditional, intact, married family.

With child abuse predominantly occurring in single parent families reliant on welfare in New Zealand - Maori children now being the most at-risk group in our society - the Green Party and all of those organisations that claim they want to reduce child abuse, should support a national campaign to reform welfare. The campaign would need to prioritise a reduction in the reliance on the Domestic Purposes Benefit, and it should also promote the traditional married biological family as society's safest child-rearing unit.

Yet, after a decade of calling for welfare reform, I have noticed only limited support for such a campaign from organisations that purport to care. Perhaps those that receive government funding are fearful of speaking out in case their money supply is cut and they are blacklisted, or perhaps it is simply too PC to talk about traditional values any more.[/quote]
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 09:25 GMT
#59
On August 21 2011 18:13 Kiwifruit wrote:
Before I addressed your post, this is what you wrote:

"The National Party is just Labour but with arrogance and a wimpy leader."

Nothing to back up that statement.

"The Maori party started good, but has lost all its focus and is now just enjoying the perks of government."

Oh OK, we'll just take your word for it then.

"Peter Dunne does fuck all and is only there because of some stupid worm which rose whenever he said "common sense"."

I agree with this part - I have no idea what his party stands for.

"Also I just want to say that choosing John Key over Helen Clark (HELEN CLARK FFS) has got to be one of the worst election results in NZ history."

I was unaware that Helen Clark being better than Key FFS was a self-evident fact. And not just that, it's the worst election result in NZ history... Well, I'd have to say Muldoon winning the election in the 70s was the worst result due to the incredibly way he fucked up the economy back then through price freezes and establishing SOEs but whatever.


Those are just my brief summary opinions on the parties. If you disagree with any of that that's fine and I don't mind, but I reserve the right to choose when and where I explain my opinions. I don't demand to know why you think posting a picture of Goff with donkeys is relevant, but I ignore it because it's trivial and not worth discussing, just like my opening remarks.

Also, you lack basic reading comprehension. "One of the worst" does not equal "the worst". I am quite aware of the Muldoon era.
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Mafe
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany5966 Posts
August 21 2011 09:26 GMT
#60
Election during Rugby World Cup? Will anybody care for politics then?
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 09:28 GMT
#61
For context, here is a previous speech by her on welfare reform which proposes ideas:

+ Show Spoiler +
ACT's Welfare Vision: ACT Alternative Budget 2002 Speech by Dr Muriel Newman

Sunday 19 May 2002 Dr Muriel Newman Speeches -- Economy

Speech to launch of ACT Alternative Budget,

9.45am Crowne Plaza Hotel, Auckland, Sunday, May 19, 2002

Richard, Rodney, Ladies and Gentleman.

Today I have real pleasure in sharing with you ACT's vision for welfare, outlining why reform of New Zealand's welfare system is fundamental to creating a prosperous society that is based on individual responsibility.

The reality is that our entrenched Welfare state has now changed so much from that conceived by its creators, that without a completely new welfare philosophy, we simply cannot build a society of strong families, high average incomes, low crime, quality health and education services, that only 40 years ago made us the world's third most prosperous nation.

When the welfare state was created in 1940, we had just experienced a severe depression with real hardship. New Zealanders overwhelmingly voted for a vision of a society based on compassion for those, who for no fault of their own, had no income, no job, and couldn't pay for basic health services.

In 1951, there were 29,601 New Zealanders on benefits. Paying for this were 716,000 full time workers.

There was no long term unemployment, no DPB.

The architects of the Welfare state had made it clear: Welfare was not a lifetime right. Fundamental to its sustainability, was the nation's ability to afford it.

For 20 years, the numbers of working age beneficiaries remained small in relation to the full time work force who were paying for it.

But from 1970, New Zealand began to change, slowly, steadily, and irreversibly, and at such cost to so many.

In swept the Labour Government: the DPB was born, benefit levels were lifted, and new categories of benefit were created. As a result, the numbers of New Zealanders seduced into the low income - `here's money for no work' philosophy - grew and grew.

Until this time, anyone unemployed was known by name by the Labour Department. There were jobs; there simply was no long-term unemployment.

And fathers who deserted their wives and families were chased by the Justice Department, and made to face up to their responsibilities.

Today, there are 400,000 working age adults supported by benefits. Of those, 111,000 have been there for over 5 years, with 56, 000 being on the dole or the DPB.

What have we done to our nation?

In 1970, 36,000 beneficiaries were supported by 1 million full time workers

Only 30 years later, 400,000 beneficiaries are supported by one and a half million full time workers.

Taking a conservative view and leaving out the partners on benefits, the 30-year dependency growth is staggering.

In 1970, there were 28 fulltime workers for each full time benefit.

Today, there are 4 fulltime workers for each full time benefit.

If we look at the bigger picture, paying for 450,000 pensions, and 400,000 benefits - that's 950,000 adults - are one and a half million fulltime workers and 400,000 part timers.

One and a half million fulltime workers to 950,000 on state incomes - that's around two people on a state benefit or pension to every three full time workers. No nation, with this level of state dependency to fund by taxing a small workforce, can grow as fast as, or faster than its competitors.

Of the $40 billion a year spent by this government, $14 billion goes to the welfare department on benefits and pensions.

As a Nation, we simply cannot hope to have the lower tax rates, high educational achievements, leading health services, strong families, and low crime rates, that we aspire to, when our welfare system prevents hundreds of thousands of working age Kiwis from contributing through the workforce.

Of the 400,000 working age beneficiaries dependant on working New Zealanders for their income 270,00 are on an unemployment-related or sole parent benefit. By taking a `soft' approach to welfare - essentially removing the requirement for able-bodied beneficiaries to need to find work - Government forecasts show that all benefits - Unemployment, DPB, Invalid and Sickness Benefits - will continue to rise.

Yet overwhelmingly, research here and overseas shows across all social indicators, that adults and children who are dependent on a benefit in the long term fail to do as well as those who work; and the human cost is considerable.

I recently asked the Minster of Justice how many benefits were suspended or cancelled due to imprisonment. He replied that with regard to a prison population of 6,000 inmates, some 4,600 benefits were suspended due to imprisonment. In other words, out of New Zealand's 2.8 million adult population, 6,000 have committed a crime serious enough to be sentenced to prison, and 60% of those came from the beneficiary population of around 400,000.

These very serious statistics must however, be taken in the context of the fact that the great majority of the people on benefits are good New Zealanders, who want to work, and who are battling hard to raise their children well - often without much help and support.

I've been on a benefit and I can tell you that it is not easy - but then neither is life. Life is tough, and those on these benefits face a harsher day-to-day existence than many.

But not necessarily harsher than many hard working New Zealanders on low incomes, where mum and dad hold down basic jobs and struggle day to day to put food on the table, clothe the kids and pay the bills.

And they have to work so hard to keep their heads above water that I find it difficult to understand how we can accept as a nation, that it is OK that in our country we can have a family working long hours on $20,000 a year, while next door we pay a working age person the same, and ask for nothing in return - nothing.

What sort of nation have we become?

We are born to work. Work is a fundamental part of who we are. Work brings meaning and purpose to our days. Work makes us feel important, needed by our employers and colleagues.

To give people money for nothing - so they can waste their days and their lives - is wrong. It sends a message to working age beneficiaries that society thinks so little of them that as long as they are tossed a pittance they can then be forgotten. Well I say that's not good enough. It's an indignity to hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders and we simply have to do better.

That is why ACT wants to overhaul the welfare system, and we have three major initiatives that will help to do just that.

But I need to state, first and foremost, that in order to turnaround the present and future bleak welfare statistics, it is essential to put in place economic strategies that will lower taxes and cut red tape to create growth of over 4%. Growth is fundamental to creating the real jobs that are necessary to get our nation working.

The first of ACT's Welfare proposals is to introduce maximum life time limits to the DPB and the Unemployment Benefit, of 5 years. This includes a maximum spell of two years for any one continuous period on these benefits.

This policy will be accompanied by guaranteed job placements for those who reach the time limit, with a small discretionary exemption for Regional Commissioners.

Extra childcare subsidies, intense individual placement support, and assistance with relocation expenses will all be available if needed.

Secondly, all Unemployment and Sole Parent Beneficiaries who can work, will be required to participate in individually designed 40 hour a week programmes of work, training or organised job search - activities designed to improve their chances of getting a good job. As well, they will develop the habits, skills and disciplines needed in the workforce. Further, in line with the realities of the workforce, if they don't turn up or don't comply, they will not be paid.

This initiative will initially involve around 200,000 people including 150,000 on the Unemployment Benefit, and 50,000 on the Sole Parent Benefit whose children are of school age. It will fundamentally change the expectations of the welfare system for the able-bodied, re-establishing benefits as temporary financial support that must be earned.

Thirdly, ACT will not pay out the DPB to women who do not name the father of their child. It is extraordinary today that of 110,000 sole parents on the DPB, some 16,000 women say they cannot or will not name the father, particularly in this day and age where paternity testing through DNA hair samples is a simple and inexpensive procedure.

Again, ACT will provide a limited discretionary power with the Chief Executive of the Welfare Department, but we will not accept the increasing numbers of fathers who are either shirking their responsibilities or who are being prevented by the mother from providing fatherly support to their children.

Those, Ladies and Gentlemen are three ACT welfare positions that, hand in hand with lowering taxes and cutting red tape, to attract investment and grow our economy, will re-create welfare in New Zealand as the temporary safety net that its creators intended.

ACT's vision of society and welfare in New Zealand is so different from that of the government. Labour believes that welfare is a life-long right, and their policies are designed to deliver more and more working age New Zealanders onto the benefit system.

ACT believes that the economic and welfare policies, that we are proposing will deliver to New Zealand:

· Over 4% growth creating tens of thousands of real jobs;

· A huge reduction in the numbers of able-bodied working age beneficiaries as people move back into the workforce with the eventual elimination of long term dependency;

· The provision of dignity and organised days for those who still need benefit support.

It is an unashamedly tough-love approach to welfare, helping people to help themselves. We will not cut benefit payment rates, but we will place big expectations on working age beneficiaries who can work to take personal responsibility for their lives, their livelihoods and their future.

This policy will send the clear message that welfare is meant to provide temporary help in times of need; those who deserve help will get it, but in return, they will have the same 40 hour work week as the rest of adult society.

People who are in a position to work will no longer be paid to do nothing, and as a result, tens of thousands of our poorest New Zealanders will regain control of their own future through work and higher incomes.

This strategy will work. It has produced unprecedented results overseas. But be assured, this is a New Zealand policy created for New Zealanders.

ACT's vision of welfare is of a truly compassionate system that gives people a hand up to work, independence and a better future. That is why I am so passionate about ACT.

ACT is the only party that places the future of our poorest, and the children of our poorest, as our highest priority. We are the only party that has the plan to empower all New Zealanders to pursue success in their own way and in so doing help transform this country into one of the most prosperous nations on earth.

Welfare reform is at the heart of that plan and I am privileged to have had the opportunity to present our programme to you here today.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 09:32 GMT
#62
Kiwifruit, are you aware that under police guidelines "Police have discretion not to prosecute where the offence is considered to be so inconsequential that there is no public interest in a prosecution." (http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/3149.html)?

This law has been in place for a number of years now. Can you back up the argument that "good parents" are being prosecuted for the light smacking that you seem so determined to protect with any examples?
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Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 09:39:42
August 21 2011 09:32 GMT
#63
On August 21 2011 18:23 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:15 Swede wrote:
The effect of the law change was to remove reasonable force as a defense for child abuse at the expense of the freedom to smack.


This is a good summarisation.

Show nested quote +
No clear headed person would call that a bad thing. If you are so attached to smacking as a means of discipline that you would have child abusers roam free with no consequences then you are an idiot.


You are the idiot if you think the solution to child abuse is to remove a method of discipline from good parents. It goes far deeper than just smacking. It is the result of family circumstances, poverty, mental illness, stresses in life, etc. This article by Muriel Newman (former ACT MP) explains part of the issues:

Show nested quote +
Raising children - using traditional methods of discipline when necessary - has withstood the test of time....


I'm sorry, but this article actually has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm NOT anti-smacking. Sue Bradford's bill may sacrifice the ability to smack your child, and some people may find that annoying... But who gives a shit if it STOPS CHILDREN BEING ABUSED?! Perhaps in a world where smacking was the only effective way to discipline your child then I would understand, but it absolutely isn't. That point isn't even up for debate.

Sure, maybe a bill that somehow allowed parents to smack while also putting child abusers in jail would have been more ideal in terms of the general population being satisfied... So the politicians sit on their arses for a few more years thinking of a way to circumvent this issue of wanting to catch child abusers while retaining the ability to smack, meanwhile there are children out there who are continuing to be abused every day of their lives with no end in sight all because some ridiculously near-sighted group of retards won't give up their completely non-essential right to smack.

Sounds like a fucking great idea!
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
August 21 2011 09:35 GMT
#64
The previous law was quite adequate and punished child abusers; changing it to include parents who discipline their children is very bad. For one thing, now the real child abusers are hidden among the hordes of good parents being arrested for smacking. Also, the 87.4% vote AGAINST anti-smacking laws showed that the government doesn't care what people think.

The Conservative Party startup looks interesting, but if they don't show any signs of being against abortion then I'll vote for whichever anti-abortion party is biggest. Currently abortion is the biggest crime in NZ, claiming more lives than anything else; once the killing has stopped we can think about economics and discipline.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 09:37 GMT
#65
I'm anti-smacking, just in the same way I wouldn't smack my dog, or my cat.
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Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
August 21 2011 09:38 GMT
#66
On August 21 2011 18:35 zany_001 wrote:
The previous law was quite adequate and punished child abusers; changing it to include parents who discipline their children is very bad. For one thing, now the real child abusers are hidden among the hordes of good parents being arrested for smacking. Also, the 87.4% vote AGAINST anti-smacking laws showed that the government doesn't care what people think.

The Conservative Party startup looks interesting, but if they don't show any signs of being against abortion then I'll vote for whichever anti-abortion party is biggest. Currently abortion is the biggest crime in NZ, claiming more lives than anything else; once the killing has stopped we can think about economics and discipline.


I would like one statistic which demonstrates the number of 'good parents' who have been arrested for smacking. Just one will be fine.

Have fun!
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 09:39 GMT
#67
On August 21 2011 18:32 Swede wrote:
I'm sorry, but this article actually has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm NOT anti-smacking. Sue Bradford's bill may sacrifice the ability to smack your child, and some people may find that annoying... But who gives a shit if it STOPS CHILDREN BEING ABUSED?! Perhaps in a world where smacking was the [i]only]/i] effective way to discipline your child then I would understand, but it absolutely isn't. That point isn't even up for debate.


The point is, it DOESN'T STOP CHILDREN FROM BEING ABUSED. That is what the opponents of the bill advocated. Most on the right consider that the way to prevent child abuse is to reform the welfare system. This is something the Left is strongly against. I refer you to the following:

[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 09:41 GMT
#68
On August 21 2011 18:32 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Kiwifruit, are you aware that under police guidelines "Police have discretion not to prosecute where the offence is considered to be so inconsequential that there is no public interest in a prosecution." (http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/3149.html)?

This law has been in place for a number of years now. Can you back up the argument that "good parents" are being prosecuted for the light smacking that you seem so determined to protect with any examples?


I am aware of this - my argument against the smacking law isn't that good parents would be prosecuted - but rather that, as you would see if you read my posts regarding how welfare reform is the solution etc, that it is not the solution to child abuse and in fact takes away one (of the many) tools a parent can raise and protect their child.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
brendaaan
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand77 Posts
August 21 2011 09:43 GMT
#69
i like Nation with the new benefit scheme... no longer will my hard earned tax dollers be wasted on drugs and alcohol!
Rubrix cube record: 36 seconds :D
Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 09:50:05
August 21 2011 09:47 GMT
#70
On August 21 2011 18:39 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:32 Swede wrote:
I'm sorry, but this article actually has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm NOT anti-smacking. Sue Bradford's bill may sacrifice the ability to smack your child, and some people may find that annoying... But who gives a shit if it STOPS CHILDREN BEING ABUSED?! Perhaps in a world where smacking was the [i]only]/i] effective way to discipline your child then I would understand, but it absolutely isn't. That point isn't even up for debate.


The point is, it DOESN'T STOP CHILDREN FROM BEING ABUSED. That is what the opponents of the bill advocated. Most on the right consider that the way to prevent child abuse is to reform the welfare system. This is something the Left is strongly against. I refer you to the following:
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]


You're right. Children are still be abused. But at least now the child abusers who are being caught are being punished in some form.

It's true that we should be aiming for a society in which child abuse is something which is a lot less common, but that is actually a different issue, despite how it may seem.

The issue Sue Bradford's bill addressed was people abusing their children and getting away with it. The bill was not designed to put an end to all child abuse ever. The reason you're so dissatisfied with the bill is because your expectations are completely unreasonable and unjustified. Nobody ever made this bill out to be anything more than what it has turned out to be.

The issue you are talking about is child abuse in general, ie the fact that it occurs. I am totally in agreeance that we should be taking steps to prevent child abuse before it even happens, but the fact is that, for now, it is happening and before the removal of reasonable force people were getting away with it too.

I just can't fathom how you can disagree with the bill. Anybody who understands it properly agrees with it, and you have demonstrated quite clearly that you don't understand it.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 09:48 GMT
#71
On August 21 2011 18:35 zany_001 wrote:
The previous law was quite adequate and punished child abusers; changing it to include parents who discipline their children is very bad. For one thing, now the real child abusers are hidden among the hordes of good parents being arrested for smacking. Also, the 87.4% vote AGAINST anti-smacking laws showed that the government doesn't care what people think.

The Conservative Party startup looks interesting, but if they don't show any signs of being against abortion then I'll vote for whichever anti-abortion party is biggest. Currently abortion is the biggest crime in NZ, claiming more lives than anything else; once the killing has stopped we can think about economics and discipline.


Wow. Can we get some stats on these "hordes of good parents being arrested for smacking"?

The 87.4% vote was a total farce. The question was "Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?" What if you believed it wasn't possible for a smack to be part of good parental correction? The question relies on a pre-supposition that smacking can be a part of good parental correction.
Also, the law does not in practice make your day-to-day smack a crime. I see parents smack kids all the time in the supermarket. Where are the stats of all these parents getting arrested?

Abortion? What about women, especially young girls that get raped, are you to refuse them an abortion? When does a sperm become a human being? Can I masturbate?
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Goragoth
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
New Zealand1065 Posts
August 21 2011 09:49 GMT
#72
On August 21 2011 18:41 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:32 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Kiwifruit, are you aware that under police guidelines "Police have discretion not to prosecute where the offence is considered to be so inconsequential that there is no public interest in a prosecution." (http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/3149.html)?

This law has been in place for a number of years now. Can you back up the argument that "good parents" are being prosecuted for the light smacking that you seem so determined to protect with any examples?


I am aware of this - my argument against the smacking law isn't that good parents would be prosecuted - but rather that, as you would see if you read my posts regarding how welfare reform is the solution etc, that it is not the solution to child abuse and in fact takes away one (of the many) tools a parent can raise and protect their child.

Do you have any proof, any at all, that the law change has caused innocent (i.e. non-child abusing but just reasonably discipling) parents to be arrested/charged/impacted in any way what so ever? Or is this just pure speculation?

Oh and that ACT article you keep posting sounds like complete BS. I just skimmed over it but it seems to make some horrible conclusions. Confusing correlation and causation all over the place.
Creator of LoLTool.
Dali.
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand689 Posts
August 21 2011 09:50 GMT
#73
On August 21 2011 18:28 Kiwifruit wrote:
For context, here is a previous speech by her on welfare reform which proposes ideas:

+ Show Spoiler +
ACT's Welfare Vision: ACT Alternative Budget 2002 Speech by Dr Muriel Newman

Sunday 19 May 2002 Dr Muriel Newman Speeches -- Economy

Speech to launch of ACT Alternative Budget,

9.45am Crowne Plaza Hotel, Auckland, Sunday, May 19, 2002

Richard, Rodney, Ladies and Gentleman.

Today I have real pleasure in sharing with you ACT's vision for welfare, outlining why reform of New Zealand's welfare system is fundamental to creating a prosperous society that is based on individual responsibility.

The reality is that our entrenched Welfare state has now changed so much from that conceived by its creators, that without a completely new welfare philosophy, we simply cannot build a society of strong families, high average incomes, low crime, quality health and education services, that only 40 years ago made us the world's third most prosperous nation.

When the welfare state was created in 1940, we had just experienced a severe depression with real hardship. New Zealanders overwhelmingly voted for a vision of a society based on compassion for those, who for no fault of their own, had no income, no job, and couldn't pay for basic health services.

In 1951, there were 29,601 New Zealanders on benefits. Paying for this were 716,000 full time workers.

There was no long term unemployment, no DPB.

The architects of the Welfare state had made it clear: Welfare was not a lifetime right. Fundamental to its sustainability, was the nation's ability to afford it.

For 20 years, the numbers of working age beneficiaries remained small in relation to the full time work force who were paying for it.

But from 1970, New Zealand began to change, slowly, steadily, and irreversibly, and at such cost to so many.

In swept the Labour Government: the DPB was born, benefit levels were lifted, and new categories of benefit were created. As a result, the numbers of New Zealanders seduced into the low income - `here's money for no work' philosophy - grew and grew.

Until this time, anyone unemployed was known by name by the Labour Department. There were jobs; there simply was no long-term unemployment.

And fathers who deserted their wives and families were chased by the Justice Department, and made to face up to their responsibilities.

Today, there are 400,000 working age adults supported by benefits. Of those, 111,000 have been there for over 5 years, with 56, 000 being on the dole or the DPB.

What have we done to our nation?

In 1970, 36,000 beneficiaries were supported by 1 million full time workers

Only 30 years later, 400,000 beneficiaries are supported by one and a half million full time workers.

Taking a conservative view and leaving out the partners on benefits, the 30-year dependency growth is staggering.

In 1970, there were 28 fulltime workers for each full time benefit.

Today, there are 4 fulltime workers for each full time benefit.

If we look at the bigger picture, paying for 450,000 pensions, and 400,000 benefits - that's 950,000 adults - are one and a half million fulltime workers and 400,000 part timers.

One and a half million fulltime workers to 950,000 on state incomes - that's around two people on a state benefit or pension to every three full time workers. No nation, with this level of state dependency to fund by taxing a small workforce, can grow as fast as, or faster than its competitors.

Of the $40 billion a year spent by this government, $14 billion goes to the welfare department on benefits and pensions.

As a Nation, we simply cannot hope to have the lower tax rates, high educational achievements, leading health services, strong families, and low crime rates, that we aspire to, when our welfare system prevents hundreds of thousands of working age Kiwis from contributing through the workforce.

Of the 400,000 working age beneficiaries dependant on working New Zealanders for their income 270,00 are on an unemployment-related or sole parent benefit. By taking a `soft' approach to welfare - essentially removing the requirement for able-bodied beneficiaries to need to find work - Government forecasts show that all benefits - Unemployment, DPB, Invalid and Sickness Benefits - will continue to rise.

Yet overwhelmingly, research here and overseas shows across all social indicators, that adults and children who are dependent on a benefit in the long term fail to do as well as those who work; and the human cost is considerable.

I recently asked the Minster of Justice how many benefits were suspended or cancelled due to imprisonment. He replied that with regard to a prison population of 6,000 inmates, some 4,600 benefits were suspended due to imprisonment. In other words, out of New Zealand's 2.8 million adult population, 6,000 have committed a crime serious enough to be sentenced to prison, and 60% of those came from the beneficiary population of around 400,000.

These very serious statistics must however, be taken in the context of the fact that the great majority of the people on benefits are good New Zealanders, who want to work, and who are battling hard to raise their children well - often without much help and support.

I've been on a benefit and I can tell you that it is not easy - but then neither is life. Life is tough, and those on these benefits face a harsher day-to-day existence than many.

But not necessarily harsher than many hard working New Zealanders on low incomes, where mum and dad hold down basic jobs and struggle day to day to put food on the table, clothe the kids and pay the bills.

And they have to work so hard to keep their heads above water that I find it difficult to understand how we can accept as a nation, that it is OK that in our country we can have a family working long hours on $20,000 a year, while next door we pay a working age person the same, and ask for nothing in return - nothing.

What sort of nation have we become?

We are born to work. Work is a fundamental part of who we are. Work brings meaning and purpose to our days. Work makes us feel important, needed by our employers and colleagues.

To give people money for nothing - so they can waste their days and their lives - is wrong. It sends a message to working age beneficiaries that society thinks so little of them that as long as they are tossed a pittance they can then be forgotten. Well I say that's not good enough. It's an indignity to hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders and we simply have to do better.

That is why ACT wants to overhaul the welfare system, and we have three major initiatives that will help to do just that.

But I need to state, first and foremost, that in order to turnaround the present and future bleak welfare statistics, it is essential to put in place economic strategies that will lower taxes and cut red tape to create growth of over 4%. Growth is fundamental to creating the real jobs that are necessary to get our nation working.

The first of ACT's Welfare proposals is to introduce maximum life time limits to the DPB and the Unemployment Benefit, of 5 years. This includes a maximum spell of two years for any one continuous period on these benefits.

This policy will be accompanied by guaranteed job placements for those who reach the time limit, with a small discretionary exemption for Regional Commissioners.

Extra childcare subsidies, intense individual placement support, and assistance with relocation expenses will all be available if needed.

Secondly, all Unemployment and Sole Parent Beneficiaries who can work, will be required to participate in individually designed 40 hour a week programmes of work, training or organised job search - activities designed to improve their chances of getting a good job. As well, they will develop the habits, skills and disciplines needed in the workforce. Further, in line with the realities of the workforce, if they don't turn up or don't comply, they will not be paid.

This initiative will initially involve around 200,000 people including 150,000 on the Unemployment Benefit, and 50,000 on the Sole Parent Benefit whose children are of school age. It will fundamentally change the expectations of the welfare system for the able-bodied, re-establishing benefits as temporary financial support that must be earned.

Thirdly, ACT will not pay out the DPB to women who do not name the father of their child. It is extraordinary today that of 110,000 sole parents on the DPB, some 16,000 women say they cannot or will not name the father, particularly in this day and age where paternity testing through DNA hair samples is a simple and inexpensive procedure.

Again, ACT will provide a limited discretionary power with the Chief Executive of the Welfare Department, but we will not accept the increasing numbers of fathers who are either shirking their responsibilities or who are being prevented by the mother from providing fatherly support to their children.

Those, Ladies and Gentlemen are three ACT welfare positions that, hand in hand with lowering taxes and cutting red tape, to attract investment and grow our economy, will re-create welfare in New Zealand as the temporary safety net that its creators intended.

ACT's vision of society and welfare in New Zealand is so different from that of the government. Labour believes that welfare is a life-long right, and their policies are designed to deliver more and more working age New Zealanders onto the benefit system.

ACT believes that the economic and welfare policies, that we are proposing will deliver to New Zealand:

· Over 4% growth creating tens of thousands of real jobs;

· A huge reduction in the numbers of able-bodied working age beneficiaries as people move back into the workforce with the eventual elimination of long term dependency;

· The provision of dignity and organised days for those who still need benefit support.

It is an unashamedly tough-love approach to welfare, helping people to help themselves. We will not cut benefit payment rates, but we will place big expectations on working age beneficiaries who can work to take personal responsibility for their lives, their livelihoods and their future.

This policy will send the clear message that welfare is meant to provide temporary help in times of need; those who deserve help will get it, but in return, they will have the same 40 hour work week as the rest of adult society.

People who are in a position to work will no longer be paid to do nothing, and as a result, tens of thousands of our poorest New Zealanders will regain control of their own future through work and higher incomes.

This strategy will work. It has produced unprecedented results overseas. But be assured, this is a New Zealand policy created for New Zealanders.

ACT's vision of welfare is of a truly compassionate system that gives people a hand up to work, independence and a better future. That is why I am so passionate about ACT.

ACT is the only party that places the future of our poorest, and the children of our poorest, as our highest priority. We are the only party that has the plan to empower all New Zealanders to pursue success in their own way and in so doing help transform this country into one of the most prosperous nations on earth.

Welfare reform is at the heart of that plan and I am privileged to have had the opportunity to present our programme to you here today.


Why is she demonizing benefit receivers? Surely its only those who CAN work but refuse/find loopholes which we should be especially concerned about.

Most benefits do good in my eyes: http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/individuals/a-z-benefits/index.html

The main abuse comes from the unemployment benefit doesn't it? And according to Work and Income that only accounts for around 60,000 concurrent persons.
Source: http://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/newsroom/factsheets/future-focus/unemployment-benefit.html
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
August 21 2011 09:53 GMT
#74
On August 21 2011 18:38 Swede wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:35 zany_001 wrote:
The previous law was quite adequate and punished child abusers; changing it to include parents who discipline their children is very bad. For one thing, now the real child abusers are hidden among the hordes of good parents being arrested for smacking. Also, the 87.4% vote AGAINST anti-smacking laws showed that the government doesn't care what people think.

The Conservative Party startup looks interesting, but if they don't show any signs of being against abortion then I'll vote for whichever anti-abortion party is biggest. Currently abortion is the biggest crime in NZ, claiming more lives than anything else; once the killing has stopped we can think about economics and discipline.


I would like one statistic which demonstrates the number of 'good parents' who have been arrested for smacking. Just one will be fine.

Have fun!

Bah, NZ police statistics don't distinguish between assault and child abuse.

All I can say is that because it is easier for parents who smack their kids to be arrested, it is logical that more of them are arrested; numbers of parents who genuinely abuse their kids logically would not have gone down as under the previous law they could also be arrested. Therefore it is LIKELY that there are more parents being arrested for supposed child abuse, which then hides the real abusers.

Case in point being a court case my father was called up for jury duty for. A woman had supposedly violently hit her child while at a party (he was misbehaving). One of the witnesses was asked to rank the smacking on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being extreme abuse. He immediately said "10, 10." He was then asked what the child's response was. He said the child just laughed. (my father had to struggle not to laugh at hearing this ) Under the previous law the case would have then be cut and dried; obviously the child was not being abused. But under the new law it was much more debatable, and there was almost a hung jury over the matter. Happily the jury decided the woman was innocent.
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CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 09:55 GMT
#75
On August 21 2011 18:41 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:32 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Kiwifruit, are you aware that under police guidelines "Police have discretion not to prosecute where the offence is considered to be so inconsequential that there is no public interest in a prosecution." (http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/3149.html)?

This law has been in place for a number of years now. Can you back up the argument that "good parents" are being prosecuted for the light smacking that you seem so determined to protect with any examples?


I am aware of this - my argument against the smacking law isn't that good parents would be prosecuted - but rather that, as you would see if you read my posts regarding how welfare reform is the solution etc, that it is not the solution to child abuse and in fact takes away one (of the many) tools a parent can raise and protect their child.


I'm not sure whether I should be reading your posts or the 15 page ACT party articles you are posting. Here's a tip: actually read the articles yourself, then use the arguments or facts within in a way that people can easily digest them, and post a link to the source.

The Bill was never intended to be a "solution to child abuse". Are you actually that stupid, after all this, to be saying that?
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Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
August 21 2011 10:01 GMT
#76
On August 21 2011 18:48 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:35 zany_001 wrote:
The previous law was quite adequate and punished child abusers; changing it to include parents who discipline their children is very bad. For one thing, now the real child abusers are hidden among the hordes of good parents being arrested for smacking. Also, the 87.4% vote AGAINST anti-smacking laws showed that the government doesn't care what people think.

The Conservative Party startup looks interesting, but if they don't show any signs of being against abortion then I'll vote for whichever anti-abortion party is biggest. Currently abortion is the biggest crime in NZ, claiming more lives than anything else; once the killing has stopped we can think about economics and discipline.


Wow. Can we get some stats on these "hordes of good parents being arrested for smacking"?

See my previous post to this one.


The 87.4% vote was a total farce. The question was "Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?" What if you believed it wasn't possible for a smack to be part of good parental correction? The question relies on a pre-supposition that smacking can be a part of good parental correction.
Also, the law does not in practice make your day-to-day smack a crime. I see parents smack kids all the time in the supermarket. Where are the stats of all these parents getting arrested?

Don't be silly, the question is clearly phrased so that abusers can't simply say they were smacking their child. Abuse is not good parenting by any standards.
The point is that under the law those parents SHOULD be arrested; because nearly 90% of kiwis disagree with the law in this case, they just ignore it.

Abortion? What about women, especially young girls that get raped, are you to refuse them an abortion? When does a sperm become a human being? Can I masturbate?

1: it isn't the child's fault that their mother was raped; why punish a child for their mother's rapist's crime?
2: After entering an egg, you mean? I don't know. Nobody knows. If you see a person lying on the ground you wouldn't bury them without knowing if they're alive or dead; you also shouldn't kill a baby before knowing whether it's human or not.
3: go for it.
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Goragoth
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
New Zealand1065 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 10:10:43
August 21 2011 10:10 GMT
#77
On August 21 2011 19:01 zany_001 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:48 CaptainCharisma wrote:
On August 21 2011 18:35 zany_001 wrote:
The previous law was quite adequate and punished child abusers; changing it to include parents who discipline their children is very bad. For one thing, now the real child abusers are hidden among the hordes of good parents being arrested for smacking. Also, the 87.4% vote AGAINST anti-smacking laws showed that the government doesn't care what people think.

The Conservative Party startup looks interesting, but if they don't show any signs of being against abortion then I'll vote for whichever anti-abortion party is biggest. Currently abortion is the biggest crime in NZ, claiming more lives than anything else; once the killing has stopped we can think about economics and discipline.


Wow. Can we get some stats on these "hordes of good parents being arrested for smacking"?

See my previous post to this one.

Show nested quote +

The 87.4% vote was a total farce. The question was "Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?" What if you believed it wasn't possible for a smack to be part of good parental correction? The question relies on a pre-supposition that smacking can be a part of good parental correction.
Also, the law does not in practice make your day-to-day smack a crime. I see parents smack kids all the time in the supermarket. Where are the stats of all these parents getting arrested?

Don't be silly, the question is clearly phrased so that abusers can't simply say they were smacking their child. Abuse is not good parenting by any standards.
The point is that under the law those parents SHOULD be arrested; because nearly 90% of kiwis disagree with the law in this case, they just ignore it.
Show nested quote +

Abortion? What about women, especially young girls that get raped, are you to refuse them an abortion? When does a sperm become a human being? Can I masturbate?

1: it isn't the child's fault that their mother was raped; why punish a child for their mother's rapist's crime?
2: After entering an egg, you mean? I don't know. Nobody knows. If you see a person lying on the ground you wouldn't bury them without knowing if they're alive or dead; you also shouldn't kill a baby before knowing whether it's human or not.
3: go for it.

Except there is scientific distinction between a fertilized egg and an actual baby (human being). Nothing wrong with abortion as long as it is only done in early stages of pregnancy or if the mother's life is in danger. Pretty simple.
Creator of LoLTool.
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
August 21 2011 10:12 GMT
#78
What is this scientific distinction? How does science know when a baby is not a baby? I don't see how it is possible to scientifically measure humanity.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Goragoth
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
New Zealand1065 Posts
August 21 2011 10:15 GMT
#79
On August 21 2011 19:12 zany_001 wrote:
What is this scientific distinction? How does science know when a baby is not a baby? I don't see how it is possible to scientifically measure humanity.

Sure you can, how else would you do it?
Creator of LoLTool.
Dali.
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand689 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 10:18:06
August 21 2011 10:16 GMT
#80
On August 21 2011 19:01 zany_001 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:48 CaptainCharisma wrote:
On August 21 2011 18:35 zany_001 wrote:
The previous law was quite adequate and punished child abusers; changing it to include parents who discipline their children is very bad. For one thing, now the real child abusers are hidden among the hordes of good parents being arrested for smacking. Also, the 87.4% vote AGAINST anti-smacking laws showed that the government doesn't care what people think.

The Conservative Party startup looks interesting, but if they don't show any signs of being against abortion then I'll vote for whichever anti-abortion party is biggest. Currently abortion is the biggest crime in NZ, claiming more lives than anything else; once the killing has stopped we can think about economics and discipline.


Wow. Can we get some stats on these "hordes of good parents being arrested for smacking"?

See my previous post to this one.

Show nested quote +

The 87.4% vote was a total farce. The question was "Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?" What if you believed it wasn't possible for a smack to be part of good parental correction? The question relies on a pre-supposition that smacking can be a part of good parental correction.
Also, the law does not in practice make your day-to-day smack a crime. I see parents smack kids all the time in the supermarket. Where are the stats of all these parents getting arrested?

Don't be silly, the question is clearly phrased so that abusers can't simply say they were smacking their child. Abuse is not good parenting by any standards.
The point is that under the law those parents SHOULD be arrested; because nearly 90% of kiwis disagree with the law in this case, they just ignore it.
Show nested quote +

Abortion? What about women, especially young girls that get raped, are you to refuse them an abortion? When does a sperm become a human being? Can I masturbate?

1: it isn't the child's fault that their mother was raped; why punish a child for their mother's rapist's crime?
2: After entering an egg, you mean? I don't know. Nobody knows. If you see a person lying on the ground you wouldn't bury them without knowing if they're alive or dead; you also shouldn't kill a baby before knowing whether it's human or not.
3: go for it.


Do you believe in saving fetuses because human life is somehow special or that suffering of all forms should be reduced or another reason?

Abortion is awesome. More abortion. We're an overcrowded planet as is. That's my honest opinion.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 10:18 GMT
#81
On August 21 2011 18:53 zany_001 wrote:
numbers of parents who genuinely abuse their kids logically would not have gone down as under the previous law they could also be arrested.


The entire point of the anti-smacking legislation was that genuine child abusers could use the old loophole to avoid being arrested. You are showing a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire issue.


Don't be silly, the question is clearly phrased so that abusers can't simply say they were smacking their child. Abuse is not good parenting by any standards.


It's not being silly. How should I answer the question when I do not believe smacking can be a part of 'good parenting'? There is no such thing as a smack as part of good parental correction in my opinion. I voted yes, because I'm smart and knew a yes vote was in support of the Bill, but the average disinterested NZer would just look at the question and tick no because they support 'good parenting', without necessarily opposing the Bill. No wonder the figure is so massively inflated.


it isn't the child's fault that their mother was raped; why punish a child for their mother's rapist's crime?


First of all 'punish' is a loaded word. It's pretty much a harmless process. Sure, it 'deprives life', but so does every second of every day that people are not having sex. Secondly, why further punish a rape-victim mother by making her go through the child-birth process; all the physical and psychological stress that would entail?
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Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 10:19 GMT
#82
On August 21 2011 19:16 Dali. wrote:
Abortion is awesome. More abortion. We're an overcrowded planet as is. That's my honest opinion.


Watch this video and think about what you've just said:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9jttr_this-is-abortion_webcam

For the record, I am pro-choice for early term abortions.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
August 21 2011 10:20 GMT
#83
On August 21 2011 19:15 Goragoth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 19:12 zany_001 wrote:
What is this scientific distinction? How does science know when a baby is not a baby? I don't see how it is possible to scientifically measure humanity.

Sure you can, how else would you do it?

How? How does science measure humanity? Enlighten me please.

Dali. let's go ahead and kill all unemployed too, they're a weight on society. How about all criminals too? And if someone disagrees with you, kill them too. That'd cut down on overpopulation.

Although let's not get into whether or not the earth is overpopulated or not, that's yet another can o worms.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
August 21 2011 10:20 GMT
#84
The point is that under the law those parents SHOULD be arrested; because nearly 90% of kiwis disagree with the law in this case, they just ignore it.


Actually, 90% of NZers disagree with 'a smack as a part of good parental correction being a criminal offense'. Which, like CaptainCharisma already mentioned, is a total farce. Which is the reason the politicians ignored the referendum. John Key himself said that the referendum was completely pointless due to the phrasing of that question.

If you don't understand why it's stupid, tell me a situation in which something good should be considered bad. It's an impossible task. If there's a situation in which it's considered bad, then it isn't good anyway and so you haven't fulfilled my request. Something good can't be bad, and good things shouldn't be criminal offenses.

Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 10:21 GMT
#85
On August 21 2011 18:47 Swede wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:39 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 18:32 Swede wrote:
I'm sorry, but this article actually has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm NOT anti-smacking. Sue Bradford's bill may sacrifice the ability to smack your child, and some people may find that annoying... But who gives a shit if it STOPS CHILDREN BEING ABUSED?! Perhaps in a world where smacking was the [i]only]/i] effective way to discipline your child then I would understand, but it absolutely isn't. That point isn't even up for debate.


The point is, it DOESN'T STOP CHILDREN FROM BEING ABUSED. That is what the opponents of the bill advocated. Most on the right consider that the way to prevent child abuse is to reform the welfare system. This is something the Left is strongly against. I refer you to the following:
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]


You're right. Children are still be abused. But at least now the child abusers who are being caught are being punished in some form.

It's true that we should be aiming for a society in which child abuse is something which is a lot less common, but that is actually a different issue, despite how it may seem.

The issue Sue Bradford's bill addressed was people abusing their children and getting away with it. The bill was not designed to put an end to all child abuse ever. The reason you're so dissatisfied with the bill is because your expectations are completely unreasonable and unjustified. Nobody ever made this bill out to be anything more than what it has turned out to be.

The issue you are talking about is child abuse in general, ie the fact that it occurs. I am totally in agreeance that we should be taking steps to prevent child abuse before it even happens, but the fact is that, for now, it is happening and before the removal of reasonable force people were getting away with it too.

I just can't fathom how you can disagree with the bill. Anybody who understands it properly agrees with it, and you have demonstrated quite clearly that you don't understand it.


I disagree with it because it is the equivalent of banning video games to prevent violence at school. Smacking is one of the many tools a parent can use to discipline their children, and there are textbooks from child psychologists showing that for some children it is necessary and that the alternatives (e.g. Ritalin) are not appropriate.

I agree that child abuse is an issue - but what is needed is to lift people out of poverty, as poverty is strongly linked to children being raised in abusive families. Not a change in the smacking law.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
August 21 2011 10:22 GMT
#86
This is going to be one of the most one sided elections ever. People don't want to put Phil Goff in charge, and Labour know that and will blame the entire loss on him and rebuild towards 2014. The only interesting questions this time around are:
a) Will minority parties or national benefit most from labours decline (looks like national is winning in this regard)
b) Will national get enough to govern alone (looking increasingly likely)

Here's hoping Banks doesn't win epson, and ACT is kicked out of parliament. No Rodney no fun imo.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
August 21 2011 10:25 GMT
#87
I doubt most NZers cared too much about the fine distinction of the wording of the referendum; everyone knew about the new law being put in place and 90% of people were against it.
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Haze.884
Profile Joined July 2011
New Zealand192 Posts
August 21 2011 10:26 GMT
#88
People don't want to put Phil Goff in charge


Its so true that its sad for a Labour supporter..
a
Dali.
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand689 Posts
August 21 2011 10:28 GMT
#89
On August 21 2011 19:19 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 19:16 Dali. wrote:
Abortion is awesome. More abortion. We're an overcrowded planet as is. That's my honest opinion.


Watch this video and think about what you've just said:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9jttr_this-is-abortion_webcam

For the record, I am pro-choice for early term abortions.


I maintain my position absolutely. I wouldn't say it to a woman's face, or most people for that matter.

I find it about as disturbing as the meat industry, yet less immoral. As far as my understanding goes, a fetus might feel a flash of pain, but nothing more. And it would a pain unlike ours, considering their extremely underdeveloped brain. Perhaps the same kind of pain a spider feels when it is crushed.

I feel sadder watching a fully grown cow or pig be slaughtered, since I believe they hold more emotional traits to us than a fetus.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 10:32 GMT
#90
On August 21 2011 19:25 zany_001 wrote:
I doubt most NZers cared too much about the fine distinction of the wording of the referendum; everyone knew about the new law being put in place and 90% of people were against it.



They didn't care, that's the problem. If they did, you wouldn't have gotten the result you like to throw around in support of your opposition to the anti-smacking law.

What everyone knew about was the media frenzy, which led a lot of people to believe that "good parents" would be arrested. OF COURSE people would vote against that, but that isn't happening!
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Dali.
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand689 Posts
August 21 2011 10:35 GMT
#91
On August 21 2011 19:20 zany_001 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 19:15 Goragoth wrote:
On August 21 2011 19:12 zany_001 wrote:
What is this scientific distinction? How does science know when a baby is not a baby? I don't see how it is possible to scientifically measure humanity.

Sure you can, how else would you do it?

How? How does science measure humanity? Enlighten me please.

Dali. let's go ahead and kill all unemployed too, they're a weight on society. How about all criminals too? And if someone disagrees with you, kill them too. That'd cut down on overpopulation.

Although let's not get into whether or not the earth is overpopulated or not, that's yet another can o worms.


Unemployed people are conscious, intelligent beings capable of distress and suffering. A fetus has no mental concept of pain until the third trimester apparently. It simply outputs pain reception, in the same manner any insect would.
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
August 21 2011 10:37 GMT
#92
The only reason it didn't happen as much as was thought (and it did happen, although not much) was because the police were given control over who they prosecuted. I mean, that isn't supposed to be the police's job, they're supposed to arrest or fine people breaking the law and smacking for correction is breaking the law; the courts are supposed to decide whether they should be fined/imprisoned or not. Happily most cops are sensible enough to not bother arresting those parents committing illegal acts of correction; the point is that the law is wrong and the law should also not tell the police they canchoose what is right or wrong.
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CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 10:37 GMT
#93
On August 21 2011 19:28 Dali. wrote:

I feel sadder watching a fully grown cow or pig be slaughtered, since I believe they hold more emotional traits to us than a fetus.


Absolutely. Can anyone defend the killing of cows or pigs whilst maintaining that abortion hurts fetuses too much for it to be a worthwhile practice for the other parties involved (e.g. the mother, her family).

On another note, just think. I wonder what it would be like to find out you are the product of violent rape? I bet there are some pretty messed up people out there in that position.
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
August 21 2011 10:38 GMT
#94
On August 21 2011 19:35 Dali. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 19:20 zany_001 wrote:
On August 21 2011 19:15 Goragoth wrote:
On August 21 2011 19:12 zany_001 wrote:
What is this scientific distinction? How does science know when a baby is not a baby? I don't see how it is possible to scientifically measure humanity.

Sure you can, how else would you do it?

How? How does science measure humanity? Enlighten me please.

Dali. let's go ahead and kill all unemployed too, they're a weight on society. How about all criminals too? And if someone disagrees with you, kill them too. That'd cut down on overpopulation.

Although let's not get into whether or not the earth is overpopulated or not, that's yet another can o worms.


Unemployed people are conscious, intelligent beings capable of distress and suffering. A fetus has no mental concept of pain until the third trimester apparently. It simply outputs pain reception, in the same manner any insect would.

What has pain got to do with anything? We'll just anaesthize the unemployed before killing them; then there's no pain.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Goragoth
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
New Zealand1065 Posts
August 21 2011 10:38 GMT
#95
On August 21 2011 19:19 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 19:16 Dali. wrote:
Abortion is awesome. More abortion. We're an overcrowded planet as is. That's my honest opinion.


Watch this video and think about what you've just said:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9jttr_this-is-abortion_webcam

For the record, I am pro-choice for early term abortions.

Not sure what throwing a video up is meant to accomplish. That's just making an argument by appealing to emotion. When it comes to political decisions emotion should have nothing to with it (it often does, which is a large reason for many of the stupider laws we have, but it shouldn't).
Creator of LoLTool.
Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
August 21 2011 10:38 GMT
#96
On August 21 2011 19:21 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 18:47 Swede wrote:
On August 21 2011 18:39 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 18:32 Swede wrote:
I'm sorry, but this article actually has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm NOT anti-smacking. Sue Bradford's bill may sacrifice the ability to smack your child, and some people may find that annoying... But who gives a shit if it STOPS CHILDREN BEING ABUSED?! Perhaps in a world where smacking was the [i]only]/i] effective way to discipline your child then I would understand, but it absolutely isn't. That point isn't even up for debate.


The point is, it DOESN'T STOP CHILDREN FROM BEING ABUSED. That is what the opponents of the bill advocated. Most on the right consider that the way to prevent child abuse is to reform the welfare system. This is something the Left is strongly against. I refer you to the following:
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]


You're right. Children are still be abused. But at least now the child abusers who are being caught are being punished in some form.

It's true that we should be aiming for a society in which child abuse is something which is a lot less common, but that is actually a different issue, despite how it may seem.

The issue Sue Bradford's bill addressed was people abusing their children and getting away with it. The bill was not designed to put an end to all child abuse ever. The reason you're so dissatisfied with the bill is because your expectations are completely unreasonable and unjustified. Nobody ever made this bill out to be anything more than what it has turned out to be.

The issue you are talking about is child abuse in general, ie the fact that it occurs. I am totally in agreeance that we should be taking steps to prevent child abuse before it even happens, but the fact is that, for now, it is happening and before the removal of reasonable force people were getting away with it too.

I just can't fathom how you can disagree with the bill. Anybody who understands it properly agrees with it, and you have demonstrated quite clearly that you don't understand it.


I disagree with it because it is the equivalent of banning video games to prevent violence at school. Smacking is one of the many tools a parent can use to discipline their children, and there are textbooks from child psychologists showing that for some children it is necessary and that the alternatives (e.g. Ritalin) are not appropriate.

I agree that child abuse is an issue - but what is needed is to lift people out of poverty, as poverty is strongly linked to children being raised in abusive families. Not a change in the smacking law.


I have never seen a peer reviewed study demonstrating the usefulness of smacking over other forms of discipline. Show me.

I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree though. This isn't going anywhere.
lothar10
Profile Joined June 2011
New Zealand9 Posts
August 21 2011 10:39 GMT
#97
Numbers out today look even worse for Goff, down 7% and it seems people running to Greens and possible Maori Party, although it's only 1000 people with a sampling error of 3%.

Either way, it seems no one wants him as Prime Minister.
Personally hoping the is no outright National victory, 3 years of compromise could be scary
I could eat a knob at night
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 10:40:44
August 21 2011 10:40 GMT
#98
On August 21 2011 19:37 zany_001 wrote:
The only reason it didn't happen as much as was thought (and it did happen, although not much) was because the police were given control over who they prosecuted. I mean, that isn't supposed to be the police's job, they're supposed to arrest or fine people breaking the law and smacking for correction is breaking the law; the courts are supposed to decide whether they should be fined/imprisoned or not. Happily most cops are sensible enough to not bother arresting those parents committing illegal acts of correction; the point is that the law is wrong and the law should also not tell the police they canchoose what is right or wrong.



Police are given discretion in a wide variety of areas. Sure, what you have pointed out is an ideal and I agree with it, but it is simply not practical. Discretion is an absolutely vital part of any functional justice system.
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CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 10:44 GMT
#99
I would like to bring up the ridiculousness of the 2008 National party platform. They basically said please vote us in, and we won't do some of the things we actually believe in (selling off SOEs for example). What kind of party does this? How can they maintain credibility while doing this? It just boggles my mind.
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Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
August 21 2011 10:46 GMT
#100
On August 21 2011 19:38 Swede wrote:


I have never seen a peer reviewed study demonstrating the usefulness of smacking over other forms of discipline. Show me.

I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree though. This isn't going anywhere.

What, like http://nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.php?c_id=1&objectid=10404809 ?
"Study members in the 'smacking only' category of punishment appeared to be particularly high-functioning and achieving members of society," she said."
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 10:49 GMT
#101
Link doesn't work.

And what?! People were in a "smacking only" category? So I am to believe the only form of parenting these people got was smacking? Give us a break.
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Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
August 21 2011 10:49 GMT
#102
On August 21 2011 19:46 zany_001 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 19:38 Swede wrote:


I have never seen a peer reviewed study demonstrating the usefulness of smacking over other forms of discipline. Show me.

I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree though. This isn't going anywhere.

What, like http://nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.php?c_id=1&objectid=10404809 ?
"Study members in the 'smacking only' category of punishment appeared to be particularly high-functioning and achieving members of society," she said."


Broken link.
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
August 21 2011 10:51 GMT
#103
Sorry, try http://mobile.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.php?c_id=1&objectid=10404809
Am on an ipod at the moment D:
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 11:00:19
August 21 2011 10:54 GMT
#104
Okay, I just read the first line, and in the context of this argument, found it hilarious:

"Groundbreaking New Zealand research has refuted thousands of international studies which claim that smacking children makes them more likely to become aggressive and antisocial."

Emphasis added...

Edit: also: "She and colleague Judy Martin have made a written submission to Parliament suggesting that section 59 should be retained but amended to allow smacking with an open hand, but not hitting with a closed fist or certain objects."

I doubt I have to point this out, but kids can get hurt by an open-hand smack. I could smack someone harder with an open hand, and then softer with a newspaper. Maybe the reporter got it wrong because I cannot fathom how a professor could submit this.
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
Pwnographics
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand1097 Posts
August 21 2011 10:55 GMT
#105
National, but some things of their policies are questionable.

i.e The anti-piracy law and the must present doctor certificate for 1 day of sickness. Otherwise all for National.
Dali.
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand689 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 11:02:00
August 21 2011 11:00 GMT
#106
On August 21 2011 19:38 zany_001 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 19:35 Dali. wrote:
On August 21 2011 19:20 zany_001 wrote:
On August 21 2011 19:15 Goragoth wrote:
On August 21 2011 19:12 zany_001 wrote:
What is this scientific distinction? How does science know when a baby is not a baby? I don't see how it is possible to scientifically measure humanity.

Sure you can, how else would you do it?

How? How does science measure humanity? Enlighten me please.

Dali. let's go ahead and kill all unemployed too, they're a weight on society. How about all criminals too? And if someone disagrees with you, kill them too. That'd cut down on overpopulation.

Although let's not get into whether or not the earth is overpopulated or not, that's yet another can o worms.


Unemployed people are conscious, intelligent beings capable of distress and suffering. A fetus has no mental concept of pain until the third trimester apparently. It simply outputs pain reception, in the same manner any insect would.

What has pain got to do with anything? We'll just anaesthize the unemployed before killing them; then there's no pain.


Hmmm, that's a reasonable point. I'll take a different angle then. Society endows rational (human) agents with a set of rights. We don't endow non-human or non-rational entities the same level of rights. A fetus is not truly human in the same way a brain dead person isn't truly human, at least in the eyes of society/law. The fetus simply has the potential to be human, that potential however is reliant on an actual human nurturing it. Since a mother (ie uterus) is of utmost necessity for the fetus to exist I feel it is her decision whether she chooses to harbor the parasitic life form inside of her or not. You may want to say that a baby (ie post birth) is non-rational and in some ways non-human (dependence/no autonomy) and then I should be willing to accept its destruction. However a baby is not physically reliant on the mother, as any adult can fill the role of nurturer, and is also more and more acutely aware of pain.

As you said before, it is very difficult to appeal to the time when something is human. But I think the difficulty can be avoided by consideration of other factors.
Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
August 21 2011 11:03 GMT
#107
On August 21 2011 19:51 zany_001 wrote:
Sorry, try http://mobile.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.php?c_id=1&objectid=10404809
Am on an ipod at the moment D:


Doesn't really say a lot. The part you quoted: ""Study members in the 'smacking only' category of punishment appeared to be particularly high-functioning and achieving members of society," she said." doesn't make any comparison to those who were never smacked and therefore isn't useful.

The rest of the article is just about how smacking isn't detrimental to a person, which is something I have never disagreed with since evidence on the subject is lackluster.

I asked for a study which demonstrates the usefulness of smacking over other forms of discipline. This study doesn't fulfill this request, and since it is also posted on the Herald website rather than in full it's difficult to assess how much picking and choosing the Herald has done. Call me fussy, but I'm not committing to a study without seeing all the details. Newspapers have a tendency to pick out the bits they want and leave the rest.
SpaceFighting
Profile Joined January 2010
New Zealand690 Posts
August 21 2011 11:05 GMT
#108
On August 01 2011 23:40 Matharos wrote:
This is sort of off topic, but it is in the spirit of Australia - New Zealand relations. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoF_fa9TMDk


LMAO "its crabs" omg brettttttt... didnt they air 1 whole season of this in the UK but didnt air it at all in NZ? oh my god i miss it =[
kuz pro
DJ_Amal
Profile Joined October 2010
New Zealand62 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 11:09:41
August 21 2011 11:07 GMT
#109
I am voting for the greens just because the economy is stagnating and I believe that it will continue to stagnate or grow very slowly for a long time to come unless we make drastic changes.

I believe that we need a long term approach to our problem and the greens policy of creating/investing in a "green" tech industry is in my opinion exactly what we need. Right now when we compare new zealand to other oecd countries with comparable population we find that most of them are better off than us (e.g. Scandinavians). We see that these countries have a strong high tech industries and by investing in the high tech sectors I think it will create strong growth albeit not right now but definitely in the future.
lothar10
Profile Joined June 2011
New Zealand9 Posts
August 21 2011 11:19 GMT
#110
DJ_Amal, you'll like this video if you haven't seen it yet



Speech by Sir Paul Callaghan regarding NZ's strengths in certain industries and how we should focus on those instead of other more traditional ones that we do
I could eat a knob at night
aFganFlyTrap
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia212 Posts
August 21 2011 11:30 GMT
#111
On August 21 2011 15:55 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 15:41 aFganFlyTrap wrote:
tax cuts fuel the economy and encourage investment? oh like over in America? gotcha!


Here you go:

+ Show Spoiler +
Rodney Hide MP
Finance Spokesman
http://www.act.org.nz
Office: +64 4 4706630; Mobile: +64 25 772 385
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: 22 FEBRUARY 2000
For more information contact:
Trish Sherson: Office: +64 4 4706644; Mobile: +64 25 570 803
tricia.sherson@parliament.govt.nz
SPEECH
New Zealand On $100 Million A Day
Rodney Hide MP
January 1999


Love, Trade and Guns

+ Show Spoiler +
Aristotle observed that man is a social animal. And that’s certainly true. We spend so
much of our lives, most of our lives, very little of our lives doing anything other than
doing things for other people and having them do things for us. That’s how we live.
And when you think about it for a moment there are three ways and only three ways to
get another human being to do something for you.

The first, and I believe it’s the most powerful, is love. We do things for our wives, for
our husbands, for our children – and likewise they do things for us – simply because
they love us. And we can ask them to do things for us. And they will do them no
questions asked. We have close friends that will do things for us if we just ask them.
Love is an amazingly powerful force for people doing things for other people.

The incredible thing about love is that it quickly attenuates. It doesn’t reach down the
end of the street. So if your neighbour at the farthest end of the street asks you to do
something that your wife or your husband or your children might ask you to do, saying,
“Please, do it for love”, you’re unlikely to be moved that way. So love is powerful but
it’s just for a few people in our lives – our family and our closest friends.

The other great motivator – the other way of getting people to do things for us – is
through trade. “You do this for me and I will give you this. You give me that and I will
give you this”. And that ladies and gentlemen is the most powerful mechanism for
social organisation right around the world. It’s what we do in our work. Look around
this room and realise that everything here was produced by trade, by the capitalist
spirit, by markets, by business, by the search for profits. That’s the power of trade.
And it’s terribly respectful because it recognises that the other person doesn’t have to
do it. And so it gives them something in return and if they choose to do it, and the price
is right, they will.

There is a third way of getting people to do things for you: force, the gun. You put a
gun to a person’s head and you say “Do this, or I’m going to pull the trigger”. That is
the third way of getting people to do things for you.

Ladies and gentlemen, I am an MP, a Member of Parliament, I’m a politician. Today I
stand before you and I represent the gun. I represent the force in our society to get
things out of people.

Page 2

The gun and force have delivered nothing good in the world. This past century has
been a terribly destructive century. Millions have been killed because of the gun,
because of politicians and because of Government. And that’s what I stand before you
to represent and you people, you folks, you represent the traders. The people who
produce, not through the gun, but by getting out, making a living and trading.
The socialist of all descriptions are interesting because they hate trade. They hate the
thought that you can go to someone and do a deal. They hate that. They hate that
people can make money. They think it is somehow exploitative. And they believe that
everything should be done for love. They want all of society organised like we organise
our families.

And what happens when they try that? They quickly discover everywhere it has been
tried, all through the ages, that love doesn’t stretch far enough, that it doesn’t reach
down the street. And so we end up the totalitarian dictators with the gun at the
peoples’ head and saying if you’re not going to do it for love, you’re going to do it for
this reason because if you don’t do it I’ll pull the trigger.


Government Waste, Government Computers

+ Show Spoiler +
I think it’s fair to say talking to people here and listening to the conversations that you
think that Government wastes money. I think it is fair to say that people sitting in the
audience think that we have too much Government, too much bureaucracy. By the
time I finish here today, you’re going to know it. Because I’m going to take you on an
insider’s journey into politics. What the politicians don’t tell you about how it works and
I’m going to take you right back to the very day that I turned up in Parliament and some
of the things that I’ve learnt about what they’re doing with your money.

ACT campaigned for three years to get into Parliament with as a new “less tax, less
government” party and we achieved 6.2% of the vote and got eight seats. I’d worked
very, very hard, but I was like the dog chasing the car, having arrived in Parliament
following the election I didn't know what to do. No MP gets a job description, you don’t
have a boss and I flew to Wellington and I went in and got an office and I was sitting in
my office wondering, “What does an MP do”? There are MPs that have been there for
twenty years and still ask that question.

And there was a telephone there so I rang all my friends in Wellington. He wasn’t
home.

On my desk was a computer, so I turned it on. This to me symbolised so much. And
the computer starts. I’ve never heard a computer like this before. It goes, ga-ching,
ga-ching, ga-ching, ga-ching. It was like it was just not connecting with the network or
something. And I went out – like all Politicians do – to get a cup of coffee. And have a
rest. And I came back with my cup of coffee, and it’s still going, ga-ching, ga-ching, gaching,
ga-ching, ga-ching. And then after several minutes of this, I got “Windows”.

Amazing. And then I pushed the little icon for “Word”. Ga-ching, ga-ching, ga-ching,
ga-ching, ga-ching, and again, I finished my cup of coffee, and then it appeared
“Word”.

I started to type and it couldn’t keep up. “Hey, this isn’t good enough”, I thought. This
isn’t going to work, you know, I’m in Parliament, I’ve got to have the gear. So I got the
parliamentary directory. There’s a thousand people that work in Parliament in New
Zealand. I should say on the payroll in Parliament. A thousand people on the payroll
and I found there is a man in charge of computers called John Preval and I rung him
up. I said “Hello John, it’s Rodney Hide”. He said, “What can I do for you”. I said, “It’s
about my computer”. He said, “Hang on, I’ll be there in a minute”. And the door

Page 4

everyone just yawned – “Oh yeh, who cares?” But they heard about that $29,170 on
cabs and they said, “this is an outrage”. Because that is an amount that we can feel,
that is an amount that represents something and then you have to ask yourself, “how
could you spend $29,000 on a cab?”

That’s enough to go from Auckland to London and in Jonathan’s case, still have the
odd trip into town for dinner.

Five billion dollars that’s what the Government had just announced. Does anyone
know what a billion dollars looks like? Well, I will tell you. Imagine you have a bundle
of a hundred-dollar notes, it’s a centimetre thick. There’s ten thousand dollars in it.
You slap it down on the table, bang, put another bundle on top, there’s twenty
thousand, another bundle on top, that’s thirty thousand, that’s Jonathan’s taxi bill; it’s
only three centimetres high. Another bundle, forty, fifty, sixty thousand. How high does
a billion reach? It’s a kilometre. It’s a kilometre. We were worried about three
centimetres and the Government had just announced spending of five kilometres high
of hundred dollar notes. That’s how much a billion dollars represents. And so behind
that campaign to clean up the MPs and fund them properly and to reveal their
accounts, was a very serious message that these guys have got to get real with your
money which seems a reasonable ask I would have thought.


Building a Palace and the Beehive on Wheels

+ Show Spoiler +
The next big thing that happened and highlights about Government was the plans to
build the new executive wing. I moved into a new office tower and it is very nice and I
got wind of the fact that they were planning a new executive wing. And, I asked
around, it was going to cost one hundred million dollars, and I have to say I was new to
politics and a hundred million still sounded like a lot of money to me. So I inquired a bit
more and then discovered that we didn’t need this building. So the ACT caucus, eight
MPs met, and convinced ourselves that we didn’t need it and we would organise a
campaign against it.

Richard Prebble dubbed it the Parliamentary Palace, which did more to kill it than
anything else we did. Over 200,000 New Zealanders in three weeks signed a petition
opposing the Palace. That’s 10% of the voting public, against the Palace – mad
Socialists signed it, right wingers signed it, everyone signed it. People like us signed it
too. Sane, reasonable, intelligent people like us – signed that petition. That petition
came into Parliament and we forced a parliamentary inquiry. I forced it into the public
and so the select committee had to sit there and we heard from every interest group
under the sun, from the CTU, that is the Union, the hard core union, to the Business
Roundtable which is the sort of hard core business representative interest group lobby
in New Zealand, and they’re all against the Palace. Submission after submission after
submission said this Palace is nuts. There was only one submission that we got by the
way that was in favour of it and that was from a little union in the construction industry
based in Wellington. And they had some very cogent arguments that the committee
picked up on. We had three days of public hearings and we went back into committee.
Back in the Committee room, the MPs were all in favour of the Palace. “Well,” I said,
“that’s all right. Let’s vote on it. I’m against, who is for?” “Oh, I’m not going to vote,”
they said. I said, “Why not?” “Well, you will just tell everyone how we voted. You are
just going to go into our electorate and leaflet everyone and say, you know, that this
MP and that MP, and we all voted for the Palace.” And I said, “that’s right. Let’s vote.”
Oh, no one wanted to vote. We need to talk about it some more. We met for three

Page 5

further weeks to discuss it. Who is in property development in the audience? OK,
who’s done a hundred million-dollar development, that’s big, one hundred million is big.
I said let’s have a look at the financials. Don McKinnon who is the senior National
party politician on the fiscally-conservative side, he said, “You know it’s not a lot of
money Rodney, what are you beefing about?” It’s a hundred million. I now know what
he was getting at. Politicians in New Zealand spend one hundred million dollars each
and every day – three hundred and sixty five days of the year. A hundred million to a
politician is not a lot of money. But it’s a million New Zealanders paying one hundred
dollars. And a hundred dollars is a lot. And a million people is certainly a lot, and a
hundred million dollars is a lot.

We discovered that there were no financials done. There was no comparison of costs.
I kicked up about this and the financials were duly prepared. I have seen numbers,
ladies and gentlemen, that have been cooked. These weren’t cooked; they were
poached, they were fried, they were scrambled – the benefits were double-counted,
costs were netted out. It was just garbage. Turned out that we would have built this
one hundred million-dollar building for nothing – which is pretty impressive even by
New Zealand Government standards. We had the Minister in front of us and I started
to question him and his officials about these numbers. I got three minutes into it ladies
and gentlemen and the chairman of the select committee said, “Look, we don’t want to
get bogged down in the minutiae do we”, and shut me up. Talking about spending one
hundred million dollars to a politician is getting bogged down in the minutiae. Can you
believe that?

I was brought up a Protestant, I’m not religious now, but my parents were Methodist,
Presbyterian and Anglican, sounds like I had three parents, no, we moved around in
the country. And it has left me with this terrible thing about having fun. I don’t know
what Methodism was like outside of North Canterbury, but in North Canterbury having
fun was sinful and the next thing was spending money. And to this day I still struggle
spending money. I was brought up that you just earned money, I don’t what you did
with it, you just put it in your sock, like my father did, and you just let inflation take care
of it. And so I have this terrible problem about spending money and here I am a
politician spending millions and millions and millions.

I go home most nights with a knot in my stomach just from watching millions and
millions being spent, you can imagine how it feels. And you walk out of Parliament or
you come home to Auckland or you go on the road and you go to the Taranaki or to
Gisborne, or you go anywhere, and you see how hard people work and you see what
ten or twenty or thirty dollars a week means to them and you view and realise the
contempt with which Government and politicians spend that money and it makes me
personally ill. Because it is not our money to spend. It’s your money. And I think you
should spend other people’s money much more carefully than you spend your own. Of
course, we do the reverse.

By the way, politicians enjoy it. Just like the IRD enjoy watching you shiver and shake,
politicians enjoy spending money and I know this for a fact because I was sitting in a
committee once and a politician slumped down beside me and to give him his due, he
was from the left wing party and so I guess by wasting money he was following their
policy line, but he just said “You won’t believe what has just happened in the meeting
we just had”. I said “What’s that?” He said “We just agreed to spend another two
million dollars, imagine that,” and he started laughing and I said “What on?” And he
said, “Buggered if I know. But two million, can you imagine it?” I said, “I might tell
audiences that”, and he shut up.

Page 6

Five months previously he had been an ordinary bloke, toiling away. Got elected to
Parliament, suddenly had access to the back pocket of all the people in this room. And
he had just raided it and spent some dough and it felt good. It felt great. Felt that he
was doing God’s work and improving the Ministry of Women’s Affairs. Because they
work hard, do lots of good work.

But back to this Palace. So we struggled around with it and they didn’t want to vote.
And we got all the plans out and everyone was trying to look for a way forward and I
was obstinate. And what I have decided to do in politics is that I don’t fight all the
battles that one can fight, I just pick one or two, and I just be obstinate on those one or
two. They had all the plans out and you will know that Parliament has this beautiful old
stone building, built in the depression, and then beside that, that ugly Beehive built in
sixties, and someone said, “Isn’t it a shame that the Beehive is right where it is,
because if it wasn’t there we could finish Parliament”. So I said “Well, why don’t we
shift the Beehive.” I said it as a joke. The next week we came back and the officials
had prepared plans for shifting the Beehive. The Beehive weighs 20,000 tons, it’s solid
concrete, it would have been the third largest building in the world ever to have been
shifted. All you need to know about the economics of shifting large buildings is that the
other two were all in the former USSR. I am sitting there with a typical political
dilemma. What do I do now? Everyone is jumping about, saying, “Yeah, we’ll shift the
Beehive, what do you think Rodney?”

I decided on a cunning plan. I said, “That’s a good idea, let’s look at it.” We would
write the report saying, “We would shift the Beehive subject to getting the costs
checked out” and that would get the committee moving, everyone would laugh like you
did about shifting the Beehive and it would kill it, and would kill the Palace with it,
because we recommended against the Palace. So all that happened, the report was
prepared, and New Zealanders, you will remember this, they just roared with horror,
laughter, disgust, that here they had prepared a 200,000 signed petition, they had gone
to the select committee and beaten up the politicians, and the politicians had gone
away and thought about it saying, “The people of New Zealand don’t want to waste
money on a Palace, so we will spend twice that and we will shift the Beehive”.
At that point voters started to think that their government was out of touch. And I
thought – that’s great, that’s it dead!

Three weeks later I get a phone call from the Holmes Show saying, “The Prime
Minister has just announced that as part of the millennium project, the Government is
going to shift the Beehive”. I couldn’t believe it. I went on the Holmes Show with the
Prime Minister. And he was losing. I didn’t have to say much. I just kept saying “put it
on wheels Prime Minister, put it on wheels Prime Minister?” And I just shook my head
like this guy is nuts. I didn’t say anything, I just shook my head – what is wrong with
this guy? And then Prime Minister Bolger, got on the attack and he said “But Rodney
Hide, Rodney Hide, you were part of the committee that recommended this”. And I
was just sitting there and the camera just went on me, and I felt like saying “It was only
a joke Prime Minister – I never thought anyone would be stupid enough to ever take it
seriously.” But I faded at the critical moment and I said something a bit softer than that.
And of course, the public were outraged and that was killed.

But think about it, hundred million. We spend a hundred times that in New Zealand on
welfare a year. A hundred times that, on welfare in a year and what do we buy?
Misery, broken homes, kids not being looked after. Do we see a petition being
generated about that – no.

But these examples illustrate the politician’s propensity to spend money without regard
to the people who earned it. To the people that it actually belongs to, to the people that

Page 7

we represent and who give us this money, presumably for good purpose, not for bad
purpose. And that’s what’s happened around Governments around the world.


The Spending Culture

+ Show Spoiler +
About this time in Parliament I realised I was suffering some sort of cultural shock.
When you do any job, it has a culture and you quickly learn it and you get comfortable
with it. I used to drive trucks a lot as a living and when you are a truck driver, you meet
other truck drivers and you talk about horse power, and tonnage, and the quickest
routes, and who can carry the most the fastest, and you have that smell of diesel about
you. I then went in and taught at university, and the same thing. You talk about
lecturing and about students learning and about research. And that has a culture too.
If you’re in business, it has a culture of profit and loss, of talking about customers, of
talking about what works and here I was in Parliament, and this culture just didn’t fit. It
didn’t make sense, I was out of tune with it. I felt like a person behind enemy lines.
The language was all different. The social mores were all different. Everything was
different about it to what anything I had ever experienced in my life.

And I have discovered what it is. It is because Parliament and politics and
Governments and politicians, we don’t produce anything actually. We don’t produce
anything. And it is very hard to have a culture like that you are familiar with if you’re not
producing something, because that’s what you talk about, that’s your reason for getting
up in the morning, to go there and get in that truck and shift some freight, or teach
some kids, or make some money. Politics? The only thing we do is spend and that is
the culture, it is a spending culture. There’s not a problem out there that a politician
can’t fix by throwing more of your money at it. He knows actually, and she knows, that
it won’t fix it, but it looks good. There you go, throw some money, that will fix it.
Where’s the next one? And people love you when you throw money at them even
though it is their money. Sort of with about 50% siphoned off on the way through. So
it’s a spending culture.

There is another thing about politics that I discovered. I call politics “decision making
without property rights” because no politician or Government Official owns anything.
They don’t have any assets, and they don’t have any liabilities, as we understand the
phrase. So, no one fixes problems. No one says yeah, that’s a problem let’s fix it.
People in this room, you all have assets and liabilities. If your business or your
property is in trouble you have got to put your hand up and fix it, because it is your
responsibility, you know it, and if you don’t fix it, it is going to cost you. In politics we’re
not like that. Ho, here’s a problem, oh good, shove it to that guy, flick, and he gets it
and oh, oh, I don’t want this problem, so flick. And then finally what we do is we just
shuffle problems into the future for someone else to deal with and then we think that’s a
solution. And you can see problems being shunted around in sound bites on TV.

It is nothing like the capitalist process where there is an owner, where there is an
asset, where future income streams are being capitalised in the value of that asset and
you have to respond to the costs and benefits of that stream and do something about
them. Nothing like that exists in politics. It is all fluff and no substance and that’s why,
that’s why, we look through the veil of politics and feel so deeply frustrated and so
irritated because we know there are real problems in education and health and in
welfare and with Government spending and with bureaucrats out of control, but no-one
in Government will put their hand up and say, “yes, I am responsible for that, watch me,
I’ll fix it”. Never. They shift the problem on to someone else.

Page 8


Politicians’ Life Blood

+ Show Spoiler +
And of course, the root cause of all of this is tax. Tax, it is the lifeblood of the political
process. It’s our ability to get money out of peoples’ pay packets, out of their weekly
budgets, out of the petrol that they buy, out of everything that they do, that feeds us
and allows us to survive. And the tax laws are hugely complex, no one can follow
them. I recently had the New Zealand Inland Revenue Commissioner Graham Holland
before a select committee. And I said, “Commissioner, do you understand the tax laws
of New Zealand”. He just looked at me. Then the committee chairman beat me up and
said, “Oh, you can’t abuse the Commissioner of Inland Revenue like that”. “I wasn’t
abusing him, I was just interested, does he understand the law that here we are
passing”. He doesn’t. The Commissioner of Inland Revenue doesn’t understand all
the tax laws. The dairy owner has to. The plumber has to. Every property developer
has to. But no one can, no-one can sit in this room and feel comfortable that they’ve
obeyed the tax laws of New Zealand because you don’t understand them and take it
from me folks, I sit on the Committee and in the Parliament that passes these things,
and we don’t understand them. We do not understand the tax laws that pass in New
Zealand, it is the same in Australia, the same in Canada, it’s the same in the United
States.

We had to employ a QC on the select committee to advise us about what the IRD were
telling us about the law because we couldn’t understand it. He got confused. They
ended up concluding that the law, this was on international tax, they concluded that it
wasn't perfect, it had a lot of mistakes in it, but we would pass it anyway and fix it up
next year. Can you imagine running your business like that. And we’re running the
country. We not only spend money ladies and gentlemen, we make laws just to put
you in the right box.

Tell you one law we passed, it was under urgency. Urgency is a big deal. It goes into
urgency, important things to be done. You sit there all hours and everyone fights and
scraps – I love it. And came up under urgency and people may have missed this. But
we passed in 1997, under urgency, the Medical Auxiliary (Podiatrists) Amendment Bill.
Now podiatrists are foot doctors, you know they blow your corns off and cut your
toenails. And we had a very serious problem confronting New Zealand. Because, we
have a Podiatrists’ Board just to check that the people that are doing podiatry are
kosher, and they have a set of exams and a certificate that you get and in 1984 the
Government changes the rules and said, because we had immigrant podiatrists, and
they just used to come in and they would satisfy the board and they would get a
certificate too. But the Government in 1984 changed the rules and said, that they
could no longer just come in willy nilly, but they have to sit the New Zealand exam for
podiatry in order to be duly qualified. That was great, that passed in 1984. However,
no one told the Podiatrists’ Board. And of course, you remember the 1984-1996
period, podiatrists were just sweeping into New Zealand from overseas and the
Podiatrists’ Board was giving them their certificates if they said they said that they had
been taught at Harvard or somewhere. But this was illegal. And so what we had to do
was pass under urgency, retrospective legislation that would enable eleven immigrant
podiatrists to practice here in New Zealand like they had been doing for several years.
I don’t know about you folks but I find it sort of scary that we have a Podiatrists’ Board.
I find it sort of scary that you need a licence to cut someone’s toenails for a fee. I find it
sort of scary that Parliament had to pass a law to make it legal for eleven immigrant
podiatrists to practice here. What I find really scary was that our Parliament spent one
hour and forty minutes debating it.

At the time, our schools are in crisis, kids are going there spending years and years of
school not getting educated, our health system is a mess, 120,000 people queued up

Page 9

in agony — paid tax all their life, can’t get treated. Pension schemes busted with a
bang, it’s bankrupt. We had the downturn that was winding down the economy,
provincial New Zealand was bleeding, but don’t worry, we’re in Parliament under
urgency debating for one hour and forty minutes the Medical Auxiliary (Podiatrists)
Amendment Bill to make sure eleven podiatrists weren’t here acting illegally. If you
ever wonder why politicians are so boring, you try talking for ten minutes about
podiatry. And about the effect illegal immigrants practising podiatry has on the social
fabric of New Zealand. I watched it done.

So we pass laws, we pass laws, we pass tax laws and the tax laws that we have in
New Zealand, we don’t understand them, thousands and thousands of pages of these,
we’re supposed comply, God knows how you can. And think about the power that they
shift across to the tax department. The awesome powers and the comparison is to the
Police.


IRD Powers

+ Show Spoiler +
In New Zealand, the IRD can bust into your business, into your dairy, into your
plumbing shop, into your farm, they can bust into it, any hour of the day and they don’t
need a warrant. The Police can’t do that. The Police might be chasing Son of Sam
and they’ve got to get a warrant. They might be chasing the worst rapist in history and
they’ve got to get a warrant, and they are trained. But these IRD officers with very little
training, who are up against, you know, really scary people like plumbers and
paperhangers, people that work for a living. They have powers to enter your business
at the drop of a hat and do a search. Your Parliament gave that department those
powers. They have powers to require you to answer every question that they put to
you. If you are scumbag murderer or rapist, you can say, “I’m not answering that
question”, but if you are a dairy owner you had better, and it’s the IRD you have to,
because if you don’t they can hit you with a fine for $25,000.

Are we starting to talk like our values are upside down. That we have rights to protect
the criminal class but the productive class, the working class, the people that create all
the wealth have no rights when confronted with the tax department after its pound of
flesh and pint of blood.

They have the ability to assert that you owe a debt and it is your job to prove that you
don’t. Nowhere else in our legal processes do we have that. We believe that we
have a free society, a capitalist society, a democracy where you’re innocent until you
are proven guilty. That’s true if you’re a murderer, that’s true if you’re a rapist, that’s
true if you’re a burglar, that’s true if you’re a thug, but if you’re a taxpayer, it’s not true.
You are guilty until you prove that you are innocent. So the department can allege a
million-dollar debt and you have to prove that you don’t owe it. How can you prove that
you don’t owe it, when you don’t even know what it’s about? And they’re not required
by law to tell you what it’s about. They can just assert it. Not only can they assert a
debt against you, but even before it goes to Court you have to cough up half. Can you
imagine that? You’re paying for your lawyers, you’re paying for your accountants,
you’ve got this big debt, you have to pay half even before your case is heard. This is
an outrage. And these tax laws are having a huge consequence. There are two
problems with tax. It’s too much, and the laws are too vicious.

The IRD made a mistake a few years back. They brought in some overseas
economists to study the economic impact of tax in New Zealand. They discovered,
contrary to what the IRD thought would happen, that tax is way too high. The IRD
believe their propaganda and believe that tax is great and it’s the price we pay for
civilisation. These economists searching in New Zealand said that if we’d had the tax
take of 20% or 25%, which is still too high, but which is what we had post-war through

Page 10

the fifties and sixties, if we had that tax take in New Zealand today, rather than 35%,
that New Zealand would be 50% wealthier. Can you imagine that? Fifty percent
wealthier. It’s not just what they have taken off us that we lose, it is all the lost
opportunities, it’s all the investments, it’s all the businesses, it’s all the jobs that would
have been, if the tax rate hadn’t been so high. Imagine how much richer you would
have been if we hadn’t have had tax for all those years?

You think the department and the politicians would get that report and say, “Oh, this is
great news! We know how to get the economy moving. We know how to create jobs”.
No. They suppressed it. They wouldn’t release it. It took me over twelve months
hounding the department with official information requests as an MP to get my hands
on those documents. This research was paid for with our money. And still they
wouldn’t cough it up, and so tax is having a tremendous impact on our economy, on
our businesses, on our jobs at an economic level but at a personal level too, because
how can you operate in business confidently, concentrating on your customer,
concentrating on your costs when you’ve got this band of thugs, state-sanctioned
thugs, ready to pounce? How can you operate with confidence and with joy as you go
about your job?

I want to end with just one story. There is a guy in New Zealand, he lived on the Kapiti
coast. Ian Lee Mutton was his name. He was a good guy. Father, husband, two little
kiddies, and he was a good sportsman, and he worked and he liked a wee drink and
having fun. And his business was, and he worked hard at it, was putting in air
conditioning units in new office towers. And he had a dream, he dreamt that rather
than working for other people he could go out into business on his own. And he did
that. And he was good at the work, but he was a lousy businessman. He quoted too
low, some of his people didn’t pay, and the costs got out of control. But he persevered
and he learnt. He got to the end of one year 1992, and he owed $6,000 terminal tax.
No big deal, knew he owed it, was going to pay it.

He then had an accident off a ladder at work and broke his ankle and couldn’t work.
He had been assessed for this tax, and the demands kept coming. His ACC, such as it
is for self-employed didn’t come, even though he had been paying it all these years.
So he and his family were suffering no end. Here he was hobbling around on crutches.
He went repeatedly to the IRD with his wife saying, “Look, I can’t pay this”. They
wouldn’t listen to him. He had to pay, they’re the rules. He says, “I’m not working”,
doesn’t matter. He gets back to work, someone smashes his utility up and he has to
spend more money so he can keep working. He pays his tax that year, he pays his tax
the next year, he pays in his next year more tax than he has ever paid in his life as a
percentage. And he gets to the end of that year, and he owes more than he did at the
start. Because the penalties and the interest are just overwhelming him. His
accountant and his business manager go in to see the IRD begging them to give this
guy some relief. He’s working hard, here’s all his accounts, give him some relief. They
wouldn’t.

His marriage split up, his wife couldn’t take the pressure. He was behaving strangely,
the pressure was huge on him. That bills were just being generated by that horrible
computer that the IRD has and they would be arriving at his house in envelopes and in
the finish, he couldn’t even open them, he just threw them in the bin. In his final year,
he went on booze a bit. He didn’t pay any tax, so it mounted, and the debt got to
$45,000. He then snapped out of it, he stopped the drinking, he got back with his wife,
he realised that he had to make his business go bankrupt, stop his dreams, stop his
aspirations. And he got a job working in Queenstown, putting in air conditioning units
working for someone else. All he had in the world at that point was a utility worth
$5,000 and $1,100 worth of tools.

Page 11

On the day that he was to leave to Queenstown to take up his new job, the IRD turned
up. They wanted the ute, and the tools, to offset the debt. They were going to take the
very means that he had to make a living. He drove the utility up to the Otaki Gorge and
killed himself. He penned before he died a message to the IRD, saying that “you are
responsible for this, that you have taken everything that I ever had, that I now leave this
world like I came into it, with nothing, but that I beat you, because you no longer going
to get any more out of me,” and he signed, the last thing he did on earth, was to sign
that note, “one happy man”.

The IRD got that note, they turned up at the widow’s house wanting the ute and the
tools. She then, ladies and gentlemen, goes outside and stands on the porch and sees
her twelve-year-old son hanging dead from the tree. He couldn’t take his father’s
death. The IRD have never apologised, never said they have done wrong.

These laws, ladies and gentlemen, they are not just costing us jobs, they’re not just
putting us in fear, but they’re costing good people their lives. That’s what our tax laws
are doing in this country.

And do you know, the basic amount of money that the IRD were chasing Ian Lee
Mutton for wouldn’t pay for one MP’s taxi for a year. Are our values upside down or
not?

I want to leave you with this message. I’m a politician, I’m in Parliament, we have the
guns. We have the flash cars and we have the flags. It’s great driving in a car with
flags. But we have no moral authority. Because we produce nothing. We generate
nothing. We are parasitical on the taxpayers of New Zealand. We are parasitical on
Ian Lee Mutton and we are parasitical on each and every person in this room. The
moral authority, ladies and gentlemen, rests with each and everyone of you, because,
you are the producers, you are the workers, you are the creators, not Government, not
politicians, not bureaucrats, you are. And we will make progress in knocking back the
state when each of you, and I think every one in this room have already done this, but
you need to get your neighbours to do it, and your friends to do it, and your family to do
it, say, “We are not asking government for anything” – because when you ask
Government for things, that’s when you lose your moral authority, that’s when they get
it, and they’re only going to take more than they ever give. Don’t ask the Government
for anything. That’s the key to getting taxes down, and the key to getting taxes down is
say, “This is my money, I earnt it, don’t you spend it”, and ladies and gentlemen, I truly
believe we are going to have a revolution around the western world and it’s going to
start in New Zealand. Because we’ve had enough. It is going to start in New Zealand
and spread to Australia and Australia is going to start cutting its taxes. And when
people see what that is doing to our economy and to our people, America and Canada
will follow. Europe will follow. Because the world is a competitive place and if one
country starts dramatically cutting its taxes, all countries will have to follow. And let’s
hope and pray and work towards that day. Because ladies and gentlemen, when we
have that day, we will have more love, we will have more trade, and we will have less
gun. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is something worth working towards.

ENDS


thats an interesting read and some great anecdotal evidence on why government needs to be less wasteful and vastly more efficient. hell you wont get anybody from either end of the political spectrum fighting you on that one. Corruption, human greed and yes...stupidity will always be a thorn in the side of any democracy.

HOWEVER i fail to see how this has anything to do with the the empirical evidence provided by the American economy in the last 10 years that shows tax cuts and trickle down economics are a complete and abject failure.


my remark to begin with was said flippantly and half jokingly btw.
VegaNZ
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand317 Posts
August 21 2011 11:36 GMT
#112
Haven't lived in NZ for 5 and a half years now. Really hard to get any real for who's doing what any more. My folks seem to like the guy in charge now so I guess that's good enough for me.

Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 12:30 GMT
#113
On August 21 2011 20:30 aFganFlyTrap wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 15:55 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 15:41 aFganFlyTrap wrote:
tax cuts fuel the economy and encourage investment? oh like over in America? gotcha!


Here you go:

+ Show Spoiler +
Rodney Hide MP
Finance Spokesman
http://www.act.org.nz
Office: +64 4 4706630; Mobile: +64 25 772 385
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: 22 FEBRUARY 2000
For more information contact:
Trish Sherson: Office: +64 4 4706644; Mobile: +64 25 570 803
tricia.sherson@parliament.govt.nz
SPEECH
New Zealand On $100 Million A Day
Rodney Hide MP
January 1999


Love, Trade and Guns

+ Show Spoiler +
Aristotle observed that man is a social animal. And that’s certainly true. We spend so
much of our lives, most of our lives, very little of our lives doing anything other than
doing things for other people and having them do things for us. That’s how we live.
And when you think about it for a moment there are three ways and only three ways to
get another human being to do something for you.

The first, and I believe it’s the most powerful, is love. We do things for our wives, for
our husbands, for our children – and likewise they do things for us – simply because
they love us. And we can ask them to do things for us. And they will do them no
questions asked. We have close friends that will do things for us if we just ask them.
Love is an amazingly powerful force for people doing things for other people.

The incredible thing about love is that it quickly attenuates. It doesn’t reach down the
end of the street. So if your neighbour at the farthest end of the street asks you to do
something that your wife or your husband or your children might ask you to do, saying,
“Please, do it for love”, you’re unlikely to be moved that way. So love is powerful but
it’s just for a few people in our lives – our family and our closest friends.

The other great motivator – the other way of getting people to do things for us – is
through trade. “You do this for me and I will give you this. You give me that and I will
give you this”. And that ladies and gentlemen is the most powerful mechanism for
social organisation right around the world. It’s what we do in our work. Look around
this room and realise that everything here was produced by trade, by the capitalist
spirit, by markets, by business, by the search for profits. That’s the power of trade.
And it’s terribly respectful because it recognises that the other person doesn’t have to
do it. And so it gives them something in return and if they choose to do it, and the price
is right, they will.

There is a third way of getting people to do things for you: force, the gun. You put a
gun to a person’s head and you say “Do this, or I’m going to pull the trigger”. That is
the third way of getting people to do things for you.

Ladies and gentlemen, I am an MP, a Member of Parliament, I’m a politician. Today I
stand before you and I represent the gun. I represent the force in our society to get
things out of people.

Page 2

The gun and force have delivered nothing good in the world. This past century has
been a terribly destructive century. Millions have been killed because of the gun,
because of politicians and because of Government. And that’s what I stand before you
to represent and you people, you folks, you represent the traders. The people who
produce, not through the gun, but by getting out, making a living and trading.
The socialist of all descriptions are interesting because they hate trade. They hate the
thought that you can go to someone and do a deal. They hate that. They hate that
people can make money. They think it is somehow exploitative. And they believe that
everything should be done for love. They want all of society organised like we organise
our families.

And what happens when they try that? They quickly discover everywhere it has been
tried, all through the ages, that love doesn’t stretch far enough, that it doesn’t reach
down the street. And so we end up the totalitarian dictators with the gun at the
peoples’ head and saying if you’re not going to do it for love, you’re going to do it for
this reason because if you don’t do it I’ll pull the trigger.


Government Waste, Government Computers

+ Show Spoiler +
I think it’s fair to say talking to people here and listening to the conversations that you
think that Government wastes money. I think it is fair to say that people sitting in the
audience think that we have too much Government, too much bureaucracy. By the
time I finish here today, you’re going to know it. Because I’m going to take you on an
insider’s journey into politics. What the politicians don’t tell you about how it works and
I’m going to take you right back to the very day that I turned up in Parliament and some
of the things that I’ve learnt about what they’re doing with your money.

ACT campaigned for three years to get into Parliament with as a new “less tax, less
government” party and we achieved 6.2% of the vote and got eight seats. I’d worked
very, very hard, but I was like the dog chasing the car, having arrived in Parliament
following the election I didn't know what to do. No MP gets a job description, you don’t
have a boss and I flew to Wellington and I went in and got an office and I was sitting in
my office wondering, “What does an MP do”? There are MPs that have been there for
twenty years and still ask that question.

And there was a telephone there so I rang all my friends in Wellington. He wasn’t
home.

On my desk was a computer, so I turned it on. This to me symbolised so much. And
the computer starts. I’ve never heard a computer like this before. It goes, ga-ching,
ga-ching, ga-ching, ga-ching. It was like it was just not connecting with the network or
something. And I went out – like all Politicians do – to get a cup of coffee. And have a
rest. And I came back with my cup of coffee, and it’s still going, ga-ching, ga-ching, gaching,
ga-ching, ga-ching. And then after several minutes of this, I got “Windows”.

Amazing. And then I pushed the little icon for “Word”. Ga-ching, ga-ching, ga-ching,
ga-ching, ga-ching, and again, I finished my cup of coffee, and then it appeared
“Word”.

I started to type and it couldn’t keep up. “Hey, this isn’t good enough”, I thought. This
isn’t going to work, you know, I’m in Parliament, I’ve got to have the gear. So I got the
parliamentary directory. There’s a thousand people that work in Parliament in New
Zealand. I should say on the payroll in Parliament. A thousand people on the payroll
and I found there is a man in charge of computers called John Preval and I rung him
up. I said “Hello John, it’s Rodney Hide”. He said, “What can I do for you”. I said, “It’s
about my computer”. He said, “Hang on, I’ll be there in a minute”. And the door

Page 4

everyone just yawned – “Oh yeh, who cares?” But they heard about that $29,170 on
cabs and they said, “this is an outrage”. Because that is an amount that we can feel,
that is an amount that represents something and then you have to ask yourself, “how
could you spend $29,000 on a cab?”

That’s enough to go from Auckland to London and in Jonathan’s case, still have the
odd trip into town for dinner.

Five billion dollars that’s what the Government had just announced. Does anyone
know what a billion dollars looks like? Well, I will tell you. Imagine you have a bundle
of a hundred-dollar notes, it’s a centimetre thick. There’s ten thousand dollars in it.
You slap it down on the table, bang, put another bundle on top, there’s twenty
thousand, another bundle on top, that’s thirty thousand, that’s Jonathan’s taxi bill; it’s
only three centimetres high. Another bundle, forty, fifty, sixty thousand. How high does
a billion reach? It’s a kilometre. It’s a kilometre. We were worried about three
centimetres and the Government had just announced spending of five kilometres high
of hundred dollar notes. That’s how much a billion dollars represents. And so behind
that campaign to clean up the MPs and fund them properly and to reveal their
accounts, was a very serious message that these guys have got to get real with your
money which seems a reasonable ask I would have thought.


Building a Palace and the Beehive on Wheels

+ Show Spoiler +
The next big thing that happened and highlights about Government was the plans to
build the new executive wing. I moved into a new office tower and it is very nice and I
got wind of the fact that they were planning a new executive wing. And, I asked
around, it was going to cost one hundred million dollars, and I have to say I was new to
politics and a hundred million still sounded like a lot of money to me. So I inquired a bit
more and then discovered that we didn’t need this building. So the ACT caucus, eight
MPs met, and convinced ourselves that we didn’t need it and we would organise a
campaign against it.

Richard Prebble dubbed it the Parliamentary Palace, which did more to kill it than
anything else we did. Over 200,000 New Zealanders in three weeks signed a petition
opposing the Palace. That’s 10% of the voting public, against the Palace – mad
Socialists signed it, right wingers signed it, everyone signed it. People like us signed it
too. Sane, reasonable, intelligent people like us – signed that petition. That petition
came into Parliament and we forced a parliamentary inquiry. I forced it into the public
and so the select committee had to sit there and we heard from every interest group
under the sun, from the CTU, that is the Union, the hard core union, to the Business
Roundtable which is the sort of hard core business representative interest group lobby
in New Zealand, and they’re all against the Palace. Submission after submission after
submission said this Palace is nuts. There was only one submission that we got by the
way that was in favour of it and that was from a little union in the construction industry
based in Wellington. And they had some very cogent arguments that the committee
picked up on. We had three days of public hearings and we went back into committee.
Back in the Committee room, the MPs were all in favour of the Palace. “Well,” I said,
“that’s all right. Let’s vote on it. I’m against, who is for?” “Oh, I’m not going to vote,”
they said. I said, “Why not?” “Well, you will just tell everyone how we voted. You are
just going to go into our electorate and leaflet everyone and say, you know, that this
MP and that MP, and we all voted for the Palace.” And I said, “that’s right. Let’s vote.”
Oh, no one wanted to vote. We need to talk about it some more. We met for three

Page 5

further weeks to discuss it. Who is in property development in the audience? OK,
who’s done a hundred million-dollar development, that’s big, one hundred million is big.
I said let’s have a look at the financials. Don McKinnon who is the senior National
party politician on the fiscally-conservative side, he said, “You know it’s not a lot of
money Rodney, what are you beefing about?” It’s a hundred million. I now know what
he was getting at. Politicians in New Zealand spend one hundred million dollars each
and every day – three hundred and sixty five days of the year. A hundred million to a
politician is not a lot of money. But it’s a million New Zealanders paying one hundred
dollars. And a hundred dollars is a lot. And a million people is certainly a lot, and a
hundred million dollars is a lot.

We discovered that there were no financials done. There was no comparison of costs.
I kicked up about this and the financials were duly prepared. I have seen numbers,
ladies and gentlemen, that have been cooked. These weren’t cooked; they were
poached, they were fried, they were scrambled – the benefits were double-counted,
costs were netted out. It was just garbage. Turned out that we would have built this
one hundred million-dollar building for nothing – which is pretty impressive even by
New Zealand Government standards. We had the Minister in front of us and I started
to question him and his officials about these numbers. I got three minutes into it ladies
and gentlemen and the chairman of the select committee said, “Look, we don’t want to
get bogged down in the minutiae do we”, and shut me up. Talking about spending one
hundred million dollars to a politician is getting bogged down in the minutiae. Can you
believe that?

I was brought up a Protestant, I’m not religious now, but my parents were Methodist,
Presbyterian and Anglican, sounds like I had three parents, no, we moved around in
the country. And it has left me with this terrible thing about having fun. I don’t know
what Methodism was like outside of North Canterbury, but in North Canterbury having
fun was sinful and the next thing was spending money. And to this day I still struggle
spending money. I was brought up that you just earned money, I don’t what you did
with it, you just put it in your sock, like my father did, and you just let inflation take care
of it. And so I have this terrible problem about spending money and here I am a
politician spending millions and millions and millions.

I go home most nights with a knot in my stomach just from watching millions and
millions being spent, you can imagine how it feels. And you walk out of Parliament or
you come home to Auckland or you go on the road and you go to the Taranaki or to
Gisborne, or you go anywhere, and you see how hard people work and you see what
ten or twenty or thirty dollars a week means to them and you view and realise the
contempt with which Government and politicians spend that money and it makes me
personally ill. Because it is not our money to spend. It’s your money. And I think you
should spend other people’s money much more carefully than you spend your own. Of
course, we do the reverse.

By the way, politicians enjoy it. Just like the IRD enjoy watching you shiver and shake,
politicians enjoy spending money and I know this for a fact because I was sitting in a
committee once and a politician slumped down beside me and to give him his due, he
was from the left wing party and so I guess by wasting money he was following their
policy line, but he just said “You won’t believe what has just happened in the meeting
we just had”. I said “What’s that?” He said “We just agreed to spend another two
million dollars, imagine that,” and he started laughing and I said “What on?” And he
said, “Buggered if I know. But two million, can you imagine it?” I said, “I might tell
audiences that”, and he shut up.

Page 6

Five months previously he had been an ordinary bloke, toiling away. Got elected to
Parliament, suddenly had access to the back pocket of all the people in this room. And
he had just raided it and spent some dough and it felt good. It felt great. Felt that he
was doing God’s work and improving the Ministry of Women’s Affairs. Because they
work hard, do lots of good work.

But back to this Palace. So we struggled around with it and they didn’t want to vote.
And we got all the plans out and everyone was trying to look for a way forward and I
was obstinate. And what I have decided to do in politics is that I don’t fight all the
battles that one can fight, I just pick one or two, and I just be obstinate on those one or
two. They had all the plans out and you will know that Parliament has this beautiful old
stone building, built in the depression, and then beside that, that ugly Beehive built in
sixties, and someone said, “Isn’t it a shame that the Beehive is right where it is,
because if it wasn’t there we could finish Parliament”. So I said “Well, why don’t we
shift the Beehive.” I said it as a joke. The next week we came back and the officials
had prepared plans for shifting the Beehive. The Beehive weighs 20,000 tons, it’s solid
concrete, it would have been the third largest building in the world ever to have been
shifted. All you need to know about the economics of shifting large buildings is that the
other two were all in the former USSR. I am sitting there with a typical political
dilemma. What do I do now? Everyone is jumping about, saying, “Yeah, we’ll shift the
Beehive, what do you think Rodney?”

I decided on a cunning plan. I said, “That’s a good idea, let’s look at it.” We would
write the report saying, “We would shift the Beehive subject to getting the costs
checked out” and that would get the committee moving, everyone would laugh like you
did about shifting the Beehive and it would kill it, and would kill the Palace with it,
because we recommended against the Palace. So all that happened, the report was
prepared, and New Zealanders, you will remember this, they just roared with horror,
laughter, disgust, that here they had prepared a 200,000 signed petition, they had gone
to the select committee and beaten up the politicians, and the politicians had gone
away and thought about it saying, “The people of New Zealand don’t want to waste
money on a Palace, so we will spend twice that and we will shift the Beehive”.
At that point voters started to think that their government was out of touch. And I
thought – that’s great, that’s it dead!

Three weeks later I get a phone call from the Holmes Show saying, “The Prime
Minister has just announced that as part of the millennium project, the Government is
going to shift the Beehive”. I couldn’t believe it. I went on the Holmes Show with the
Prime Minister. And he was losing. I didn’t have to say much. I just kept saying “put it
on wheels Prime Minister, put it on wheels Prime Minister?” And I just shook my head
like this guy is nuts. I didn’t say anything, I just shook my head – what is wrong with
this guy? And then Prime Minister Bolger, got on the attack and he said “But Rodney
Hide, Rodney Hide, you were part of the committee that recommended this”. And I
was just sitting there and the camera just went on me, and I felt like saying “It was only
a joke Prime Minister – I never thought anyone would be stupid enough to ever take it
seriously.” But I faded at the critical moment and I said something a bit softer than that.
And of course, the public were outraged and that was killed.

But think about it, hundred million. We spend a hundred times that in New Zealand on
welfare a year. A hundred times that, on welfare in a year and what do we buy?
Misery, broken homes, kids not being looked after. Do we see a petition being
generated about that – no.

But these examples illustrate the politician’s propensity to spend money without regard
to the people who earned it. To the people that it actually belongs to, to the people that

Page 7

we represent and who give us this money, presumably for good purpose, not for bad
purpose. And that’s what’s happened around Governments around the world.


The Spending Culture

+ Show Spoiler +
About this time in Parliament I realised I was suffering some sort of cultural shock.
When you do any job, it has a culture and you quickly learn it and you get comfortable
with it. I used to drive trucks a lot as a living and when you are a truck driver, you meet
other truck drivers and you talk about horse power, and tonnage, and the quickest
routes, and who can carry the most the fastest, and you have that smell of diesel about
you. I then went in and taught at university, and the same thing. You talk about
lecturing and about students learning and about research. And that has a culture too.
If you’re in business, it has a culture of profit and loss, of talking about customers, of
talking about what works and here I was in Parliament, and this culture just didn’t fit. It
didn’t make sense, I was out of tune with it. I felt like a person behind enemy lines.
The language was all different. The social mores were all different. Everything was
different about it to what anything I had ever experienced in my life.

And I have discovered what it is. It is because Parliament and politics and
Governments and politicians, we don’t produce anything actually. We don’t produce
anything. And it is very hard to have a culture like that you are familiar with if you’re not
producing something, because that’s what you talk about, that’s your reason for getting
up in the morning, to go there and get in that truck and shift some freight, or teach
some kids, or make some money. Politics? The only thing we do is spend and that is
the culture, it is a spending culture. There’s not a problem out there that a politician
can’t fix by throwing more of your money at it. He knows actually, and she knows, that
it won’t fix it, but it looks good. There you go, throw some money, that will fix it.
Where’s the next one? And people love you when you throw money at them even
though it is their money. Sort of with about 50% siphoned off on the way through. So
it’s a spending culture.

There is another thing about politics that I discovered. I call politics “decision making
without property rights” because no politician or Government Official owns anything.
They don’t have any assets, and they don’t have any liabilities, as we understand the
phrase. So, no one fixes problems. No one says yeah, that’s a problem let’s fix it.
People in this room, you all have assets and liabilities. If your business or your
property is in trouble you have got to put your hand up and fix it, because it is your
responsibility, you know it, and if you don’t fix it, it is going to cost you. In politics we’re
not like that. Ho, here’s a problem, oh good, shove it to that guy, flick, and he gets it
and oh, oh, I don’t want this problem, so flick. And then finally what we do is we just
shuffle problems into the future for someone else to deal with and then we think that’s a
solution. And you can see problems being shunted around in sound bites on TV.

It is nothing like the capitalist process where there is an owner, where there is an
asset, where future income streams are being capitalised in the value of that asset and
you have to respond to the costs and benefits of that stream and do something about
them. Nothing like that exists in politics. It is all fluff and no substance and that’s why,
that’s why, we look through the veil of politics and feel so deeply frustrated and so
irritated because we know there are real problems in education and health and in
welfare and with Government spending and with bureaucrats out of control, but no-one
in Government will put their hand up and say, “yes, I am responsible for that, watch me,
I’ll fix it”. Never. They shift the problem on to someone else.

Page 8


Politicians’ Life Blood

+ Show Spoiler +
And of course, the root cause of all of this is tax. Tax, it is the lifeblood of the political
process. It’s our ability to get money out of peoples’ pay packets, out of their weekly
budgets, out of the petrol that they buy, out of everything that they do, that feeds us
and allows us to survive. And the tax laws are hugely complex, no one can follow
them. I recently had the New Zealand Inland Revenue Commissioner Graham Holland
before a select committee. And I said, “Commissioner, do you understand the tax laws
of New Zealand”. He just looked at me. Then the committee chairman beat me up and
said, “Oh, you can’t abuse the Commissioner of Inland Revenue like that”. “I wasn’t
abusing him, I was just interested, does he understand the law that here we are
passing”. He doesn’t. The Commissioner of Inland Revenue doesn’t understand all
the tax laws. The dairy owner has to. The plumber has to. Every property developer
has to. But no one can, no-one can sit in this room and feel comfortable that they’ve
obeyed the tax laws of New Zealand because you don’t understand them and take it
from me folks, I sit on the Committee and in the Parliament that passes these things,
and we don’t understand them. We do not understand the tax laws that pass in New
Zealand, it is the same in Australia, the same in Canada, it’s the same in the United
States.

We had to employ a QC on the select committee to advise us about what the IRD were
telling us about the law because we couldn’t understand it. He got confused. They
ended up concluding that the law, this was on international tax, they concluded that it
wasn't perfect, it had a lot of mistakes in it, but we would pass it anyway and fix it up
next year. Can you imagine running your business like that. And we’re running the
country. We not only spend money ladies and gentlemen, we make laws just to put
you in the right box.

Tell you one law we passed, it was under urgency. Urgency is a big deal. It goes into
urgency, important things to be done. You sit there all hours and everyone fights and
scraps – I love it. And came up under urgency and people may have missed this. But
we passed in 1997, under urgency, the Medical Auxiliary (Podiatrists) Amendment Bill.
Now podiatrists are foot doctors, you know they blow your corns off and cut your
toenails. And we had a very serious problem confronting New Zealand. Because, we
have a Podiatrists’ Board just to check that the people that are doing podiatry are
kosher, and they have a set of exams and a certificate that you get and in 1984 the
Government changes the rules and said, because we had immigrant podiatrists, and
they just used to come in and they would satisfy the board and they would get a
certificate too. But the Government in 1984 changed the rules and said, that they
could no longer just come in willy nilly, but they have to sit the New Zealand exam for
podiatry in order to be duly qualified. That was great, that passed in 1984. However,
no one told the Podiatrists’ Board. And of course, you remember the 1984-1996
period, podiatrists were just sweeping into New Zealand from overseas and the
Podiatrists’ Board was giving them their certificates if they said they said that they had
been taught at Harvard or somewhere. But this was illegal. And so what we had to do
was pass under urgency, retrospective legislation that would enable eleven immigrant
podiatrists to practice here in New Zealand like they had been doing for several years.
I don’t know about you folks but I find it sort of scary that we have a Podiatrists’ Board.
I find it sort of scary that you need a licence to cut someone’s toenails for a fee. I find it
sort of scary that Parliament had to pass a law to make it legal for eleven immigrant
podiatrists to practice here. What I find really scary was that our Parliament spent one
hour and forty minutes debating it.

At the time, our schools are in crisis, kids are going there spending years and years of
school not getting educated, our health system is a mess, 120,000 people queued up

Page 9

in agony — paid tax all their life, can’t get treated. Pension schemes busted with a
bang, it’s bankrupt. We had the downturn that was winding down the economy,
provincial New Zealand was bleeding, but don’t worry, we’re in Parliament under
urgency debating for one hour and forty minutes the Medical Auxiliary (Podiatrists)
Amendment Bill to make sure eleven podiatrists weren’t here acting illegally. If you
ever wonder why politicians are so boring, you try talking for ten minutes about
podiatry. And about the effect illegal immigrants practising podiatry has on the social
fabric of New Zealand. I watched it done.

So we pass laws, we pass laws, we pass tax laws and the tax laws that we have in
New Zealand, we don’t understand them, thousands and thousands of pages of these,
we’re supposed comply, God knows how you can. And think about the power that they
shift across to the tax department. The awesome powers and the comparison is to the
Police.


IRD Powers

+ Show Spoiler +
In New Zealand, the IRD can bust into your business, into your dairy, into your
plumbing shop, into your farm, they can bust into it, any hour of the day and they don’t
need a warrant. The Police can’t do that. The Police might be chasing Son of Sam
and they’ve got to get a warrant. They might be chasing the worst rapist in history and
they’ve got to get a warrant, and they are trained. But these IRD officers with very little
training, who are up against, you know, really scary people like plumbers and
paperhangers, people that work for a living. They have powers to enter your business
at the drop of a hat and do a search. Your Parliament gave that department those
powers. They have powers to require you to answer every question that they put to
you. If you are scumbag murderer or rapist, you can say, “I’m not answering that
question”, but if you are a dairy owner you had better, and it’s the IRD you have to,
because if you don’t they can hit you with a fine for $25,000.

Are we starting to talk like our values are upside down. That we have rights to protect
the criminal class but the productive class, the working class, the people that create all
the wealth have no rights when confronted with the tax department after its pound of
flesh and pint of blood.

They have the ability to assert that you owe a debt and it is your job to prove that you
don’t. Nowhere else in our legal processes do we have that. We believe that we
have a free society, a capitalist society, a democracy where you’re innocent until you
are proven guilty. That’s true if you’re a murderer, that’s true if you’re a rapist, that’s
true if you’re a burglar, that’s true if you’re a thug, but if you’re a taxpayer, it’s not true.
You are guilty until you prove that you are innocent. So the department can allege a
million-dollar debt and you have to prove that you don’t owe it. How can you prove that
you don’t owe it, when you don’t even know what it’s about? And they’re not required
by law to tell you what it’s about. They can just assert it. Not only can they assert a
debt against you, but even before it goes to Court you have to cough up half. Can you
imagine that? You’re paying for your lawyers, you’re paying for your accountants,
you’ve got this big debt, you have to pay half even before your case is heard. This is
an outrage. And these tax laws are having a huge consequence. There are two
problems with tax. It’s too much, and the laws are too vicious.

The IRD made a mistake a few years back. They brought in some overseas
economists to study the economic impact of tax in New Zealand. They discovered,
contrary to what the IRD thought would happen, that tax is way too high. The IRD
believe their propaganda and believe that tax is great and it’s the price we pay for
civilisation. These economists searching in New Zealand said that if we’d had the tax
take of 20% or 25%, which is still too high, but which is what we had post-war through

Page 10

the fifties and sixties, if we had that tax take in New Zealand today, rather than 35%,
that New Zealand would be 50% wealthier. Can you imagine that? Fifty percent
wealthier. It’s not just what they have taken off us that we lose, it is all the lost
opportunities, it’s all the investments, it’s all the businesses, it’s all the jobs that would
have been, if the tax rate hadn’t been so high. Imagine how much richer you would
have been if we hadn’t have had tax for all those years?

You think the department and the politicians would get that report and say, “Oh, this is
great news! We know how to get the economy moving. We know how to create jobs”.
No. They suppressed it. They wouldn’t release it. It took me over twelve months
hounding the department with official information requests as an MP to get my hands
on those documents. This research was paid for with our money. And still they
wouldn’t cough it up, and so tax is having a tremendous impact on our economy, on
our businesses, on our jobs at an economic level but at a personal level too, because
how can you operate in business confidently, concentrating on your customer,
concentrating on your costs when you’ve got this band of thugs, state-sanctioned
thugs, ready to pounce? How can you operate with confidence and with joy as you go
about your job?

I want to end with just one story. There is a guy in New Zealand, he lived on the Kapiti
coast. Ian Lee Mutton was his name. He was a good guy. Father, husband, two little
kiddies, and he was a good sportsman, and he worked and he liked a wee drink and
having fun. And his business was, and he worked hard at it, was putting in air
conditioning units in new office towers. And he had a dream, he dreamt that rather
than working for other people he could go out into business on his own. And he did
that. And he was good at the work, but he was a lousy businessman. He quoted too
low, some of his people didn’t pay, and the costs got out of control. But he persevered
and he learnt. He got to the end of one year 1992, and he owed $6,000 terminal tax.
No big deal, knew he owed it, was going to pay it.

He then had an accident off a ladder at work and broke his ankle and couldn’t work.
He had been assessed for this tax, and the demands kept coming. His ACC, such as it
is for self-employed didn’t come, even though he had been paying it all these years.
So he and his family were suffering no end. Here he was hobbling around on crutches.
He went repeatedly to the IRD with his wife saying, “Look, I can’t pay this”. They
wouldn’t listen to him. He had to pay, they’re the rules. He says, “I’m not working”,
doesn’t matter. He gets back to work, someone smashes his utility up and he has to
spend more money so he can keep working. He pays his tax that year, he pays his tax
the next year, he pays in his next year more tax than he has ever paid in his life as a
percentage. And he gets to the end of that year, and he owes more than he did at the
start. Because the penalties and the interest are just overwhelming him. His
accountant and his business manager go in to see the IRD begging them to give this
guy some relief. He’s working hard, here’s all his accounts, give him some relief. They
wouldn’t.

His marriage split up, his wife couldn’t take the pressure. He was behaving strangely,
the pressure was huge on him. That bills were just being generated by that horrible
computer that the IRD has and they would be arriving at his house in envelopes and in
the finish, he couldn’t even open them, he just threw them in the bin. In his final year,
he went on booze a bit. He didn’t pay any tax, so it mounted, and the debt got to
$45,000. He then snapped out of it, he stopped the drinking, he got back with his wife,
he realised that he had to make his business go bankrupt, stop his dreams, stop his
aspirations. And he got a job working in Queenstown, putting in air conditioning units
working for someone else. All he had in the world at that point was a utility worth
$5,000 and $1,100 worth of tools.

Page 11

On the day that he was to leave to Queenstown to take up his new job, the IRD turned
up. They wanted the ute, and the tools, to offset the debt. They were going to take the
very means that he had to make a living. He drove the utility up to the Otaki Gorge and
killed himself. He penned before he died a message to the IRD, saying that “you are
responsible for this, that you have taken everything that I ever had, that I now leave this
world like I came into it, with nothing, but that I beat you, because you no longer going
to get any more out of me,” and he signed, the last thing he did on earth, was to sign
that note, “one happy man”.

The IRD got that note, they turned up at the widow’s house wanting the ute and the
tools. She then, ladies and gentlemen, goes outside and stands on the porch and sees
her twelve-year-old son hanging dead from the tree. He couldn’t take his father’s
death. The IRD have never apologised, never said they have done wrong.

These laws, ladies and gentlemen, they are not just costing us jobs, they’re not just
putting us in fear, but they’re costing good people their lives. That’s what our tax laws
are doing in this country.

And do you know, the basic amount of money that the IRD were chasing Ian Lee
Mutton for wouldn’t pay for one MP’s taxi for a year. Are our values upside down or
not?

I want to leave you with this message. I’m a politician, I’m in Parliament, we have the
guns. We have the flash cars and we have the flags. It’s great driving in a car with
flags. But we have no moral authority. Because we produce nothing. We generate
nothing. We are parasitical on the taxpayers of New Zealand. We are parasitical on
Ian Lee Mutton and we are parasitical on each and every person in this room. The
moral authority, ladies and gentlemen, rests with each and everyone of you, because,
you are the producers, you are the workers, you are the creators, not Government, not
politicians, not bureaucrats, you are. And we will make progress in knocking back the
state when each of you, and I think every one in this room have already done this, but
you need to get your neighbours to do it, and your friends to do it, and your family to do
it, say, “We are not asking government for anything” – because when you ask
Government for things, that’s when you lose your moral authority, that’s when they get
it, and they’re only going to take more than they ever give. Don’t ask the Government
for anything. That’s the key to getting taxes down, and the key to getting taxes down is
say, “This is my money, I earnt it, don’t you spend it”, and ladies and gentlemen, I truly
believe we are going to have a revolution around the western world and it’s going to
start in New Zealand. Because we’ve had enough. It is going to start in New Zealand
and spread to Australia and Australia is going to start cutting its taxes. And when
people see what that is doing to our economy and to our people, America and Canada
will follow. Europe will follow. Because the world is a competitive place and if one
country starts dramatically cutting its taxes, all countries will have to follow. And let’s
hope and pray and work towards that day. Because ladies and gentlemen, when we
have that day, we will have more love, we will have more trade, and we will have less
gun. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is something worth working towards.

ENDS


thats an interesting read and some great anecdotal evidence on why government needs to be less wasteful and vastly more efficient. hell you wont get anybody from either end of the political spectrum fighting you on that one. Corruption, human greed and yes...stupidity will always be a thorn in the side of any democracy.

HOWEVER i fail to see how this has anything to do with the the empirical evidence provided by the American economy in the last 10 years that shows tax cuts and trickle down economics are a complete and abject failure.


my remark to begin with was said flippantly and half jokingly btw.


If you liked that this one's pretty good too:

http://uctv.canterbury.ac.nz/modules/journal/entry.php?space_key=1&module_key=70&post_key=64&journal_user_key=0
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 12:32 GMT
#114
On August 21 2011 21:30 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 20:30 aFganFlyTrap wrote:
On August 21 2011 15:55 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 21 2011 15:41 aFganFlyTrap wrote:
tax cuts fuel the economy and encourage investment? oh like over in America? gotcha!


Here you go:

+ Show Spoiler +
Rodney Hide MP
Finance Spokesman
http://www.act.org.nz
Office: +64 4 4706630; Mobile: +64 25 772 385
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: 22 FEBRUARY 2000
For more information contact:
Trish Sherson: Office: +64 4 4706644; Mobile: +64 25 570 803
tricia.sherson@parliament.govt.nz
SPEECH
New Zealand On $100 Million A Day
Rodney Hide MP
January 1999


Love, Trade and Guns

+ Show Spoiler +
Aristotle observed that man is a social animal. And that’s certainly true. We spend so
much of our lives, most of our lives, very little of our lives doing anything other than
doing things for other people and having them do things for us. That’s how we live.
And when you think about it for a moment there are three ways and only three ways to
get another human being to do something for you.

The first, and I believe it’s the most powerful, is love. We do things for our wives, for
our husbands, for our children – and likewise they do things for us – simply because
they love us. And we can ask them to do things for us. And they will do them no
questions asked. We have close friends that will do things for us if we just ask them.
Love is an amazingly powerful force for people doing things for other people.

The incredible thing about love is that it quickly attenuates. It doesn’t reach down the
end of the street. So if your neighbour at the farthest end of the street asks you to do
something that your wife or your husband or your children might ask you to do, saying,
“Please, do it for love”, you’re unlikely to be moved that way. So love is powerful but
it’s just for a few people in our lives – our family and our closest friends.

The other great motivator – the other way of getting people to do things for us – is
through trade. “You do this for me and I will give you this. You give me that and I will
give you this”. And that ladies and gentlemen is the most powerful mechanism for
social organisation right around the world. It’s what we do in our work. Look around
this room and realise that everything here was produced by trade, by the capitalist
spirit, by markets, by business, by the search for profits. That’s the power of trade.
And it’s terribly respectful because it recognises that the other person doesn’t have to
do it. And so it gives them something in return and if they choose to do it, and the price
is right, they will.

There is a third way of getting people to do things for you: force, the gun. You put a
gun to a person’s head and you say “Do this, or I’m going to pull the trigger”. That is
the third way of getting people to do things for you.

Ladies and gentlemen, I am an MP, a Member of Parliament, I’m a politician. Today I
stand before you and I represent the gun. I represent the force in our society to get
things out of people.

Page 2

The gun and force have delivered nothing good in the world. This past century has
been a terribly destructive century. Millions have been killed because of the gun,
because of politicians and because of Government. And that’s what I stand before you
to represent and you people, you folks, you represent the traders. The people who
produce, not through the gun, but by getting out, making a living and trading.
The socialist of all descriptions are interesting because they hate trade. They hate the
thought that you can go to someone and do a deal. They hate that. They hate that
people can make money. They think it is somehow exploitative. And they believe that
everything should be done for love. They want all of society organised like we organise
our families.

And what happens when they try that? They quickly discover everywhere it has been
tried, all through the ages, that love doesn’t stretch far enough, that it doesn’t reach
down the street. And so we end up the totalitarian dictators with the gun at the
peoples’ head and saying if you’re not going to do it for love, you’re going to do it for
this reason because if you don’t do it I’ll pull the trigger.


Government Waste, Government Computers

+ Show Spoiler +
I think it’s fair to say talking to people here and listening to the conversations that you
think that Government wastes money. I think it is fair to say that people sitting in the
audience think that we have too much Government, too much bureaucracy. By the
time I finish here today, you’re going to know it. Because I’m going to take you on an
insider’s journey into politics. What the politicians don’t tell you about how it works and
I’m going to take you right back to the very day that I turned up in Parliament and some
of the things that I’ve learnt about what they’re doing with your money.

ACT campaigned for three years to get into Parliament with as a new “less tax, less
government” party and we achieved 6.2% of the vote and got eight seats. I’d worked
very, very hard, but I was like the dog chasing the car, having arrived in Parliament
following the election I didn't know what to do. No MP gets a job description, you don’t
have a boss and I flew to Wellington and I went in and got an office and I was sitting in
my office wondering, “What does an MP do”? There are MPs that have been there for
twenty years and still ask that question.

And there was a telephone there so I rang all my friends in Wellington. He wasn’t
home.

On my desk was a computer, so I turned it on. This to me symbolised so much. And
the computer starts. I’ve never heard a computer like this before. It goes, ga-ching,
ga-ching, ga-ching, ga-ching. It was like it was just not connecting with the network or
something. And I went out – like all Politicians do – to get a cup of coffee. And have a
rest. And I came back with my cup of coffee, and it’s still going, ga-ching, ga-ching, gaching,
ga-ching, ga-ching. And then after several minutes of this, I got “Windows”.

Amazing. And then I pushed the little icon for “Word”. Ga-ching, ga-ching, ga-ching,
ga-ching, ga-ching, and again, I finished my cup of coffee, and then it appeared
“Word”.

I started to type and it couldn’t keep up. “Hey, this isn’t good enough”, I thought. This
isn’t going to work, you know, I’m in Parliament, I’ve got to have the gear. So I got the
parliamentary directory. There’s a thousand people that work in Parliament in New
Zealand. I should say on the payroll in Parliament. A thousand people on the payroll
and I found there is a man in charge of computers called John Preval and I rung him
up. I said “Hello John, it’s Rodney Hide”. He said, “What can I do for you”. I said, “It’s
about my computer”. He said, “Hang on, I’ll be there in a minute”. And the door

Page 4

everyone just yawned – “Oh yeh, who cares?” But they heard about that $29,170 on
cabs and they said, “this is an outrage”. Because that is an amount that we can feel,
that is an amount that represents something and then you have to ask yourself, “how
could you spend $29,000 on a cab?”

That’s enough to go from Auckland to London and in Jonathan’s case, still have the
odd trip into town for dinner.

Five billion dollars that’s what the Government had just announced. Does anyone
know what a billion dollars looks like? Well, I will tell you. Imagine you have a bundle
of a hundred-dollar notes, it’s a centimetre thick. There’s ten thousand dollars in it.
You slap it down on the table, bang, put another bundle on top, there’s twenty
thousand, another bundle on top, that’s thirty thousand, that’s Jonathan’s taxi bill; it’s
only three centimetres high. Another bundle, forty, fifty, sixty thousand. How high does
a billion reach? It’s a kilometre. It’s a kilometre. We were worried about three
centimetres and the Government had just announced spending of five kilometres high
of hundred dollar notes. That’s how much a billion dollars represents. And so behind
that campaign to clean up the MPs and fund them properly and to reveal their
accounts, was a very serious message that these guys have got to get real with your
money which seems a reasonable ask I would have thought.


Building a Palace and the Beehive on Wheels

+ Show Spoiler +
The next big thing that happened and highlights about Government was the plans to
build the new executive wing. I moved into a new office tower and it is very nice and I
got wind of the fact that they were planning a new executive wing. And, I asked
around, it was going to cost one hundred million dollars, and I have to say I was new to
politics and a hundred million still sounded like a lot of money to me. So I inquired a bit
more and then discovered that we didn’t need this building. So the ACT caucus, eight
MPs met, and convinced ourselves that we didn’t need it and we would organise a
campaign against it.

Richard Prebble dubbed it the Parliamentary Palace, which did more to kill it than
anything else we did. Over 200,000 New Zealanders in three weeks signed a petition
opposing the Palace. That’s 10% of the voting public, against the Palace – mad
Socialists signed it, right wingers signed it, everyone signed it. People like us signed it
too. Sane, reasonable, intelligent people like us – signed that petition. That petition
came into Parliament and we forced a parliamentary inquiry. I forced it into the public
and so the select committee had to sit there and we heard from every interest group
under the sun, from the CTU, that is the Union, the hard core union, to the Business
Roundtable which is the sort of hard core business representative interest group lobby
in New Zealand, and they’re all against the Palace. Submission after submission after
submission said this Palace is nuts. There was only one submission that we got by the
way that was in favour of it and that was from a little union in the construction industry
based in Wellington. And they had some very cogent arguments that the committee
picked up on. We had three days of public hearings and we went back into committee.
Back in the Committee room, the MPs were all in favour of the Palace. “Well,” I said,
“that’s all right. Let’s vote on it. I’m against, who is for?” “Oh, I’m not going to vote,”
they said. I said, “Why not?” “Well, you will just tell everyone how we voted. You are
just going to go into our electorate and leaflet everyone and say, you know, that this
MP and that MP, and we all voted for the Palace.” And I said, “that’s right. Let’s vote.”
Oh, no one wanted to vote. We need to talk about it some more. We met for three

Page 5

further weeks to discuss it. Who is in property development in the audience? OK,
who’s done a hundred million-dollar development, that’s big, one hundred million is big.
I said let’s have a look at the financials. Don McKinnon who is the senior National
party politician on the fiscally-conservative side, he said, “You know it’s not a lot of
money Rodney, what are you beefing about?” It’s a hundred million. I now know what
he was getting at. Politicians in New Zealand spend one hundred million dollars each
and every day – three hundred and sixty five days of the year. A hundred million to a
politician is not a lot of money. But it’s a million New Zealanders paying one hundred
dollars. And a hundred dollars is a lot. And a million people is certainly a lot, and a
hundred million dollars is a lot.

We discovered that there were no financials done. There was no comparison of costs.
I kicked up about this and the financials were duly prepared. I have seen numbers,
ladies and gentlemen, that have been cooked. These weren’t cooked; they were
poached, they were fried, they were scrambled – the benefits were double-counted,
costs were netted out. It was just garbage. Turned out that we would have built this
one hundred million-dollar building for nothing – which is pretty impressive even by
New Zealand Government standards. We had the Minister in front of us and I started
to question him and his officials about these numbers. I got three minutes into it ladies
and gentlemen and the chairman of the select committee said, “Look, we don’t want to
get bogged down in the minutiae do we”, and shut me up. Talking about spending one
hundred million dollars to a politician is getting bogged down in the minutiae. Can you
believe that?

I was brought up a Protestant, I’m not religious now, but my parents were Methodist,
Presbyterian and Anglican, sounds like I had three parents, no, we moved around in
the country. And it has left me with this terrible thing about having fun. I don’t know
what Methodism was like outside of North Canterbury, but in North Canterbury having
fun was sinful and the next thing was spending money. And to this day I still struggle
spending money. I was brought up that you just earned money, I don’t what you did
with it, you just put it in your sock, like my father did, and you just let inflation take care
of it. And so I have this terrible problem about spending money and here I am a
politician spending millions and millions and millions.

I go home most nights with a knot in my stomach just from watching millions and
millions being spent, you can imagine how it feels. And you walk out of Parliament or
you come home to Auckland or you go on the road and you go to the Taranaki or to
Gisborne, or you go anywhere, and you see how hard people work and you see what
ten or twenty or thirty dollars a week means to them and you view and realise the
contempt with which Government and politicians spend that money and it makes me
personally ill. Because it is not our money to spend. It’s your money. And I think you
should spend other people’s money much more carefully than you spend your own. Of
course, we do the reverse.

By the way, politicians enjoy it. Just like the IRD enjoy watching you shiver and shake,
politicians enjoy spending money and I know this for a fact because I was sitting in a
committee once and a politician slumped down beside me and to give him his due, he
was from the left wing party and so I guess by wasting money he was following their
policy line, but he just said “You won’t believe what has just happened in the meeting
we just had”. I said “What’s that?” He said “We just agreed to spend another two
million dollars, imagine that,” and he started laughing and I said “What on?” And he
said, “Buggered if I know. But two million, can you imagine it?” I said, “I might tell
audiences that”, and he shut up.

Page 6

Five months previously he had been an ordinary bloke, toiling away. Got elected to
Parliament, suddenly had access to the back pocket of all the people in this room. And
he had just raided it and spent some dough and it felt good. It felt great. Felt that he
was doing God’s work and improving the Ministry of Women’s Affairs. Because they
work hard, do lots of good work.

But back to this Palace. So we struggled around with it and they didn’t want to vote.
And we got all the plans out and everyone was trying to look for a way forward and I
was obstinate. And what I have decided to do in politics is that I don’t fight all the
battles that one can fight, I just pick one or two, and I just be obstinate on those one or
two. They had all the plans out and you will know that Parliament has this beautiful old
stone building, built in the depression, and then beside that, that ugly Beehive built in
sixties, and someone said, “Isn’t it a shame that the Beehive is right where it is,
because if it wasn’t there we could finish Parliament”. So I said “Well, why don’t we
shift the Beehive.” I said it as a joke. The next week we came back and the officials
had prepared plans for shifting the Beehive. The Beehive weighs 20,000 tons, it’s solid
concrete, it would have been the third largest building in the world ever to have been
shifted. All you need to know about the economics of shifting large buildings is that the
other two were all in the former USSR. I am sitting there with a typical political
dilemma. What do I do now? Everyone is jumping about, saying, “Yeah, we’ll shift the
Beehive, what do you think Rodney?”

I decided on a cunning plan. I said, “That’s a good idea, let’s look at it.” We would
write the report saying, “We would shift the Beehive subject to getting the costs
checked out” and that would get the committee moving, everyone would laugh like you
did about shifting the Beehive and it would kill it, and would kill the Palace with it,
because we recommended against the Palace. So all that happened, the report was
prepared, and New Zealanders, you will remember this, they just roared with horror,
laughter, disgust, that here they had prepared a 200,000 signed petition, they had gone
to the select committee and beaten up the politicians, and the politicians had gone
away and thought about it saying, “The people of New Zealand don’t want to waste
money on a Palace, so we will spend twice that and we will shift the Beehive”.
At that point voters started to think that their government was out of touch. And I
thought – that’s great, that’s it dead!

Three weeks later I get a phone call from the Holmes Show saying, “The Prime
Minister has just announced that as part of the millennium project, the Government is
going to shift the Beehive”. I couldn’t believe it. I went on the Holmes Show with the
Prime Minister. And he was losing. I didn’t have to say much. I just kept saying “put it
on wheels Prime Minister, put it on wheels Prime Minister?” And I just shook my head
like this guy is nuts. I didn’t say anything, I just shook my head – what is wrong with
this guy? And then Prime Minister Bolger, got on the attack and he said “But Rodney
Hide, Rodney Hide, you were part of the committee that recommended this”. And I
was just sitting there and the camera just went on me, and I felt like saying “It was only
a joke Prime Minister – I never thought anyone would be stupid enough to ever take it
seriously.” But I faded at the critical moment and I said something a bit softer than that.
And of course, the public were outraged and that was killed.

But think about it, hundred million. We spend a hundred times that in New Zealand on
welfare a year. A hundred times that, on welfare in a year and what do we buy?
Misery, broken homes, kids not being looked after. Do we see a petition being
generated about that – no.

But these examples illustrate the politician’s propensity to spend money without regard
to the people who earned it. To the people that it actually belongs to, to the people that

Page 7

we represent and who give us this money, presumably for good purpose, not for bad
purpose. And that’s what’s happened around Governments around the world.


The Spending Culture

+ Show Spoiler +
About this time in Parliament I realised I was suffering some sort of cultural shock.
When you do any job, it has a culture and you quickly learn it and you get comfortable
with it. I used to drive trucks a lot as a living and when you are a truck driver, you meet
other truck drivers and you talk about horse power, and tonnage, and the quickest
routes, and who can carry the most the fastest, and you have that smell of diesel about
you. I then went in and taught at university, and the same thing. You talk about
lecturing and about students learning and about research. And that has a culture too.
If you’re in business, it has a culture of profit and loss, of talking about customers, of
talking about what works and here I was in Parliament, and this culture just didn’t fit. It
didn’t make sense, I was out of tune with it. I felt like a person behind enemy lines.
The language was all different. The social mores were all different. Everything was
different about it to what anything I had ever experienced in my life.

And I have discovered what it is. It is because Parliament and politics and
Governments and politicians, we don’t produce anything actually. We don’t produce
anything. And it is very hard to have a culture like that you are familiar with if you’re not
producing something, because that’s what you talk about, that’s your reason for getting
up in the morning, to go there and get in that truck and shift some freight, or teach
some kids, or make some money. Politics? The only thing we do is spend and that is
the culture, it is a spending culture. There’s not a problem out there that a politician
can’t fix by throwing more of your money at it. He knows actually, and she knows, that
it won’t fix it, but it looks good. There you go, throw some money, that will fix it.
Where’s the next one? And people love you when you throw money at them even
though it is their money. Sort of with about 50% siphoned off on the way through. So
it’s a spending culture.

There is another thing about politics that I discovered. I call politics “decision making
without property rights” because no politician or Government Official owns anything.
They don’t have any assets, and they don’t have any liabilities, as we understand the
phrase. So, no one fixes problems. No one says yeah, that’s a problem let’s fix it.
People in this room, you all have assets and liabilities. If your business or your
property is in trouble you have got to put your hand up and fix it, because it is your
responsibility, you know it, and if you don’t fix it, it is going to cost you. In politics we’re
not like that. Ho, here’s a problem, oh good, shove it to that guy, flick, and he gets it
and oh, oh, I don’t want this problem, so flick. And then finally what we do is we just
shuffle problems into the future for someone else to deal with and then we think that’s a
solution. And you can see problems being shunted around in sound bites on TV.

It is nothing like the capitalist process where there is an owner, where there is an
asset, where future income streams are being capitalised in the value of that asset and
you have to respond to the costs and benefits of that stream and do something about
them. Nothing like that exists in politics. It is all fluff and no substance and that’s why,
that’s why, we look through the veil of politics and feel so deeply frustrated and so
irritated because we know there are real problems in education and health and in
welfare and with Government spending and with bureaucrats out of control, but no-one
in Government will put their hand up and say, “yes, I am responsible for that, watch me,
I’ll fix it”. Never. They shift the problem on to someone else.

Page 8


Politicians’ Life Blood

+ Show Spoiler +
And of course, the root cause of all of this is tax. Tax, it is the lifeblood of the political
process. It’s our ability to get money out of peoples’ pay packets, out of their weekly
budgets, out of the petrol that they buy, out of everything that they do, that feeds us
and allows us to survive. And the tax laws are hugely complex, no one can follow
them. I recently had the New Zealand Inland Revenue Commissioner Graham Holland
before a select committee. And I said, “Commissioner, do you understand the tax laws
of New Zealand”. He just looked at me. Then the committee chairman beat me up and
said, “Oh, you can’t abuse the Commissioner of Inland Revenue like that”. “I wasn’t
abusing him, I was just interested, does he understand the law that here we are
passing”. He doesn’t. The Commissioner of Inland Revenue doesn’t understand all
the tax laws. The dairy owner has to. The plumber has to. Every property developer
has to. But no one can, no-one can sit in this room and feel comfortable that they’ve
obeyed the tax laws of New Zealand because you don’t understand them and take it
from me folks, I sit on the Committee and in the Parliament that passes these things,
and we don’t understand them. We do not understand the tax laws that pass in New
Zealand, it is the same in Australia, the same in Canada, it’s the same in the United
States.

We had to employ a QC on the select committee to advise us about what the IRD were
telling us about the law because we couldn’t understand it. He got confused. They
ended up concluding that the law, this was on international tax, they concluded that it
wasn't perfect, it had a lot of mistakes in it, but we would pass it anyway and fix it up
next year. Can you imagine running your business like that. And we’re running the
country. We not only spend money ladies and gentlemen, we make laws just to put
you in the right box.

Tell you one law we passed, it was under urgency. Urgency is a big deal. It goes into
urgency, important things to be done. You sit there all hours and everyone fights and
scraps – I love it. And came up under urgency and people may have missed this. But
we passed in 1997, under urgency, the Medical Auxiliary (Podiatrists) Amendment Bill.
Now podiatrists are foot doctors, you know they blow your corns off and cut your
toenails. And we had a very serious problem confronting New Zealand. Because, we
have a Podiatrists’ Board just to check that the people that are doing podiatry are
kosher, and they have a set of exams and a certificate that you get and in 1984 the
Government changes the rules and said, because we had immigrant podiatrists, and
they just used to come in and they would satisfy the board and they would get a
certificate too. But the Government in 1984 changed the rules and said, that they
could no longer just come in willy nilly, but they have to sit the New Zealand exam for
podiatry in order to be duly qualified. That was great, that passed in 1984. However,
no one told the Podiatrists’ Board. And of course, you remember the 1984-1996
period, podiatrists were just sweeping into New Zealand from overseas and the
Podiatrists’ Board was giving them their certificates if they said they said that they had
been taught at Harvard or somewhere. But this was illegal. And so what we had to do
was pass under urgency, retrospective legislation that would enable eleven immigrant
podiatrists to practice here in New Zealand like they had been doing for several years.
I don’t know about you folks but I find it sort of scary that we have a Podiatrists’ Board.
I find it sort of scary that you need a licence to cut someone’s toenails for a fee. I find it
sort of scary that Parliament had to pass a law to make it legal for eleven immigrant
podiatrists to practice here. What I find really scary was that our Parliament spent one
hour and forty minutes debating it.

At the time, our schools are in crisis, kids are going there spending years and years of
school not getting educated, our health system is a mess, 120,000 people queued up

Page 9

in agony — paid tax all their life, can’t get treated. Pension schemes busted with a
bang, it’s bankrupt. We had the downturn that was winding down the economy,
provincial New Zealand was bleeding, but don’t worry, we’re in Parliament under
urgency debating for one hour and forty minutes the Medical Auxiliary (Podiatrists)
Amendment Bill to make sure eleven podiatrists weren’t here acting illegally. If you
ever wonder why politicians are so boring, you try talking for ten minutes about
podiatry. And about the effect illegal immigrants practising podiatry has on the social
fabric of New Zealand. I watched it done.

So we pass laws, we pass laws, we pass tax laws and the tax laws that we have in
New Zealand, we don’t understand them, thousands and thousands of pages of these,
we’re supposed comply, God knows how you can. And think about the power that they
shift across to the tax department. The awesome powers and the comparison is to the
Police.


IRD Powers

+ Show Spoiler +
In New Zealand, the IRD can bust into your business, into your dairy, into your
plumbing shop, into your farm, they can bust into it, any hour of the day and they don’t
need a warrant. The Police can’t do that. The Police might be chasing Son of Sam
and they’ve got to get a warrant. They might be chasing the worst rapist in history and
they’ve got to get a warrant, and they are trained. But these IRD officers with very little
training, who are up against, you know, really scary people like plumbers and
paperhangers, people that work for a living. They have powers to enter your business
at the drop of a hat and do a search. Your Parliament gave that department those
powers. They have powers to require you to answer every question that they put to
you. If you are scumbag murderer or rapist, you can say, “I’m not answering that
question”, but if you are a dairy owner you had better, and it’s the IRD you have to,
because if you don’t they can hit you with a fine for $25,000.

Are we starting to talk like our values are upside down. That we have rights to protect
the criminal class but the productive class, the working class, the people that create all
the wealth have no rights when confronted with the tax department after its pound of
flesh and pint of blood.

They have the ability to assert that you owe a debt and it is your job to prove that you
don’t. Nowhere else in our legal processes do we have that. We believe that we
have a free society, a capitalist society, a democracy where you’re innocent until you
are proven guilty. That’s true if you’re a murderer, that’s true if you’re a rapist, that’s
true if you’re a burglar, that’s true if you’re a thug, but if you’re a taxpayer, it’s not true.
You are guilty until you prove that you are innocent. So the department can allege a
million-dollar debt and you have to prove that you don’t owe it. How can you prove that
you don’t owe it, when you don’t even know what it’s about? And they’re not required
by law to tell you what it’s about. They can just assert it. Not only can they assert a
debt against you, but even before it goes to Court you have to cough up half. Can you
imagine that? You’re paying for your lawyers, you’re paying for your accountants,
you’ve got this big debt, you have to pay half even before your case is heard. This is
an outrage. And these tax laws are having a huge consequence. There are two
problems with tax. It’s too much, and the laws are too vicious.

The IRD made a mistake a few years back. They brought in some overseas
economists to study the economic impact of tax in New Zealand. They discovered,
contrary to what the IRD thought would happen, that tax is way too high. The IRD
believe their propaganda and believe that tax is great and it’s the price we pay for
civilisation. These economists searching in New Zealand said that if we’d had the tax
take of 20% or 25%, which is still too high, but which is what we had post-war through

Page 10

the fifties and sixties, if we had that tax take in New Zealand today, rather than 35%,
that New Zealand would be 50% wealthier. Can you imagine that? Fifty percent
wealthier. It’s not just what they have taken off us that we lose, it is all the lost
opportunities, it’s all the investments, it’s all the businesses, it’s all the jobs that would
have been, if the tax rate hadn’t been so high. Imagine how much richer you would
have been if we hadn’t have had tax for all those years?

You think the department and the politicians would get that report and say, “Oh, this is
great news! We know how to get the economy moving. We know how to create jobs”.
No. They suppressed it. They wouldn’t release it. It took me over twelve months
hounding the department with official information requests as an MP to get my hands
on those documents. This research was paid for with our money. And still they
wouldn’t cough it up, and so tax is having a tremendous impact on our economy, on
our businesses, on our jobs at an economic level but at a personal level too, because
how can you operate in business confidently, concentrating on your customer,
concentrating on your costs when you’ve got this band of thugs, state-sanctioned
thugs, ready to pounce? How can you operate with confidence and with joy as you go
about your job?

I want to end with just one story. There is a guy in New Zealand, he lived on the Kapiti
coast. Ian Lee Mutton was his name. He was a good guy. Father, husband, two little
kiddies, and he was a good sportsman, and he worked and he liked a wee drink and
having fun. And his business was, and he worked hard at it, was putting in air
conditioning units in new office towers. And he had a dream, he dreamt that rather
than working for other people he could go out into business on his own. And he did
that. And he was good at the work, but he was a lousy businessman. He quoted too
low, some of his people didn’t pay, and the costs got out of control. But he persevered
and he learnt. He got to the end of one year 1992, and he owed $6,000 terminal tax.
No big deal, knew he owed it, was going to pay it.

He then had an accident off a ladder at work and broke his ankle and couldn’t work.
He had been assessed for this tax, and the demands kept coming. His ACC, such as it
is for self-employed didn’t come, even though he had been paying it all these years.
So he and his family were suffering no end. Here he was hobbling around on crutches.
He went repeatedly to the IRD with his wife saying, “Look, I can’t pay this”. They
wouldn’t listen to him. He had to pay, they’re the rules. He says, “I’m not working”,
doesn’t matter. He gets back to work, someone smashes his utility up and he has to
spend more money so he can keep working. He pays his tax that year, he pays his tax
the next year, he pays in his next year more tax than he has ever paid in his life as a
percentage. And he gets to the end of that year, and he owes more than he did at the
start. Because the penalties and the interest are just overwhelming him. His
accountant and his business manager go in to see the IRD begging them to give this
guy some relief. He’s working hard, here’s all his accounts, give him some relief. They
wouldn’t.

His marriage split up, his wife couldn’t take the pressure. He was behaving strangely,
the pressure was huge on him. That bills were just being generated by that horrible
computer that the IRD has and they would be arriving at his house in envelopes and in
the finish, he couldn’t even open them, he just threw them in the bin. In his final year,
he went on booze a bit. He didn’t pay any tax, so it mounted, and the debt got to
$45,000. He then snapped out of it, he stopped the drinking, he got back with his wife,
he realised that he had to make his business go bankrupt, stop his dreams, stop his
aspirations. And he got a job working in Queenstown, putting in air conditioning units
working for someone else. All he had in the world at that point was a utility worth
$5,000 and $1,100 worth of tools.

Page 11

On the day that he was to leave to Queenstown to take up his new job, the IRD turned
up. They wanted the ute, and the tools, to offset the debt. They were going to take the
very means that he had to make a living. He drove the utility up to the Otaki Gorge and
killed himself. He penned before he died a message to the IRD, saying that “you are
responsible for this, that you have taken everything that I ever had, that I now leave this
world like I came into it, with nothing, but that I beat you, because you no longer going
to get any more out of me,” and he signed, the last thing he did on earth, was to sign
that note, “one happy man”.

The IRD got that note, they turned up at the widow’s house wanting the ute and the
tools. She then, ladies and gentlemen, goes outside and stands on the porch and sees
her twelve-year-old son hanging dead from the tree. He couldn’t take his father’s
death. The IRD have never apologised, never said they have done wrong.

These laws, ladies and gentlemen, they are not just costing us jobs, they’re not just
putting us in fear, but they’re costing good people their lives. That’s what our tax laws
are doing in this country.

And do you know, the basic amount of money that the IRD were chasing Ian Lee
Mutton for wouldn’t pay for one MP’s taxi for a year. Are our values upside down or
not?

I want to leave you with this message. I’m a politician, I’m in Parliament, we have the
guns. We have the flash cars and we have the flags. It’s great driving in a car with
flags. But we have no moral authority. Because we produce nothing. We generate
nothing. We are parasitical on the taxpayers of New Zealand. We are parasitical on
Ian Lee Mutton and we are parasitical on each and every person in this room. The
moral authority, ladies and gentlemen, rests with each and everyone of you, because,
you are the producers, you are the workers, you are the creators, not Government, not
politicians, not bureaucrats, you are. And we will make progress in knocking back the
state when each of you, and I think every one in this room have already done this, but
you need to get your neighbours to do it, and your friends to do it, and your family to do
it, say, “We are not asking government for anything” – because when you ask
Government for things, that’s when you lose your moral authority, that’s when they get
it, and they’re only going to take more than they ever give. Don’t ask the Government
for anything. That’s the key to getting taxes down, and the key to getting taxes down is
say, “This is my money, I earnt it, don’t you spend it”, and ladies and gentlemen, I truly
believe we are going to have a revolution around the western world and it’s going to
start in New Zealand. Because we’ve had enough. It is going to start in New Zealand
and spread to Australia and Australia is going to start cutting its taxes. And when
people see what that is doing to our economy and to our people, America and Canada
will follow. Europe will follow. Because the world is a competitive place and if one
country starts dramatically cutting its taxes, all countries will have to follow. And let’s
hope and pray and work towards that day. Because ladies and gentlemen, when we
have that day, we will have more love, we will have more trade, and we will have less
gun. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is something worth working towards.

ENDS


thats an interesting read and some great anecdotal evidence on why government needs to be less wasteful and vastly more efficient. hell you wont get anybody from either end of the political spectrum fighting you on that one. Corruption, human greed and yes...stupidity will always be a thorn in the side of any democracy.

HOWEVER i fail to see how this has anything to do with the the empirical evidence provided by the American economy in the last 10 years that shows tax cuts and trickle down economics are a complete and abject failure.


my remark to begin with was said flippantly and half jokingly btw.


If you liked that this one's pretty good too:

http://uctv.canterbury.ac.nz/modules/journal/entry.php?space_key=1&module_key=70&post_key=64&journal_user_key=0


And regarding your comment on America... American has been run by both Republicans and Democrats and it is arguable that it was Left-wing policies that caused the initial recession, rather than capitalism:

+ Show Spoiler +
An Open Letter to my Friends on the Left
Steven Horwitz
Department of Economics
St. Lawrence University
sghorwitz@stlawu.edu

September 28, 2008

My friends,

In the last week or two, I have heard frequently from you that the current financial mess has been caused by the failures of free markets and deregulation. I have heard from you that the lust after profits, any profits, that is central to free markets is at the core of our problems. And I have heard from you that only significant government intervention into financial markets can cure these problems, perhaps once and for all. I ask of you for the next few minutes to, in the words of Oliver Cromwell, consider that you may be mistaken. Consider that both the diagnosis and the cure might be equally mistaken.

Consider instead that the problems of this mess were caused by the very kinds of government regulation that you now propose. Consider instead that effects of the profit motive that you decry depend upon the incentives that institutions, regulations, and policies create, which in this case led profit-seekers to do great damage. Consider instead that the regulations that may have been the cause were supported by, as they have often been throughout US history, the very firms being regulated, mostly because they worked to said firms' benefit, even as they screwed the rest of us. Consider all of this as you ask for more of the same in the name of fixing the problem. And finally, consider why you would ever imagine that those with wealth and power wouldn't rig a new regulatory process in their favor.

One of the biggest confusions in the current mess is the claim that it is the result of greed. The problem with that explanation is that greed is always a feature of human interaction. It always has been. Why, all of a sudden, has greed produced so much harm? And why only in one sector of the economy? After all, isn't there plenty of greed elsewhere? Firms are indeed profit seekers. And they will seek after profit where the institutional incentives are such that profit is available. In a free market, firms profit by providing the goods that consumers want at prices they are willing to pay. (My friends, don't stop reading there even if you disagree - now you know how I feel when you claim this mess is a failure of free markets - at least finish this paragraph.) However, regulations and policies and even the rhetoric of powerful political actors can change the incentives to profit. Regulations can make it harder for firms to minimize their risk by requiring that they make loans to marginal borrowers. Government institutions can encourage banks to take on extra risk by offering an implicit government guarantee if those risks fail. Policies can direct self-interest into activities that only serve corporate profits, not the public.

Many of you have rightly criticized the ethanol mandate, which made it profitable for corn growers to switch from growing corn for food to corn for fuel, leading to higher food prices worldwide. What's interesting is that you rightly blamed the policy and did not blame greed and the profit motive! The current financial mess is precisely analogous.

No free market economist thinks "greed is always good." What we think is good are institutions that play to the self-interest of private actors by rewarding them for serving the public, not just themselves. We believe that's what genuinely free markets do. Market exchanges are mutually beneficial. When the law messes up by either poorly defining the rules of the game or trying to override them through regulation, self-interested behavior is no longer economically mutually beneficial. The private sector then profits by serving narrow political ends rather than serving the public. In such cases, greed leads to bad consequences. But it's bad not because it's greed/self-interest rather because the institutional context within which it operates channels self-interest in socially unproductive ways.

This, my friends, is exactly what has brought us to the mess we are now in.

To call the housing and credit crisis a failure of the free market or the product of unregulated greed is to overlook the myriad government regulations, policies, and political pronouncements that have both reduced the "freedom" of this market and channeled self-interest in ways that have produced disastrous consequences, both intended and unintended. Let me briefly recap goverment's starring role in our little drama.

For starters, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are "government sponsored enterprises". Though technically privately owned, they have particular privileges granted by the government, they are overseen by Congress, and, most importantly, they have operated with a clear promise that if they failed, they would be bailed out. Hardly a "free market." All the players in the mortgage market knew this from early on. In the early 1990s, Congress eased Fannie and Freddie's lending requirements (to 1/4th the capital required by regular commercial banks) so as to increase their ability to lend to poor areas. Congress also created a regulatory agency to oversee them, but this agency also had to reapply to Congress for its budget each year (no other financial regulator must do so), assuring that it would tell Congress exactly what it wanted to hear: "things are fine." In 1995, Fannie and Freddie were given permission to enter the subprime market and regulators began to crack down on banks who were not lending enough to distressed areas. Several attempts were made to rein in Fannie and Freddie, but Congress didn't have the votes to do so, especially with both organizations making significant campaign contributions to members of both parties. Even the New York Times as far back as 1999 saw exactly what might happen thanks to this very unfree market, warning of a need to bailout Fannie and Freddie if the housing market dropped.

Complicating matters further was the 1994 renewal/revision of the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977. The CRA requires banks to to make a certain percentage of their loans within their local communities, especially when those communities are economically disadvantaged. In addition, Congress explicitly directed Fannie and Freddie to expand their lending to borrowers with marginal credit as a way of expanding homeownership. What all of these did together was to create an enormous profit and political incentives for banks and Fannie and Freddie to lend more to riskier low-income borrowers. However well-intentioned the attempts were to extend homeownership to more Americans, forcing banks to do so and artificially lowering the costs of doing so are a huge part of the problem we now find ourselves in.

At the same time, home prices were rising making those who had taken on large mortgages with small down payments feel as though they could handle them and inspiring a whole variety of new mortagage instruments. What's interesting is that the rise in prices affected most strongly cities with stricter land-use regulations, which also explains the fact that not every city was affected to the same degree by the rising home values. These regulations prevented certain kinds of land from being used for homes, pushing the rising demand for housing (fueled by the considerations above) into a slowly responding supply of land. The result was rapidly rising prices. In those areas with less stringent land-use regulations, the housing price boom's effect was much smaller. Again, it was regulation, not free markets, that drove the search for profits and was a key contributor to the rising home prices that fueled the lending spree.

While all of this was happpening, the Federal Reserve, nominally private but granted enormous monopoly privileges by government, was pumping in the credit and driving interest rates lower and lower. This influx of credit further fueled the borrowing binge. With plenty of funds available, thanks to your friendly monopoly central bank (hardly the free market at work), banks could afford to continue to lend riskier and riskier.

The final chapter of the story is that in 2004 and 2005, following the accounting scandals at Freddie, both Freddie and Fannie paid penance to Congress by agreeing to expand their lending to low-income customers. Both agreed to acquire greater amounts of subprime and Alt-A loans, sending the green light to banks to originate them. From 2004 2003 [corrected on 10/19/08] to 2006, the percentage of loans in those riskier categories grew from 8% to 20% of all US mortgage originations. And the quality of these loans were dropping too: downpayments were getting progressively smaller and more and more loans carried low starter interest rates that would adjust upward later on. The banks were taking on riskier borrowers, but knew they had a guaranteed buyer for those loans in Fannie and Freddie, back, of course, by us taxpayers. Yes, banks were "greedy" for new customers and riskier loans, but they were responding to incentives created by well-intentioned but misguided government interventions. It is these interventions that are ultimately responsible for the risky loans gone bad that are at the center of the current crisis, not the "free market."

The current mess is thus clearly shot through and through with government meddling with free markets, from the Fed-provided fuel to the CRA and land-use regulations to Fannie and Freddie creating an artificial market for risky mortgages in order to meet Congress's demands for more home-ownership opportunities for low-income families. Thanks to that intervention, many of those families have not only lost their homes, but also the savings they could have held onto for a few more years and perhaps used to acquire a less risky mortgage on a cheaper house. All of these interventions into the market created the incentive and the means for banks to profit by originating loans that never would have taken place in a genuinely free market.

It is worth noting that these regulations, policies, and interventions were often gladly supported by the private interests involved. Fannie and Freddie made billions while home prices rose, and their CEOs got paid lavishly. The same was true of the various banks and other mortgage market intermediaries who helped spread and price the risk that was in play, including those who developed all kinds of fancy new financial instruments all designed to deal with the heightened risk of default the intervention brought with it. This was a wonderful game they were playing and the financial markets were happy to have Fannie and Freddie as voracious buyers of their risky loans, knowing that US taxpayer dollars were always there if needed. The history of business regulation in the US is the history of firms using regulation for their own purposes, regardless of the public interest patina over the top of them. This is precisely what happened in the housing market. And it's also why calls for more regulation and more intervention are so misguided: they have failed before and will fail again because those with the profits on the line are the ones who have the resources and access to power to ensure that the game is rigged in their favor.

I know, my friends, that you are concerned about corporate power. So am I. So are many of my free-market economist colleagues. We simply believe, and we think history is on our side, that the best check against corporate power is the competitve marketplace and the power of the consumer dollar (framed, of course, by legal prohibitions on force and fraud). Competition plays mean, nasty corporations off against each other in a contest to serve us. Yes, they still have power, but its negative effects are lessened. It is when corporations can use the state to rig the rules in their favor that the negative effects of their power become magnified, precisely because it has the force of the state behind it. The current mess shows this as well as anything ever has, once you realize just what a large role the state played. If you really want to reduce the power of corporations, don't give them access to the state by expanding the state's regulatory powers. That's precisely what they want, as the current battle over the $700 billion booty amply demonstrates.

This is why so many of us committed to free markets oppose the bailout. It is yet another example of the long history of the private sector attempting to enrich itself via the state. When it does so, there are no benefits to the rest of us, unlike what happens when firms try to get rich in a competitive market. Moreover, these same firms benefited enormously from the regulatory interventions they supported and that harmed so many of us. The eventual bursting of the bubble and their subsequent losses are, to many of us, their just desserts for rigging the game and eventually getting caught. To reward them again for their rigging of the game is not just morally unconscionable, it is very bad econonmic policy, given that it sends a message to other would-be riggers that they too will get rewarded for wreaking havoc on the US economy. There will be short-term pain if we don't bailout these firms, but that is the hangover price we pay for 15 years or more of binge lending. The proposed bailout cannot prevent the pain of the hangover; it can only conceal it by shifting and dispersing it among the taxpayers and an economy weakened by the borrowing, taxing, and/or inflation needed to pay for that $700 billion. Better we should take our short-term pain straight up and clean out the mistakes of our binge and then get back to the business of free markets without creating an unchecked Executive branch monstrosity trying to "save" those who profited most from the binge and harming innocent taxpayers in the process.

What I ask of you my friends on the left is to not only continue to work with us to oppose this or any similar bailout, but to consider carefully whether you really want to entrust the same entity who is the predominant cause of this crisis with the power to attempt to cure it. New regulatory powers may look like the solution, but that's what people said when the CRA was passed, or when Fannie and Freddie were given new mandates. And the very firms who are going to be regulated will be first in line to determine how those regulations get written and enforced. You can bet which way that game is going to get rigged.

I know you are tempted to think that the problems with these regulations are the fault of the individuals doing the regulating. If only, you think, Obama can win and we can clean out the corrupt Republicans and put ethical, well-meaning folks in place. Think again. For one thing, almost every government intervention at the root of this crisis took place with a Democratic president or a Democratic-controlled Congress in place. Even when the Republicans controlled Congress, President Clinton worked around it to change the rules to allow Fannie and Freddie into the higher-risk loan market. My point here is not to pin the blame for the current crisis on the Democrats. That blame goes around equally. My point is that hoping that having the "right people" in power will avoid these problems is both naive and historically blind. As much as corporate interests were relevant, they were aided and abetted, if unintentionally, by well-meaning attempts by basically good people to do good things.The problem is that there were a large number of undesirable unintended consequences, most of which were predictable and predicted. It doesn't matter which party is captaining the ship: regulations come with unintended consequences and will always tend to be captured by the private interests with the most at stake. And history is full of cases where those with a moral or ideological agenda find themselves in political fellowship with those whose material interests are on the line, even if the two groups are usually on opposite sides. This is the famous "Baptists and Bootleggers" phenomenon.

If you've made it this far, I am most grateful. Whether or not you accept the whole argument I've laid out here, I do ask one thing of you: the story I told at the start of the role of government intervention in this mess is true, whatever your grander conclusions about the causes and cures are. Even if you don't buy my argument that more regulation isn't the cure, to blame this mess on "the free market" should now strike you as an obvious falsehood and I would hope, in the spirit of fair play, that you would stop making that claim as you speak and write about the ongoing events of the last two weeks. We can disagree in good faith about what to do next, and we can disagree in good faith about the degree to which government intervention caused the problems, but blaming a non-existent free market for a crisis that clearly was to some extent the result of government's extensive interventions in that market is unfair. So if I have persuaded you of nothing else, I hope deeply that I have persuaded you of that.

In the end, all I can ask of you is that you continue to think this through. Explaining this crisis by greed won't get you far as greed, like gravity, is a constant in our world. Explaining it as a failure of free markets faces the obvious truth that these markets were far from free of government. Consider that you may be mistaken. Consider that perhaps government intervention, not free markets, caused profit-seekers to undertake activities that harmed the economy. Consider that government intervention might have led banks and other organizations to take on risks that they never should have. Consider that government central banks are the only organizations capable of fueling this fire with excess credit. And consider that various regulations might have forced banks into bad loans and artificially pushed up home prices. Lastly, consider that private sector actors are quite happy to support such intervention and regulation because it is profitable.

Those of us who support free markets are not your enemies right now. The real problem here is the marriage of corporate and state power. That is the corporatism we both oppose. I ask of you only that you consider whether such corporatism isn't the real cause of this mess and that therefore you reconsider whether free markets are the cause and whether increased regulation is the solution.

Thanks for reading.

Steve
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
DarthXX
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia998 Posts
August 21 2011 12:38 GMT
#115
I don't live in NZ anymore but I am on the electoral roll and I've got to ask, where is NZ First in this poll .

My vote will however go to the Bill&Ben Party, assuming they run again this time.
L3g3nd_
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand10461 Posts
August 21 2011 12:41 GMT
#116
act all the way!
https://twitter.com/#!/IrisAnother
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-21 12:49:30
August 21 2011 12:48 GMT
#117
On August 21 2011 21:38 DarthXX wrote:
I don't live in NZ anymore but I am on the electoral roll and I've got to ask, where is NZ First in this poll .

My vote will however go to the Bill&Ben Party, assuming they run again this time.

I doubt we have many senior citizens on TL
On August 21 2011 21:41 L3g3nd_ wrote:
act all the way!

Post-Hide? With Banks, the man who fucked up Auckland, likely to be reason Act gets any representation at all?
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Dali.
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand689 Posts
August 21 2011 13:08 GMT
#118
Whenever I hear someone say they're voting for ACT, I eagerly await the punch line. It never comes.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 13:11 GMT
#119
On August 21 2011 22:08 Dali. wrote:
Whenever I hear someone say they're voting for ACT, I eagerly await the punch line. It never comes.


I hate people like you, who seem to think their political ideology is the only right one. Even when Brash and Clark debated on TV in 2005 they spoke of their admiration for each other's goals, despite believing in different ways of achieving them.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 13:12 GMT
#120
On August 21 2011 21:48 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 21:38 DarthXX wrote:
I don't live in NZ anymore but I am on the electoral roll and I've got to ask, where is NZ First in this poll .

My vote will however go to the Bill&Ben Party, assuming they run again this time.

I doubt we have many senior citizens on TL
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 21:41 L3g3nd_ wrote:
act all the way!

Post-Hide? With Banks, the man who fucked up Auckland, likely to be reason Act gets any representation at all?


It's about the party policies, not the individuals. ACT MPs have always been consistent in voting for the policy platforms that they campaign on. Unless Banks suddenly no longer believes in lower taxes or less regulation then I don't see why you think he'd be any different to Hide.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Dali.
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand689 Posts
August 21 2011 13:18 GMT
#121
On August 21 2011 22:11 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 22:08 Dali. wrote:
Whenever I hear someone say they're voting for ACT, I eagerly await the punch line. It never comes.


I hate people like you, who seem to think their political ideology is the only right one. Even when Brash and Clark debated on TV in 2005 they spoke of their admiration for each other's goals, despite believing in different ways of achieving them.


You hate me cause I made harmless fun of a cetain group of voters? Would you react so strongly if I was talking about Legalise Cannabis Party? If not, isn't that a double standard, considering you seem to be projecting a relativistic view.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 21 2011 14:50 GMT
#122
On August 21 2011 21:38 DarthXX wrote:
I don't live in NZ anymore but I am on the electoral roll and I've got to ask, where is NZ First in this poll .

My vote will however go to the Bill&Ben Party, assuming they run again this time.


NZ First did not get over the 5% threshold or attain an electorate seat needed to get into Parliament, so has been absent for the last 3 years.

NZ First got about 4%, which is more than what ACT got. ACT of course managed to win Epsom through Rodney Hide (who has been dethroned). So the single person responsible for getting Act's sorry ass into Parliament has lost his power and won't stand in Epsom again. He may as well be gone from Parliament. In essence, the ACT party doesn't deserve to be in Parliament right now at only 3.65% and Rodney laid to waste. The ACT party is a walking talking joke.
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 21 2011 14:59 GMT
#123
On August 21 2011 23:50 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 21:38 DarthXX wrote:
I don't live in NZ anymore but I am on the electoral roll and I've got to ask, where is NZ First in this poll .

My vote will however go to the Bill&Ben Party, assuming they run again this time.


NZ First did not get over the 5% threshold or attain an electorate seat needed to get into Parliament, so has been absent for the last 3 years.

NZ First got about 4%, which is more than what ACT got. ACT of course managed to win Epsom through Rodney Hide (who has been dethroned). So the single person responsible for getting Act's sorry ass into Parliament has lost his power and won't stand in Epsom again. He may as well be gone from Parliament. In essence, the ACT party doesn't deserve to be in Parliament right now at only 3.65% and Rodney laid to waste. The ACT party is a walking talking joke.


Why don't they 'deserve' to be in Parliament if they've met the requirements for being in Parliament? By that same token, Jim Anderton and the Maori Party and Harawira don't 'deserve' to be in Parliament either. And if your argument is that the current leader is outside of Parliament, then that is the same situation as when Norman was still a leader outside of Parliament for the Greens.

You keep making blanket statements which really just goes to show you focus on personal attacks rather than debating policy. I could just as well say: "The Green Party are a walking talking joke period."
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 22 2011 01:08 GMT
#124
On August 21 2011 23:59 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 23:50 CaptainCharisma wrote:
On August 21 2011 21:38 DarthXX wrote:
I don't live in NZ anymore but I am on the electoral roll and I've got to ask, where is NZ First in this poll .

My vote will however go to the Bill&Ben Party, assuming they run again this time.


NZ First did not get over the 5% threshold or attain an electorate seat needed to get into Parliament, so has been absent for the last 3 years.

NZ First got about 4%, which is more than what ACT got. ACT of course managed to win Epsom through Rodney Hide (who has been dethroned). So the single person responsible for getting ACT's sorry ass into Parliament has lost his power and won't stand in Epsom again. He may as well be gone from Parliament. In essence, the ACT party doesn't deserve to be in Parliament right now at only 3.65% and Rodney laid to waste. The ACT party is a walking talking joke.


Why don't they 'deserve' to be in Parliament if they've met the requirements for being in Parliament? By that same token, Jim Anderton and the Maori Party and Harawira don't 'deserve' to be in Parliament either. And if your argument is that the current leader is outside of Parliament, then that is the same situation as when Norman was still a leader outside of Parliament for the Greens.

You keep making blanket statements which really just goes to show you focus on personal attacks rather than debating policy. I could just as well say: "The Green Party are a walking talking joke period."


Your reasoning fails because you evidently do not understand how MMP works. To get into Parliament (or 'deserve' to be there) you need to get over 5% nationwide support or win an electorate seat. ACT didn't get 5%, so the only way they could get into Parliament was because Rodney Hide won Epsom. Under MMP, ACT deserved to get into Parliament when Rodney still had influence. But now that Rodney Hide has been disposed of, the ACT party effectively does not deserve to be in Parliament. No Rodney = not enough support to be in power.

The analogies you used demonstrate your lack of understanding. Jim Anderton and Hone Harawira won Wigram and Te Tai Tokerau respectively, and they continue to be at the forefront of the Progressive Party and the Mana Party, unlike Rodney Hide who has been neutered. These two parties therefore deserve to be in Parliament.

My argument isn't necessarily about a 'leader' it's about the specific person who gained an electorate seat in a party polling under 5%. Even if it were, in the instance you talked about the Greens still had over 5% whereas ACT doesn't.

All these analogies you used have material differences from the ACT-Hide situation. I don't know how you can bring them up if you had a full knowledge of how the MMP thresholds work.
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
wonderwall
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
New Zealand695 Posts
August 22 2011 01:55 GMT
#125
Just as an aside you'd do well to be more respectful of other peoples views. The Act party met the requirements through Rodney Hide winning Epsom and that gave them the mandate to be in parliament until next election. I just don't understand your reasoning, if a party was elected, then the party changes its membership does it no longer have any right to be in power and the slightly different party should have to be re-elected all over again? That seems impractical and pedantic.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-22 01:58:21
August 22 2011 01:57 GMT
#126
On August 22 2011 10:08 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Your reasoning fails because you evidently do not understand how MMP works. To get into Parliament (or 'deserve' to be there) you need to get over 5% nationwide support or win an electorate seat. ACT didn't get 5%, so the only way they could get into Parliament was because Rodney Hide won Epsom. Under MMP, ACT deserved to get into Parliament when Rodney still had influence. But now that Rodney Hide has been disposed of, the ACT party effectively does not deserve to be in Parliament. No Rodney = not enough support to be in power.

The analogies you used demonstrate your lack of understanding. Jim Anderton and Hone Harawira won Wigram and Te Tai Tokerau respectively, and they continue to be at the forefront of the Progressive Party and the Mana Party, unlike Rodney Hide who has been neutered. These two parties therefore deserve to be in Parliament.


You're so full of shit - 'material difference' my ass. Rodney Hide is still an MP. Just because he is no longer the leader, does not mean he is no longer the MP for Epsom. He deserves to be there because the voters of Epsom voted him in and he deserves to be there until the end of his term. As a law student it's pretty ridiculous you think that just because one has been demoted from leader and has less than five percent support, their party does not 'deserve' to be in Parliament. ACT deserves to be in Parliament until the end of this term of Parliament. Your argument is as ridiculous as saying that because Labour now have only 27% support, a number of their existing MPs "do not deserve to be in Parliament".
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
MERLIN.
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada546 Posts
August 22 2011 01:58 GMT
#127
On August 01 2011 23:14 Klesky wrote:
Is the senate ready?
[image loading]

Lower house?
[image loading]

Speaker?
[image loading]

Alright, let's discuss politics.



3 pictures ---- 90cents
making everyone who opens thread laugh - - - - - priceless

Honestly, good pun.

But on a brighter side of things, I agree with OP, his opinions seemed solid.
"A bullet to the head will solve your problems."
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 22 2011 01:59 GMT
#128
I'd also be interested to know what year you are in for your law and economics degree. Have you even made it into second year law?
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 22 2011 02:00 GMT
#129
On August 22 2011 10:58 MERLIN. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2011 23:14 Klesky wrote:
Is the senate ready?
[image loading]

Lower house?
[image loading]

Speaker?
[image loading]

Alright, let's discuss politics.



3 pictures ---- 90cents
making everyone who opens thread laugh - - - - - priceless

Honestly, good pun.

But on a brighter side of things, I agree with OP, his opinions seemed solid.


Only someone who isn't from NZ would find those pictures funny. It's just as unfunny as posting a picture of Bryan Adams in a Canadian politics thread.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
Dali.
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand689 Posts
August 22 2011 02:08 GMT
#130
On August 22 2011 11:00 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 10:58 MERLIN. wrote:
On August 01 2011 23:14 Klesky wrote:
Is the senate ready?
[image loading]

Lower house?
[image loading]

Speaker?
[image loading]

Alright, let's discuss politics.



3 pictures ---- 90cents
making everyone who opens thread laugh - - - - - priceless

Honestly, good pun.

But on a brighter side of things, I agree with OP, his opinions seemed solid.


Only someone who isn't from NZ would find those pictures funny. It's just as unfunny as posting a picture of Bryan Adams in a Canadian politics thread.


I found it pretty funny...
wonderwall
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
New Zealand695 Posts
August 22 2011 02:12 GMT
#131
Only someone who isn't from NZ would find those pictures funny. It's just as unfunny as posting a picture of Bryan Adams in a Canadian politics thread.


I smiled when I read it.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-22 02:26:31
August 22 2011 02:24 GMT
#132
I'm not saying that ACT do not have a right to be in Parliament, clearly if you got in in the first place you have a right to be there. I'm not saying the ACT party should be booted from Parliament, because that is not how the system works. What I am saying is ACT is in a quirky situation where the sole person responsible for their being in Parliament has been all but ousted by the party, which leaves ACT in a position which IS NOT akin to any of the other minor parties for reasons I explained above. ACT has little to no credibility at the moment for these reasons.

On August 22 2011 10:59 Kiwifruit wrote:
I'd also be interested to know what year you are in for your law and economics degree. Have you even made it into second year law?


I stated in the post you are referring to what year I am. What do you do? You've shown a basic lack of knowledge on the smacking debate and MMP, not to mention the Mana Party/Hone Harawira.
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 22 2011 02:33 GMT
#133
On August 22 2011 11:24 CaptainCharisma wrote:
I'm not saying that ACT do not have a right to be in Parliament, clearly if you got in in the first place you have a right to be there. I'm not saying the ACT party should be booted from Parliament, because that is not how the system works. What I am saying is ACT is in a quirky situation where the sole person responsible for their being in Parliament has been all but ousted by the party, which leaves ACT in a position which IS NOT akin to any of the other minor parties for reasons I explained above. ACT has little to no credibility at the moment for these reasons.


What reasons? The sole person responsible for their being in Parliament is still the MP for Epsom and Minister of Local Government. He is currently responsible for the committee stages of the Regulatory Responsibility Bill, a legislation drafted by ACT and supported by ACT members. The only difference is that the leader is now a leader outside of Parliament - as was with Russell Norman before he was elected. On what grounds do you say ACT is in a position that is not akin to any of the other minor parties?

You show a basic misunderstanding of public law and the MMP process.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 22 2011 02:45 GMT
#134
On August 22 2011 11:33 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 11:24 CaptainCharisma wrote:
I'm not saying that ACT do not have a right to be in Parliament, clearly if you got in in the first place you have a right to be there. I'm not saying the ACT party should be booted from Parliament, because that is not how the system works. What I am saying is ACT is in a quirky situation where the sole person responsible for their being in Parliament has been all but ousted by the party, which leaves ACT in a position which IS NOT akin to any of the other minor parties for reasons I explained above. ACT has little to no credibility at the moment for these reasons.


What reasons? The sole person responsible for their being in Parliament is still the MP for Epsom and Minister of Local Government. He is currently responsible for the committee stages of the Regulatory Responsibility Bill, a legislation drafted by ACT and supported by ACT members. The only difference is that the leader is now a leader outside of Parliament - as was with Russell Norman before he was elected. On what grounds do you say ACT is in a position that is not akin to any of the other minor parties?

You show a basic misunderstanding of public law and the MMP process.


How many times do I have to explain it to you? The answer to why ACT is not akin to the other minor parties are contained in my posts above.

Dress it up any way you like, but Rodney Hide has clearly been ousted and has little to no influence in the workings of the party, unlike Jim Anderton with Progressive, Hone Harawira with Mana and Peter Dunne with UF. These four people are the sole reasons why their <5% party is in Parliament. Which one is the odd one out?
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 22 2011 02:51 GMT
#135
For those of you not acquainted with ACT, here's a funny short video of your typical ACT Party supporter:

EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 22 2011 02:52 GMT
#136
On August 22 2011 11:45 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 11:33 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 22 2011 11:24 CaptainCharisma wrote:
I'm not saying that ACT do not have a right to be in Parliament, clearly if you got in in the first place you have a right to be there. I'm not saying the ACT party should be booted from Parliament, because that is not how the system works. What I am saying is ACT is in a quirky situation where the sole person responsible for their being in Parliament has been all but ousted by the party, which leaves ACT in a position which IS NOT akin to any of the other minor parties for reasons I explained above. ACT has little to no credibility at the moment for these reasons.


What reasons? The sole person responsible for their being in Parliament is still the MP for Epsom and Minister of Local Government. He is currently responsible for the committee stages of the Regulatory Responsibility Bill, a legislation drafted by ACT and supported by ACT members. The only difference is that the leader is now a leader outside of Parliament - as was with Russell Norman before he was elected. On what grounds do you say ACT is in a position that is not akin to any of the other minor parties?

You show a basic misunderstanding of public law and the MMP process.


How many times do I have to explain it to you? The answer to why ACT is not akin to the other minor parties are contained in my posts above.

Dress it up any way you like, but Rodney Hide has clearly been ousted and has little to no influence in the workings of the party, unlike Jim Anderton with Progressive, Hone Harawira with Mana and Peter Dunne with UF. These four people are the sole reasons why their <5% party is in Parliament. Which one is the odd one out?


That's because JA, HH and PD are the ONLY MPs in their parties. Your argument is pretty much that if a party leader is no longer party leader he shouldn't be in Parliament. That's a load of bullshit. The Epsom electorate elected him to be their MP for three terms. He is still available in his electorate office three days a week if constituents wish to see him for any public duties. And all of ACTs members are aware of the things Rodney is currently doing as Minister of Local Government because we receive the member updates regarding the regulatory changes and attend the party meetings. Unless the law says someone who loses the leadership of a party does not deserve to be in Parliament and should be removed from office, then you're just full of shit. You keep saying the answer is contained in your posts, but all of your posts in this thread have been you making ridiculous statements with no substance to back them up. That is your method of debating - focusing on personal attacks and not actually discussing policy. You say things as if they are fact when in fact all you are doing is giving your ad hominum opinions and you've been doing that throughout this entire thread.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 22 2011 03:14 GMT
#137
On August 22 2011 11:52 Kiwifruit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 11:45 CaptainCharisma wrote:
On August 22 2011 11:33 Kiwifruit wrote:
On August 22 2011 11:24 CaptainCharisma wrote:
I'm not saying that ACT do not have a right to be in Parliament, clearly if you got in in the first place you have a right to be there. I'm not saying the ACT party should be booted from Parliament, because that is not how the system works. What I am saying is ACT is in a quirky situation where the sole person responsible for their being in Parliament has been all but ousted by the party, which leaves ACT in a position which IS NOT akin to any of the other minor parties for reasons I explained above. ACT has little to no credibility at the moment for these reasons.


What reasons? The sole person responsible for their being in Parliament is still the MP for Epsom and Minister of Local Government. He is currently responsible for the committee stages of the Regulatory Responsibility Bill, a legislation drafted by ACT and supported by ACT members. The only difference is that the leader is now a leader outside of Parliament - as was with Russell Norman before he was elected. On what grounds do you say ACT is in a position that is not akin to any of the other minor parties?

You show a basic misunderstanding of public law and the MMP process.


How many times do I have to explain it to you? The answer to why ACT is not akin to the other minor parties are contained in my posts above.

Dress it up any way you like, but Rodney Hide has clearly been ousted and has little to no influence in the workings of the party, unlike Jim Anderton with Progressive, Hone Harawira with Mana and Peter Dunne with UF. These four people are the sole reasons why their <5% party is in Parliament. Which one is the odd one out?


That's because JA, HH and PD are the ONLY MPs in their parties. Your argument is pretty much that if a party leader is no longer party leader he shouldn't be in Parliament. That's a load of bullshit. The Epsom electorate elected him to be their MP for three terms. He is still available in his electorate office three days a week if constituents wish to see him for any public duties. And all of ACTs members are aware of the things Rodney is currently doing as Minister of Local Government because we receive the member updates regarding the regulatory changes and attend the party meetings. Unless the law says someone who loses the leadership of a party does not deserve to be in Parliament and should be removed from office, then you're just full of shit. You keep saying the answer is contained in your posts, but all of your posts in this thread have been you making ridiculous statements with no substance to back them up. That is your method of debating - focusing on personal attacks and not actually discussing policy. You say things as if they are fact when in fact all you are doing is giving your ad hominum opinions and you've been doing that throughout this entire thread.


Thank you for telling me what my argument is, but you are way off.

This isn't some sort of legal issue on whether or not ACT should be in Parliament, my point is the ACT party is now a farce since all their member got in on the back of Rodney, who is now neutered within the party. I feel their existence within Parliament lacks credibility at the moment because of this. Also, I have made very few (I can't remember any) ad hominem attacks. I have called people stupid based on inaccuracies of fact or illogical statements. You are the one who has tried to bring up my education. You have called me an ass many times, but I don't get all fragile about it.


EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
wonderwall
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
New Zealand695 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-22 06:18:51
August 22 2011 06:18 GMT
#138
Whats this, fellow NZ Law Students on TL? What year/university are you in?
ThunderGod
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
New Zealand897 Posts
August 22 2011 06:31 GMT
#139
On August 21 2011 18:43 brendaaan wrote:
i like Nation with the new benefit scheme... no longer will my hard earned tax dollers be wasted on drugs and alcohol!

Yeah, now it's just your untaxed dollars that will be.
"Certain forms of popular music nowadays, namely rap and hip hop styles, are just irritating gangsters bragging about their illegal exploits and short-sighted lifestyles." - Shiverfish ~2009
ThunderGod
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
New Zealand897 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-22 08:06:23
August 22 2011 08:03 GMT
#140
On August 22 2011 15:18 wonderwall wrote:
Whats this, fellow NZ Law Students on TL? What year/university are you in?

Now's not the time to admit to being a law student. This thread was terrible to begin with and continues it spiral down the shitter. It's not just that people are arguing about politics on the internet (an exercise in futility), they are arguing on minute points of detail that have nothing to do with what they were originally talking about. Seriously guys, just take your arguments to private messaging, noone wants to read 10 posts a page of you guys attacking each other.
I still hold some little hope of reading some positive policy discussion in this thread.

Tbh though the only reason the OP wasn't shifted to blogs immediately is that none of the mods know anything about NZ politics. The fact that the OPer triple posted and then got banned within 15 minutes should have been a clue.
"Certain forms of popular music nowadays, namely rap and hip hop styles, are just irritating gangsters bragging about their illegal exploits and short-sighted lifestyles." - Shiverfish ~2009
Kiwifruit
Profile Joined August 2011
New Zealand130 Posts
August 22 2011 08:07 GMT
#141
Why should it be moved to blogs? The NZ election is coming up in November, I fail to see how this would be any different to say the Republican Nominations thread.
"You take the good things from every different discipline, use what works, and you throw the rest away" - Bruce Lee, Atheist.
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 22 2011 08:56 GMT
#142
On August 22 2011 17:03 ThunderGod wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 15:18 wonderwall wrote:
Whats this, fellow NZ Law Students on TL? What year/university are you in?

Now's not the time to admit to being a law student. This thread was terrible to begin with and continues it spiral down the shitter. It's not just that people are arguing about politics on the internet (an exercise in futility), they are arguing on minute points of detail that have nothing to do with what they were originally talking about. Seriously guys, just take your arguments to private messaging, noone wants to read 10 posts a page of you guys attacking each other.
I still hold some little hope of reading some positive policy discussion in this thread.

Tbh though the only reason the OP wasn't shifted to blogs immediately is that none of the mods know anything about NZ politics. The fact that the OPer triple posted and then got banned within 15 minutes should have been a clue.



There was some good discussion of the anti-smacking law and some less interesting discussion of abortion. The election is still a ways off, policy issues will come to the forefront soon I'd say.
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
Generic SC
Profile Joined May 2010
New Zealand179 Posts
August 22 2011 09:38 GMT
#143
wow I can actually contribute for once since my part time job for a market research firm let me do research for the election.

National will win, partly because labour lacks the leadership it needs to pull through strongly and hone harawira's party with lolfail.
DJ_Amal
Profile Joined October 2010
New Zealand62 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-22 09:44:51
August 22 2011 09:39 GMT
#144
On August 21 2011 20:19 lothar10 wrote:
DJ_Amal, you'll like this video if you haven't seen it yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhCAyIllnXY

Speech by Sir Paul Callaghan regarding NZ's strengths in certain industries and how we should focus on those instead of other more traditional ones that we do

LOL, I was invited to go to one of his lecture at Vic as part of the Chancellor lecture series. I think what he said made perfect sense and even though the green has their ideas slightly off (in terms of creating green tech industry) but they are the only one who are thinking about turning New Zealand economy into a more high value economy by going high tech. Then again the greens are politicians just like the rest of them. If only Sir Paul Callaghan is running for PM, I would so vote for him as my views on NZ is the same as his, sigh.

By the way for those who are going to vote for National I am curious as to why do you want this government to stay in power. Is it because of their economic policies, social policies or because you like the look of John Key.

By the way I don't mean to ask this question in a disrespectful way, I am just curious as to the reasons behind your decision and I will not judge you on your answer.

As for economic policies this government hasn't done anything to improve our economy. Ok they say they are planning to increase savings but this government have substantially increased government debt (and this is before the quake). I just find this government to lack any substance and are not willing to take real actions that are needed.

CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 22 2011 09:44 GMT
#145
On August 22 2011 18:38 Generic SC wrote:
wow I can actually contribute for once since my part time job for a market research firm let me do research for the election.

National will win, partly because labour lacks the leadership it needs to pull through strongly and hone harawira's party with lolfail.


Are you saying you think Mana won't receive many votes AND Hone Harawira won't win his electorate (lolfail), or just that Mana won't receive many votes? Because I thought he had a good shot at winning back Te Tai Tokerau.

Did you gather any information on the likelihood of Winston Peters returning to Parliament with NZFirst? I miss him a lot :D, so entertaining.

[image loading]
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
Goragoth
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
New Zealand1065 Posts
August 22 2011 09:54 GMT
#146
On August 22 2011 18:39 DJ_Amal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2011 20:19 lothar10 wrote:
DJ_Amal, you'll like this video if you haven't seen it yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhCAyIllnXY

Speech by Sir Paul Callaghan regarding NZ's strengths in certain industries and how we should focus on those instead of other more traditional ones that we do

LOL, I was invited to go to one of his lecture at Vic as part of the Chancellor lecture series. I think what he said made perfect sense and even though the green has their ideas slightly off (in terms of creating green tech industry) but they are the only one who are thinking about turning New Zealand economy into a more high value economy by going high tech. Then again the greens are politicians just like the rest of them. If only Sir Paul Callaghan is running for PM, I would so vote for him as my views on NZ is the same as his, sigh.

By the way for those who are going to vote for National I am curious as to why do you want this government to stay in power. Is it because of their economic policies, social policies or because you like the look of John Key.

By the way I don't mean to ask this question in a disrespectful way, I am just curious as to the reasons behind your decision and I will not judge you on your answer.

As for economic policies this government hasn't done anything to improve our economy. Ok they say they are planning to increase savings but this government have substantially increased government debt (and this is before the quake). I just find this government to lack any substance and are not willing to take real actions that are needed.


Personally I won't vote for National since it would take rather unusual circumstances for me to vote right of centre but there's not too much to criticise the current government about. Sure they aren't perfect, but government never is. There is little they can do to truly boost the economy, NZ is so tiny that we rely heavily on how the rest of the world is doing and with the US and Europe in recession we're unlikely to do too well.

As for debt, I'm all for increasing it, NZ doesn't have a high government debt burden and when the economy is down is exactly the time to engage in deficit spending. Balancing the budget in a recession is about the stupidest thing you can do, however you do need the discipline to pay down the debt when the economy is booming.
Creator of LoLTool.
ThunderGod
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
New Zealand897 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-22 10:00:16
August 22 2011 09:57 GMT
#147
On August 22 2011 17:07 Kiwifruit wrote:
Why should it be moved to blogs? The NZ election is coming up in November, I fail to see how this would be any different to say the Republican Nominations thread.

Huh, permabanned.
I enjoyed that video DJ-Amal, it had some good ideas. Makes me wish we lived in a technocracy.
"Certain forms of popular music nowadays, namely rap and hip hop styles, are just irritating gangsters bragging about their illegal exploits and short-sighted lifestyles." - Shiverfish ~2009
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
August 22 2011 10:06 GMT
#148
Did anyone notice how Kiwifruit's account was created shortly after the OP was banned, and they both held the same views? Also, Kiwifruit was the one who bumped this thread for no apparent reason some 20 days after it had stagnated...

Now Kiwifruit is banned.
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
oldgregg
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand1176 Posts
August 22 2011 10:08 GMT
#149
labour and the greens are the only ones who actually give a f**k about average kiwis, im voting for one of them
Calculatedly addicted to Substance D for profit by drug terrorists
DJ_Amal
Profile Joined October 2010
New Zealand62 Posts
August 22 2011 10:10 GMT
#150
On August 22 2011 18:54 Goragoth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 18:39 DJ_Amal wrote:
On August 21 2011 20:19 lothar10 wrote:
DJ_Amal, you'll like this video if you haven't seen it yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhCAyIllnXY

Speech by Sir Paul Callaghan regarding NZ's strengths in certain industries and how we should focus on those instead of other more traditional ones that we do

LOL, I was invited to go to one of his lecture at Vic as part of the Chancellor lecture series. I think what he said made perfect sense and even though the green has their ideas slightly off (in terms of creating green tech industry) but they are the only one who are thinking about turning New Zealand economy into a more high value economy by going high tech. Then again the greens are politicians just like the rest of them. If only Sir Paul Callaghan is running for PM, I would so vote for him as my views on NZ is the same as his, sigh.

By the way for those who are going to vote for National I am curious as to why do you want this government to stay in power. Is it because of their economic policies, social policies or because you like the look of John Key.

By the way I don't mean to ask this question in a disrespectful way, I am just curious as to the reasons behind your decision and I will not judge you on your answer.

As for economic policies this government hasn't done anything to improve our economy. Ok they say they are planning to increase savings but this government have substantially increased government debt (and this is before the quake). I just find this government to lack any substance and are not willing to take real actions that are needed.


Personally I won't vote for National since it would take rather unusual circumstances for me to vote right of centre but there's not too much to criticise the current government about. Sure they aren't perfect, but government never is. There is little they can do to truly boost the economy, NZ is so tiny that we rely heavily on how the rest of the world is doing and with the US and Europe in recession we're unlikely to do too well.

As for debt, I'm all for increasing it, NZ doesn't have a high government debt burden and when the economy is down is exactly the time to engage in deficit spending. Balancing the budget in a recession is about the stupidest thing you can do, however you do need the discipline to pay down the debt when the economy is booming.

Totally agree with you that now is a good time for more government spending and exercise fiscal discipline in the good times to pay off those debts. I was just pointing out National's argument of increasing savings in NZ but somehow they are increasing our debt, so they have completely failed with their goal.
DJ_Amal
Profile Joined October 2010
New Zealand62 Posts
August 22 2011 10:12 GMT
#151
On August 22 2011 18:57 ThunderGod wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 17:07 Kiwifruit wrote:
Why should it be moved to blogs? The NZ election is coming up in November, I fail to see how this would be any different to say the Republican Nominations thread.

Huh, permabanned.
I enjoyed that video DJ-Amal, it had some good ideas. Makes me wish we lived in a technocracy.

I didn't post that video, it was posted by lothar10. Just giving credit where credit is due.
LastDance
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
New Zealand510 Posts
August 22 2011 10:26 GMT
#152
On August 22 2011 19:08 oldgregg wrote:
labour and the greens are the only ones who actually give a f**k about average kiwis, im voting for one of them


no, Labour cares about the kiwis who don't contribute to the country and don't intend to contribute to the country.

i think national has some great policies coming into this election.
oldgregg
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand1176 Posts
August 22 2011 10:37 GMT
#153
On August 22 2011 19:26 LastDance wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 22 2011 19:08 oldgregg wrote:
labour and the greens are the only ones who actually give a f**k about average kiwis, im voting for one of them


no, Labour cares about the kiwis who don't contribute to the country and don't intend to contribute to the country.

i think national has some great policies coming into this election.


what are some of nationals policies that you are looking forward to? heard of the search and surveillance bill?
Calculatedly addicted to Substance D for profit by drug terrorists
Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
August 22 2011 10:51 GMT
#154
On August 22 2011 19:06 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Did anyone notice how Kiwifruit's account was created shortly after the OP was banned, and they both held the same views? Also, Kiwifruit was the one who bumped this thread for no apparent reason some 20 days after it had stagnated...

Now Kiwifruit is banned.


From the automated ban list...
"Kiwifruit was just banned by EvilTeletubby.

That account was created on 2011-08-19 10:56:38 and had 130 posts.

Reason: Stop making accounts here. Get a fucking hint."
Kar98
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia924 Posts
August 22 2011 13:02 GMT
#155
Oh NZers, for the sake of your country don't you dare vote greens :/
Dali.
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand689 Posts
August 22 2011 13:41 GMT
#156
On August 22 2011 22:02 Kar98 wrote:
Oh NZers, for the sake of your country don't you dare vote greens :/


May we ask why?
Don Brash
Profile Joined September 2011
New Zealand6 Posts
September 26 2011 20:54 GMT
#157
What did you guys think about my ideas regarding the decriminalisation of cannabis?

+ Show Spoiler +
LAW AND ORDER: PROTECTING NEW ZEALANDERS FROM CRIME


An address by Don Brash Leader, ACT New Zealand; 25 September 2011; Waipuna Lodge, Auckland

Ladies and gentlemen,

As we prepare to elect a new Parliament, I'm delighted to have this opportunity to share some of my reflections on one of government's most crucial functions: the maintenance of law and order in the context of a free society.

In fact, along with the defence of the country – the protection of its citizens from foreign aggression – the protection of its citizens from internal aggression is government's most crucial function.

Its importance is shown in the fact that not an election goes by without its being a political football. I'm sure this election will be no exception!

With so many people here today from the Asian community, I'm delighted to note in passing that, if the example you set were more widely followed, law and order would be much less of an issue.

Asians are admirably and spectacularly under-represented in our crime statistics!

In 2004, there were 167 arrests for every 10,000 Asians in the country, 320 arrests for every 10,000 Europeans, and 1,448 arrests for every 10,000 Maori.

I doubt the figures have altered appreciably since then. Certain high-profile exceptions notwithstanding, Asians such as yourselves – both New Zealand-born and immigrant – have long been exemplary citizens: quietly and lawfully going about your business, being good New Zealand citizens while retaining your identity, looking after your families, working extremely hard and generally achieving great results with a minimum of fuss and bother.

You have been much more often the victims of crime than the perpetrators of crime.

I'm tempted to say that the entrepreneurial ethic is part of your DNA – except that that would be to insult you. You've chosen to embrace and practise it – and for that I salute you.

As a politician, my message to voters generally is, “Ask not what the government can do for you; ask what you can do for yourselves.” In the case of this audience, such a message is redundant.

In society at large, however, there are still too many unwilling to make their own way in life, honestly and peaceably. How we deal with such people, and minimise their numbers, is the subject of my comments today.

Actually, there are encouraging signs their numbers may already be falling. Statistics suggest that violent crime is down this year for only the second time since 2000. Much credit for this is due to our National Party colleagues, and in particular to Police Minister Judith Collins, who among many other good things has put more police on the beat with encouraging results. Three hundred additional frontline officers were assigned to Counties Manukau recently, for instance, and recorded crime in the area dropped by over 3%.

It's too early to be certain that the Three Strikes legislation that the ACT Party successfully steered through Parliament has also played a part in the improved crime statistics, though this was precisely the sort of outcome supporters of the legislation expected.

But, even if this encouraging trend continues, I believe there are some quite fundamental things that need to change if we’re to drive crime figures down permanently to as low a level as can reasonably be expected in a free society.

I should say at this point that ACT is still in the process of finalising specific law and order policies for the upcoming election.

What I want to share with you is the kind of thinking that is shaping that policy formulation, so that when I do announce policy specifics, none of them should come as a shock to you!

The backdrop to all our policy is a basic bed-rock principle: that individuals are the rightful owners of their own lives and therefore have inherent rights and responsibilities. The proper purpose of government is to protect those rights and not to assume those responsibilities.

And a fundamental right is the right to defend oneself from attack when the government is not there to do so – the right to self-defence, in other words.

It's a right currently recognised in law under Section 48 of the New Zealand Crimes Act:
“Everyone is justified in using, in defence of himself or another, such force as, in the circumstances as he believes them to be, it is reasonable to use.”

Unfortunately this law has been honoured in recent times as much in the breach as in the observance.

Anyone who injures, much less kills, an intruder or attacker is as likely to be prosecuted as the intruder or attacker!

Furthermore, the intruder or attacker might well seek compensation for his injury, or for having his feelings hurt … and in this crazy politically correct world, it's entirely possible he'll get it!

Many of you will remember the case of gun-shop owner Greg Carvell. He shot and wounded an intruder who was threatening him and two staff members with a machete. Instead of applauding him, police charged him with possession of a pistol for unlawful purposes. The judge who sentenced the machete-wielder was moved to deplore the charges against Mr Carvell. As were the public-at-large. But Mr Carvell had to endure a year with the charges hanging over him before the police yielded to common sense, decency and public outrage … and dropped them.

Northland farmer Paul McIntyre was not so lucky. He did have to go to trial. His saga went on for two and a half years after he shot and wounded one of three men trying to steal his farm-bike. Police brought two charges against him: shooting the would-be thief with reckless disregard for the safety of others, and discharging a shotgun without reasonable cause in a manner likely to endanger the safety of any person. A jury found him not guilty on the first charge but couldn't reach a verdict on the second, meaning he had to endure another trial on that charge. The judge in that trial took the rare step of directing the jury to find Mr McIntyre not guilty without the trial proceeding … and there, finally, this travesty of justice ended. It should never have started.

Mr McIntyre's legion of supporters asked at the time why a blameless man, alone late at night in a remote location, should be charged for defending himself against three intruders attempting to steal his property. The answer, of course, is that he shouldn't have been. I believe we must now make it so that he couldn't be.

Note that the problem is not what the law says – everyone is entitled to use reasonable force in self-defence – but the way in which police have often chosen to thumb their nose at it.

You'll remember no doubt the case of Virender Singh, owner of a liquor store in Otara. Wielding a hockey stick, he chased off five drunken youths trying to steal alcohol from his store. One of them stabbed him. Mr Singh was arrested and charged on two counts of injuring with intent. A police spokesman said Mr Singh had used too much force and his arrest was a warning to others not to take the law into their own hands. They should ring 111, he said. Six months later, a Justice of the Peace in the Manukau District Court decided there was no case to answer and the charges were dropped. Charges should never have been laid to begin with.

A couple of months prior to the arrest of Virender Singh, another Mr Singh, Navtej, in another liquor store, had refrained from taking the law into his own hands. He offered no resistance to several youths staging an armed robbery of his store. Regardless, one of them shot him in the abdomen. Mr Singh's business partner did dial 111. Police arrived … 31 minutes later. A subsequent inquiry found the slow police response to the 111 call was unjustifiable and materially contributed to the delay in getting emergency medical treatment to Mr Singh … Mr Singh having died of his wounds in hospital the day after being shot. It was, and is, precious little consolation to his family that he had not taken the law into his own hands.

Ladies and gentlemen, these kinds of episodes are a blight on any society claiming to be civilised.

My intention is to see that ACT Party policy reflects a firm commitment to Section 48 of the Crimes Act.

To that end, I believe that the right to self-defence should be enshrined in our Bill of Rights also. It's already ACT policy to add private property rights to the Bill of Rights; the right to self-defence should be there too.

The Crimes Act should be amended to include a presumption – not a guarantee, but a presumption – of immunity from prosecution for anyone who uses reasonable force to defend his person and/or property.

And I would favour amending Section 56, which currently says:
“Everyone in peaceable possession of any land or building, and everyone lawfully assisting him or acting by his authority, is justified in using reasonable force to prevent any person from trespassing on the land or building or to remove him therefrom, if he does not strike or do bodily harm to that person.”

I would delete the words “if he does not strike or do bodily harm to that person.” If a trespasser turns violent, it's entirely possible that any reasonable force used to evict him will involve striking him or causing him bodily harm. The law should allow for that.

The key concept in all of this of course is “reasonable.” Shooting someone who's retrieving a tennis ball he or she has accidentally lobbed onto your property would clearly be unreasonable, not to mention despicable … and should most definitely be prosecutable.

But – and this is the bottom line as far as I'm concerned – the status quo where innocent people are more likely than not to be prosecuted for using legitimate force in self-defence and in defence of their property must be overturned.

Your home is your castle; your body is your temple. The law must be unequivocal in allowing you to defend both with reasonable force.

I pledge that ACT policy will be directed to that end.

Part of the status quo three years ago that the National Government has taken laudable steps to overturn was an ethos that coddled perpetrators of crime and cold-shouldered their victims. Too often, the wellbeing of the criminal appeared to be paramount; his victims were ignored by the system, left to fend for themselves.

The Victims of Crime Reform Bill currently before Parliament goes a long way toward dealing with this problem. Among other things, it seeks to “increase the accountability and responsiveness of government agencies providing services to victims.”

It paves the way for victims, in their Victim Impact Statements, to be far more candid when they confront those who have wronged them than they've been able to be in the past.

In the past, statements were watered down by judges so as not to unduly hurt the perpetrators' feelings. They were often a very tepid reflection of the victim's feelings, thus denying the victim the powerful catharsis a frank account would enable, and sparing the perpetrator the full blast of his victim's wrath, hurt and pain.

But I'm concerned that a provision in the Bill allowing judges to refuse requests to make Victim Impact Statements for fear of a risk to anyone's safety or disruption of court proceedings might still act as a dampener on the content of such statements.

If a judge has such a fear, it should be open to him to ensure extra precautions are taken to ensure everyone's safety. It should not be an option to deny the victim his or her right to make an Impact Statement. That right should be absolute, and I hope the legislation in its final form will uphold that.

Perpetrators should not be spared the full blast of their victims' wrath, hurt and pain.

Concern for the hurt feelings of criminals is, of course, a sign of our crazy politically correct times. If I were to state another overarching objective I believe should guide our policy formulation, it would be the banishing of political correctness from our legal system.

Just a few months ago a hardened criminal was awarded $3500 for breach of privacy and hurt feelings. This particular man has a long and violent criminal history. His record includes aggravated robbery, aggravated assault of a police officer, unlawful possession of firearms and trying to escape from custody. He's in jail as we speak. At least, I hope he is.

At some point he learned that the Ministry of Social Development had wrongly listed him as having a conviction under the heading of “Domestic Violence.” That's one thing that is not part of his record thus far. The Ministry refused to correct the mistake and apologise. The man went to the Privacy Commissioner and the Human Rights Review Tribunal saying that, given the injury to his feelings, nothing less than an apology and monetary compensation would be acceptable to him. The Tribunal agreed that he'd suffered emotional harm and ordered not just the payout but suppression of the man's name lest he be caused further emotional distress.

Ladies and gentlemen, could a satirist writing fiction improve on this?!

Or on the ACC payout of $20,000 to a serial burglar for a new ear to be constructed, to replace the one bitten off by a police dog as he practised his craft?

At this point, I don't know what would be required, legislatively speaking, to put a stop to such grotesque inversions of justice, but my position is: whatever it takes is what we should do!

As I indicated at the outset, what I'm offering today are musings rather than definitive policy announcements – musings that will give you some idea where we're headed in our policy formulation.

There are so many things relevant to this vast and often complex topic that I could muse about – concurrent sentencing, domestic violence, name suppression, secret surveillance, to name just a few – but time permits me just one more this afternoon.

I've already stated ACT's support for the Government's boosting of police numbers. Making sure there are enough police to keep us safe from criminals – and that they're “out there,” accessible, on the beat – should always be a primary priority for any government.

So should making sure that the laws the police are enforcing are in fact keeping us safe from criminals.

Laws that do not serve that purpose, and indeed possibly make us more vulnerable to criminals, should not be on the statute books to begin with.

In that respect I have to say, after long and painstaking reflection, I have come to have serious questions about our current marijuana laws.

Since 1927, it's been a criminal offence to possess, use, produce or sell cannabis in New Zealand.

The police and the courts spend some $100 million of taxpayer money a year enforcing this prohibition of a drug believed by many people to be less dangerous than tobacco or alcohol. Is there really any point to this?

Some 6000 people are prosecuted every year for cannabis offences. Are we any safer for this?

It is believed that some 400,000 New Zealanders are cannabis users. In other words, some 400,000 New Zealanders routinely flout the law – roughly 10% of the total population. Has the sky fallen in?

Apparently, a majority of New Zealanders think this law is an ass. The last poll I saw, admittedly not a very scientific one, on stuff.co.nz, had 64% of respondents in favour of decriminalisation. Has the time come to pursue that option?

Just a couple of months ago, the Global Commission on Drug Policy pronounced the international War on Drugs a failure and recommended that governments should explore legalising marijuana and other controlled substances.

The Global Commission's members, I should add, include former UN Secretary-General Kofi Anan, former US Secretary of State George Schultz, former US Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker, former presidents of Brazil, Peru and Colombia, a former Prime Minister of Greece, and businessman Richard Branson. These are hardly dope-addled hippies or wild-eyed radicals. They reported that drug prohibition has had devastating effects on individuals and societies all around the world and said the War on Drugs as we know it should end.

In the United Kingdom, the Liberal Democrats – in coalition with the Conservative Party – favour the decriminalization of all drugs.

In April this year, our own Law Commission, whose President at the time was former Prime Minister Sir Geoffrey Palmer – again, hardly a dope-addled hippy or wild-eyed radical – recommended allowing cannabis for medicinal use and substituting a cautioning regime for criminal penalties in non-medicinal cases.

I'm haunted by the thought that all that police time and all those police resources could be better deployed in actually keeping us safe from real criminals intent on harming us, instead of making criminals of 400,000 New Zealanders who are harming no one – except, arguably, themselves, which is their prerogative in a free society.

I'm deeply troubled by the fact that the biggest beneficiaries of prohibition are the gangs, just as organised crime was the biggest beneficiary of the ill-fated prohibition of alcohol in the United States.

I'm troubled by all the crime gangs commit in pursuit of their illicit trade, and all the innocent victims caught in the crossfire.

I hasten to add I do not advocate or approve of marijuana use. Unlike Helen Clark and Peter Dunne, I haven't ever tried it and I have absolutely no intention of doing so. But I have to ask myself by what right I would ban someone else from using it, or support a law that does so, especially when I'm leader of the political party in New Zealand that is most committed to personal freedom.

Let me be absolutely clear: I'm not saying it's now ACT policy to decriminalise or legalise marijuana. I'm simply saying it's my personal view that we should give the idea serious consideration as there are some strong arguments in its favour – arguments supported by some seriously sober and responsible national and international leaders.

I hope I've succeeded in conveying the flavour of my thinking on the matters I've touched on, and indeed matters I haven't, as my colleagues and I continue the process of formulating our law and order policy.

When we do announce that policy, you may be sure that it’ll be driven by four over-arching considerations:

1. making sure the government does as much as possible to keep you safe from criminals;

2. making sure that when the government can't be there, you won't be criminalised for taking reasonable steps to keep yourself safe from criminals;

3. making sure you're not criminalised for any action that is in fact a victimless crime; and

4. making sure victims are not treated as criminals, and criminals are not treated as victims.

Thank you ladies and gentlemen.


ENDS
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-26 21:19:37
September 26 2011 21:18 GMT
#158
Well, I definitely won't be voting Labour. Minimum wage raised to $15 an hour? I'll lose my job or have my hours severely cut, and may not get the next job I'm trying to get if the small company I want to work for can't afford that. Raising minimum wage doesn't help anybody, and it hurts people at the bottom end of the scale like me. I bet if there was no minimum wage at all I wouldn't have had to search for so long for my first job...

And I won't be voting National either. They're too....soft? They do some good stuff and some bad stuff and don't do much of either very well. And the copyrights amendment and the surveillance act are both very big brother.

I don't see any reason to vote act or greens or maori. All the larger parties are meh, I might vote bill&ben or the conservative party or something.

As for decriminilization of cannabis, I don't smoke pot nor do I want to, nor do I approve of it, but it isn't the government's job to illegalize it. There's a good chance that if it was legalized it'd become just a minor recreational thing to do like in the netherlands.

To the people saying increasing government debt is a good thing: WHY is it a good thing? And how often to governments actually pay back much or any of the money during the good years?
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Helen Clark
Profile Joined November 2011
4 Posts
November 02 2011 02:57 GMT
#159
I selected these two as they represent the pure left and right of New Zealand politics, and the fact that their opening addresses are only one minute long as opposed to the boring Labour and National ones. Which party appeals to you more?





Poll: Alliance or Libertarianz?

Libertarianz (2)
 
67%

Alliance (1)
 
33%

3 total votes

Your vote: Alliance or Libertarianz?

(Vote): Alliance
(Vote): Libertarianz

CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
November 20 2011 14:47 GMT
#160
Oh Hai DiscretionaryDuck/Kiwifruit/Helen Clark...decided to make yet another account huh?

I wouldn't classify Alliance as the pure left in this country. Libertarianz are pure right however, which is why their policies are batshit insane.
EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-25 07:40:58
November 25 2011 07:38 GMT
#161
Well, we get to vote tomorrow. I don't know who exactly I will vote for. United Future has by far and away the best policies (i.e. free university in lieu of student allowance, plans to increase NZ army focus on peace keeping and special ops, better tax plan) and Dunne has pushed through some good pieces of legislation while in parliament - however, I'm not in his electorate and with the way UF is polling, I don't think he'll be able to scrape another MP in with him if he wins O'hare. For that reason, I might vote NZF as it looks like Winston is barely missing 5% and probably could use the vote, while I dont agree with all of his policies I think a vote for Winston is more likely to keep Key in check in the upcoming 3 years. Having something to keep National honest is incredibly valuable - National governing alone is a scary thought.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
oldgregg
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand1176 Posts
November 25 2011 08:01 GMT
#162
MANA party all the way! 15 dollar minumum wage, 20,000 new houses, 1000 dollar lump sum to anyone over 18 who earns less than 30K a year to help get them on their feet. Hone Harawera seems like the only sensible and honest politician out there imo
Calculatedly addicted to Substance D for profit by drug terrorists
CaptainCharisma
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand808 Posts
November 25 2011 11:16 GMT
#163
I am an election whore. Anyone else interested in making full predictions and seeing who gets closest once all is said and done? Can choose based on heart or head or a little bit of both. I'm going with a little bit of both.

I will be quite surprised if National don't 'win' the election somehow, but in making my predictions for today's results I cannot help but come up with a different outcome. Here is my prediction:

National: 46%
Labour: 30%
Greens: 14%
New Zealand First: 5% -
Mana: 1.4% - Hone Harawira wins Te Tai Tokerau, bringing in Annette Sykes from the list.
Maori: 1% - Maori candidates will win 4 electorate seats creating an overhang.


No other parties will win an electorate or get to 5% - including ACT/John Banks and United Future/Peter Dunne. The remaining % you don't see in my list will be spread across the minor parties that don't make it into Parliament.

So based on this, a Labour + Greens + NZF + Mana and/or Maori party will form a government. This is my prediction.

Note that on these numbers the Maori party may work with National and this could possibly give Nats + Maori a majority of seats, although the numbers will be really close.

EG.DeMuslim --- EG.ThorZain --- TSL.Polt --- LGIMMvp --- Mill.fOrGG --- EG.Stephano --- EGiNcontroL --- EG.IdrA --- MarineKing.Prime --- SlayerS_MMA --- Liquid'Hero
apalemorning
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada509 Posts
November 25 2011 12:27 GMT
#164
On November 25 2011 17:01 oldgregg wrote:
Hone Harawera seems like the only sensible and honest politician out there imo

i didnt know taking taxpayers money to go on a vacation really counts as "honest".
immortal/roach is pretty good against stalkers
Jehct
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
New Zealand9115 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 02:48:03
November 25 2011 12:44 GMT
#165
On November 25 2011 16:38 Plexa wrote:
Well, we get to vote tomorrow. I don't know who exactly I will vote for. United Future has by far and away the best policies (i.e. free university in lieu of student allowance, plans to increase NZ army focus on peace keeping and special ops, better tax plan) and Dunne has pushed through some good pieces of legislation while in parliament - however, I'm not in his electorate and with the way UF is polling, I don't think he'll be able to scrape another MP in with him if he wins O'hare. For that reason, I might vote NZF as it looks like Winston is barely missing 5% and probably could use the vote, while I dont agree with all of his policies I think a vote for Winston is more likely to keep Key in check in the upcoming 3 years. Having something to keep National honest is incredibly valuable - National governing alone is a scary thought.

Except there are already too many university students & not enough tradesmen/other tertiary students in NZ. Free university just encourages more kids to get their degree and go to Australia - at least the interest on loans while overseas gives something back to the NZ economy. It's a nice idea theoretically, and it worked 50 years ago, but it's a grossly outdated concept.

Increasing NZ focus on peacekeeping/special ops does what exactly? We aren't threatened and we have one of the worst economies among our trading partners. It's hardly going to open doors or have any serious impact (for anyone); it's just a money-sink we can't afford right now.

The tax system is the only thing worth voting for, and UNF is never going to get the power to make it happen, 5% or no. I can't see anything that UNF could get from negotiations that would justify my vote, personally.

Then again, everyone else is fatally flawed too. I wish there was actually someone that seemed worth voting for, even if they lied through their teeth. At least I'd feel good at the time. The best hope almost seems like the Greens since they'll actually get some sway without being allowed to do anything stupid. At least their recent influence has been pretty positive - impressive considering how heavily scrutinized (and degraded) they are.
"You seem to think about this game a lot"
oldgregg
Profile Joined February 2011
New Zealand1176 Posts
November 25 2011 21:38 GMT
#166
On November 25 2011 21:27 apalemorning wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2011 17:01 oldgregg wrote:
Hone Harawera seems like the only sensible and honest politician out there imo

i didnt know taking taxpayers money to go on a vacation really counts as "honest".


they all do that, don't single out hone like the nz media like to do.

on a side note, I've voted; Mana, Labour for Electorate, and MMP, GO MANA!!!
Calculatedly addicted to Substance D for profit by drug terrorists
Distortion_nZ
Profile Joined October 2010
New Zealand41 Posts
November 25 2011 21:52 GMT
#167
I feel inclined to vote for the Conservitive party, I feel the combine the best of both National and Labour. As in they wont sell assests and do not want to borrow more money. Although the chances of them getting into parlement are not looking that flash.
apalemorning
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada509 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-26 02:15:03
November 26 2011 02:13 GMT
#168
On November 26 2011 06:38 oldgregg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2011 21:27 apalemorning wrote:
On November 25 2011 17:01 oldgregg wrote:
Hone Harawera seems like the only sensible and honest politician out there imo

i didnt know taking taxpayers money to go on a vacation really counts as "honest".


they all do that, don't single out hone like the nz media like to do.

on a side note, I've voted; Mana, Labour for Electorate, and MMP, GO MANA!!!

quote sources on all politicians go on vacations with tax paper money, quite the claim. and i bet even if they do, they aren't half as cocky as hone is about it.

"How many times in my lifetime am I going to get to Europe? So I thought, 'F*** it, I'm off. I'm off to Paris'' - Hone Harawira
immortal/roach is pretty good against stalkers
Avaek
Profile Joined June 2011
New Zealand49 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-26 02:25:56
November 26 2011 02:25 GMT
#169
On November 25 2011 21:44 Jehct wrote:
Except there are already too many university students & not enough tradesmen/other tertiary students in NZ.


Not sure where you live, but in the far north there is very little work for even experienced tradesmen. I know a lot of guys in their mid 20s who've been in various trades since leaving high school, and the majority of them are now working in Australia or leaving to work in Australia in coming months. It's a pretty rough time for everyone up here.

[Edit] I voted Greens, I would have voted ALCP but Gareth Hughes is the shit and we need more politicians like him.
Dirt McGirt
Profile Joined March 2011
New Zealand129 Posts
November 26 2011 02:39 GMT
#170
Labout are weaker than they've been in ages but made a bit of a rally in the last week or so. National appear to have the invoices already prepared for asset sales, mining and some god awful changes to our education system. Mana have a lot going for them but I just can't get past my dislike of the personalities (Hone, Minto, Bradford).

Green have been big movers with Labour flaking out. They've actually gone and developed policies outside of their primary areas (conservation, sustainability etc). They have my vote this time around.

I hope the door hits Peter Dunne's ass on the way out! That guy riles me up something chronic (and that's not a dig at his anti-drug position either). People have complained about MMP resulting in the tail wagging the dog... mainly in reference to 3-4 party supply and demand agreements (Labour, green, Maori and X/Y/Z depending on the vote). But Dunne is a single person who has had far more impact than he should have... imo of course. Of course his 'party' can promise you the earth, he knows he'll never have to deliver and no one will get on his case about a watered down version.

Education, Economy, Environment - that's what I was focusing on in terms of policy. But my vote is cast so time to sink some brews and see what happens. Whatever your political leanings make sure you Kiwi's VOTE!!!!
I control Michael Jackson
Jehct
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
New Zealand9115 Posts
November 26 2011 02:52 GMT
#171
On November 26 2011 11:25 Avaek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2011 21:44 Jehct wrote:
Except there are already too many university students & not enough tradesmen/other tertiary students in NZ.


Not sure where you live, but in the far north there is very little work for even experienced tradesmen. I know a lot of guys in their mid 20s who've been in various trades since leaving high school, and the majority of them are now working in Australia or leaving to work in Australia in coming months. It's a pretty rough time for everyone up here.

[Edit] I voted Greens, I would have voted ALCP but Gareth Hughes is the shit and we need more politicians like him.

My brother (experienced builder) lived in Taupo and was dry for work for a hella' long time (18 months of almost nothing). He planned to go to Aussie, went to Auckland to make a bit of money before he left and has been working nonstop (6 day working week) ever since. There are definitely labour shortages in NZ, they're just in specific places (ie. the cities). The problem is that people don't want to move, not that there's no work for tradesmen.

That, and you can make more money in Aus.
"You seem to think about this game a lot"
Lorken
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand804 Posts
November 26 2011 02:54 GMT
#172
I think the selling of NZ assets to foreign countries will definitely reduce the current debt so National can say they did something but it's going to fuck us over since our money will be going overseas.
LOUD NOISES!!!
FuRong
Profile Joined April 2010
New Zealand3089 Posts
November 26 2011 03:40 GMT
#173
Well, I voted. I have a sticker to prove it.
Don't hate the player, hate the game
Rodimus Prime
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
182 Posts
November 26 2011 16:29 GMT
#174
Special votes will separate Christchurch Central, after a dead heat in that electorate.

Both National's Nicky Wagner and Labour's Brendon Burns registered 10,493 votes.

Crazy like a daisy.
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